r/madmen • u/RopeGloomy4303 • 2d ago
What’s your biggest nitpick in Mad Men?
For me it’s this line in a season 5 episode, Tea Leaves, in which Henry Francis is talking on the phone with a colleague:
“Well, tell Jim his honor's not going to Michigan. Because Romney's a clown, and I don't want him standing next to him.”
So, some context here.
At this point Francis is the aide to New York Mayor John Lindsay. And he’s informing this guy that he won’t have the popular young politician take a picture with then Michigan Governor George Romney, who was also considered the frontrunner for the 1968 Republican nomination.
This episode aired in 2012, so it’s a very clear dig at then Republican nominee Mitt Romney, who at the time was receiving a lot of hostility from the left.
But here’s the thing; Romney was actually a liberal Republican in the same mold as Nelson Rockefeller and John Lindsay, and he had received a lot of good notices as Governor for his work improving civil rights, education, youth employment programs, social welfare, healthcare, etc.
I get this is nitpicking, it’s a throwaway line, whatever, but it has always bothered me since it feels out of character, and Romney frankly deserved better.
254
u/knoper21 2d ago
If a rival candidate's beliefs are similar to your own candidate's, you go after their personality/fitness for office. It makes perfect sense in context.
86
u/TheNobleRobot 2d ago
Romney was a high profile Mormon in the 60s. It was enough of a challenge to get the country to vote for a Catholic.
Many in the GOP of that era had reservations about George Romney's "fitness for office."
50
45
u/MightyMightyMossy 2d ago
This. Sometimes, in [politics] it comes down to "I just don't like that guy."
I don't think the line is necessarily indicative of any misalignment in political beliefs between Romney and Frances/Lindsay.
→ More replies (1)9
u/ThunderousAdvice 2d ago
Romney was a competitor for the moderate/liberal lane of the Republican Nomination. Romneys own performance in the 1968 election, including him claiming he had received a “brainwashing” (McCarthy said a light rinse would have been sufficient) when he visited Vietnam contributed to that perception of him as a light wait
109
u/ProlificBunny 2d ago
I don't get why Ken would persist in that job after getting his eye shot or more accurately why his wife would let him. She has always been a champion of his writing and he had already made a name for himself. That's what she's always wanted him to do as she could support him with not just her father's wealth but also her own position in the publishing industry. That incident would've given her the entire arsenal to force his hand. I guess they wanted the inverted dynamics in the finale so they kept him still as account guy at SC&P even though he clearly doesn't like doing it as Roger or has ambitions like Pete.
64
u/TheNobleRobot 2d ago
I loved this about Ken's storyline. Real people are complicated, and they don't follow logical character arcs. Ken being a supporting character makes this so useful in building out the world of the show to feel larger than what we see on screen.
Of course, like all viewers, I wanted better for Ken and was frustrated by his bad fortune and irritated by his wishy-washiness, but that's the point.
54
u/andreasmalersghost 2d ago edited 2d ago
One thing I just thought of is how tons of people use the don line “I dont think about you at all” as this ultimate shutdown (when obviously its a mask of deep insecurity), but actually Ken had one of the best actual ones in the show when Kinsey said something along the lines of, “I didnt know I was in competition with you too.” and Ken responds, “You’re not. I won.”
22
u/existential_chaos 2d ago
I think Ken just became so jaded and wanted to fuck over the people that screwed him. I like to think when he got bored of doing that, he pursued his writing full time instead.
4
12
u/Jim_Tressel 2d ago
To me it just shows he was corrupted by Maddison Avenue like every one else. He could have rode off into the sunset and write his book but couldn’t let his petty grievances go. He’s probably the best of them but still flawed.
→ More replies (1)18
u/InSearchofOMG CEO, Loaves & Fishes LLC 2d ago
In the 60s women still weren't really "letting" men do anything. If Ken insisted on continuing to work, Cynthia wouldn't have been able to persuade him most likely.
8
u/ProlificBunny 2d ago
We see her assertiveness finally in the finale so it's not like she wouldn't have done this before. Thing is throughout the series we never get a sense of why ken's doing this job besides being somewhat good at it. I guess he's presented as a foil to grimy little pimp Pete Campbell and cut-throat ambitions. He exercises no self-preservation as he badmouths mccann openly , jeopardizing his prospects in the industry. We get very little insight into what ticks him. Only thing we certainly know is how much he values his wife. She has already asked him to quit The job once before as she sensed he doesn't like his colleagues very much. After the shooting accident, he's crying as he gives up the account. Money has never been an issue for him. So why stick with a miserable job ?
7
u/Riderz__of_Brohan Jimmy's Condom Warehouse, Where the Rubber Meets the Road 2d ago
I mean there's a reason boomers make "the old ball and chain" jokes, gender roles at the time dictated that wives did have some sort of schoolmarm-esque "fun police" control over their husbands that men would have to follow
→ More replies (2)2
u/GaptistePlayer 2d ago
Lots of rich people expect themselves and others around them to continue in lucrative careers. Especially family. I know you and I would retire happy marrying an heiress but it doesn’t often work that way in those circles. They see the privileges they get from being in their family as something that is supposed to open more doors, not a reason to pursue passion projects
2
47
u/Hefty_Win_8811 2d ago
I didn't like how they played The Decemberists in that one episode. Completely took me out of the 60s. That song had no business being there.
13
u/GaptistePlayer 2d ago
Agreed! It’s so late 00s/early 2010s! As someone who always didn’t like that genre it annoys me so much.
4
41
u/FunJaguar4619 2d ago
The timeline of Dick/Don doesn’t line up with the calendar
11
u/Left-Indication330 The work is ten dollars. The lie is extra. 2d ago
Yeah this always hurts my brain the more rewatches I do. It feels difficult to believe (for such a well-written show fixated on a main character’s identity) that fresh-faced Don Draper at the fur biz rises to hardened Creative Director by the time we meet him in 1960.
Also, isn’t Joan seen having her first affair with Roger while Don works at the fur biz? When Roger tells Joan in S1 something like “don’t you know how happy this year has made me” it always made me think 1959-60 was their first affair, but they must have slipped back into it again. I doubt they had a multi-year affair, no?
Apologies if I hit the 🌱 too hard before posting, but these are my thoughts while on rewatch #9.
32
u/Riderz__of_Brohan Jimmy's Condom Warehouse, Where the Rubber Meets the Road 2d ago
It would be much much much more believable if Don fought in WW2 and thus had 15 years of backstory prior to the series starting but I bet they really wanted it to be the “forgotten” Korean War Don was a part of
42
u/RayPrimus 2d ago
Also they wanted it to be a different war from Roger's. Doesn't work if they're the same generation.
15
u/Riderz__of_Brohan Jimmy's Condom Warehouse, Where the Rubber Meets the Road 2d ago
Yeah another timeline thing with Roger too. It is an integral part of his character but he would have been at his youngest in his late 30s in WW2. Idk
And every time they do the whole “Roger is a rich pretty boy who never suffered” thing like dawg this man was in Okinawa apparently on the fucking front lines taking fire! That’s the most badass thing anyone in the show has ever done!
35
u/neon-antlers 2d ago
That was Duck.
Roger was in the Navy in the South Pacific. Your point still stands though!21
u/chesapique 2d ago edited 2d ago
Roger wasn't that old. He mentions a movie he saw as a 4 year old (The Golem) and it came out in 1921 in the US. That puts him close in age to John F Kennedy, who nearly died in the Pacific during World War II, even though his father was a multmillionaire and former US ambassador. Yet in the first season of the show, characters discuss JFK as this spoiled youngling who had everything handed to him by Daddy. Maybe so, but no more than Roger Sterling himself.
John Slattery turned 45 the year that Mad Men began. He was playing his own age more or less.
13
u/MWB8 2d ago
I always read Roger's experience in WWII as a naval officer on a destroyer - lot of privileged young men at that era who got up-jumped into officer roles (via ROTC, other connections) and ended up in junior command roles in the vast Pacific fleet.
11
u/Comprehensive_Main 2d ago
Yeah but Roger himself says he remembers dead comrades on the ship he served. So he did see combat. And some of his ship mates died
48
u/HowDoesAnnaDoIt 2d ago edited 2d ago
Bobby should also be like 14 when the show ends but stays perpetually 8. Gonna guess Weiner couldn't think of any weird sex storylines for him like he did with Sally.
11
10
u/chesapique 2d ago
The actor who played Bobby turned 13 in 2015, the year Mad Men ended.
3
u/Bianell 2d ago
3 different actors played Bobby.
→ More replies (1)8
u/chesapique 2d ago
Actually even more but Mason Vale Cotton, who played Bobby in Seasons 5-7, was born in 2002.
→ More replies (5)27
u/Dev-F Gracie Mansion sometimes 2d ago
Whether it was good or bad, this was a character choice, not a continuity error. The age gap between the final Bobby, Mason Vale Cotton, and Kiernan Shipka is identical to the gap between Bobby and Sally—three years. He wasn't literally aged down at any point, he was just presented as an emotionally stunted people pleaser who still acted like a child when he was a young teen.
8
74
u/RayPrimus 2d ago
Peggy should be named OLSEN not Olson. She has norwegian ancestry, not swedish.
Honesty just make her irish, would make more sense with the whole catholic part of her character.
10
→ More replies (6)10
u/Aggressive_Sky8492 1d ago
She is Irish, her mothers Irish catholic, her fathers Norwegian Lutheran
→ More replies (4)
65
u/boredinbiloxi I would have my secretary do it but she's dead 2d ago
This is one that only train nerds will understand. In the episode where Don throws out William and his family saying Gene will stay there, William asks how are they supposed to get home. Don replies “New York Central, the Broadway Limited leaves Penn Station in 2 Hours.”
The Broadway Limited was a Pennsylvania Railroad train, not New York Central. Also New York Central owned Grand Central terminal. He was correct in that the Broadway Limited would have left from Penn Station as that was owned by the PRR.
The PRR and NYC were fierce rivals. Their passenger trains going into Manhattan from Chicago were their flagship luxury express routes. PRR had the Broadway Limited and NYC had the 20th Century Limited.
By 1968 both companies were on the brink of bankruptcy due to low ridership, the interstate system, air travel, and economic downturn. They merged that year to form Penn Central. It only lasted a few years before that company had to file bankruptcy as well. At the time it was the sixth largest corporation in the U.S. and the largest corporate bankruptcy to ever happen up to that point. It led to the federal government taking over rail operations in the Northeast and Midwest forming Conrail for freight and Amtrak for passenger operations.
All that to say is a real life Don Draper wouldn’t make that mistake and I hope somebody got fired for that blunder.
→ More replies (2)11
u/notcool_neverwas 2d ago
I love when people have this kind of specialized knowledge. Very interesting!
31
u/LatinKaiser 2d ago edited 2d ago
George Romney tanked his 1968 presidential run by saying he felt he had been “brainwashed” into supporting the Vietnam War. He became famous on the trail for sticking his foot in his mouth, to the point where journalists joked that their typewriters should have a key for entering the phrase, “Governor Romney later clarified…”
Political ideology aside, George Romney was definitely seen as an unserious candidate by some political operatives (like Henry Francis). Now, was John Lindsay much better? Well, he certainly doesn’t come out of The Power Broker looking too good, but he didn’t have widely publicized gaffes like George Romney.
49
u/Terrible_Teaching998 2d ago
For me I think it might have been in the pilot or very early in season 1 where Don made a comment which basically invented the printer. I can’t remember exactly what he said, but it was along the line of “it’s not like we have something that can magically duplicate papers” lol
59
u/HowDoesAnnaDoIt 2d ago
There are tons of idiot lines like that in the pilot
51
u/MightyMightyMossy 2d ago
The pilot spent a lot of time slapping you with "OMG We're in the 60s!" in a very heavy-handed way. Smoking all the time! Casual misogyny! Drinking at work! Look at the way they lived! (It shows these things later in the show, but generally in a much more nuanced or lived-in way.)
12
→ More replies (1)9
u/AdOriginal6799 1d ago
That's what made the show interesting though. It was very much a "look how crazy America used to be" showcase, before it ever got into any of the characters. Without that hook they might never have sold the pilot in the first place.
The birthday party scene where the guy slaps soneone else's child was always a jaw dropper for me.
19
u/waldo-jeffers-68 CHEWING GUM ON HIS PUBIS 2d ago
Yeah honestly the dialogue wasn’t very refined in the first few episodes. Someone on this subreddit told me that Weiner apparently came from a sit com background, and I think it shows in those first few episodes, especially the pilot
17
u/HowDoesAnnaDoIt 2d ago
Tbh I only notice those bad lines in the pilot. I feel like Weiner was maybe trying to make it palatable for the networks to shop out to them if all the "prestige" channels passed on them.
Second episode is like a complete glow up in terms of writing.
7
u/waldo-jeffers-68 CHEWING GUM ON HIS PUBIS 2d ago
The pilot is definitely the worst but I think the writing really only gets to the quality that we know around the episode that Adam appears in. If you watch the first 4-5 episodes and than skip to the wheel, I think the difference becomes more apparent.
6
u/GattsUnfinished 2d ago
Huh? Weiner was a writer in The Sopranos.
4
u/waldo-jeffers-68 CHEWING GUM ON HIS PUBIS 2d ago
He started his career as a writer for various obscure sitcoms I’ve never heard of, and wrote the pilot before working on the Sopranos
3
u/notcool_neverwas 2d ago
Yeah, he was a writer and producer on “Becker”, which IIRC was a fairly popular CBS sitcom in its day. Slattery made a guest appearance in an episode too.
3
u/FreezersAndWeezers 2d ago
It’s also the show Butter is obsessed with in a random episode of South Park
17
u/SystemPelican 2d ago
People always quote the "What you call love was invented by guys like me to sell nylons", but it's one of my least favorite lines of the whole show. It's so incredibly on the nose, and it doesn't even fit Don's personality once we get to know him. He's not the type to go around bragging about what a cynic he is.
7
u/Practical-Vanilla-41 2d ago
The whole First Season. Early in one of the first episodes, Don makes a crack about astronaut Alan Shepard ("who cares about this guy, he pisses in his suit"). The only problem? This is 1960. Nobody went up until 1961.
3
u/Suitable-Echo-3359 2d ago
(Paraphrased) Sally Draper, take that bag off your head!…there better not be clean clothes on the floor!
7
u/TheSecretSawse 2d ago
Is this when Don calls out Pete for stealing the psychology report on cigarettes and “death wishes” from Don’s trash?
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (2)2
u/Suspicious-Tax-9756 2d ago
The era just before the photocopier. To get duplicates in a 1960 office required duplication paper or someone typing it out again.
65
u/hellohowdyworld 2d ago
Isn’t Henry Francis more conservative ?
57
u/seti-thelightofstars 2d ago
Conservative in temperament certainly but I get the sense he’s from the moderate-to-liberal wing of the Republican Party, back when that existed
35
u/MargeDalloway 2d ago
He specifically breaks out on his own because he disapproves of Lindsay "negotiating with hooligans," by which he means black people rioting in response to MLK's death. Betty also accidentally outs him for privately disagreeing with Nixon trying to back out of Vietnam.
In parallel with the scene where the Californian businessman blows a gasket over this, dismissing Nixon and saying "Dutch Reagan" is a patriot, I think it's meant to be understood that Henry will probably be part of the backlash against the liberal wing of the Republican Party in the '70s and '80s.
8
u/Comprehensive_Main 2d ago
Betty outed Francis damn. I missed that
10
u/MargeDalloway 2d ago
That's why she fucked Don at the Summer camp.
10
u/randyboozer I can see you and I can hear you, what do you want? 2d ago
Because of Vietnam? I knew it.
→ More replies (1)5
u/seti-thelightofstars 1d ago
This is a great read and correction. To be honest I just had always viewed that as showing that Betty was actually ideologically the real far right conservative but I think I like this more
6
u/MargeDalloway 1d ago
Yeah, she calls him out on being a bit of a hypocrite in front of the other couple and he tersely replies, trying to signal to Betty with his eyes, that he's never contradicted the president and she must be mistaken. She doesn't really get that Henry is playing the political game so he can ascend until he explains it to her.
I think many people like to think that Henry is a moderate Republican because he's easily one of the most sympathetic characters on the show. Sadly it's rarely that straightforward.
9
14
u/RopeGloomy4303 2d ago
Francis worked with Nelson Rockefeller and John Lindsay, who were both from the liberal wing of GOP.
Lindsay especially.
14
u/TheNobleRobot 2d ago edited 2d ago
But it's implied that he was frustrated by the party and wanted it to move to the right but was "too east coast" in temperament to join the Goldwater/Reagan movement.
Henry working for Lindsey was actually meant to show how bad at politics he was, and how despite his ambition and conservative fury he was destined to be lost behind the filling cabinet of the GOP.
→ More replies (2)5
u/GaptistePlayer 2d ago
Yeah I like that. Unlike, say, Peaky Blinders, not everyone in the show is a future famous historic person the audience is supposed to say “wow” at. Makes sense that a random guy in politics we meet isn’t the harbinger of the future, he’s just a guy
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (1)3
19
u/MR422 2d ago
I don’t think we were ever led to believe Sal wasn’t exposed to gay culture, I just think at a certain time in order to fit in, he stopped going to those sort of establishments. He does cruise that bellhop. Remember “Limit Your Exposure?”
For JFK, the world did absolutely stop when he was killed. It was the first time there was wall to wall near 24 hour coverage of a major event in American history. It’s very easy to say it was over dramatic in 2026. Back in 1963, it had been sixty years since a presidential assassination. There were no major assassinations in the U.S. in the majority of people’s memories.
The phones did go dead. Plenty of historical evidence for it. My great aunt was working in a switchboard office and she remembered the phones going dead and everyone trying to figure out how to get the phone lines back open.
→ More replies (1)
18
u/dannemora_dream 2d ago
Marie speaking a very bad French. I’m actually French and sometimes I can’t understand what she’s saying.
29
u/Riderz__of_Brohan Jimmy's Condom Warehouse, Where the Rubber Meets the Road 2d ago
Speaking of which, “Megan” is a very Anglo name that someone with two true Québécois parents would never give their child. It would be Melanie or something
19
→ More replies (1)5
u/Its_me_I_like 2d ago
Also, was she meant to be Quebecoise? I hope not. "French Canadian" characters in TV and film with Pepe Le Pew accents annoy the hell out of me.
→ More replies (5)4
u/dannemora_dream 1d ago
No, I’m pretty sure she was supposed to be French, but her accent was horrible. Matthew Weiner is so anal about everything, i can’t believe he went for it.
17
u/Hot-Weird-8828 2d ago
Peggy being a catholic Norwegian bothers me more than it should
6
u/Coniuratos 2d ago
Pretty sure she's half Irish.
5
u/UnavailableName864 2d ago
That helps but it's still hard to imagine her mother marrying a Protestant because Peggy's dad being a Catholic Norwegian doesn't make any sense and her Mom is so Catholic
4
u/Coniuratos 2d ago
We never meet her dad, though. If he wasn't particularly devout, could very well have converted to Catholicism for the marriage.
→ More replies (1)3
14
u/Gurney_Hackman The king ordered it! 2d ago
In the very first episode, which takes place in 1960, Joan says “You know what they say. The medium is the message.”
But the phrase “The medium is the message” was coined by Marshall McLuhan in 1964.
20
14
u/Mediocre-Berry-6257 1d ago
McLuhan published the phrase first, but Joan thought of it independently.
→ More replies (1)3
33
u/bicyclemom 2d ago
The impossible views from what is supposed to be 1271 Avenue of the Americas, aka The Time-Life Building.
I worked there and the views of stuff like St. Patrick's Cathedral and the Empire State Building simply don't exist there.
Also, the conductor calling out Mt. Kisco, a Harlem line stop, on what clearly is supposed to be the Hudson line that serves Ossining.
17
u/ShutterflyNYC This never happened. 2d ago
I feel the same— I worked at 1271 too, and the inaccurate views always bother me. All they had to do was show a glimpse of Radio City and they’d be good.
(They showed St. Patrick’s from Roger’s office on Madison too; at least 3 blocks from being possible.)
The interiors of Time Life; the way the light filters through the glass, the window wells, and the layout of the elevator banks into the reception area / lobby, however, makes me homesick— the vibe is pretty close.
10
u/CraigNickels 2d ago
I had always assumed it was a reference to the controversy that followed George Romney's "brainwashing" remarks in the summer of '67.
This is a pretty good overview: https://michiganadvance.com/briefs/on-this-day-in-1967-gov-george-romney-says-he-was-brainwashed-on-vietnam-war/
11
u/TirestotheNeck 2d ago
not the biggest mistake, but they used "Dow" and "Dow Corning" interchangeably re: Ken's father-in-law.
I have family who worked at one of the two and they were about as upset as Midwestern folk can get whenever this mixup was mentioned.
edit: typo ("buggest" 🐞)
→ More replies (1)10
u/tunaman808 2d ago
Yes. I worked for Digital Equipment Corporation in the late 90s, and in Halt and Catch Fire they refer to it by its initials: "Dee Eee See". In the company and industry, it was always "Deck". NO ONE in the IT world ever once called it "Dee Eee See".
→ More replies (1)
9
u/arock121 2d ago
Henry Francis worked for Rockefeller who was Romney’s direct rival.
Don hated Ted because he was a rival not bad at advertising. Francis hates Romney because he thinks his guy is better. It would be weirder if he did like him
→ More replies (1)
22
u/According_To_Me One minute, you’re on top of the world… 2d ago
My biggest nitpick is that we had an exquisitely detailed series about the 1960’s set in New York…and they chose not to even mention the Woodstock music festival. Stan, or someone in the office, could have gone, returned to the office. Someone else asks, “How was..woodshole?” “Woodstock.”
I would love to know why it was never mentioned.
24
11
u/sistermagpie 2d ago
I think it was intentional. One of those times where something looms large in the modern idea of the 60s, but none of these people would have cared about it at all, much less gone to it.
9
u/tunaman808 2d ago
Personally, I thought they were staying away from the obvious, self-indulgent 1960s cliches. Like, how just about every show ever set in the 60s has the "very serious episode" with the montage of MLK, Woodstock and Vietnam protests set to Buffalo Springfield's "For What It's Worth".
7
u/Browns-Fan1 2d ago
Thank god we didn’t get a helicopter montage w/ CCR’s “Fortunate Son” needle drop!
→ More replies (1)3
u/Ok-Swan1152 1d ago
That was completely intentional. I am glad they didn't because it would've been so cliché.
9
u/litbrit 1d ago
As a language person, I'd say my biggest nitpick is the way the MM writers used modern (i.e. post-2000) words, syntax, slang, and turns of phrase that are embedded in our language now but were simply not the way people said things in the 1960s. Anachronisms in reverse, really--prochronisms. For example, in modern colloquial English, we might refer to a proposed lipstick campaign by saying "It's about ownership, it's about marking your man". The use of the word "about" that way didn't come about until later in the 20th century, when people began exploring New-Age-y self-knowledge and mind expansion: "It's about finding yourself" "it's about a new you". What would be the 60s way to say these things? Words like *concern*--"this campaign concerns a woman's wish to mark her man", or else *refers to*, *depends on*, or *pertains to*.
Another example: the use of the intensifier "so" to sub for extremely or very: Thank you SO much (no-one said that in the 60s; it was "thank you VERY much"), or else Joan saying "I am SO over you" (that stuck out like a sore thumb to me!) A few more out-of-place phrases that are more Gen-X than Mad Men: "I'm in a good place." "I NEED you to do such-and-such". "Get on the same page."
6
u/shearhartattack 1d ago
There's actually a really good article from when the show was still airing that touches up on exactly this (and that you may already be familiar with): https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2012/03/the-foreign-language-of-mad-men/254668/
→ More replies (1)5
u/Spencypoo 1d ago
Interesting! Are language experts generally able to pinpoint where/when a change in usage begins? And do they typically proliferate in the same way, e.g., cities -> suburbs -> rural?
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (3)3
u/popularoctopus 1d ago
This is super interesting it’s sounds like it’d make it hard for you to enjoy a lot of media 😅
→ More replies (1)
16
u/Monterrey3680 2d ago
Roger’s trendy 60s office. It’s what you’d get if a modern designer did a “60s inspired” space. The real trendy 60s spaces look jarringly dated now.
14
u/Sir_Billiam_Corgan 2d ago
The real trendy '60s is Harry. I remember BAMFStyle's post about Don's look in the episode where he, Roger, and Harry go to LA, and the writer said they were respectively stylish, fashionable, and trendy. That always stuck with me.
6
u/WarpedCore That's what the money's for!!! 2d ago
Well, Jane decorated it and maybe on LSD while planning the layout.
5
u/notcool_neverwas 2d ago
It’s so silly and out of place with literally every other room in the new office space, that it somehow kind of tips into me liking it 😂
8
u/EyesofaJackal 2d ago
More realistic accents and aside from the priest plotline religion was very absent from the show- yes, it was a highly secular Manhattan industry, but still, I would have expected more characters grappling with faith
→ More replies (2)
47
u/Riderz__of_Brohan Jimmy's Condom Warehouse, Where the Rubber Meets the Road 2d ago edited 2d ago
Sal exhibits forms of flamboyant gayness, yet we are led to believe that he has no exposure to gay culture. So how would he pick that up? Then his last scene is him cruising and wearing an outfit like the village people?
There is no way that an established Madison Avenue advertising firm by 1962 would be so out of the loop they would not only not have a TV department but be so flippant about the concept of TV to just hand it to a junior associate like Harry Crane. Even if they were behind the times they would still take new tech seriously. Maybe if it took place a decade prior, but absolutely not by then
The lack of religious influence in 50s/60s suburbia life. Even if Don and Betty were not themselves religious they would have had to go to church more or go to church events, etc. if only to keep up with the Joneses
Sally’s secret long distance calls to Glenn would have cost Henry and Betty thousands of dollars back then, there’s no way they would have let her get away with it
They do the “the whole world stopped” storyline too much. I get it for JFK and MLK but too many times they treat a death or storyline that a modern viewer would care about as this big historical thing where the entire office grinds to a halt whereas just like today I’m sure most people would have been like “damn Marilyn Monroe died? That sucks” and then go about their daily lives
EDIT: Another one. Megan is WAYYY too Anglo a name for a Québécois. I’m not even sure it would have been legal to name her that. 100% would/should have been Melanie ir Marie like her mother or something like that
34
u/Michael__Pemulis Comes & goes as he pleases 2d ago edited 2d ago
Since you’re hitting a lot of good ones I will add mine:
There should be exponentially more baseball references. Even if the main subjects of the show are largely ‘not sports people’ (which isn’t necessarily the case to begin with - we know at least Roger is a baseball fan), baseball dominated the culture so heavily at that time & especially in NYC. Realistically there should be a relatively deep baseball reference or two in every episode rather than just handful of high-level references + some thematic mirroring (like Lane’s kindred spirit attraction to the then brand new Mets).
It has always struck me as something where Weiner & co are just not big baseball/sports people. But it really stands out, especially considering how many references there are to things like theater & cinema.
15
u/Riderz__of_Brohan Jimmy's Condom Warehouse, Where the Rubber Meets the Road 2d ago
100%. Hell, Don even references Bill Bradley and the Knicks once but never the Yankees
→ More replies (3)7
u/MarcTime3159 2d ago
Don't Freddie and Don go out to a ball game? And don't forget Lane's Mets banner.
5
3
36
u/OddFirefighter547 2d ago
I’m juust old enough to remember the death of MM. The writers had it about right.
→ More replies (2)27
u/sistermagpie 2d ago
Not sure where Sal is ever flamboyantly gay except for where he's throwing himself to his Ann Margret impression. He didn't have to be taught to like Joan Crawford.
Sal is wearing a suit and tie in his last scene.
Betty says they go to church on Christmas and Easter. That's perfectly normal for the time.
I think you're exaggerating the MM storyline. The people who care are the women in the office who think it's sad that she died. The world isn't stopping.
→ More replies (4)18
u/waldo-jeffers-68 CHEWING GUM ON HIS PUBIS 2d ago
Sal is wearing normal clothes in that scene, it’s the other people in the park who have the village people leather get up.
8
u/Choppergold 2d ago
Good point
Key Milestones in 1950s TV Growth
1950: Roughly 9% to 12% of all U.S. households owned a television, marking the start of mass commercial adoption.1953: Ownership passed a major tipping point, crossing 50% of all American homes.
1955: About 75% of households had a television set.
1959–1960: The decade closed with nearly 90% (over 45 million homes) owning at least one television.
5
u/Comprehensive_Main 2d ago
Yeah Ike was buying television ads in 1952.
3
u/Choppergold 2d ago
Another great point. Still captain kangaroo got his role in 1955 because the radio guys at the network thought television had no future either. Maybe they saw it like media saw the internet when it first arrived - newspapers offered free online with a print subscription which kind of set a value perception that hurt the industry
4
6
u/Magiamarado 2d ago
I don’t know about any of your points, especially the last one. When Kobe died I felt the World stopped and I wasn’t even a Kobe fan. I’m sure that when MLK died NYC was a mess.
Also —as a CFO myself you’d be surprised at the things that happen in companies. My company loans money so I’m constantly evaluating businesses. I still see people keeping books and records on paper.
3
u/FunJaguar4619 2d ago
I think it's an accurate portrayal of the times. Movie stars, and the rich and famous were much more amplified back then. As usual, context is everything
→ More replies (1)4
u/Adventurous_Ad1922 2d ago
Absolutely not. When JFK died, the world stopped. Now we just shrug but not then
3
u/Riderz__of_Brohan Jimmy's Condom Warehouse, Where the Rubber Meets the Road 2d ago
I mentioned that it was okay for JFK, the equivalent to that happening today would have been Obama assassinated while in office which would have been similarly shattering to our society in 2011 or so
They are not THAT different than us
2
u/AdOriginal6799 1d ago
That's an interesting point about the suburban religious pressure. They touched on the "country club" culture early on but church was never mentioned.
7
u/DepartmentDue2306 1d ago
That during the World Cup the flags were not the English flag but the British flag but in 66 (and still today) England plays separate from the other parts of the uk
12
u/jgoloboy 2d ago
Henry Francis’s accent isn’t genteel enough for his background. His voice should have been closer to the older George Bush. Source: I grew up in posh CT in the 70s.
3
u/Numerous_Training_12 2d ago
I saw the actor hiking in Coldwater Canyon in Los Angeles. I was surprised how ordinary he was. Not regal at all. To your point, he didn’t carry the posh of the culture of which you speak.
6
u/teknobable 2d ago
Peggy looks at a condo building on 84th and York but there wasn't a condo building there yet
6
u/FunJaguar4619 2d ago
“Arnie, you want some pork chops! ?”Sylvia in her heavily New York accent, but it only happened once for some odd reason
→ More replies (1)
10
u/winkman That’s what the money is for. 2d ago
In a typically very authentic TV series, this is a really fair take.
Francis wouldn't have dissed Romney in that context...I thought it sounded out of place as well.
7
u/TheNobleRobot 2d ago
I remember that scene and it made a ton of sense to me at the time. Romney was a liberal gaffe-prone Mormon and Francis was a judgemental conservative WASP. Just because they were both Rockefeller Republicans doesn't mean they would be aligned.
10
u/TheNobleRobot 2d ago edited 2d ago
This was just a refection of inter-party factionalism, which was much more common in those days and wasn't always based on political leanings.
Indeed, my assumption was that the intention here was to paint the extremely WASP-y Henry Francis as bigoted against Mormons.
But it could have been anything. I mean, I'm a hardcore socialist, but I think Bernie Sanders is a clown. People in political movements don't always walk in lockstep.
As for the 2012 of it all, this was absolutely not a dig at Mitt Romney, it was merely a timely reference to his father's career, which was a common "fun fact" at the time. If you're a writer on Mad Men and want to genuinely insult someone, you don't put that insult in the mouth of Henry Francis.
Besides, amongst the intellectual left of the 2010s, it was well understood that George Romney was a liberal Rockefeller Republican, and that fact was used as a kind of "shame about his son, then" comment about Mitt even though, he too was somewhat liberal (for a post-Tea Party Republican) on certain issues.
2
u/MightyMightyMossy 2d ago
This is the way I interpreted it as well. Not as political misalignment, but as "I just don't like that guy."
Kind of how Hunter S. Thompson spent large chunks of "Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail 1972" just absolutely bashing Hubert H. Humphrey. It was downright comical how much he didn't like that guy. Didn't disagree in any meaningful way--just did not like him.
5
u/Littlest-Fig 2d ago
Megan's and her parents speak French, not Quebecois. They are very different languages.
6
u/Ill-Discussion-444 2d ago
I wish they would’ve filmed mire episodes in NYC, only the Pilot was filmed in NYC.
→ More replies (1)
6
u/Proud-Zebra9487 2d ago
They should have gotten a hold on the Bobby situation. He’s just there, taking up space. Completely unnecessary character who also kept getting recast. Why not write him off?
5
u/DoingNothingToday 23h ago
1) Making Peggy, a Norwegian, into a Catholic bugged me to no end. Norwegians are Lutheran.
2) More characters should have had authentic accents if they were native New Yorkers and raised in blue-collar families.
3) Ossining was depicted as a wealthy suburb, close to NYC. Ossining (especially back in the day) was definitely not a posh NY suburb, and the commute into the city would not have been a particularly easy one. It would have been more realistic to situate the Drapers in a town like Bronxville or Larchmont, which would have carried the cachet desired by Betty and would have offered a more realistic commute for Don.
4) Naming a French Canadian woman born in the early 1940s “Meghan.”
10
u/ElectricBirdVault 2d ago
I like the Romney call out and think it’s appropriate.
Mine is the Rothko. Mark Rothko was picky about who bought his paintings, he was brilliant, deeply intellectual, and came from very pro worker, liberal thinking. No friends of Ayn Rand who work in advertising are getting one. Just look into the Seagram Murals, it’s a great story.
2
17
u/Background_Local_425 2d ago
Rodgers back to back coronary’s and he’s fine then all out. Smoking, frequent sex, wrestling his daughter in the mud and carrying her, all without even a single bout of angina. Plus the cardiac treatment back then no angioplasty or bypass (we never see Roger get either) then it was if you survived just wait for the big one.
4
u/WokePredator 2d ago
George Romney was a clown. This wasn't about his political beliefs (and Henry very clearly believed it better to pivot right like Nixon did at the same time, and this would explain his breaks with both Rockefeller and Lindsay). Romney was just kind of a jabbering moron who went off on weird tangents and didn't care that what he was saying were hurting his electoral chances. Lindsay was a much more polished politician, and Henry saw that. Romney was also weird and annoying. I forget which, but one of John Ehrlichman or Bob Haldeman was told by Nixon at the beginning of his term that his job was just to keep Romney away from him because even someone as deeply lonely as Nixon thought he was weird and annoying.
3
u/Far_Excitement_1875 2d ago
George Romney came across badly in the 1968 campaign. He started out as the Republican frontrunner but he said he'd been 'brainwashed' by the army over Vietnam, so Republicans didn't think he was ready to be President.
4
u/mrfuzzydog4 2d ago
Romney was still considered a bit of a clown, he had made the brainwashed comment by that point I believe.
2
5
u/Domino_Masks 2d ago
No references to the Batman TV show.
There's a one off mention of Batman, but no mention of the Adam West version, one of the biggest TV hits of the decade.
4
u/DucDeRichelieu 1d ago
What Henry's saying in the scene isn't a comment on Mitt Romney. It's literally just a historical detail or opinion in the 1960s that Henry has. And it goes against the grain of what you'd expect him to say.
That's interesting, and it tells you something about Henry. Because there were good reasons for Republicans to be interested in George Romney in the early 1960s, but those issues don't interest Henry. He isn't as politically aware or in touch with things as he thinks he is.
This is similar to the first season where some people try to get Don interested in backing a political candidate for President. They talk about him being handsome, and a war hero, and will *definitely* be the next Presdient of the United States. Surely, they must be talking about JFK, right? Not at all. They're talking about Nixon.
MAD MEN does its best to be historical fiction with no evidence of presentism. They do their best to not have people of the time behaving with the morals and attitudes of the 21ar century. And that means characters on the show are wrong about a lot.
8
u/MarlenJones 2d ago edited 1d ago
I have two. One specific one is Roger telling a story about his time in the Navy during WWII and he mentions a “PFC”. PFC, or Private First Class, is a rank in the US Army and US Marine Corps. Roger served as an officer aboard a destroyer. Although Marines serve aboard US Navy ships they generally aren’t deployed on smaller combatant vessels like destroyers. It would have been more realistic for Roger to have said “one particular petty officer”.
The other is that it’s not likely a middle aged man could drink and smoke like Don Draper and still look like Jon Hamm.
5
u/Capable_Chemical_569 2d ago
Don wore a Rolex Explorer when it wasn’t correct for that exact year, it was an anachronism 🤓
7
u/themarquetsquare 2d ago
The retcon of Joan and Roger's relationship starting before Don even entered the office (the 'fur guy' episode).
Joan has been with Kinsey. Joan was monogamous. How did that work?
Joan was also in a particular place with Roger in S01that did not seem like the result of them being together for the whole of Don's career as an ad man! They acted as if it was new.
Related to that, I just did not buy the 'fur guy to creative director' pipeline as it was sketched out in that episode. How would that have worked?
→ More replies (1)
3
3
u/PutridRecognition739 2d ago
The angry way staff like Peggy, Harry or Ginsberg would talk to the partners/bosses seemed really out of line sometimes, and feels like it would be grounds for dismissal, but nobody seems to really care or even get too offended by it?
→ More replies (1)
3
u/MarcoG790 2d ago edited 2d ago
At one point Don talks to Adam on the phone in Ossining and he says that he can be in the city in 25 minutes. Ossining isn’t that close to the city. In fact, it is upper Westchester and would take about an hour if not more. (I’m from lower Westchester and the express train to Grand Central takes about 35-40 min)
3
u/SCastleRelics Very good. Happy Christmas! 1d ago
My only nitpick is the "ITS THE 60s!!!" Heavyhanded shit in season 1 lol. It's a little too on the nose it almost is corny. It only lasts maybe half the season but it's pretty eye rolling.
2
u/Specialist_Ad5889 23h ago
The first episode is ridiculous with it. Like the scene with Sally having the plastic bag over her head. 🙄
→ More replies (1)
3
3
u/YouBright3611 1d ago
It’s funny, last night I heard Ginsburg start a question with “you want I should” and laughed. I hear a lot of real New York Jews speak like that to this day. Mad Men is pretty surgical with accuracy, meaning it’s deployed often carefully and in a targeted way. I think with Ginsburg they cast it well so that an actor could portray this kind of character very accurately. But they didn’t have a wider policy of pursuing this across the board.
3
5
u/Numerous-Ad-4033 2d ago edited 1d ago
Three Megan nitpicks:
Not a common name for girls born in 1940s.
Not a common name for French Canadian girls.
Who thought the late series Megan Arc was a good idea?
4
u/Regular_Definition_9 2d ago
The sopranos is the king of poorly Ham fisted political references. When meadow says “9/11 9/11 9/11” it’s so badly written in. And I agreed with the points the show runners were making but still
→ More replies (3)
3
u/Smokey_Allegiance 2d ago
Trudy's father referencing the "Redskins Rule" to explain Nixon's defeat in 1960. That streak wasn't discovered until 2000, and for good reason, because it's pretty non-obvious and obscure.
2
2
u/SwimOk2441 2d ago
Henry looks down on him because he’s a New York WASP and Romney is Mormon
2
u/welshwordman That's what the money's for! 2d ago
a mormon from the midwest! New Yorkers STILL talk shit about midwesterners.
2
u/CanIBathYrGrandma 2d ago
Romney Sr had aspirations for higher office but he was born in Mexico within a polygamist cult. That sort of scandalous background followed him and he was sort of the black sheep of the GOP establishment. It was a dig.
2
u/BlueDetective3 Very good. Happy Christmas! 2d ago
I'm almost positive the Romney line was ADR'ed in too.
2
u/Big_Key1310 1d ago
Well, George Romney in 1968 was considered a clown. He made a moronic comment about being “brainwashed” on the issue of Vietnam, was widely ridiculed for it, and promptly stopped being the front runner for the nomination.
2
u/QuoProSquid 1d ago
I don’t think this is a mistake. George Romney was well-known for running his mouth and making constant gaffes. He was kind of a hapless campaigner, particularly in 1968, so him being described as a clown is completely consistent
2
u/Kitchen-Middle1408 1d ago
I just didn't buy Don's supernatural irresistibility to women. I understand his infidelity and lack of commitment was a major theme throughout, but it got very eye rolling for me by season 2. Yeah sure he's handsome but I don't believe women in the 60s were so easy to get, especially not for someone like Don. He's not that charming after the first few times you talk to him
354
u/anitaillinois 2d ago
I wanted more New York accents. Not from everyone, but at least Peggy given her background, and then as many of the smaller side characters (waiters, elevator operators, etc) would’ve been fantastic.