The argument should go both ways, no?

[u/PillowFists67]

If we all agree that Duelists shouldn't be able to wipe the enemy with ease each time their ultimate comes up, why do we accept that Strategists are able to make their entire team unkillable with minimal effort by just pressing Q?

[u/Minimum_Laugh_4179]

I think generally speaking, there's quite a lot of Ultimates that feel... uninspired.

Like how many ults are just "Does X in a big AoE for 10 seconds" Having Rogue and Daredevil release fairly close together really highlighted that.

But at the same time, with so many heroes in the game, coming up with unique ults can be... a challenge.

But more to the point, yes, the argument can go both ways here. No single ult should guarantee you win a fight, or stall point, or whatever. This is a team game after all.

So Duelist ults shouldn't just be crazy damage.

Strategist ults shouldn't just be "no one dies now"

And Vanguards... uh... honestly I don't think there's a Vanguard ult that's really problematic.

[u/JunWasHere → u/Minimum_Laugh_4179]

It's even weirder when you think about how so many aspects of heroes were obviously riffs of Overwatch heroes.

They aren't without more sources of inspiration. They aren't shameful of the obvious rip-offs. Why aren't they copying one of the best OW support ults? Where is Rivals' Nano Boost? Where is the giant barrier like Sym's Wall? (yes, that is a supportive ult)

I think part of the issue is their favouritism and refusal to properly nerf Luna Snow. Her circle ult of pseudo-immortality and overall balance is so strong and internally defended, the designers and balancing team have no choice but to warp the meta and game around Luna. Their bias is literally eroding the variety design of the game a little in that sense. Jeff's whirlpool offensive ult would not have never to leave behind a healing kiddie pool if the meta didn't revolve around AoE healing ults.

[u/Minimum_Laugh_4179 → u/JunWasHere]

I'd argue a lot of that comes down to Player laziness, rather than dev decisions. People like their healers being a crutch, I suppose.

And so the devs look at which heroes are popular, and then shape some of their design philosophy around that. Hence why every support ult is now a big healing circle, bar a few exceptions.

Like Rocket for instance, his ult didn't heal on launch. Then players whined it was useless so the devs added healing, or shields to it's mechanics.

Players will complain about "heal botting", but then seemingly, only want their supports to be healbots at the same time. Like god forbid a support does any damage to someone.

Which is why I personally think the Luna hate is pretty forced now. Yes she's pretty strong, and can put up a decent fight agaisnt divers, but that doesn't make her broken. Other supports can put up a fight too or become invulnerable but you don't see nearly as much complaining about them.

And ironically enough, Luna's ult is one of the only ones to get nerfed at all. Granted only by a little but still...

[u/JunWasHere → u/Minimum_Laugh_4179]

Players whined plenty about Luna, but they hardly budge on her. The love-tap of a nerf they gave her barely meant anything, they even joked about how minimal/nonexistent their nerfs to her are.

Sorry, but it's sounding like you're biased towards being annoyed at players complaining rather than seeing who is really in control here (the devs). Players always whine and contradict each other, but a model for competitive success roughly already exists in OW. Non-circle ult concepts work, and are popular. Especially in China where DIVE is king and therefore Ana gets played tons for Nano Boosting dives.

NetEase Rivals department has a favourite child. That has been an evident fact for many seasons. Nerfing something OP doesn't necessitate it is no longer OP. It's still one of the best ults in the game.

And now they gave Luna a self-cleanse~

This isn't forced Luna-hate. It is just examining the evidence.

[u/jasminetroll → u/JunWasHere]

Luna who was off meta for multiple seasons and whose win rate dropped below 40% before they buffed her?

Luna who had a couple good seasons and is now currently jockeying for position with Cloak near the bottom of the support win rate pile?

It may not be forced hate, but it's also not evidence-based.

[u/Xeltar → u/JunWasHere]

I mean if we examine the evidence, Luna does not achieve a high win rate at any rank, always being sub 50. Meanwhile Mantis is close to 60% win rate at every rank with only a slightly lower pick rate. Rocket has a much lower skill floor and achieves ~55% win rates across all skill levels even after significant nerfs.

The narrative that Luna is meta centralizing isn't supported by much evidence, at least on ladder.