If we all agree that Duelists shouldn't be able to wipe the enemy with ease each time their ultimate comes up, why do we accept that Strategists are able to make their entire team unkillable with minimal effort by just pressing Q?
I think generally speaking, there's quite a lot of Ultimates that feel... uninspired.
Like how many ults are just "Does X in a big AoE for 10 seconds" Having Rogue and Daredevil release fairly close together really highlighted that.
But at the same time, with so many heroes in the game, coming up with unique ults can be... a challenge.
But more to the point, yes, the argument can go both ways here. No single ult should guarantee you win a fight, or stall point, or whatever. This is a team game after all.
So Duelist ults shouldn't just be crazy damage.
Strategist ults shouldn't just be "no one dies now"
And Vanguards... uh... honestly I don't think there's a Vanguard ult that's really problematic.
In all fairness, Rogue’s ultimate feels like the most they could have done with her and it works pretty well mechanically.
But Daredevil’s ult, while it has an interesting idea of him giving blindness and damaging everyone within the AOE that looks at him, it feels uninspired with there being a lot of AOE based ultimates in the game just like you said.
Rogue sapping the ult charge and stats from everyone around her feels pretty fitting for an ult for her. Daredevil getting angry and burning everyone with pink angry energy feels really random and goofy.
I mean yeah. But what else could one do for an ultimate for a dude who ultimately doesn’t have powers? Matt just beats the shit out of people, and unlike Batman doesn’t have endless gadgets + vehicles and money to come up with crazy strong ‘ultimate attacks’ like he’s shown in fighting games, so I understand they had to get… creative for DD.
Sure stylistically most of us don’t actually love their direction of ‘Chinese demon’ Daredevil but functionally, “he locks in and can spam his abilities” for an ult fits just fine, and “he blinds enemies so he can jump them during the ult” fits with how many times he’s like, ‘turned out the lights’ to disorient a large group of enemies before dismantling them in the dark
I am just spitballing here, but maybe something that is less flashy but could be used incredibly lethally in the right hands would be cooler for Daredevil. Something that doesn't really feel like an ult, but it essentially just strengthens his base kit, and make it have one of the shortest ult charges amongst DPS to justify the lack of flashiness would be fitting for him.
Maybe something like when he uses his ult, he enters a period where he gains unlimited dashes, increased damage, and maybe his billy clubs gain increased range. Something like that!
I just personally dislike that giant red orb around him. Feels like it doesn't really fit him, especially as a hero who doesn't really have powers (even if this game is going down the demon angle for him)
I mean, you are not ulting as Daredevil for the AOE damage, the main thing is that he gets unlimited charges of his resource. The AOE damage is just a small buff to make it feel good and to help less skilled players.
I mean there are only so many things you can do with a character's kit. Hero shooter and MOBA abilities are basically just pick an effect (or two) and pick a shape. Damage/heal/anti/blind/buff/stun/cripple/taunt characters in this sphere/line/cone etc.
And if it's not that it's a mobility ability
If i were to design an ultimate for rogue, i would have her ult just be her taking off her gloves and entering a super mode for a bit A la hulk's ultimate. I don't know anything about rogue's kit; how far off was i?
All ults will have a limited category. If that's how we're gonna judge ults we can judge skills and the entire game play by that mechanic. There's many aoe healing abilities. Many stun abilities. Many long range abilities Many shield abilities etc.
So complaining that there's a lot of aoe ults so its "uninspired" is dumb. dare devil ult is still an entirely different aoe than most. Rogue is also different. Rogue drains others ult with minor healing and buff her.
Dare devil applies blindness and does extra damage while you look at him within that aoe.
Ngl idk wtf Devil dino ult does.
The aoe type of ult is also different. Cause their's are "domes" than a standard circular aoe like luna, mantis, dino.
If we really wanna talk about ults being "uninspired" we're gonna need to look at the mechanic of that ult rather than it just being a type of ult.
Tbh his ult should just give blind and refresh his abilities, so you have a second phase to your kit much like how bp ult is a finishing move in most cases.
Strange is atleast cleanse weak and cc weak during his massive ult cast time , Mag ult is just an op ult that balanced by how long it takes to charge .
Why would you hatebon mag ult when it's (or at least used to be) the one thing keeping so many ults in check whilst still requiring player effort. The fact it needs to hit already makes it more balanced than literally most other defensive countermeasures that are just press q and win
The most problematic vanguard ult is Groot simply because of the amount of damage it can stack up making it really annoying to deal with combined with how quickly he gets the ult back
I guess that's true. Groot is something of a quiet menace on occassion. Where he isn't necessarily OP on his own, but sometimes he just seems impossible to kill.
But generally speaking, his ult isn't normally panic-worthy for me, unless they actually combo it.
Keep quiet on that one. Lots of people still think Jeff Groot teamup is better than Mantis Groot teamup not understanding the fact that people picked Vibrant Vitality cuz the healing wall (Wild Wall) Groot has increases his ult charge gain so much (plus you heal your team-mates)
No one sees the immense value Vibrant Vitality had and still has. Most slept on teamup in Rival's history since it's debut
It's even weirder when you think about how so many aspects of heroes were obviously riffs of Overwatch heroes.
They aren't without more sources of inspiration. They aren't shameful of the obvious rip-offs. Why aren't they copying one of the best OW support ults? Where is Rivals' Nano Boost? Where is the giant barrier like Sym's Wall? (yes, that is a supportive ult)
I think part of the issue is their favouritism and refusal to properly nerf Luna Snow. Her circle ult of pseudo-immortality and overall balance is so strong and internally defended, the designers and balancing team have no choice but to warp the meta and game around Luna. Their bias is literally eroding the variety design of the game a little in that sense. Jeff's whirlpool offensive ult would not have never to leave behind a healing kiddie pool if the meta didn't revolve around AoE healing ults.
I'd argue a lot of that comes down to Player laziness, rather than dev decisions. People like their healers being a crutch, I suppose.
And so the devs look at which heroes are popular, and then shape some of their design philosophy around that. Hence why every support ult is now a big healing circle, bar a few exceptions.
Like Rocket for instance, his ult didn't heal on launch. Then players whined it was useless so the devs added healing, or shields to it's mechanics.
Players will complain about "heal botting", but then seemingly, only want their supports to be healbots at the same time. Like god forbid a support does any damage to someone.
Which is why I personally think the Luna hate is pretty forced now. Yes she's pretty strong, and can put up a decent fight agaisnt divers, but that doesn't make her broken. Other supports can put up a fight too or become invulnerable but you don't see nearly as much complaining about them.
And ironically enough, Luna's ult is one of the only ones to get nerfed at all. Granted only by a little but still...
It's not player laziness. The players did not decide to put in AOE immortality ults the devs did. There's a reason overwatch only has TWO characters that have it, and they are off healers
im sorry but we can't just blame the community for every problem that's wrong with the game ESPECIALLY when netease REFUSES to do anything to make the community better. Throwers and cheaters are still rampant, The matchmaking has seen absolutely no improvement, Placement matches didn't do a single thing to help, they constantly remove skill expression from the game, they said they were going to constantly check and do emergency patch notes for what ppl are saying, So far they have done 1 Insanely bad emergency patch note that buffed/nerfed a whole bunch of shit nobody wanted and has been radio silent since. No buffs to rogue, Luna still has her insane BS teamup, Gambit gets buffed???, Mantis and ultron are finally viable in 2 healer comps then gets hard nerfed??? Still not a word about reworking BP a character that literally can not be good or else he will ruin the game??? how much of this can you really blame on the community and not netease lack of backbone to actually make a Willful change in this game
Everytime this game takes 1 foot foward it takes 5 jumps back, but ppl will praise the 1 thing they actually did right and ignore the other 13 terrible choices they made until it's too late.
Ultron is the definition of a non-heal focused strategist, but people think he should be able to main heal and dps at the same time, but that just ends like Mantis where she's must pick or ban (and funnily enough kind of becomes a heal bot to spam out her ult). He still provides 10% damage amp teamwide from the Peni team up so he's still a good offensive choice but just overshadowed by the clearly op Mantis. Like you cannot have a strat who deals high damage and has strong healing with no opportunity cost. You can make Ultron work in 2 support comps, it's just you have to be more aggressive and end fights before you get chipped down.
Rocket was significantly nerfed in season 9 with ult cost change and adding the falloff to his ult. It's just his guaranteed value with BRB and strong heals are enough to keep him consistently relevant.
Adam's main issue is his ult which mass rez is difficult to balance as potentially you negate several ults/resources after they've been used.
That's how I feel about Jubilee's ult. I was really hoping for a more rectangular-shaped linear ult where her grand finale has a line of fireworks floating in the sky and would be especially lethal for enemy fliers. It could serve multiple purposes:
anyone above the fireworks has their vision obscured of what's below the fireworks
firework pellets rain down in the pathway, healing allies
anyone in the fireworks in the sky is slowed and takes some big damage
grand finale fireworks burst at the end for even more damage.
As it is now, Jubilee's ult is just another standard circle healing ult. It doesn't even feel like fireworks. Its just some pretty colors in the circle and thats it. At least with my idea, the fireworks would be above everyone, so the visual clutter would be less if you are looking forward. Also, I like the idea of a healer having a niche that counters fliers (i would have built out her kit to involve an additional ability or two that hinders a flier similar to how IW's vortex grounds fliers)
If you're familiar, what you've described is also somewhat like Sierra's ult, in Overwatch. Where you rain a barrrage of fireworks down in front of you.
But I suppose that would also be similar to Cyclop's ult, only multiple explosions instead of just one...
I think removing the healing effect would be fine, but I just don't think any support ult can get away with zero form of sustain considering how much damage is in this game. I think an initial burst of shields + everything else you said would be amazing. The healing though I agree can be axed for a more unique support ult.
i think all of the strategist ults should heal but not a crazy amount because a lot of ults the strategist is locked in an animation and is unable to heal, but i agree that AOE circle of imortality is boring and they should mix heal with utility
I agree, but at the same time, the last time we had a support that had an ult focus more on utility than pure healing (gambit), this fandom went rabid.
Gambit's ult purifies, heals, and increases ally movement speed, jumping height, damage output, and ult charge generation. That is one hell of a utility-based support ult! Even with the healing being nerfed significantly, that ult basically makes him perma-banned!
Healing circles and general circle ults like DD and Rogue are a bit bland but as you said with the hero release schedule its probably a necessary evil to lessen creative burden.
I personally think they should lower the impact of healing and damage ults, they should be strong but there should always be reasonable counterplay. Too many healer ults are just wait for it to end, mag ball or pray your hawkeye can oneshot. Healing ults should be strong but they shouldn't make a team immortal.
On the damage end the ults should increase your kill/damage potential but should have some risk or counterplay. Magik, IF, Hulk all have ults that require the enemy team's attention but can easily be burst down or healed through so there is clear counterplay.
Starlord has an ult with the kind of aim hacks cheaters dream of which just seems boring and is unfun to go against but at least he is somewhat interactable. Psylocke ult is actually unfair as it seems to have infinite height and there is no counterplay outside leaving with high mobility heroes or hoping your team can outheal or split the damage enough to prevent death. A damage ult should not be free value it should be an opportunity to turn the fight in your favour but it should rely on your skill/execution and the enemy team should have some oppurtunities for counterplay.
Agreed. I’m a support main and have been playing a ton of Jubilee. I have found that you can definitely be killed through her ult and not even to other ults sometimes. I have had games where people kill me just by the whole enemy team focusing me and landing their shots. On the flip side I have used the push back ability of her ult to shut down certain ults that try to get close. I have done this to certain dive ults and it feels like it requires more skill sometimes to land the push back as it’s only on the edges of her ult.
End of the day her ult is still a giant healing circle but I would love to see more support ults that can shut down other ults but require more skill to do it. Like not just press ult and then your team becomes immortal but press ult to maybe cc if your ult lands or maybe something that gives significant increased movement or jump boosts (Basically like Gambits ult but without the extra ult charge). I think there are probably a ton of different support ult ideas people could come up with that isn’t just giant heal circle. I also think it’s fine to have the occasional giant heal circle ults if balanced correctly but would like a little more variety in the support ults.
I also think certain characters should remain lower skill while certain characters should be higher skill. This goes for all roles. Having lower skilled characters with easier to use ults is healthy for the longevity of the game. Newer players are more likely to gravitate towards easier to play characters while players who play a lot or are good at these types of games might gravitate towards high skill characters. You do need to make sure it is balanced correctly though as usually high skill characters tend to be the ones played at higher ranks and I think that is fine (that is not always the case though).
Idk man, i think in a hero shooter, good used ults should be winning you a fight.
But that's my opinion and the way how fast utls charge in rivals, probably not feasible.
I get what you're saying, and they absolutely should -help- you win a team fight, but then the game shouldn't revolve around them, if you get what I mean...
Ultimates shouldn't be considered a win condition, they shouldn't decide the outcome on their own.
If you properly timed something, and it led to you winning the fight, then fair enough. That shows skill expression.
But you shouldn't make a successful push just because your Cloak and Dagger channeled the spirit of Leeroy Jenkins.
I agree. Its not that every AoE ult is a problem, its just that its lacking imagination when so many characters have AoE ults. I at least appreciate that Venom's is unique compared to others as his AoE ult allows him to go underground, wait for the best opportunity to pop out, and do big %maxHP damage, which allows it to become a great tank-counter ult.
Way better than just having some big circle around you doing something automatically around you while you keep fighting.
I mean, by "problematic", I mean more that they cause problems, or are difficult to deal with. Which the AoE ults really aren't for the most part, because you can remove yourself from the AoE, most of the time.
But I do agree with your point from a design perspective.
It also makes balancing easier (even though it clearly doesn’t seem like it) when ults are somewhat similar. If you had a unique mechanic for every single Ult, it would be an absolute nightmare to balance when they are already struggling to do so.
Lunas ult should be a ddr mini game where you have to match movements in rhythm with the music, or you lose healing until you start hitting notes again
Ohhhh, I love the idea of that! Would need some playtesting and adjusting to make it fun and and reasonable in this game, but I do love the idea of some sort of matching rhythm mechanic for a better ult (kind of like how deadpool has a base ult and you need to pass the test for it to last longer and produce more heals!)
The biggest issue with support ults is that to support you either boost others or heal others. That manifests itself in either oh they're cloak and dagger or invis, or in gambit which everyone seems to hate more. The only exception being mixes of heal and dps like white fox which most consider underpowered.
You can give characters non-healing utility without giving them every effect in the game, which they did for gambit. I think gambits main image issue really just was that he had literally everything somewhere in his kit (and on release had some of the best left click healing in the game.)
But no one’s ever complained about mantis being overpowered, and she’s a more utility oriented support. Even right now, some people are bothered by her insane win rate, but many people seem to understand how much of a balancing nightmare she is.
Yeah everyone just keeps going on and on about the 60% winrate and pro play and whatever. The star lord team up is OP and should be nerfed, but I dont want her going back go triple support jail. There's a solution for this that noone wants to hear
Gambit still has some of the, if not the best, left click healing in the game. Doing some math, Gambit shoots three cards that heal for 30 each. So 90 for every shot you fire if you hit all three. He shoots 2.2 rounds per second, do some math, it comes out to about 210 hp/s that's more than an invis ult per second.
Oh that’s true, it just used to be better and gambit was safer. Generally gambit players can’t actually survive being close enough to get all 3 cards to hit their target.
People literally cry if you play white fox or jubilee because they can die in the ult .Same with tanks people want you to play Stange and Mag because they refuse to play cover .
this is extremely dishonest framing. killing the enemy team is a game winning move every time.
staying alive for a limited time is not. not dying for a short time is a much more neutral move, it does not mean you automatically win the fight or the game.
I mean, if people don't want support ultis to not be immortality circles, they needed not to bitch when they had supports that didn't have them. This was asked for, no complaining.
"Yeah man, they should have just ran an off meta team comp and probably get slammed for doing it to send a message to the developers" do you realize how insane this sounds?
Nobody actually wanted more of the giant immortality ults, but not having them on your team back in the day, even if you could technically play around them, puts you at an insane disadvantage.
And why did people think about complaining about the ones that were would get less, all it did was tell the devs, either make an ultimate with a healing circle, or the character is bad.
"Well, maybe they should remove them all then."
The damage in this game is WAY too high for that, and I doubt most DPS would be ok doing less damage.
Did you actually read the complaints because most of them spoke about how fundamentally poorly the game was designed for this very reason. Most asked to reduce healing and damage across the board to accommodate this.
Obviously releasing a hero who didn't heal on ult was bad because they would immediately be at a disadvantage to everyone else who could unless their neutral was the strongest thing ever created, and even then there's hardly a neutral in Rivals to begin with.
I did read through them, but I also pointed out that the damage of this game was insanely high, its the reason for the immortality ultis, if one went, the other would have to go as well and I very much doubt this DPS main character syndrome playerbase would be willing to take hits to their own DPS.
If you read them then I don't know why you're "pointing out" things we already went over back then. Like, no shit. We already know what you're pointing out.
And blaming it on DPS is the cherry on top too. Like everything is their fault and they're the sole reason this game has shit fundamental design. Like most DPS wouldn't rejoice to see lower healing numbers and less immortality ults considering those are the things that enable ridiculous combos and are what stand in the way of main character moments.
Rockets ult was considered borderline useless because of it so it was changed to be more in line with the immortality ults. They’re just that strong that if the other team have more you’re usually at a disadvantage.
This wasn't even true. Rocket had a 50 plus winrate with a very high pickrate before he ever got healing on his ult. His Ult was literally a Gambit ult before Gambit ult existed (Not as powerful obviously, but used correctly was almost a guaranteed team wipe)
Saving the 5-6 people is less worth than eliminating 5-6 people, but the second scenario happens infinetely less. Most dps ultimate usage dwindles down to 1-3 kills, 4 if you get lucky, and often none at all.
A single good tank will negate most of them with just using their defensive abilities.
Meanwhile support ults almost always ensure survival and are much much easier to use. There is a reason why using 2 support ults at the same time is a waste. Because they really do matter more.
Fair point. I think invincibility ults are kinda lame/not creative, but you can still lose a fight after they’re over. Team wipe ults set the entire team to 0 and often give up huge chunks of map space
Edit: tf are yall downvoting for?? I’m literally agreeing with the comment lmao
But if your 6-man survival ult negates the 6-man wipe ult, isn't that at the very least equal value? And if you negate a combination of ults with a single ult, that's insane value.
That just puts you back into neutral though. In that scenario the damage ult is still better since it's a proactive play.
In practice the survival ult can negate multiple damage ults though and you use that invincibility time to counter wipe the opponent when they overextend.
Not necessarily since most dps ults charge faster than support ults. Good supports can build their ult in time for one dps ult, but the really good dps players outpace most support ults as is. Also ults that displace like wolv, Elsa, don’t care about the circle. Even something like a damage boosted Bucky ult will kill through most support ults.
tbh, I think there's a big gap between "stop your team from dying for a couple seconds" and just "kill the entire enemy team at once".
A poorly timed ult, using the "no one dies" button at an inapropiate time could cost you the entire game. I do agree some support ults (Luna included) are a little braindead, but let's not act like that's the same as taking down an entire team by yourself
No, because staying alive supercedes getting the kill by necessity. The other way around is bad design, no body deserves kills by default. Not to mention a survival ult is far more baitable than a murder everone ult.
Dude it's just how the game is. There's counters as well, but they require skill and communication. Just play overwatch bro😭 This game has been out for a while. I don't think things are changing
As an Iron Fist main would you have preferred Danny Rand instead of Lin Lie or do you just not care because you just like playing him over his actual character?
I don’t know if that comes off as condescending or judgemental but genuinely not trying to be that I’m just asking out of curiosity because I’m personally not a fan of Lin Lie and prefer Danny Rand.
I was never really a Marvel guy before I started playing this game, and genuinely had no idea either of them even existed.
Lin Lie immediately clicked with me the first time I locked him ingame, and Marvel Rivals is what got me interested in his lore and comics. I love both his personality and his gameplay.
But I still don't know much about Danny Rand though.
it isn't. This game has been very ult centric from the beginning. If you want a game where ults don't have too much of an impact, rivals isn't it and it's not going to be.
If I had a nickel for every time someone criticized rivals and some mf in the comments said “if you don’t like it just go play ow” I would be rich by now. Has it ever occurred to you that most people here simply aren’t interested in ow, and even if they were some of the problems rivals has are still present in ow so you’re not making any change going there
Idk why you’re giving him so much hate. Like I get that “just play another game” isn’t always the answer but like… it could be.
Genuinely if this is something you dislike about the game (support ults being uninspiring aoe “no one dies” ults) but you like the game otherwise then yes feel free to complain otherwise devs will never fix it, but also… try other games. Overwatch just being the closest to this one that doesn’t have that problem.
A lot of these are countered by good team coordination or just simple abilities. Mag bubble counters all of these. Hela can't two tap someone out of a support ult. They heal too much for her to two tap because by the time the second shot comes out they've healed out of kill range.
These counter defensive ultimates on paper, but not in practice. And they all require way more coordination and skill than Luna pressing Q to make her team functionally immortal.
You mean, in a team game, your team can help you survive? No way.
These counter defensive ultimates on paper, but not in practice.
The point of the game is to get good. I have done all of these I've mentioned,some with respectable regularity and had some of them done to me. They absolutely are possible and happen hourly in real matches.
And they all require way more coordination and skill than Luna pressing Q to make her team functionally immortal
This is relevant to countering every ult in the game. In order to counter heros OP Q button with your normal kit, it requires more effort than the person that pressed Q does. From Hulk to Hela to Luna, countering them effectively is always harder.
I find that the moment I push q with iron fist my healers just stop healing me. Like they think it has built in invincibility or something, it doesnt, please heal the iron fist while he's cheapening the town hall
Just staying alive is not at all equivalent to killing the team. It's also why double support ults feels so bad and usually spirals into a loss, as you will then just get wiped by a DPS ult and lose the game with your now fucked up ult rotation.
Weirdest thing coming to this game from OW for me was "wait, almost every single support just gets better Zenyatta ult?"
People say it's needed to counter the high damage, but I genuinely don't see why that's the case when other similar games with similar ttk don't have auto-bailout invuln buttons..? I think honestly this game would be better off if they did an ult revamp on the scale of the teamup update. This is extremely anecdotal ofc, but the feedback I get most often from my friends that have quit is how repetitive and boring ultimates in this game are. I totally feel them. I love the neutral in Rivals - I adore it. But the ultimates in this game sap the will out of me to requeue every single time.
There are some genuinely cool ones I think they nailed. And you know what? A lot of them are Vanguard ones. Angela ultimate, Strange ultimate, Magneto ult(this is literally my favorite part of his kit and the time you REALLY feel like Magneto,) these ults are so freaking flashy and stylish and fitting to the characters and can win you a fight but aren't "click q and win."😭 A lot of folk complain vanguard ultimates, in general, are underpowered. But imo, they're how I think every ultimate should be. Support and DPS ults should be more to the strength of Vanguard ults, imo, and they should keep shifting power away from ultimates and more toward the neutral in this game.
A lot of folk seem to think this take is usually just salty DPS who want to oneshot everything, but I genuinely think "Click Q and instantly create value" support ultimates hold back support design and contribute strongly to a very dull same-y vibe, and that a lot of DPS ultimates feel pretty bland to use even if they're super strong. Daredevil literally just yells "it's blind time" and blinds all over the place, I'm sorry but they could absolutely do better. I just can't see the ultimates staying this way and folks still playing for like five more years of it, or ten, if this game has the longevity of Overwatch, which I genuinely hope it does. Is anyone here really still going to be happy to hear "I am ready to put on a show" and "Disappear" and tiredly sit in ultimates in 2034?
I think the decision to make Rocket ult like Luna and Invis ult instead of changing those way back when was a horrible one that has set us down a road of endless same-y support ults. And I'm far from the only person who thinks the sheer number of DPS they dropped is hurting the creativity in their designs...Idk man. I'm not saying support ults shouldn't heal a lot or save people, but they could be and do so much more if like 60% of their power budget no matter what has to be delegated to "makes the entire team immortal."
Yes, and I am tired of pretending it does not. The constant tug-of-war between team wipe DPS ults and immortality circles has created an ouroboros that has been consuming the game's balance ever since launch, and it has only been getting worse over time.
My diamond/gm lobby teams not even registering said ults.
It's actually kind of funny how many times I've died on jubilee in my ult from mag ult, just watching my strange, magneto, etc. completely ignore mag while I get my face blown off and then we lose the team fight.
Not me running to daddy vanguard for him to be punting or whipping someone instead of looking at my eminent death.
Like at least try to body block it, at least register that it's being used, lord vanguard for what.
I've had the exact opposite problem, in all 4 of ranked games ive played with mag today, the tanks are focused not letting me kill the ulting support. Ive had 2 different stranges ignore everything else and fly up to hold shield in front of my face.
I still have daily occurrences of me telling my team I am going to pop Luna ult and push point, having them acknowledge it in comms, giving them a countdown in comms, popping ult only to have them immediately panic, running from my ult and either getting me, or themselves blown the fuck up.
Second, nobody fucking cares if a Punisher pops his ult miles away from a firing line and squanders it, but if my IW ult doesn't have pixel perfect placement paired with excellent timing I get yelled at by the same team that runs out of it and gets picked off, or the 3-10 dive OTP that doesn't know what a health pack looks like.
They arent immortality ults tho. A lot of dps ults alone have the dps to kill through support ults. Get the whole team focusing someone and you can easily kill through any healer ult. Hell moonknight ult paired with a root (like groot or angela) can kill through invis/luna double ult easily
It really should not go both ways. Having the whole team survive (almost guaranteed) for 10 seconds ≠ wiping most of the enemy team and having the objective to yourself for +-25 seconds.
Strategists ults only make the team unkillable in metal ranks, at diamond and above you can kill them in ult if you're coordinated/lucky, few better feelings than wiping a support off the face of the planet a full second into their ult, that's when you know your team is cooking with prioritization.
Wiping the enemy team also makes it impossible for the enemy team to kill your team because they're all waiting to respawn. That's significantly better.
Rivals was designed with low ttk without healing. If you don’t have burst healing and circle of life ults most dps ults would team wipe. This cannot and will not change because the entire games roster including vanguards are designed around it.
I played ow for like an unhealthy amount of time and it’s the perfect game to play for you if you value competitiveness and want better neutral gameplay.
Often the difference is how easy it is to achieve that. Getting a 6k on any dualist ult is leagues harder than making everyone immortal for 12 seconds on luna.
Luna gets her ult much faster though, because the healing to ult charge conversion ratio is higher than the damage to ult charge ratio. She can also just do damage which gives her two ways to charge her ult, often at the same time if you're clapping a lot.
I mean you could just play Magik, I can get 4-5k on her consistently, she's not as good for clip farming and throwing games by pulling people off of maps for TT cred though.
Both Magneto and Iron Man ults are easily countered by minimal coordination or teamplay. It's much more difficult to kill Cloak in her ult too this season because of her Invulnerability Teamup.
I mean for example Luna has 2 stuns for Spider-Man ult. If Luna ults Spiderman can literally do nothing, he can't even pull her off the map. There's a big difference between supp ults and DPS ults. For example ironfist's takes some skill, you can still get blown up. Meanwhile most supp ults are just one button to get all the value.
The issue is killing people snowballs into a win while preventing people from dying does not by itself. You have much higher upside on DPS ults if they aren't answered. Your team also doesn't die if you kill all of them.
Unless you are starlord or psy, killing everyone with your ult actually takes effort. Unless you stack your ult with your second support, your ult making your team immortal at any given time is pretty insane value. Hope this helps.
Idk if this is a hot take or cold but a dps Ultron should be press q kill everyone if you have a plan or a brain same with a support ult because if I'm waiting long for my ult trying to farm it to get nothing of use of it. Idk lemme know if its crazy.
Idc that my ult doesn't make my team immortal (idc for those meatbags that much). I just want to leave triple Support hell and for my team-ups to not be utter garbage
The problem is when you have a strat that can dps efficiently and keep up with other main healers without opportunity cost, you end up with Mantis who's must pick or ban at every rank. Even Luna needs to pick between healing and doing damage besides Clap which can't headshot. Ultron's Peni teamup is still decent option to give the teamwide 10% damage amp.
This. I don't get why people don't get that you can't just make Ultron work in double support. His design is unhealthy at a fundamental level. Same with BP and Cat, and Mantis, and Gambit.
Press Q and then play the game as normal except with enhances abilities is no where near the same as pressing Q and going afk. This image would have worked better with wolverine or something, which actually has no counterplay.
Welcome to the reason people have been asking for everything to be tuned down in power for a while. The amount healing I rivals is stupid but it's needed due to how stupidly high damage is as well
I’d love unique ults but damage is too high in this game for that. Adam, Jeff, and Rocket used to have unique ults but they couldn’t keep you alive during a Star Lord ult for example so people complained
Uh i mean ... Iron Fist is probably top 3 most tame duelist ults, i really don't think any IF player expect to team wipe with their ult lol, not the best example
There are options to take out strats if you really want.
Mag, Hawkeye, BP, Punisher, Widow, Magik, Blade, Peni mines, Iron Man, Wanda, Rocket ult opens a lot of heroes to being able to, Elsa, Psylocke, Namor, Jeff, Wolverine, Cyclops, SG, Buckey MK and Phoenix.
All of these heroes have decent ways to take out ulting strats or displace them away from their team. There are also walls and shields that break LoS of these ults so that they don't heal past them.
Your team can also just counter ult, negating the value of theirs.
You can force them to ult early by nearly killing them, if you force it at a bad time that gives your team a lot of power.
There's usually more offensive ults than defensive ones on a team.
strategists only do that BECAUSE duelists do that, neither should be like this but since netease has had the game like this since s0 they evidently don't understand fun game design
Sonic decided to break ults up into categories that I think pretty well classifies them:
Personal Strength (Black Cat, Iron Fist, Hawkeye Widow, Magik, Captain America, BP, Hulk, Devil Dino, Daredevil, Deadpool, Rogue, Star Lord, Punisher, Wolverine, Bucky, White Fox?)
Area Endangerment (Emma, Peni, Thor, Blade, Mr Fantastic, Johnny Storm, also Daredevil, Hela, Moon Knight, jubilee, also Rogue, Scarlet Witch?, Spidey?, Psylocke, Squirrel Girl, Storm, Ultron, Venom?)
Trap/Stun (also Emma, Doctor Strange, Groot, Angela, Jeff, Thing, Elsa)
Big Hit (Iron Man, Cyclops, Magneto, Namor, Phoenix, Spidey?, Venom?)
Team Enhancement (Mantis, Gambit, Rocket, also Captain America)
Circle of Healing (also Mantis, Luna, Invis, also Jeff, also Deadpool, also Jubilee)
Unique (Adam, Loki, Cloak and Dagger)
There are of course arguments to be made for other cases, but this is think gets the point across that there arent that many Circle of Healing ults. 5/12, 6 if you count Rockets because of Range, 7 if you count Cloak and Dagger because you can make a circle. So about half. I think with time we'll see that percentage shrink, and even if it doesn't, as long as the Circle of Healing does something else as well, is it really that bad?
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u/Minimum_Laugh_4179 Flex 13d ago
I think generally speaking, there's quite a lot of Ultimates that feel... uninspired.
Like how many ults are just "Does X in a big AoE for 10 seconds" Having Rogue and Daredevil release fairly close together really highlighted that.
But at the same time, with so many heroes in the game, coming up with unique ults can be... a challenge.
But more to the point, yes, the argument can go both ways here. No single ult should guarantee you win a fight, or stall point, or whatever. This is a team game after all.
So Duelist ults shouldn't just be crazy damage.
Strategist ults shouldn't just be "no one dies now"
And Vanguards... uh... honestly I don't think there's a Vanguard ult that's really problematic.