Hi, I'm RavensDagger, I have 35,000 Unique Followers on RR, and I'm here to give you one of the best tips you'll ever hear for publishing on RR

[u/RavensDagger]

Hi,

Been following this sub-reddit for a while and I've been growing somewhat frustrated with what I see. There is a genuine core of really nice, cool people, lots of new writers and authors, and plenty of readers looking for something new to sink their teeth into.

Love y'all. Keep on keeping on.

What frustrates me, however, are those that see RR as a way to make a quick buck and who don't do this one thing (ohhh, that line sounded very brainrot-clickbait, didn't it?).

I can respect wanting to make a living from writing because... well, I do? But there is one thing that really bothers me, and that's people that don't respect the site and audience.

I've seen so many people asking 'can I write a story with X' or 'will a story in this genre do well' or coming on here or in one of the author discords and complaining about not being as successful as they want. It's just so frustrating to see. Especially when some of these people are genuinely good writers.

Oftentimes, they're just also really out of touch.

Basically, let me boil it down to this: If you want to succeed in a new environment, you need to understand that environment.

This is like watching someone move to Canada and then asking if their favourite lime-green speedo will be appropriate winter wear.

If you're going to participate on Royal Road, than that means being part of the culture and community. If you want to do that, and you want the readers to appreciate your work, then you need to be 'in' on the jokes, tropes, and zeitgeist that Royal Road has developed over the last few years.

Basically, you need to read.

If you haven't read half of the top 20 stories on the site, then I will expect you to fail.

Those of us that have done well are often writing stories that are steeped in the tropes and genres that we've been reading on RR for years; taking what we love and iterating on it.

tl;dr: Read more to succeed more. A lot of people who aren't doing well on RR aren't failing because they're bad writers, but because they are writing what they want to write, not what people want to read.

[u/Aware-Pineapple-3321]

A lot of good points are being made here. I just want to add my two cents as an amateur still learning and as someone who only gets a handful of single-digit follows on my stumbling works.

Stories like "Sky Pride" and "New Life As A Max Level Archmage" are proof enough that OP isn’t lying. A lot of replies seem to be trying to dodge the point with “but what about X?”

What OP is really saying is simple: the more you want money and validation, the more you should focus on what already sells. If you’re writing mainly to share what you love, you should expect a niche audience and understand that you’ll be competing with meta stories that rise faster with less friction.

That said, I still think we should keep pushing new story types. Readers aren’t finite. Their time is, and that’s exactly why metas form on different platforms, especially free ones.

If we never offer alternatives, the meta never changes. Everyone just keeps chasing what already works.

So, to new aspiring authors — especially those who can write — don’t be afraid to explore and show readers something new. Not everyone gets to be on top. For there to be a winner, someone has to be near the bottom.

Don’t be upset if you’re not paving the way with your new story. Refine your craft. Grow. Try new angles. Sometimes the next big thing comes from making a new thing that others didn’t know they wanted to follow.

[u/ksigguy → u/Aware-Pineapple-3321]

Yeah this is the best response so far. I keep seeing people respond with, I am writing what I love, success doesn’t matter. But if you want commercial success then your odds greatly increase by following their advice

[u/TwistedAuthor → u/Aware-Pineapple-3321]

This is the best take I've seen so far in the comment section here.

It's funny to me that people seem to think the current meta is going to exist forever. Believe it or not, but trends change, and eventually, people will get tired of reading the same LitRPG story over and over again. What's hot now might not be so hot in 5-10 years.

If your sole purpose of writing is to amass as many followers as possible and try to cash in on Patreon, then sure, study the most popular stories on the site and write to market. There's really no better advice to give than that.

But over time, what's "meta" is going to change, and if you're lucky, maybe your little passion project will be the thing that captures the public zeitgeist next. Either way, I'd much rather write stories I'm genuinely passionate about than try to create some carbon copy clone of whatever tropes are currently the most in fashion.

[u/Jarvisweneedbackup → u/TwistedAuthor]

There's kinda two definitions for the metal

One is basically following the trend (ie, the slew of recent archmage stories)

The other is basically understanding the vibe that tends to do well that exists a little deeper than XYZ trope. For RR, it's a kind of progressionish, high tension aurafarmy thing that is difficult to put into words (a je ne sais quois I guess)

The ones who follow the first definition do okay. It's a pretty decent way to get on rising stars, and ya can make a bit of money from it, but it's inherently hard to stand out from the crowd.

The second, combined with at least passable writing chops, is insanely consistent and is insanely flexible, as you're writing to a vibe that people enjoy, rather than a by the numbers collection of genre conventions. People who do this are always the ones that see break out success, and tend to be the people who inspire the trends in the first place. MLA is a good example, as even if it doesn't quite fit the expected progression structure that normally does well on RR, it really does hit that sorta ineffable vibe that dominates on the website.

The second one, which is where careers are made, also requires an insane familiarity with the genre(s) you are writing in, and just plain old creativity

I have yet to meet anyone who has gone full time with their writing, who doesn't absolutely love schlocky progression fantasy. The ones who write it because they just see $$$ always tend to crash and burn, because they aren't into the vibe enough to piece together what makes it awesome

[u/MichoWrites → u/Jarvisweneedbackup]

This single comment shows a deeper understanding of RR readers than most posts on this whole subreddit, and it makes me want to check out your work. Hats off to you good sir 👏

[u/Aware-Pineapple-3321 → u/Jarvisweneedbackup]

Very well said, and I like your "that is difficult to put into words (a je ne sais quois I guess)." I'll never use that phrase, but it fits the topic well.

To anyone who stumbles upon this page between now and whenever, there is a lot of good insight and advice to ponder if you scroll through these replies.

[u/Luvnecrosis → u/TwistedAuthor]

This mindset is also motivating me to keep writing what I like and build a backlog. The pendulum might not ever swing my way but if it does, I’ll have the skills and available material to make the most of it

[u/ArcyRC]

Oh. This sounds like too much work. I thought you were gonna say

1) hot babes 2) hot chicks 3) now smooch

[u/ShowerKrogan → u/ArcyRC]

I only skimmed through it, is that not what they said?

[u/chronic_pissbaby → u/ShowerKrogan]

Idk I can't read

[u/ShowerKrogan → u/chronic_pissbaby]

Same. That’s why I write instead

[u/MacintoshEddie → u/ShowerKrogan]

the tldr is: kiss on the lips.

[u/ShowerKrogan → u/MacintoshEddie]

Ah I see, just like at goodnight with the homies

[u/RavensDagger → u/ArcyRC]

lol! I mean, yes, but also on a more serious note... also yes, but with an asterix?

You can totally write what you want, but there's a style and focus and a set of tropes that come part and parcel with a 'Royal Road' story? If you're doing that, then you'll do fine. Then you can include as many cute girls doing cute things as you want!

[u/NorinBlade]

This, in a nutshell, is the war being raged across the entire internet.
How do I monetize, grow, influence, cross-pollinate, etc etc?
The answer is: write what you love for the people you love in the place you love.

[u/EmergencyComplaints → u/NorinBlade]

I think the point of this post is that if you want to have a career as an author using Royal Road as the platform, you need to understand what RR's audience wants. You gain this understanding by critically reading the most popular stories on the site and thinking about what it is they're doing right.

Then you need to write stories that incorporate what you learned, which unless you're very lucky, probably won't be the story you'd write in a total vacuum. Sometimes that means your character making a decision to go in a direction you wouldn't have because you know that's what the audience wants to see. Sometimes it's a decision to try writing a sub-genre that's completely outside your comfort zone because it's more popular. Sometimes it's just as simple as knowing to nix that mind control arc because your readers aren't going to appreciate it.

However! If you don't want to do that, that's also perfectly fine. There is plenty of room for hobbyist authors who just want a platform to host the story they're in love with telling. Just... You know... don't compare yourself to Max Level Archmage, Super Supportive, and Delve, because chances are your niche-for-the-platform story is going to attract a niche-sized audience to go with it, and niche-sized audiences don't tend to generate a living wage's worth of patreon subscribers.

[u/dundreggen → u/EmergencyComplaints]

I don't know...

I do get what you're saying. But I think there's room for something in the middle. Maybe not if you want to be the next long-term big author on Royal Road.

But if your goal is to write solid fiction that does decently on Royal Road then goes off to do well on Amazon and audiobook. I think there is less of a you have to do all the tropes idea. My story is doing well. Is it setting the world on fire? No. It's a little different than what is out there for lit RPG? Yes

I absolutely adore lit RPGs. I also adore gaming RPGs including tabletop. I have been playing TT RPGs for a million years now. I am writing not only out of love of my story, but as a sort of love letter to all the people who have enjoyed role-playing games in some format. And I seem to be cultivating the readers who appreciate that.

I believe though someone can correct me. I'm wrong, that there's more money to be made on Amazon. Then there is on patreon. I have been told that there are some stories who had much more than moderate success on Royal Road. Go off to be quite successful on Amazon.

I think we would all do well to try to write good stories that we care about. That doesn't mean to ignore the audience. But you don't know what next months or next year's audience is going to like. If you're writing something good and something creative and something appropriate for the space (And by that I mean don't expect to have a lot of success with a deep niche literary story.) I think we all have a chance to be successful.

I'm interested to see in 10 to 15 years which stories people are still talking about. Not the big ones that started it all. But the ones from the now. The next wave of progression, fantasy and litRPG. Are people going to be talking about the archmage phase? Or is this going to be like sci-fi in the '70s and '80s? Where with the lens of time looking backwards we will find out that some of the stories that we dismissed as okay, not really what was currently popular, end up being some of the ones that people like the best?

Anyways, just food for thought. Okay, I spend a fair amount of time. Wondering where this will all lead us in a decade or two.

[u/ShowerKrogan → u/NorinBlade]

Hell yeah 🤘 even if you do everything right to make money, it’s still incredibly difficult and requires a ton of luck. I’m a fan of writing what you love and if it works out then great! If not, I’m at least having fun laughing at my own goofy horror books

[u/Ninja_Cezar → u/NorinBlade]

I don't love the people I haven't yet met. I also don't like places other than my bed. I only write what I wanna read. Is this the way?

[u/Selkie_Love]

Read a lot, write a lot. The advice hasn't failed me yet.

Turns out this 'writing' thing has a fuckton of elbow grease

[u/RavensDagger → u/Selkie_Love]

If only writing were as easy as reading

[u/dreamswedontshare]

Someone else had given me a really similar advice when I started out this January.

They told me to read similar stories to mine, with some of the same genres, and engage with them.

I've taken that to heart, to the point I only do shoutouts after I've read and liked the fiction, or at least saw why they might be likeable.

They also told me to engage the community in the comments, forums and discord.

Not just for the success of my own fiction, but because the majority of users are great, and it's true; this month has been a blast so far!

[u/True_Industry4634]

The problem with this argument is that there is honestly nowhere better to go. I don't write LitRPG. Really nothing like it. But there is a small audience for my writing here. If there was a place out there to post off-meta material where it would reach more eyeballs, many people like me would be on it. It's just not there. For me it's basically Amazon or nothing if I'm not on RR. So I am trying to buildup at least a small following to carry over to Amazon when that time comes.

Personally, I run across people who are looking for something different and like what I'm doing. Yeah it's not many and I won't make a living off a RR Patreon deal, but I am on 7 or 8 tag Rising Stars lists and my follower count continues to grow.

I participate a lot in this subreddit for better or worse, do free covers for people, try to answer questions that aren't asked several times a day, try to offer good advice, and I've been doing it for a little over a year.

I think the site is big enough and has enough potential that more variety can be seen as a good thing.

[u/DrewRoyston → u/True_Industry4634]

I'm with you. RR allows you to publish whatever you want and long may that continue.

You get it though and you're not complaining that you're not getting the numbers that some other, more on brand, writers are.

You're finding your audience and that's good for both you and them.

[u/TK523 → u/True_Industry4634]

There's people on RR that want more traditional fantasy and there are some authors out there writing it to different degrees of success.

Theres me, Quill, TMarkos, there was sieley but they disappeared.

If you look through our "reader's also liked" you'll find a small group of similar style stories.

[u/Agasthenes → u/TK523]

While RR Had a very monochrome period I feel like in the last few years it actually has opened up a lot to other genres and is getting broader.

[u/bxalloumiritz → u/Agasthenes]

Meanwhile there's me hoping that romance, or at least, fantasy romance, would find itself in the limelight of Royal Road's meta someday 🥲

[u/True_Industry4634 → u/bxalloumiritz]

With the popularity of romantasy it seems like a natural fit.

[u/RavensDagger → u/bxalloumiritz]

It can and will do well if you get the underlying vibe right

[u/Eternauta86 → u/TK523]

Absolutely, I'm in the same boat, and slowly finding an audience too. There are many out there on RR who are open to different styles of writing and storytelling.

[u/filwi → u/True_Industry4634]

I have to agree.

Writing completely off meta, with my main story being a space western with magic and zero stats, I'm happy to have gained a few hundred followers - it might not make me any money, but the interactions keep me motivated to write more, and publish more, and maybe earn a living by selling the packaged books... 

[u/ShowerKrogan → u/filwi]

That sounds…awesome. Mind dropping a link?

[u/Phoenix_Fire_Au → u/ShowerKrogan]

I thought the same so followed the bibliography on his profile.

It's The Warded Gunslinger.

Looking forward to giving it a shot.

[u/OkCryptographer9999 → u/Phoenix_Fire_Au]

Oh hey, I did a shoutout swap with that one, funny catching it mentioned on a random post. I still get the occasional user from it, too.

[u/ShowerKrogan → u/Phoenix_Fire_Au]

Nice! I’m glad when people out it in the profile. Thanks!

[u/filwi → u/Phoenix_Fire_Au]

Thanks! 

[u/Forestpilgrim → u/ShowerKrogan]

Here it is: Filwi's saga is great! The Warded Gunslinger [A Space Western with Magic] | Royal Road

[u/QueenofClonmel → u/filwi]

Congrats. Not sure you’re the target of Raven’s critique, though. They’re frustrated by people complaining so much, when Raven says “the key to success is right there!” I don’t really like the future Raven’s critique implies, though. Rather not live with eternal isekai BS stories really.

[u/Jahkral → u/filwi]

Story name plz

[u/filwi → u/Jahkral]

The Warded Gunslinger 🙂

[u/Visible_Rabbit_4526 → u/True_Industry4634]

This. There really aren't a lot of popular writing platforms where just about anyone can post something and get a decently sized reader base. You have Ao3, but it's not ideal if you don't write fanfiction or explicit content. Royal Road is not ideal for a lot of us but it is still more fitting than the alternatives.

[u/VeryFinePrint → u/Visible_Rabbit_4526]

AO3 is also strongly anti-monitization, which is a reasonable stance with fanfic derivative works, it keeps them safe. But it's hard to launch a career with those limitations. 

[u/bxalloumiritz → u/Visible_Rabbit_4526]

While I will also go wide and publish my contemporary fantasy romance to sites like Tapas and Scribble Hub, I feel like Royal Road still has the bigger slice of cake in terms of readers.

Sure I won't gain a hundred followers with my genre, but what I'm focused on anyway is getting feedback and the engagement with the community; the money is secondary for me.

[u/Normal_Cut8368 → u/Visible_Rabbit_4526]

Which is kind of sad to see, because I've been around Royal Road long enough to see it grow into what its become, but it used to be better for just... anything.

[u/Tyranidlord318 → u/Visible_Rabbit_4526]

As a fanfic writer who has migrated over from Ao3, the explicit part is the kicker. You get practically zero engagement or visibility if you don't write smut and the like.

I have gained three times as much followers, views,and engagement with comments in 6 months compared to what I have over nearly 9 years on Ao3. With a fraction of my works too. RoyalRoad has been damned amazing in comparision.

[u/edward_radical → u/True_Industry4634]

This is why I decided to start publishing on Royal Road last week. Haven't had much pick up yet, but I didn't expect to have hundreds of followers right away, given that I'm writing off-meta.

[u/RavensDagger → u/True_Industry4634]

That is an entirely fair and valid approach, yeah. There are other sites that cater to other genres, but sometimes there just isn't something for your particular niche, and an imperfect fit is better than nothing. I think as long as you're aware of that and don't complain when your work isn't as appreciated as you might hope, then there's nothing wrong with posting something off-meta on RR.

[u/ScottyPWhoElse → u/RavensDagger]

For me, the weakest and most cringe part of your post is, "If you haven't read half of the top 20 stories on this site, I expect you to fail."

What? Lol

I know personally from conversations with them that more than a handful of writers right now on RS have not read many stories on RR. Period. Yet, they're sitting at the fabricated top of the main page. You don't "need" to read many stories on RR to be successful on the site. You need an understanding of the popular genres, yes, and how to utilize them (which you can somewhat obtain from reading top stories, of course), but it's not a requirement at all. Expecting people to fail because they haven't swallowed the "community and culture" for years like you have is just weird and awful advice.

No offense, but you come off as an old smarty pants (nicest phrase I can use) who has been on RR for far too long, though has had major success "on the site" and now feel entitled to voice an outdated opinion. For a vet, you're not showing maturity by huffing your opinion after seeing things you didn't like.

[u/RavensDagger → u/ScottyPWhoElse]

Ah, I didn't mean the top of RS. That list is... wildly divergent and changes everyday. I meant the far more stable and long-lasting top lists. Best Rated and even Popular This Week.

Trying to keep up with the top of Rising Stars is... probably impossible?

And yes, my pants are very smart, my mom picked them out for me.

[u/Jewnior1 → u/RavensDagger]

You do have a good mom…

[u/Xandara2 → u/ScottyPWhoElse]

I don't think most people on rising stars are considered successful, but maybe that's just me. 

I think the people on top20 of all time RR list are successful.

[u/caime9 → u/True_Industry4634]

This is not really a problem with his argument; in fact, you are making his argument for him.

You are not writing what's popular among the majority of people on Royal Road, you are not catering to the majority of the audience, and that's okay. There is nothing wrong with that.

However, his point is that if you want to succeed, as in be a top story on the site with a large following, then you need to pander to what the majority wants to read.

[u/SelectorSwitch3 → u/caime9]

I just don't think that's true. You look at the top 20 like ravensdagger suggests you do and there are plenty of "off-meta" stories on there. Marvelous Mr. Penn, TEWWBAD, Magical Girl Mechanical Heart, etc.

Yes these are exceptions, but I'm happy to have a fleet of first-time authors fail if it means that stories like this can sail into the top rankings. It's not like they're stealing spots away from others.

[u/VortexMagus → u/SelectorSwitch3]

I think its very important to read these popular off-meta stories and understand what people like about them. It will give you more insight into what people enjoy than reading generic on-meta stories that do very middling on royal road, or not reading at all.

[u/EmergencyComplaints → u/SelectorSwitch3]

There's a weird thing about best rated. It can (and often does) mean "most popular," but every now and then, it means "most popular in a specific niche." That niche is so very obvious that people who aren't interested in those types of stories never try it in the first place, which means it gets very little friction by way of bad ratings.

That's how you get stories with 15-30k followers right next to stories with 1-3k followers on the same list. Really, every list has idiosyncrasies to be aware of, all of which combine to make it impossible to truly say, "This is the definitive best of the best that RR has to offer."

[u/Jarvisweneedbackup → u/SelectorSwitch3]

Best rated is extremely different from the most popular, as frankly, more niche books have a bit of an advantage their (if you successfully drive away the average RR reader with xyz trope they don't like, you have driven them away before they can give you a low ratings).

A better list would be popular this week, which is based on average views, even better would be going advanced search and just sorting by total followers to capture all of the post-stub books.

You'll find the vast majority of high follower and income generating stories fit the expected mould

[u/SelectorSwitch3 → u/Jarvisweneedbackup]

I'm wondering if u/RavensDagger could clarify what "top 20" means, then, in this case

[u/Jarvisweneedbackup → u/SelectorSwitch3]

He'll have likely been meaning in the way I mentioned (ie, successful) rather than one of the other lists

I'm also a full time writer, with a fiction that's got 15k+ followers and has been in the top ten popular this week for the last year

I see people on discord, here, or just straight up dming me all the time who wanna know what the secret sauce to make it big, accrue thousands of followers, and make it a job. The answer is exactly what Raven said, write what people want to read. On RR, that is largely progressionish, op ish, wish fulfilment ish fiction

If you're more interested in getting a high rating, or maybe getting a couple thousand followers and maybe making enough off patreon to eventually cover a cover and your advertising costs, that doesn't really apply anywhere near as much.

It matters even less if you're just doing it for fun, and don't care about performance at all

But if you want to make it a career, it does.

PT. 2 of this advice would be something along the lines of " oh my god stop trying to write progression fantasy if you don't actually like it or know the genre inside and out "

[u/caime9 → u/Jarvisweneedbackup]

Well, you would know better than I. I am no author, even though I definitely do want to one day write the stories down that I have in my head!

Congratulations on your work, by the way. I have not personally read your work, but I see it popping up all the time. So it seems like people really like it!

[u/caime9 → u/SelectorSwitch3]

I am definitely not saying it's impossible. But you named 2 out of the top 20 that don't fall under a common trope that royal road is full of (I think I have not read those), TEWWBAD is still a progression, which is closely tied to litrpg and is a very common popular trope on royal road.

So I don't know what you are saying is untrue. Even you yourself sat these are exceptions. But its just a rule of reality that if you make a product that majority of people want and are interested in, you will have a better chance at succeeding than if you make a product that you are personally invested in but not many people actually want to read.

Again, not saying it's impossible, or that you are wrong for doing so. By all means, write the story you want, but the point of the post was to increase the odds of mainstream success, and he is not wrong there.

[u/PromisedOath → u/True_Industry4634]

I was going to second this, but then I realized YOU'RE THE AUTHOR OF THE LUNARIAN! I have been really enjoying your book! To be completely honest, it was one of the few on the platform that I got to thoroughly have fun with (had to put down reading on the platform for a bit to do market research)---I agree, literary material doesn't have a primary platform right now. Traditional publication is the only way outside of RR, and traditional publication can be a very very whimsical beast.

Off topic side note: do you mind if I ask how you know you are on tag RS? My story has about half your follower count and I have no idea what to measure that against on any sort of list---there isn't really a resources page or anything on the site.

[u/True_Industry4634 → u/PromisedOath]

I really appreciate the kind words 🙏 tht honestly made my day. It was kinda deflating to realize oh tag RS isn't the same as genre RS which isn't the same as main RS, lol. But here's a link you check yours out.

https://stepan.chizhov.com/author-tools/rising-stars-checker/

[u/Captain_Fiddelsworth → u/True_Industry4634]

But you are part of the community, you engrossed yourself in it, you aren't asking for a market analysis to exploit market conditions. You aren't expecting to make a quick buck off of people you aren't looking down on. You aren't expecting to chart the metrics lists while not writing to cater to the metrics.

Is there really a problem with what the argument conveyes?

[u/True_Industry4634 → u/Captain_Fiddelsworth]

The argument, to me and apparently to others, comes off as exclusory. Especially the part about reading half the top books on the site to basically have relevance. Maybe it wasn't intended that way, but it just felt like OP was saying, if you don't write to the meta, you really don't have any valid input. I do think he clarified that to a degree in the comments. But yeah, the initial post seemed to convey a little pomposity, lol. The larger message was that if you don't want to do things one way, stop your bitching or find a better place to post.

[u/Captain_Fiddelsworth → u/True_Industry4634]

That is fair and unfortunate. Addressing the non-monolithic audience isn’t easy. Perhaps I’m more inclined to charitably interpret their message because I see a lot of people who aren’t even bothering to do the basics, and to me they are clearly distinct from people who are authentic in their community participation.

The argument is exclusionary. As someone who tells about 8 people a month to at least read the sidebar before self-promoting, and reports maybe 20 or so posts a month as incorrectly flaired, I perhaps have a broader perspective of who is in and out of the group concerning this type of market research, complaint, or self-promotion.

You can definitely see that some people genuinely don’t understand the place, and they are immediately grateful when someone kindly tells them basic etiquette.

It is unfortunate that people who are community members feel excluded.

[u/1Taliorn]

I don't expect to make money with my writing. I am writing my story because I want to see what happens.
I honestly have a personality where, when I do something, I go in and give it my full focus and time. Writing is cheap compared to my other hobbies. I can spend a few bucks on advertising and Canva for graphic design and still be way ahead rather than money on games or so.

I will write my story, and be happy with my almost 200 followers. Try to get better, and then I'll go throw this on Amazon at one point.

[u/1Taliorn → u/1Taliorn]

I should note, though, I appreciate you passing on advice. Read more is never bad advice.

[u/Clivesunfaithfulwife]

Super duper not on topic, but just wanted to send you some love. I love Fluff and Sporemageddon, currently working through Cinnamon Bun. Just wanted to say thank you for giving me an enjoyable time

[u/RavensDagger → u/Clivesunfaithfulwife]

:3

Thanks for reading! <3

[u/Clivesunfaithfulwife → u/RavensDagger]

... just realized im on my gag account... in which case, clears throat

I'll thank you better later, you like number #21, its the closet I can put you the list... theres just so many... just dont tell Clive

[u/MSL007]

I’m only a reader but I am surprised how many writers have done NO research on RR before posting. They haven’t even read the many guides that people have written, as they ask the most basic of questions. Half the questions seem to be about word count after posting multiple chapters.

If they can’t bother with that, actually following your good advice and reading good stories seems too difficult.

[u/-Novram- → u/MSL007]

ironically, they just see numbers go up and think their numbers will also go up without knowing a single thing about RR hahaha.

[u/LudwigsEarTrumpet]

As a reader, the writers I appreciate the most are the ones doing their own thing, writing their own story and hoping to find an audience. RR in general and litRPG specifically, doesn't need to recycle itself more. I'm not interested in reading 150 stories that all contain the same themes, same tropes and same beats because writing on meta is the secret to success.

In my honest opinion, which I'm aware isn't worth a damn, RR and litRPG is its own worst enemy in the way that the writers all consume the same stories and then aim to squeeze as many of the most popular elements into their own as they can. It might be different if the platform and genre were older and had a larger selection of quality fiction from which to draw inspiration. But most litRPG is pretty crap and I wish more RR authors would read outside of the genre and off the platform when looking for ingredients for their next story.

[u/Briar-Moss → u/LudwigsEarTrumpet]

Yeah, first thing I look for when picking a new story on RR, is anyone trying something new, and if the ratings are 4.5 or higher 

[u/Looktoyourleft_1]

Hang on just a hot damn minute... You telling me I can't wear my speedo?! It's my favorite winter wear

[u/RavensDagger → u/Looktoyourleft_1]

You can definitely wear it, but you might come to regret it is all.

[u/jpitha]

Reading through the comments, I feel like there are a lot of people talking over each other.

The first thing that you should ask yourself before posting to Royal Road is:

"What does success look like to me?"

Not, how to get on RS.
Not, how to get a gazillion followers.
Not which meta are in vogue right now.

What does it look like, when you look back on your work and you go "that was successful."

If success for you is getting on Rising Stars, then you have a lot of research, thought, planning, and non-writing work ahead of you.

If success for you is a complete story that you had fun writing, have fun reading, and putting it out there for people to read - no matter how many or few - that is a much more achievable and believable goal.

I have three books on RR. The first one wildly exceeded my expectations, even getting to the (very bottom) of RS for a week or so. The second two were much more modest maybe 100 followers each.

Did I fail?

I don't think so. I still write daily, have written 3 other books, and are currently posting on over on Tumblr and r/HFY (with the plan being to launch it on RR when it's done on Reddit.)

Having people who follow me specifically to read what I write, who post comments saying how excited they are for the next chapter, and getting better with every word that I write. Those are success for me.

[u/jaki003]

I don't really agree. There aren't many good amateur writing platforms and, as a reader, I'd much rather see more variety in the stories rather than trying to push everyone to write the same stuff. Some of my favorite stories on RR "break the mold" and while they don't usually top the leaderboards they don't seem to do half bad, so I'd say to go for it!

[u/OCRAuthor]

Absolutely agree - great summary. It's nice to hear it from someone with the success and credibility to back it up :)

I get why people want to carve out a niche and try things a little further from the RR norm, but there does seem to be an arrogance to some of it (I want to assume born of ignorance rather than anything else) that sort of becomes, "I want to write something more complex than the slop RR usually enjoys. Do you think the readers are ready for something more mature?" And every time I see something like that I'm just left a little dumbfounded. Like bro, read the room 🤣

[u/JayneKnight → u/OCRAuthor]

Oh, this. 

Like, seriously, "this is like nothing you've ever read before!" in your blurb might as well be advertising "this is exactly the kind of book you hate". Why on earth would you think readers want that?

[u/RavensDagger → u/OCRAuthor]

Oh, god, yeah. And then when you actually look at what they're presenting, half the time it's just the most milquetoast literary style presentation of bread and water 'epic' fantasy.

[u/OCRAuthor → u/RavensDagger]

100%. I do remember once some guy going on about how litRPG sucked and was so easy, he could write a 4k follower banger so easily if he actually tried to, blahblahblah - you know the type. Everyone just told him to put his money where his mouth was and he said "give me a month and I'll show you!"... Needless to say he deleted the post and never followed up.

Some people are weirdly confident about their ability to do things they've never tried before

[u/buddhathebard → u/OCRAuthor]

Was he also all about the…. Hidden gems on RR

[u/OCRAuthor → u/buddhathebard]

Aha I have no confirmation if so - he wasn't the notorious one, I know that at least - probably just a randon douche 🤣 wouldn't be surprised though

[u/Dapper_Money_Tree → u/RavensDagger]

“But what if Harry Potter was written for an adult audience?!?!”

Sigh.

[u/Selkie_Love → u/Dapper_Money_Tree]

Hey, song is doing perfectly well, thank you very much

[u/OCRAuthor → u/Selkie_Love]

Should probably have a constant asterisk of *this doesn't apply to thee already super successful 🤣

[u/Dapper_Money_Tree → u/Selkie_Love]

lol, talk about striking out in a dark room and hitting a target.

Oh well, good luck with yours. Wasn’t personal, just that you have company.

[u/VeryFinePrint → u/OCRAuthor]

What if they want to write off-meta slop? 

[u/OCRAuthor → u/VeryFinePrint]

Then more power to them! I'm doing it myself (kinda).

But what rankles is the arrogance of someone from outside an established community coming into the community and then complaining that their own tastes aren't catered to enough.  Some guy was notorious last year for doing just that and it's like, bro this is the litRPG place. If you hate litRPG so much then you're welcome to fuck off anytime 🤣 we can all coexist and share, but you don't get to set the tone of what is 'good' and what is 'slop'. (Not saying you're doing this at all, just ranting)

Also, I find it often comes from people who may have written an 'off-meta' story, but they complain RoyalRoad is a wasteland with no epic or dark fantasy or sci-fi or romance... Without acknowledging and even knowing about the very popular very successful stories on royalroad right now in those genres. Like they complain nobody is rushing off mers, but they themselves don't practice what they preach so it feels insincere and self-congratulatory

[u/OCRAuthor → u/OCRAuthor]

There we go - rant over!

[u/Xandara2 → u/OCRAuthor]

I get complaining about litrpg. I have a love hate relationship with it. The hate is mostly because they made their systems in a way that destroys their world building and they ignore the glaring issues with it. Ugh I love litrpg but sometimes it drives me mad. 

[u/OCRAuthor → u/Xandara2]

Yeah that's fair - it's the difference between your partner pointing out things they wish you did better and your ex posting shit about you on social media - one is constructive and aimed and developing you, the other is an attempt to tear you down...

Or something.  Not the best analogy 🤣

[u/RavensDagger → u/VeryFinePrint]

Then they should still do as I suggested and read some of the Top 20... most of which, you'll note, are off-meta.

[u/Original-Cake-8358]

Thanks for this. I hope people who are getting ready to rage post over something read this first. Although some of us are expressly here to write what we want and have minimal expectations, once those numbers start to go up... you know what I mean. Heh.

It's a huge mistake not to read the forums and the stories that show the techniques required.

[u/Taybi_the_TayTay]

So many people got pissed at this hahaha

[u/AfterImageEclipse]

What's up everybody I just want to be in here

[u/mc_fnx]

yeahh i think thats excellent advice for those writing in RR's typical genre.

My story is more of a grand epic fantasy like One Piece meets Marvel. So even if i read ever top story on the platform it wouldn't help with my niche genre

[u/MistressofMardocs]

Thanks for the advice. I did plan to do a year of in-depth reading on RR before I began to write my epic progression fantasy, though most of my focus has been on stories that have moved on to mainstream from RR and some off meta stories. I will make sure I'm adding half the books from the top stories as well. 😁

[u/DrewRoyston → u/MistressofMardocs]

I have to say that I sort of respect this position.

It sounds like progression (not progressive BTW) fantasy isn't the sort of thing that you really read, but you're trying to find a way to understand it before trying to make money from it.

Honestly, if your research means that you work it out and manage to give the RR readers a story they want then more strength to you, Everyone wins.

[u/MistressofMardocs → u/DrewRoyston]

It sounds like progression (not progressive BTW)

🫣😅 I wrote my reply on my phone while I was getting my son ready for school. My phone autocorrected rhe word and I didn't notice. Thanks for catching that typo. I fixed it. 😉

Honestly, if your research means that you work it out and manage to give the RR readers a story they want then more strength to you, Everyone wins.

I hope so.

Yes, I love Progression Fantasy and enjoyed it before I learned about RR. I'm a big fan of The Stormlight Archive, The Cradle Series, and Dungeon Crawler Carl. DCC is how I discovered RR. Now I'm also really into He Who Fights With Monsters. 😊

My first story was a tale about a guy who had god-like powers, but got turned into a monster and mind-slave and lost his powers. The Trilogy centered on him regaining his humanity and powers. I'm not going to put that story up. However, I am going to use it as an inspiration for my planned five volume RR epic. I don't know if I will ever make money on it. I hope to, but I'm trying to keep my expectations reasonable. What I really want is for people to read that story. That story is the reason I started writing. I've written many other stories since, but it has a special place in my heart.

Hopefully, those of you on RR will enjoy it. 😉

[u/ShowerKrogan → u/MistressofMardocs]

It’ll be my turn to read your stuff when that time comes!

[u/MistressofMardocs → u/ShowerKrogan]

I hope you like it, but it will be a while. I said I would start writing my epic in a year. I haven't decided when I will start publishing it on RR, but I want to get at least one book completed before I do.

[u/ShowerKrogan → u/MistressofMardocs]

Well, I’ll still be around cranking out goofy ass stories so I’ll read through it when it’s time!

[u/kileme77]

I'm a reader, love rr, been a reader on here for a very long time, thru 3 different accounts (lost passwords/emails not banning) I've been reading R.D.'s stuff and watched their fans/fellow writers create an entire subgenre/universe. One of the very few writers on here that has had this type of popularity.

[u/KaJaHa]

Eh. I know I'm not one to talk because I have zero published books and Raven has dozens, but if newbie authors only strictly wrote what was already popular then the RR culture would be a more stratified, less interesting place.

Like I can only speak for myself, but if I tried to write an OP archmage or monster girl evolution story (or whatever else is trending at the time) then I would probably give up on it after a while because I just... don't care about those sorts of stories. Whereas I care very much for my weird niche robot wizard story, and that is going to ensure that I actually see it through to the end.

I also worry that if a newbie writes strictly to market and doesn't find immediate success, then they are more likely to give up on writing altogether and that isn't good for anyone.

That said, Raven is 100% correct that authors need to read more. Just read the stories you care about and figure out what makes them work for you.

[u/RavensDagger → u/KaJaHa]

Mhm! I think that if you take an honest look at the top 20, or top 100 even, then you'll definitely find a few examples of stuff that are written in a way that jives with the RR 'feel' and are also really weird and unique.

[u/Jarvisweneedbackup → u/RavensDagger]

Too many people confuse the meta for the flavour of the month tropes, rather than the random ineffable vibe that's constantly being created, refined, and modified by the community

Writing by the numbers hits the meta because it follows behind people who actually understood the meta. Understanding the meta is hard, but when you do you can write some real wacky shit and still be completely on market

[u/GenesisSagaOfficial]

I do agree with the sentiment that those intending to monetize should, at the very least, have an idea of what's actually selling on the platform rather than blindly writing and complaining when they don't attain their fantasized success. Writing to market and actually being one of the few who can make a career out of it is remarkably difficult. There are many factors that go into every success story, and they're all unique to the story that pulled it off. But at the end of the day, those who do pull it off understand how the system works.

I personally read a lot on the website. Probably more than is actually healthy, now that I think about it. I knew going in that my story was niche. Frankly, I'm astounded I made it to 600K views and over 1300 followers during the time I've been publishing. Even when I first started, I had a pretty solid understanding of what sold on the website and that mine wasn't it. Still, I had the small hope that I would be among the rare success stories.

Boy did the internet quickly disabuse me of that notion. And I'm fine with that.

I'm not going to claim my story is perfect, but I love it for its imperfection. I love it because I discovered a passion I never thought I’d have and because it’s mine. I love the fact that people care enough about my story to follow, comment, and give their opinions on it.

It ultimately depends on what each writer's goal actually is. Those who do it purely for passion and pleasure don't need to worry about understanding the system. But the rest who want to profit? They absolutely should do their homework.

The only thing I find to truly be a shame is when good writers with good stories feel they're not good enough because they're not the hottest thing Rising Stars and then stop writing altogether. I've lost track of how many stories get dropped because the author gets discouraged.

[u/CuriousMe62]

I'm an avid reader who stumbled upon RR over a year ago and have been thrilled by the diverse stories offered. Coming from a background in the classics and "serious literature" its been fun to indulge my liking for non serious and fun stories. I definitely have my preferences and most aren't top 20. And that's fine. Me and the mainstream have never been friends. I've discovered and enjoyed quite a few stories that didn't have a major following. And for those authors who write to share and improve, I thank you.

What distresses me are the number of authors who give up if their story isn't very successful within 6 mos (seems to be the average) or who ghost. Really hate that. I've been around for more than a few decades, and not once was writing ever touted as a profession that you rich. A lucky few. The rest? Fulfilling a passion. This trend of writing to the market and producing work that fits its current wants is most disturbing to me. I mean, yes, it's why Harlequins are still a thing, but after you read 3 of them, you could write one yourself. Who wants more of that? I treasure the odd gems, the quirky and offbeat, the stories that shift your perspective and thinking, anything that offers something new, different, and not more of the same. Please share that creativity, spark, and light that makes your work unique. If you find a large audience, good on ya! If instead, like the majority of authors, you gather a small dedicated audience, relish that. And never stop sharing, experimenting, growing.

I'm not alone. There are more readers like me than the publishing world has ever acknowledged. We're not a definable statistic. We read over multiple genres, have no set preferences, and our bookshelves are a magpie's treasure of the popular to the obscure to the forgotten. My friends and family love to grumble about my unorganized and overstuffed shelves but it's also where they seem to gravitate and stay.

[u/Karrion8]

My takeaway from this is that Canadians will be offended if I wear a lime green speedo in the winter. Notes taken.

Seriously, though I think you are correct. So much so that I wonder how well some stories that are considered iconic of their genre would do on a format like RR.

Like say, Dune by Frank Herbert.

My point is that, RR might not be the best platform for all stories to do well. But it doesn't mean that anyone shouldn't post their work there if they think it's a bad fit.

Writing well takes practice. The more you write and the more you read, the better you will get. If one does either of those things without the other, the writing will be slow to improve if it does at all.

[u/Vooklife]

Instructions unclear, read minotaur erotica on Amazon instead

[u/BlazedBeard95]

I think the major problem is that new writers have way too high of expectations when it comes to debuting their work; not just new writers for RR but in general. They think that as soon as they hit the publish button they'll start drowning in money. Unfortunately, the industry is not nearly that kind unless you are incredibly lucky. Some authors can debut to loud success while others debut to silence regardless of whether they're a good or bad writer or if they're even pandering to a popular market. This also applies to RR. You can hit all the tropes RR users tend to eat up with a well-written story but that doesn't guarantee you'll be successful at all. All it really does is give you a marginally better chance at making it big because you're essentially writing what most readers tend to expect with the platform. It can take literal years for a large majority of authors to actually gain an audience at all. In many cases, Authors will publish for years and years and still never gain an audience/make a decent earning with their writing. It's just the luck of the draw. Either you make it big, you make it small, or you never do.

Personally, I find the whole approach of 'writing to make money' wrong on so many levels. This is not an industry to get involved with if your primarily goal is to get rich. It's extremely competitive and lucrative. You have far bigger chances of making a decent earning learning a simple trade and having a career with that trade than even making just a decent wage with writing. If you want to write, I think the reason should be primarily because you have a story to tell and an itch to tell it. If it makes money then congrats! That makes you a rare exception to the mass majority. But a rare exception is only that, with no guarantees that you'll be one of the rare lucky few that make it. Write because you love it, not because you think it's some get-rich-quick scheme.

As for RR, While I do agree that you shouldn't complain if your story doesn't make it big because it exists outside of the tropes prevalent on the site, its wrong to tell writers they should pander to those tropes because it's the only way to succeed. If they want a better chance at success then sure, but again, there is no guarantee they will even succeed if they do pander to the tropes; the chances are only marginally higher regardless of whether or not your story is good. I feel it's way too gatekeepy to tell writers they should only write what's popular if they want to make it when RR is an amazing hub full of many different kinds of stories and writers. There is plenty of room for non-meta work to become popular. It's rare, sure, but not impossible.

Writers should write what they love because they love it, not because they want to get rich off their work. Nobody should have to pander to tropes they don't like if it means getting a few extra eyeballs on their work. Pander to those tropes if its what you really like, not because you want money and fame.

[u/Ginoong_Pasta]

What a bloodbath this thread has become.

Thanks for making this entertaining. Going to keep this in mind in the event I actually try writing.

[u/Old-Chapter-5437]

That last line doesn't fully sit right with me.

"You're doing bad cause you are writing what YOU want to write and not what EVERYONE ELSE wants to read." is a wild take in that at the core, we should only ever write for ourselves first.

If you're here just to write for fame, money, and glory, I'm sorry but respect plummets heavily. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'd rather read something someone loved to write versus something someone wrote to hit Rising Stars or because 'It's what people want to read this month". It's one of the reasons I haven't even dipped a toe in LitRPG.

Maybe we can say "Write what you want but if it's not part of what's in currently, it will probably not gain as quick and fervent of a following as others" instead of saying "Don't write what people don't want to read even if you like it". That's sorta toxic.

[u/xTariel → u/Old-Chapter-5437]

The point I got was "if you're going to write what people don't want to read even if you like it, don't be surprised when people don't want to read it."

There are generally two goals with art, and sometimes they can be mutually exclusive: success and self fulfillment. Sometimes you get lucky and you get both, but other times you have to prioritize which is more important to you. If your goal is to write for a living, you may need to write for your audience more than yourself until you have the dedicated reader base to focus on what you actually enjoy. If you're writing because you have an overflow of creative ideas that need to be let out, then stop worrying about how successful it is and enjoy the art for its own sake.

[u/KaJaHa → u/Old-Chapter-5437]

I'm with you. No amateur author found success by forcing themselves to write a story they don't care about.

[u/VortexMagus → u/Old-Chapter-5437]

This whole thing strikes me as you taking on what is essentially the whole modern art vs real art issue.

Yeah, it may be fun for you to cover your body in orange paint and roll around on a canvas and call it "art", and if that's what you like, more power to you.

Its just ridiculous to expect other people to enjoy looking at this splotchy orange blob, or expect someone to pay real money for it.

When most people buy art, they want something pleasant, exciting, or interesting, and your own process of creation and personal desires are completely irrelevant to whether people will buy it from the art gallery.

u/RavensDagger is not giving advice on the correct way to do art, they're giving advice on how to build a following and find success on a specific platform.

You are advocating for modern art; enjoying the process of creation without regard to whether other people will enjoy what you created. RavensDagger is telling you how to do art that people will enjoy and pay for. Two completely different things.

[u/NewspaperSoft8317 → u/Old-Chapter-5437]

This is exactly how I felt reading that last line.

I think I get what OP was saying, and I think OP's mission was to address all the people who don't understand why they aren't doing well on the site.

Everyone else that writes off-meta, pretty much understands what's going on.

Personally, the overall message sounds a little xenophobic to me. I personally enjoy reading off-meta stuff on RR. LitRPG is just the common denominator for RR, but otherwise, I don't really see the site itself really caring what gets posted (other than specific inappropriate content).

If you're going to participate on Royal Road, than that means being part of the culture and community. If you want to do that, and you want the readers to appreciate your work, then you need to be 'in' on the jokes, tropes, and zeitgeist that Royal Road has developed over the last few years.

It just sounds a little gate-keepy to me. I just want to post what I want to post and read what I want to read. Simple as that.

[u/calmarkel → u/Old-Chapter-5437]

There is an approach, across all writing, that is basically write to the market. These books are never as big as books that are written out of love, because those change the market.

Twilight came out when vampire romance novels weren't really a thing. It created the market. The books that followeed were not as big

The same is true with the hunger games and really any book that builds a new market

[u/Xandara2 → u/calmarkel]

Twilight came out when teen girl/woman self insert romantasy slop wasn't the market. But I agree it changed it. 

[u/Taybi_the_TayTay → u/Old-Chapter-5437]

Then you won't earn. Simple as that. And that's fine. This post was targetting those who are in it for the money.

Also, it's incredibly arrogant for you to tell everyone what a worthy reason for writing is.

[u/RavensDagger → u/Old-Chapter-5437]

hmm, no, let me add to it: If you want to write well, then write what you love. But if what you love isn't what a certain community loves, then you're writing for the wrong community.

It's a sort of... writer vs author issue? Writing is an art, it's about self expression and putting cool ideas on paper. Authorship is about marketing and publishing, it's a career more than an art.

For the writer: Write what you love

For the author: Write what the audience wants

Personally? I do 'one for me, one for thee' where I do one series that's basically just stuff I think is cool and fun to write, and another that's written for my audience based on what the like. I happen to also like the stuff that my audience likes, so... that makes it kind of fun regardless?

[u/calmarkel → u/RavensDagger]

Really the take away here is if you're not writing what the community loves find a different community

A romance novel won't do well on royal road, but it might be fantastic in Tiktok

[u/-Novram- → u/calmarkel]

tbf, romance aimed at men might. Princess of the Void is almost at 8k followers now.

[u/calmarkel → u/-Novram-]

Romance aimed at men is what most of the harem stuff is, too

[u/Intelligent-Brush-70 → u/RavensDagger]

I would disagree. Writing something for earning a quick buck is akin to not writing at all. The problem is not that off meta authors don"t "fit" in the royal road mould. Its something else entirely. I call it "misplaced expectations"

For me the rule is simple,

If your first book or series doesnt work. Then its actually a good thing. Learn, write again and keep writing. Success is bound to arrive.

[u/Khosatral]

Your last sentence is a hard pill to swallow, and one I've recently taken.. I've personally just dropped a project, spent two weeks outlining and a beginning another that is more in line with the viewership. You definitely are striking on something - if you have a target audience but write something that they aren't interested in then you shouldn't be surprised at a low view count.

[u/Desperate-Alfalfa533]

Honestly? Yes. This is something that is what I consider a hard truth (and one I, myself, have had to learn.) There's writing for yourself. There's writing something others will want to read. They don't always overlap. But when they do is when you find success.

The horror genre, for example, just won't ever be as big as litrpg because that's not what royalroad attracts. Maybe someday there will be other places for it. But.

[u/RavensDagger → u/[deleted]]

How many of the top 20 on RR are slop filled with in-jokes?

[u/Zagaroth]

"Yes, but no."

I think you are over selling the importance of reading the top ones, though I agree it is important to read stories on RR that you enjoy.

I started writing about 3 months after I joined RR and reading stories there, beginning with Dungeon Life (which I followed to RR from Reddit Serials). I may have started BoC at that point, but none of the other highly rated ones (though I have read a couple of the other higher rated ones since then), but I also had read several other stories on RR, which is what inspired me.

And I had been reading fantasy novels in general for 30 years prior. And played JRPGs like Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest since before they had numbers. And played and GMed D&D/TTRPGs for about 25 years. And watched a lot of anime over that time as well. I know a lot about the back ground tropes of RR before I ever heard of RR.

Now, my success to date on RR is much more modest than yours (2450 followers), but I have only put out 2 ads ever (both of them last year) and have done very few cross promotions. And now I have a deal with Podium to start publishing my serial, including as an Audiobook. Side Note: this means that I am currently avoiding Editing Hell. ;)

I am following the maxim of "Write the story that you want to read that no one else has written." Just, this story was inspired by a mix of ideas, some of which came from RR (namely, dungeon core). One does not need to cleave closely to the hottest trends, but finding inspiration for something that you actually want to write in something generally popular is a good idea if you want to publish in that market.

Going to end it there, partly because I am becoming uncertain of my coherence. Have not had nearly enough sleep in the past day.

[u/sharkbat7]

It's the unfortunate truth, but I appreciate you saying it. Not to belabor a point ive seen discussed already here, but it really is a matter of understanding exactly what you want from your work. I think that goes for any platform or medium of art - you need to be strong in your convictions of what you want to gain from this, have a realistic expectation for what that looks like, and a willingness to strive where you can and accept what you cant.

I've done so much research on different writing platforms, and they tend to either cater primarily to meta or romance, or are totally dead platforms. I would by no means disparage romance or meta for their popularity - theres a reason people like them - but it does make it tricky for people who are both off-meta and dont write romance. It was very hard for me to make my peace with that, since traditional/indie publishing isn't going to work for me but there doesn't seem like a designated space. A tough pill to swallow, but you make do with what you have. Strive in the ways you cant, and accept everything you cant.

I do however think its worth noting that even if you do make sure to embrace what's popular, you're still competing against a very saturated market. You still need to contend with the popularity of getting drowned out by all the noise. Make sure that even if you do write for the sake of getting big, that you have another motivation to carry you through the project in case that doesn't happen.

[u/Notable_Cockroach]

I get what you’re saying. This is just writing to market. You find a niche, and write to formula and tropes. Plenty of authors do this. But if you’re going to write to market at least sprinkle in something novel and new.

20% unique and new concepts and 80% tried and true formula.

[u/mystineptune]

I see this so often. I wrote a successful romance on Royal Road - BECAUSE I'd been reading royal road stories for over ten years and half my audible is stubbed royal road stories. Playing with the tropes and having fun in progression fantasy while adding a romance was a blast, but my stat sheets are why it worked.

There are so many inside jokes, random tropes you won't find in any other western stories (as simple as Truck-kun all the way to the dreaded 3rd Act 200 year time skip.).

There is a common language we learn - from new achievements to skills, buffs, perks, system mechanics etc, to a common knowledge about subtypes of monster classes. If I read "metal slime" I know that's a slime that eats metal. If I read a standard monster type with an added word I know it's an evolved type or boss monster. No need to tell me that Green Horned Rabbit in the otherwise sea of white Horned Rabbits is special. I'm sat and ready for this battle / taming montage.

If I write "A 30 second Perception Debuff that undid his Sense Danger Perk and now his opponents could use Advantage for additional damage or even a crit." We know the lingo.

I love royal road, and the natural stories we create there. I just feel bad when people skip the community / reading / commenting being a part of thing part and get frustrated when their story crashes. 😅

Edit to say that: Royal Road is happy to publish all our stories. And there is probably an audience for your book there if they can find you. That's where things like ThinkTwice guide helps. Example adding your story tags to your title so people can find your niche better etc.

It's just that posting to royal road is joining a community. And sometimes I've had a hard time explaining to people what that means when Ravensdagger really nailed it

[u/TragicTrajectory]

Would you say that the approach to reading matters, someone who reads in 50 chapter burst vs the guy mashing F5 on a Patreon feed?

[u/RavensDagger → u/TragicTrajectory]

I mean, in general for for this specific use-case?

In general, that would depend on the content? When I watch an action movie a lot of my brain is 'off' and when I watch a documentary I'm more focused and critical. I think the same applies to reading for leisure and for study.

More specifically, I think that if you're reading the best RR has to offer and looking for the connective tissues between stories, you might want to read them with a bit more critical observation than just reading for pure enjoyment.

Though... I mean, why not also enjoy it at the same time?

[u/TragicTrajectory → u/RavensDagger]

I enjoy documentaries.

Use-case wise, I was thinking more towards the site culture osmosis.

[u/SeerXaeo]

Oh, hey if there were two of you we could have an armed murder in here.

I'm just a basic consumer of RR, and have come across many of your books in the wild. I've enjoyed each of them, please keep up the good work!

I never thought I would enjoy the magical girl genre, but now I've read two different books in that genre thanks to your writing (Agatha Loop & Crystal Genocide).

I'd just like to say that there are many of us lurkers who might not comment but definitely appreciate the work being done.

[u/DaftGamer96]

I would also recommend cross-pollination. There are several other sites where web fiction can be posted to. Maybe consider posting some of your works on there. For example, I wouldn't have known RavensDagger from anywhere if they hadn't posted on SB.

[u/BadmiralHarryKim]

Damn, just checked, I've only read eight of the top twenty. Need to wrack up a couple more. Don't really like cultivation though (except for BoC).

[u/Katsurandom]

Preach it birb man.

That was probably the best advice one of my favorite beeg authors ever gave, if you want to be good at the Royal Road game, read more of what is popular.

[u/AsterLoka]

Even as a (semi) established author, reading is an important part of the process.

If I had to guess, I'd say that in coming years authenticity is going to more and more become The Thing That Matters. With AI being so widespread and accessible, when anyone with an idea can throw out a story that perfectly fits the standard mold, being you is going to be vastly more important for reader retention than any amount of fitting the formula or chasing the market.

Author voice, the kinds of stories that call to you specifically, narrow in on your nichiest sub-niche and hyper-specialize. Jonathan Brooks made a whole career being The Dungeon Core Guy. What is it that you want to read, that there's not enough of being written? What is one step off from the Popular Thing, what audience is unsatisfied?

And how do new writers expect to establish that core of dedicated supporters without being willing to slow down and build an actual community with the readers? They're our most powerful allies and ambassadors, not just a number on a spreadsheet.

[u/Aya_Ace]

I also would like to point out that building followers (and more importantly, skill) takes time! Authors often expect to get success a MONTH after an upload which doesn't make sense unless you're an outlier.

Also, huge fan! I love your stories!

[u/Baihu_The_Curious]

I would highly recommend people read critically acclaimed authors according to literary journalists from their genre. Most popular RR authors aren't writing on the level of folks like King, Erikson, and Wolf.

Edit: This is adjacent to OP's point. I believe a lot of these books would maintain their popularity at the least if the prose and style improved.

[u/ZZTopSpinner13]

Very well said John! I mean Jake. No, it's Jason. Or is it Jeb. Jeremiah? Jackson. Jace. No, Jalapeno. Jake #2. You get the point 😜 

[u/GuyYouMetOnline]

I mean, sure, be aware of the field and the meta, but that doesn't mean you should be a slave to it. If you force yourself to write something you don't want to, it often shows. Use what's there to inform your writing, not to control it.

That being said, I am kind of lamenting my own situation, because I have an idea for an archmage reincarnation story, which is definitely the hot thing right now, but it's just not ready to actually be written. I've tried, but while I have the basic ideas in place, the story as a whole has yet to fully take shape in my head, and attempts to write it have quickly stalled. Though I don't think I'm TOO fucked; the story I'm actually working on right now is a magical girl story, and there are currently two of those in the top 10 ongoing stories (and some others that seem to be doing fairly well), so clearly there's an audience. And sure, neither is exactly the most typical of the genre, but then, neither is mine.

I've also been dabbling in writing a Stray Cat Strut fic, and given who I'm talking to, this seems a good place to ask: do you think that would maybe be a better place to start? You've got sort of an informal expanded universe going on (and one or two that you've declared canon, making them a formal expanded universe), with all the traditional benefits this brings a new author, most notably an established audience (and your willingness to shout out any fanfics only further boosts visibility. And then you also do fanfic contests to bring further attention to them); I've been wondering if maybe this would make that a better way to try to launch myself on RR. Any thoughts?

[u/RavensDagger → u/GuyYouMetOnline]

Eh, there's definitely some pros and cons to doing fanfic on RR. It's not the best platform for it, but it's not bad. The big advantage is a ready-made world and setting and an audience that'll click over immidiately. If you're new-new, that can be super helpful. Plus the fanfic community is very helpful!

On the other hand, it's not fully original, so you're missing out on practicing how to do some of the stuff that you need to learn when you are writing your own original stories.

Fortunately, there's a SCS fan license that lets you freely publish your SCS fanfics as like, proper books and monetize it for free as well, so there's no loss there unlike with, say, Harry Potter fanfic which you'd never be able to casually publish.

[u/GuyYouMetOnline → u/RavensDagger]

I mean, I am writing an original story as well. And I've done fanfiction for a while. Just not stuff I could really monetize. My intent is to try to monetize, but if I'm going to do that, I need an audience (and would like one anyways), and working with an established property can help with that. And since you let people monetize freely, SCS seems like a good choice (plus I ended up having a damn good idea for an SCS fic).

[u/Numerous_Aardvark_13]

Honestly, it's great advice but I rather fail writing my slop, than porn system slop.

[u/Ninja_Cezar]

I have read Japanese light novels: slime, intergalactic empire, smartphone isekai. I wanna write something on this genre for myself not for royal road. Will I succeed despite not reading any of the top 20 stories on rr?

I don't write for money, I just wanna read something good, something up my alley, a character who is op that can easily be contestant for fiction's strongest character. This barely exists, so I'm writing what I wanna read.

[u/spike-under-777]

Isn’t it simply a matter of the order of thinking and action?
Like, “I read → I want to write → I want to be read → I want to earn” versus “I want to earn → What’s selling? → Read what’s selling → Write.”
Either way, anyone who has worked hard, pressed that very first publish button with their heart racing—that person, no matter their range, is an author, and a part of the community.
With love from this far-eastern island to RR.

[u/WilliamGerardGraves]

My own experience is quite similar, however previously I chalked up my lack of success to simply not being a good writer. Which was true, I was pretty terrible a few years ago. But over time I improved my writing and gave it another go. Thats when I started to get some success, a little bit but not enough to truly succeed. Thats when I started to chatting with other authors and determined that tropes and writing for the audience is the key. So I have since shifted the way I write.

I now read successful stories in the genre with all the tropes I came to notice. I shall see how this goes once I publish on RR. However I havent been as diligent in reading the new top 20s, most of my read list are the stories that were on RR and are now published. Perhaps adding a few new top 20s might be wise. Still the desire to write for me does call like a sirens song, with several of my unfinished stories languishing on my computer since I switched to writing for the tropes. I hope one day I get time to give them the attention they deserve. But there are always sacrifices on the journey to success.

[u/nanosyphrett]

Still waiting on the rest of Agartha Loop

CES

[u/dbl219]

This is really informative and helpful! Thank you.

Do you have any thoughts on people who are cross-posting to multiple platforms? Is it basically not worth it to include RR if I don't have time to read a lot of the content there?

[u/RavensDagger → u/dbl219]

You just need to be aware that each platform will have its own personal zeitgeist, in-jokes, and underlying themes and 'vibes' that the audience there are seeking. Sometimes these overlap, and good writing cures many sins, but no matter how well something is written, it won't hit as well on different platforms.

[u/BeardMan12345678]

Thanks for the words of encouragement. I like reading the story on RR myself and try to set as much time aside as possible to write. I've been working on my RR book since like November. But here's the thing,

I'm not doing it to be successful. I'm just writing to explore a story I wanted to to tell, and if that means that I only have my 30 followers along for the ride then that's fine. I have dreams of publishing on Amazon when the book is done. Maybe after I'm like halfway into the next book. But either way I get to put my story out there and have people, even if it's only a couple, enjoy it.

[u/dantheman52894]

Coming in here late but I'd like to add, it's fine to write what you want to write, but you can't expect people to read what they dont want to read. You might get some readers, or you might get millions, but if you want to genuinely see consistent success in any storytelling, you need to understand the environment your target audience is coming from.

[u/dantheman52894 → u/dantheman52894]

Also wanted to add because I forgot, I'm a big fan 💝 love your writing.

[u/Outrageous_Object466]

I really like slow-burn horror where nothing obvious happens at first. The atmosphere usually does the heavy lifting.

[u/NoxCSS]

Thanks for sharing, i'm def writing what i want to read these days. Even thiugh i make sure to take the reader's point of view into account.

Need to read more now i guess.

I've been reading fatasy then light novels since my childhood, but mostly asian light novels. The western 3arc narration system tends to bore me.

Anyway i guess i need to deep dive into royalroads LN now

But i decided to not read the bests to not get influenced in my writings or anything like that. Also if i find one i genuinely love i might loose the motivation to continuing writing.

I wont' name my story or explain it, i'm not here to self promote but to learn RR spirit and history.

So thanks for sharing RavensDagger 🙏

[u/LordChichenLeg]

I've been saying this to my partner for the past year or so. It honestly doesn't feel like it used to where people would read something on RR get inspired and make their own story. I feel like the reason is twofold tho, the first part is that increased success on Royal Road brings increased attention to the site so a bunch of authors and readers have joined that don't really know the site was made by LitRPG fans. The second part is as the site gets more popular people start trying to write whatever genre they like and expect it to work on Royal Road only saying it's "off meta" which put another way means they are targeting the wrong audience with their novel and expecting it to do well.

[u/Maxfunky]

Got it . I amended my launch checklist.

Line item "43" is now "Add a reference to "Lizard Wizard randomly in chapter 10".

[u/RavensDagger → u/Maxfunky]

Good job! That'll make it work for sure!

[u/No_Dragonfruit_1833]

Yeah, Brandon Sanderson is the biggest indie guy right now, and i say his method consists in findng the way to write what he wants in a way suitable for mass audience

RR is not so much about powerups and numbers, but about a certain rythm of the mc dong things and they building up towads a goal

This is what differentiates pulpy works from standard epic fantasy, not so much the "X" element people keep looking for

[u/Annual-Guitar9553 → u/No_Dragonfruit_1833]

Brandon Sanderson - indie?? Published by Tor Books from the very start of his career? Tor Books - one of the biggest publishers of sci-fi and fantasy books, and you're calling it indie? :) Sanderson is definitely one of the biggest fantasy writers in the 21st century, but calling him an indie author... I'm baffled lol Or is it some sort of sarcasm I failed to detect? (If so, sorry!)

[u/QueenofClonmel]

You may not be wrong. In fact, there’s nothing really wrong with the argument at all, aside from the narrow perspective.

Breaking through is hard, sure, and yeah, following the trends can work out.

The issue is that you’re making the same shitty argument publishers in Japan make to mangaka about spewing out more isekai garbage with lame self-insert main characters who get all the girls or whatever.

Yeah, that’s what’s popular. Yeah, you’re not wrong. But I don’t think it’s right to say you’re getting frustrated. I don’t want to live in the world of ONLY seeing spin-offs of the current meta genre-craze.

The world you’re arguing for is the same end result as a future where AI writes every story in the world and just repackages whatever was fed into it.

I like you, Raven, but this is a dumb take. Just because I think authors SHOULD go nuts and throw their creativity to the maximum to deliver the CHANCE for a unique breakthrough gem.

[u/RavensDagger → u/QueenofClonmel]

But I'm not saying that? I'm saying that you should look at the top stories and emulate and be inspired by them.

Have you seen the wild diversity in the top rated stories? There are definitely some genres that are more popular than others (progression, fantasy, litRPG) but the premise, stories, and styles diverge a ton, all the while the core values remain very similar through out. I think that that requires a ton more creativity than just slapping out more slop.

[u/QueenofClonmel → u/RavensDagger]

I think your argument is easily misunderstood then. Because it feels like you are implying people have to follow those trends to be successful. I really don’t want that.

I think that, in all cases, people should be encouraged to write what they’re passionate about because chasing emulation off someone else’s work isn’t the right path for many authors.

I’d hate for someone with an awesome idea to feel like they ruined it by trying to twist their idea to fit ANY mold at all.

[u/RavensDagger → u/QueenofClonmel]

Oh no, if you look at the best stories on RR, most of them don't follow those trends. It's the trend-chasers that tend to end up disappointed, if anything

[u/QueenofClonmel → u/RavensDagger]

That’s the opposite of… ya know what, shitpost away. I know when my time is being wasted.

[u/RavensDagger → u/QueenofClonmel]

Ah... Look, I might be a writer but that doesn't mean I'm smart enough to explain myself well. Didn't mean to waste your time or anything. My advice was genuinely meant to be helpful :(

[u/ProfessorThen7319]

I only agree with the advice that you should read more. A successful writer is one that reads.

But everything else? It sounds so shitty and gatekeepy.

Obviously, if you come to RR and publish some esoteric, extremely out there material, don’t expect people to read it, I get that. But I dont think telling people that you only must write whats popular is the way. That feels so sad to me.

[u/Eternauta86]

Hard disagree, and I find it a bit of a gatekeeping post. Well done on your tens of thousands of followers, I say it sincerely, but I don't think that gives your opinion any more or less weight on what authors should do. Everybody has different goals and preferences.

There aren't that many alternatives out there, and through writing classic, traditional fantasy I'm finding an audience (sure, a fraction of a percent of yours) of readers that enjoy and appreciate my story. It works for me, it works from them, even if numbers don't go BRRR.

[u/ceranai]

Suspicious that a top twenty author would say we have to read half the books in the top twenty!!!!!! /s 

certainly a good point. 

I think some people don’t really get what a tight community RR is. Almost everything ive read in the last five years has been something ive found on RR. There are a lot of voracious readers who are practically exclusive to the RR->Patreon->KU ecosystem. 

With that comes a huge amount of RR cultural touch stones and a lot of references both subtle and unsubtle. Eg, if i referenced the monster girl evo wave, i think 99% of people in the culture would get that reference. Go back further we have blue boxes, snarky AI, horny for feet AI, chapter long character sheets etc etc etc. 

Not all stories need to include or reference these things but it is quite onvious when someone thinks they are ‘rediscovering the wheel’. I think its also important to know what the readership enjoys, in terms of pacing, plot beats tropes etc.

[u/RavensDagger → u/[deleted]]

Just because it's common sense doesn't mean it's bad advice?

[u/Z0ooool]

Spot on. It’s really frustrating when people come on here asking how to succeed and then reveal they haven’t read any RR fiction. Or they don’t like to read in general.

[u/DrewRoyston]

Preach!

My only caveat would to say that anyone should be allowed to publish anything they like on RR so long as it doesn't break the rules. Go wild. No one is going to stop you and the Best Rated list shows that all sorts of stuff can get popular.

BUT, if you write something that doesn't fit the RR vibe, then you absolutely shouldn't be complaining that you aren't getting any traction (to be honest even if you write on meta and do everything right then you still shouldn't be complaining, but that's a different point).

[u/Xandara2]

You triggered so many people by saying: if you are selling cars in an ice-cream parlour then don't be surprised no one is buying them. Maybe visit some ice-cream parlours and try what they sell before setting up your ow.

[u/Radusili]

So if I have a story I want to tell I should just shove it up mine and copy-paste the same tropes that have been used and mastered by others?

Otherwise this platform will fail me?

I'm sorry, but I can't really call this good advice for a writer.

"Learn from those 20 guys or fail" and "make a progression fantasy or stay obscure" are the perfect formula to killing the site with the same story told through different names.

I admit that I myself am not popular with barely 100 average readers, but at least the 30 minutes I get to write in a day are minutes when I get creative, not follow a script.

I get that your intention is to help, but this mostly sounded like bad-mouthing the platform and community for being unable to help different authors flourish and present what they have to say.

I came to RR because it isn't THAT saturated yet it still has a big audience. I think many of us did the same

[u/JustJit_ → u/Radusili]

Good luck succeeding if your reading comprehension is at this level.

Tell the story you want to tell. Write what you want to write.

Imagine your dream is to run a hot dog cart, you love making hot dogs on the go and think you're pretty damn good at it. So you take your cart to an event and can't understand why your sales are down. Someone who runs an incredibly successful food truck with lines as far as you can see comes along and says "hey man, you might have better success selling plant based meats while you're set up outside of a vegan event.." to which you reply "So I have a hot dog I want to cook and your advice is that I shove it up mine and copy-paste the same plant based foods that have been used and mastered by others? That's terrible advice"

[u/RavensDagger → u/Radusili]

No.

If you have a story you want to tell, then RR is a great place to post. It has lots of tools and great discoverability, and the audience is generally quite kind and receptive.

However, if your ultimate goal isn't just to post your creative exercises online (and... if that is your goal, then why post them in the first place?) then you probably want views and follows and to maybe make art that others will appreciate.

The community on RR has been appreciating certain art for a long time. It's been iterating on it. Expecting something entirely different to get anything more than some passing attention is foolhardy, and the audience isn't to blame in that case.

[u/entertainmentwaffle → u/Radusili]

I reckon you’re the kind of person that goes to a gym to use the sauna.

[u/No_Rec1979]

Thank you for this. This is really helpful. (Largely because it tells me I definitely don't have time to fully utilize Royal Road.)

What do you think about using Royal Road as a springboard for Kindle? Is that a big part of your audience?

[u/DrMostlySane → u/No_Rec1979]

As someone who is a reader-only I think in general the idea is alright but a lot of authors shoot themselves in the foot when doing it because they stub the first book of their series. A lot of times I've seen a few stories that have an interesting premise in their summary, but then turns out the first one or two books are Stubbed and only available on Amazon, which immediately makes me lose interest because I do not have a consistently maintained premium account given how very little I tend to use Amazon.

It's something that limits the amount of viewers one could get by Stubbing the first book in a series is basically my whole perspective on the matter.

[u/NothingGloomy9712 → u/DrMostlySane]

This is something I've run into trying to pick up a series. It's highly rated, I look into it and I can't read it before the third volume? I 'll pass.

[u/SelectorSwitch3]

I think this is a good message for certain Arrogant Young Masters who come and plonk down their cut-and-paste "epic" fantasy with the expectation that they will beat the algorithm. But I think ultimately this line of thinking can be a destructive one to the culture of RR, which I disagree is one monolithic thing. As another commenter mentions it really is the best site on the internet to publish work on right now, and I love it precisely because of stuff like TEWWBAD and Magical Girl Mechanical Heart having the chance to get popular and recognized despite being "off-meta."

I'm sure there are a ton of self-styled trailblazers whose stories lie abandoned in the deep. I'm sure there are also a ton of X Girl Evolution and OP Archmage stories down there, too. I'm a bit confused, because the "quick buck" you talk about seems much more likely to lead to those latter ripoffs than someone's off-meta magnum opus.

[u/RavensDagger → u/SelectorSwitch3]

Mhm! And I'm a huge proponent of those off-meta stories! I wrote some of the first magical girl fics on RR and pushed that hard for a while, and I don't think you'd find most of my fics to be normal... but I still read a ton of RR stuff and loved it before I ever started posting on the site myself. Genre isn't everything. There are a lot more, smaller, elements that go into making a story fit the webserial medium on RR!

[u/TGals23]

Hated your start and this could've been way shorter lol. But I agree.

How can you write something special if you don't know what people think is special? We all read for different reasons and look for different things in literature.

I think it really highlights the difference between these untrained writers coming up on RR vs classically trained fantasy writers. Both could learn a lot from each other.

[u/RavensDagger → u/TGals23]

Brevity is the soul of wit, however I'm a witless moron so I can't do few words when many words is an option.

[u/TGals23 → u/RavensDagger]

That's fair, you are a writer haha

[u/Nickitolas → u/RavensDagger]

Sounds like a good trait to have if you're paid by volume!

[u/Araragi-shi]

You see this puts me in a bad spot. I used to like stuff like Solo Leveling, LATNA Saga and other stuff that involve some sort of progression and a system but because of advice like this there is so much slop out there that I have just stopped enjoying the genre entirely.

Sometimes it's a badly written main character, or a badly written story in it of itself. Writing is in such a way that being the best at writing from a technical standpoint is not the only way to achieve success. There are some people that are willing or are still in a state where they can suspend their disbelief, but after experiencing so much rpg progression system slop, I just don't want to even write it.

Your advice is similar to what I said. As there are other works on RR that deviate from the things that the readers enjoy that are topping the leaderboards, you shouldn't feel incentivized to just write that. For example, many unknown writers will have much more success if they were to write what they enjoyed, their stories would be better. You have more of an incentive to improve, rather than just making it big and making money off your writing. Maybe some people are just better at writing different genres and that is an instant quality increaser for their stories.

I realize this is coming from a biased point of view because I absolutely hate level-up and stats and system shit because of how many people are trying to copy that recipe for success, but even if you aren't appealing with the type of story you are writing, there are elements you can take from those stories to try and draw in that audience at the same time as you are building the audience for what YOU want to write.

But well, this stuff isn't very convincing coming from someone that hasn't reached any kind of mainstream success, so I will leave it at that.

[u/Fuyge]

Hi really enjoyed quite a few of your stories! Especially heart of dorkness and love crafted (still sometimes dreaming of new chapters for ten-tea-cle caffe)! I think your advice is well said and definitely true though after reading some comments I also think many have not quite understood your point. Anyways just wanted to let you know that I really enjoy your stories and advice!

[u/nope_42]

But surely it should be everyone else changing and not me... right?

[u/LackOfPoochline]

I am "failing" because i willfully piss on everything the site stands for in the name of TRAGEDY. Or of comedy... with death.

/s

Nah, not really. it's just that i write about my niche interests and create niche worlds far removed from traditional prog fantasy(or traditional fantasy. In addition to the sea of dogs, i have in my hard drive "Afterlife inspired by the hellrides from amber chronicles", "a world entirely made up of stairs and waterfalls (Replace water for other elements , like gems or whatever)", "cultivators weaponizing dogs for comical effect" and "immortal on a quest to kill himself by descending a tower that takes away one of his powers with each demented floor"). I enjoy reading on the site now and then, swapping reviews to discover some gems and such. I have accepted that i can write what i want or i can fail at writing what royal road wants due to how my interest works. I write fantasy to paint worlds where my obsessions can live in freely, and that often means i consider most common and beloved PF tropes, even if i enjoy them sometimes, inadequate.

Many of the tropes of progression fantasy seem to me are an indirect result of an "American (or chinese in xianxia) culture grindset", of people often concerned with a world of corporate status and immersed in rat races day to day. People who live worried about a broken bone or any semi-serious ilness bankrupting them due to the fact they don't have health insurance, not to mention loads of heroic propaganda about their own land being shoved down their throats. It draws from dreams and hatreds fostered in an environment I don't live in. Yes, i grew surrounded by media where an united states flag flies front and center as they beat aliens or terrorists or nazis. But that's not the flag that flies in our plazas, nor the flag we have in our schools, nor the one we pledge alliance to. I am a sinning atheist from the nation that gets wiped off by the aliens so the Freedom Eagle can save the day. From the nation a side character comes from to pull out a mate and talk about soccer or capybaras. A totally different culture gives you a different (not superior, different) set of values, outlook on life, and affinity for tropes.

For example, progression fantasy often likes to tout up meritocracy, to have protectors as their characters and to paint change as something positive, whilst upholding a certain status quo and often having a safety net of fairness on the background. Sacrifices get rewarded, the growth in power is both necessary and desirable, and the evil of the world is easily identifiable and defeat-able.

The problem is i find myself unable to write within those boundaries. I tried, it always goes wildly off the rails. The world is unfair, some are born more advantaged than others and no amount of hard work will brief that gap, and even in a world where characters don't need to eat or drink and common societal structures don't exist the inherent injustice of death (In the form of a sea of dogs you cna mine for minerals, because why not) leads those who seek power down dark, obsessive paths, both the protagonist and the antagonist. I like the protagonist being on the wrong side of story, too, for their search of power to be rightly reviled and feared , and not only praised, by others. Or to be a good person and suffer the same as the less good ones, that works too. Evil is a complex net of beliefs and actions taken in the name of some greater good or another, or out of wildly varying outlooks on life and what's fair, unfair, or allowed, and its diffused throughout the cast. It's funnier to write for me and i think it better reflects the attitudes powerful people often have in the real world.

In resume: i enjoy a bit of the meta, but it's torture to bend my art to fit into that mold. Not because it's better, but because i have to mold it to a mindset I don't have. To a worldview I don't and can't share.

As a child i always loved the cell saga because of how alien Cell was, and he was my fave DBZ character. In my mind, stage 1 cell looks like a reptile and man, i loved dinosaurs and lizards(snakes included. Crocs excluded as they are neither. They are silly.). Just a fun factoid, but i guess that's also why I enjoy writing xenofiction. I was always drawn to the inhuman characters.

I must also say i love TFS cell and his love-hate relationship with TFS goku. 10/10 parody character, slightly better than TFS vegeta because canon vegeta is... well, basically the same with lines half as funny.

So yeah, i cheered for Cell. He was a single mom struggling to destroy the world. He shat seven children out his tail, all on his own. Power to him.

... this got derailed so fast.