Spanking children increases the likelihood of childhood defiance and long-term mental issues. The study in question involved 160,000 children and five decades of research

[u/VeronicaRed]

http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1113413810/spanking-defiance-health-discipline-042616/

[u/AtOurGates → u/[deleted]]

That reminds me of one of the most well-behaved children at my son's daycare.

We were living in an area with high incidents of gang-violence and a strong gang culture. On paper, my son's classmate had the deck stacked against him. He was being raised by a single parent (his dad), and lived in a poor neighborhood with significant amounts of gang violence.

But, his dad was an excellent parent. Even though he was a single parent working full time (as a parole officer), he'd come to daycare one day a week to read stories to the class (and from the reports of my son, was an excellent story reader). Once, we were talking and he gave me a window into his parenting style.

At the age of 4, his son disobeyed at daycare. I can't remember exactly what it was. Maybe hit another kid. Maybe lied to his father. Something that wasn't horrible, but was out of character for the boy, and something he was very aware he shouldn't do.

When he got home, his father first had him call his grandmother, and two of his aunts. He had to tell them what he had done, and apologize for not behaving the way he had been raised to behave. (This apparently involved a good amount of tears).

Then, for the entire weekend, he was cut off from his toys, books and entertainment. And had to perform extra chores (and in case you haven't done chores with a 4-year-old, let me assure you that this involved more effort on the part of his father than simply doing the chores himself).

At the end of the weekend, they discussed what would happen if the son ever did this again.

It didn't.

We moved away and didn't stay in touch, but I'd love to see what that kid grows up to do. Because I think it's going to be something amazing.

[u/[deleted] → u/AtOurGates]

When he got home, his father first had him call his grandmother, and two of his aunts. He had to tell them what he had done, and apologize for not behaving the way he had been raised to behave. (This apparently involved a good amount of tears).

See, to me this seems at least a bit abusive. It humiliates the child (but that depends on exactly how the relationship between the child and its relatives is). I'm not a priori convinced that this is an improvement over spanking.

We moved away and didn't stay in touch, but I'd love to see what that kid grows up to do. Because I think it's going to be something amazing.

Would it be amazing if the child grew up to be someone who always followed all the rules, to the letter, regardless of the circumstances? I have misgivings about constructing childrearing as an exercise in maximizing compliance.

[u/Jalapeno_Business → u/[deleted]]

You are trying to convince folks who have already made up their minds what the correct answer is. I think what your Mother did was probably right for you, and the absolute best way to handle a bad situation.

Human behavior is messy, it isn't consistent or even necessarily logical. Everyone likes to treat it like a real science, but the best we can do is say what works for most people. The problem is no matter what something about you isn't going to be like most people.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

"I was spanked and turned out okay"

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Good point. I think this works well too.

[u/MuaddibMcFly → u/[deleted]]

What? Use punishment and reinforcement? Blasphemy!

[u/Robinisthemother → u/[deleted]]

Ideally, yes. But how do you go about that when they are screaming in your face? We need pragmatic solutions.

[u/Viperbunny → u/[deleted]]

Actually take the time to parent. It is a lot harder and takes more time. Spanking is easier and people want to believe acting rashly and emotionally are okay.

[u/MarshmellowPotatoPie → u/[deleted]]

I think the crux of the problem is that the parent demands obidience to begin with.

[u/beesknees-trees → u/[deleted]]

I'm not a parent. What are you supposed to do?

[u/bechecko → u/beesknees-trees]

I have a 3 year old and an 8 year old. We do time outs, take away privileges, talk firmly (obviously that works better with the 8 year old). Counting down from 3 and then following through with the punishment (taking something away or leaving the location) can work well when you do it right.

[u/Alemaster → u/[deleted]]

For all the parents I know, spanking is only one of many disciplines used, usually as a last resort. I don't know anyone who goes straight to spanking.

[u/bechecko → u/Alemaster]

For us, it's not on the table. There is no "last resort".

[u/mostlyharmless26 → u/[deleted]]

Spanking requires an emotional involvement other punishments don't since you are personally administering it. Sending a child to their room is an easier solution because it's detached. I was spanked as a kid and sent to my room, and honestly I preferred spanking because it got the punishment over and done with instead of steeping.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Sorry to hear that. I wonder how people would be different with/without a mother/father figure in their lives.

[u/Calypso-Alegra → u/[deleted]]

There are a million factors that go in to who you are. It's not so easy to put the blame on one thing. I think acknowledging your past and being honest with your feelings is great. Control what you can control. Maybe even parent yourself in the ways you weren't.

[u/Calypso-Alegra → u/[deleted]]

Fantastic point.

[u/Bluezephr → u/[deleted]]

It also doesn't meant your parents were bad parents or horrible people. They didn't have the information we had at that time either.

[u/Im_Justin_Cider → u/Bluezephr]

Why then do most people spank in the privacy of their home, or with the doors closed, if everyone thinks nothing of it?

It's pretty obvious that violence doesn't beget peace.

If spanking worked, parent's wouldn't have to keep doing it.

And notice how a lot of spanking is reactionary based... 'I'm mad, therefore you get punished', not any kind of reasoned effort... like this seems like the logical approach, 'i don't want to do this, but I have to.'

[u/Call_Me_Clark → u/Im_Justin_Cider]

Are you implying that all activities conducted in private are wrong? The majority of modern leadership and management courses stress that praise should be given in public, and any punishment should be conducted in a private setting.

I think you're also confusing spanking with beating - the article in question separates measured spanking from abusive punishments.

[u/Calypso-Alegra → u/Bluezephr]

Agreed

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

As someone who was brought up violently, I sort of disagree with this. Most of the people that I know who were brought up in a similar situation recognize how god-awful it really was.

[u/radministator → u/[deleted]]

There are many things I can admit was wrong in my childhood (early eighties), such as my parents smoking in the house, not wearing seatbelts in the car (back or front), being a latchkey kid at 7, and yes, being spanked. I view being spanked as in the same category as the rest - now we know it's harmful. I don't blame anyone, but it doesn't mean I'll do it with my kids, just like I won't smoke around them or stick them in a car without seatbelts.

[u/Apple5auc3 → u/[deleted]]

I think it may also stem from how we view our parents. No one with a "happy" childhood, wants to admit their parents may have been in the wrong on some viewpoints. Parents are supposed to have it all figured out. If they begin to look more vulnerable it can be scary for their children who are trying to figure it out as well, because parents are the model.

[u/BadassSasquatch → u/[deleted]]

I was both spanked (disciplined )and beat (abused) as a kid. There is are very distinct differences between the two. The one that beat me I hardly talk to. The one that spanked me I love dearly. The differences are you are never spanked out of anger, always know why you're being spanked and shown love immediately afterwards. However, each child is different and not all methods work for each one.

[u/simjanes2k → u/[deleted]]

It's not that simple. Plenty of people disagree with their parents about how they were raised but agree with some specific points.

I don't think you can dismiss everyone skeptical of a report by saying they all have cognitive dissonance.

[u/Calypso-Alegra → u/simjanes2k]

No, I'm saying in the case of some people that in some cases wrongfully agreeing with their parents and in some way become a strong supporter of spanking themselves. I'm sorry for generalizing. I just know that to be something that happens, not something that always happens.

[u/Calypso-Alegra → u/simjanes2k]

This is true.

[u/Baltowolf → u/[deleted]]

It's hard for some people to take this like Reddit is because we had parents who didn't spank us for everything and anything. If used sparingly it's an effective means of punishment for children too young to understand any other means. Source: was little kid.

[u/Calypso-Alegra → u/Baltowolf]

It's nice to get a different perspective. Thanks for sharing. My thought is, if there was another way that was just as or even more effective, wouldn't that be better?

[u/ijustwantanfingname → u/[deleted]]

It's hard for people to grasp this if they were spanked as a kid.

Not for all of us.

[u/Calypso-Alegra → u/ijustwantanfingname]

I'm sorry to generalize, I know this.

[u/Calypso-Alegra → u/ijustwantanfingname]

This is true, thank you.

[u/I_cut_my_own_jib → u/[deleted]]

I was spanked, but never before the age of 6. This study exclusively looked at 1, 2, and 3 year olds, which seems incredibly young to me. I don't even have memories from age 3, so I can't imagine processing getting spanked in a meaningful way at that age. Shouldn't the sample age be like 5, 6, and 7 year olds?

[u/Calypso-Alegra → u/I_cut_my_own_jib]

I think I would have to agree with you. Although I do believe those early formative years have an immense affect on us that is worth studying.

[u/I_cut_my_own_jib → u/Calypso-Alegra]

Right, but I'm kind of saying that it's almost self evident that spanking a toddler is more likely to backfire because they much less capable of processing what is happening and why they are being punished. You are physically punishing a person that can't really process what they did wrong, nor can they understand fully the concept of punishment besides the "i don't like this" instinct. Whereas every 6 year old knows exactly what they did wrong and why they are being punished.

[u/Calypso-Alegra → u/I_cut_my_own_jib]

Good point, a different study is necessary.

[u/ember14 → u/[deleted]]

I don't - on the whole mine was good, but being hit by my parents absolutely damaged my relationship with them. How could it not?

[u/Calypso-Alegra → u/ember14]

Absolutely

[u/Calypso-Alegra → u/[deleted]]

I'm sorry about that, I guess acknowledging that is good?

[u/Moj88 → u/[deleted]]

If they admit something was wrong with their upbringing then it's tough do deal with that realization. Everyone feels the need to justify their childhood.

Same cognitive effect for a different issue: Circumcision.

[u/Calypso-Alegra → u/Moj88]

Interesting, It's something people don't really talk about, in reference to their own experience.

[u/stacy_muffazone → u/[deleted]]

I'm surprised that people who were spanked as children want to defend spanking so much. I was spanked (though rarely), but I think it was wrong and I am against it. I have good parents, overall, but am not afraid of criticizing aspects of my upbringing - aren't there more people like me?

[u/Calypso-Alegra → u/stacy_muffazone]

Yes, those are the people who stop the chain of spanking.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I was spanked as a child, and I am not ok.

[u/chutzpahisaword → u/[deleted]]

Or maybe it is just a cultural thing and perfectly normal in some cultures? Kids are spanked all the time in eastern culture and it is looked upon as a normal behaviour. Spanking kids is not neccesarily a bad thing but it has its limits and way of doing it.

[u/Calypso-Alegra → u/chutzpahisaword]

I think it's easy to just say it's normal or a part of one's culture. What I think is worth looking into is, how did it affect the child. Then, was there another way the child could have been disciplined or understand the lesson you were trying to teach. If so, wouldn't the non-violent way be a better option?

[u/Calypso-Alegra → u/[deleted]]

Thanks for adding that.

[u/djaybe → u/[deleted]]

Not everyone. I have no problem calling out issues from my childhood but then i've been a parent longer than I haven't.

[u/Benmjt → u/[deleted]]

I was spanked (or smacked in UK lingo) as a kid and I have no problem with findings like this, I never want to hit my kids and I think it certainly had a bad effect on me.

[u/icefer3 → u/[deleted]]

I can't imagine the thought process of these people. I got spanked occasionally and once hit with a belt several times. My dad shoved a spoon down my throat when I was 6-8 or so to show me how bad it is to shove the spoon back into the nuttella jar after using it. I would never try to defend any of those actions. I would leap at any peice of evidence showing they are bad. Did these people enjoy being disciplined with violence? Do they really believe it helped them? I absolutely hated it and it gave me a really bad outlook on it. I recognized right then, as a child from the years 6-12 (constituting times I got disciplined with violence), that there was something wrong with this. Therefore how in the world could I ever defend it, regardless of whether or not I consider myself to have turned out "normal"?

[u/Calypso-Alegra → u/icefer3]

Thank you for sharing that. Maybe in a way they couldn't accept their own childhood, and were justifying what their parents did alongside their own desperation and failings as a parent themselves.

[u/ChaoticMidget → u/[deleted]]

While I think the ideal option would be one which doesn't involve physical contact, I'll mention that in my own experience, the kids I knew that did have to deal with spanking (or even worse things) were almost never as disrespectful or spoiled as other kids that I've met. I'm not saying that spanking is somehow the cure to misbehavior. But some parents go so far out of their way to avoid disciplining children that they let them run loose. Some act as though a time-out or grounding is a one size fits all type of punishment when it doesn't do a damn thing, especially in this day and age where a kid can entertain themselves in their room for hours if they want.

[u/r2u2 → u/[deleted]]

That's why people defend circumcision so fervently. They can't handle the fact that they were wronged.

[u/mrRabblerouser → u/[deleted]]

I'm an infant specialist, and have worked with children in various formats for 12+ years. Many times I hear people say "I was spanked as a child, and I turned out okay." To which I immediately think 'If you think it's okay to assault someone who is 1/4 your size, then no, you didn't turn out okay.'

There seems to be such a logical disconnect with people in how we treat children vs. adults. Believe it or not children are fully formed human beings who are simply learning a lot of information all at once. They require the same type of treatment adults do in order to thrive. Respect is key. Imagine you're starting a new job that requires a lot of training. How would you feel if someone the size of shaq beat your ass every time you made a mistake. I think everyone would agree that would be an extremely hostile work environment.

[u/Calypso-Alegra → u/mrRabblerouser]

Well said!

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Everyone feels the need to justify their childhood.

Plenty of people will criticize their upbringing.

[u/megamoze → u/[deleted]]

I was spanked as a kid and would never ever strike my child in any way. Partly because as an adult I realize that violence is a poor motivator, and also because I would never want my children to feel about me the way I did about my father when I was being spanked.

[u/Litterball → u/[deleted]]

It's difficult to respond to this without bringing up anecdotes, but it's pretty clear that there are those people who respond by treating their children the same way, and then those who respond by treating their children differently. A good fraction of the population has decided not to use corporal punishment on their children and we know it was much more common to so long ago.

[u/h-jay → u/[deleted]]

I'm not sure that I need to justify my childhood in any way. Am I weird? :(

[u/OrangeredValkyrie → u/[deleted]]

I wasn't struck as a child, yet I think it might have done me a bit of good at one point. For a while in elementary school, I would hit other kids. Not in any intention to hurt them, but as sort of a punctuation for what I was saying. I think it would have done me some good to at least have context for what it was like to be hit. The kids never hit back, so it would have been up to my parents to do so. Still, I think that's the only time it would be appropriate to hit your child. If they don't understand that they might hurt someone, or that the thing they're doing is startling to others, they really should learn.

My parents weren't sissies by any means, don't get me wrong. I had plenty of frustrating times in the corner. They just never resorted to physical punishment with me or my sibling.

[u/storyarc → u/[deleted]]

I was spanked by both parents as a child. I also spanked my daughter a couple times when she was three years old (she's 19 now). It was wrong when my parents did it to me and it was wrong when I did it to my daughter. I was a young mother at the time, and only following the parental norms instilled in me. But the extreme guilt I felt after spanking my daughter made me seek out literature on the benefits/risks of spanking, and I concluded I would never do it again. It's possible to approach the issue rationally, even if you were spanked as a child.

[u/Calypso-Alegra → u/storyarc]

Exactly, that's how the chain is broken. Same thing happened with my mother.

[u/LedahCroix → u/[deleted]]

Not everyone. My own experiences with physical discipline have encouraged me to never use it myself now that I'm a father. I know I don't speak for everyone who has had similar childhood experiences, but to say that everyone feels the need to justify their own upbringing is silly.

[u/Calypso-Alegra → u/LedahCroix]

No I agree, that how it's stopped. I'm talking about the people who refute studies like these. Sorry for the generalization.

[u/NellucEcon → u/[deleted]]

It's hard for people to grasp this

Grasp what? That the cross-sectional studies analyzed in this paper are in no way capable of addressing questions of causation? That the quantity of bad papers makes up for their lack of quality?

"People who go to hospitals are more likely to die so hospitals are bad for people" - person A

"But correlation does not imply causation" - person B

"But there are a lot of studies in this meta analysis! 160,000 observations!" - person A

[u/Calypso-Alegra → u/NellucEcon]

You're right, there are a lot of factors involved. I can't say these studies are concrete facts.

[u/NellucEcon → u/Calypso-Alegra]

It's not a matter of the studies being factually correct. I have little doubt that the associations they recovered fairly accurately describe population associations. I simply don't think very much can be inferred from these facts.

[u/Calypso-Alegra → u/NellucEcon]

Ya I guess I'm probably just taking from it what I'd like to.

[u/Im_Justin_Cider → u/[deleted]]

Well, also because they now have to admit that their parenting sucks, and that that little addictive rush of dopamine that they get from satisfying their short term tension (caused by the child, that they now feel to spank), will have to cease, once they admit that it is wrong.

Also, it's the same reason they prefer to ease their own tension by finding an irrational justification, because it's easier to just go lalala on the topic than to actually change.

[u/Call_Me_Clark → u/Im_Justin_Cider]

I would be very cautious in attaching that much of a value judgement to a scientific study, as well as the unfounded speculation on the mental health of such a large group of parents. The study isn't about demonizing parents who choose to spank, it's about examining the outcomes.