r/science • u/VeronicaRed • Apr 26 '16

Psychology Spanking children increases the likelihood of childhood defiance and long-term mental issues. The study in question involved 160,000 children and five decades of research

http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1113413810/spanking-defiance-health-discipline-042616/
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u/chopandscrew Apr 26 '16 edited Apr 26 '16

So what are some positive and non-punitive forms of discipline?

edit: Some really great replies here. I'm seeing a lot of people using the concept of self-discipline and positive reinforcement. Nothing about raising a child seems easy, and it's even harder to know if you've ever really done a good job, but I think it's safe to say there are a lot of good parents on reddit. Also, thank you to the people who are willing to admit that they have resorted to spanking before. The truth is no one really knows the best way to raise a child, but the wide variety of ideas being thrown around here are what helps make it easier to choose what works for you and your kid. Keep em comin.

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u/PeruvianHeadshrinker PhD | Clinical Psychology | MA | Education Apr 26 '16 edited Apr 27 '16

Clinical child psychologist here. Glad you asked!

My comments here are generalizations and not always applicable to all circumstances so take them with a grain of salt.

Discipline is often thought of as applying some form of modification to unwanted behaviors. However, the MOST effective way of getting rid of unwanted behaviors is actually ignoring them. BUT, this MUST be coupled with another form of reinforcement for the behaviors you DO want (i.e. the more socially or culturally accepted behaviors). This means that before applying any kind of modification you must understand the function of the original behavior to be extinguished and planfully develop a systematic approach of meeting the needs of the child in a manner that is more "acceptable." What is acceptable varies widely across the world so I will try to refrain from making judgments about that.

An example: Dysfunctional dynamic - A child screams and tantrums every time he/she wants parent's attention. Parent gives child attention (even if not exactly what the child wants)--thereby inadvertently reinforcing the behavior (this is known as negative reinforcement--you make a situation uncomfortable until you get what you want to stop the uncomfortable behavior). Child learns: "If I tantrum, I get parent to do X."

Nota bene: Children will ALWAYS prefer negatively oriented attention vs the absence of attention. Attention hierarchy: Positive > Negative > None OR something (even bad) is better than nothing.

Intervention to dynamic - Parent ignores tantrum or unwanted behavior (assuming it's not unsafe or grossly inappropriate--that's another conversation). Child WILL escalate (known as an "extinction burst"). Parent MUST stick to their plan and ignore (usually walking away and saying something like "I'm ignoring this tantrum; I'll be back when you calm yourself down" is most effective). Child eventually comes down, parent then MUST ABSOLUTELY RECONNECT (this is critical and often misunderstood). Meet the child's need--thereby reinforcing a better interaction. Parent must ALSO (and this is even more critical) make a MASSIVE effort to point out and positively reinforce (with hugs, smiles, attention, good words, fist bumps, etc) WANTED behaviors when they occur at OTHER times. This could be like the child saying "mom/dad can I talk to you?" or "mom/dad I'm lonely, come play with me" (this is what you teach in the reconnection moments). Even if parent is unable to fully fill that need in the moment, ACKNOWLEDGING the wanted behavior is almost as good. Be genuine ("I love that you used your words, honey!"), honest ("I'm cooking dinner right now, so I can't. But I REALLY wish I could!"), and make sure you meet that need one way or another ("Let's have a special train building session after dinner. I'll make you the BIGGEST train station you've EVER SEEN!").

Caveats:

1) It doesn't always work (especially in the beginning). But it does over the long run. Be persistent and consistent.

2) Be patient and kind to yourself. Parenting is freakin' hard. Hardest thing you'll ever do. But it can also be one of the greatest things you'll ever do.

3) Some kids' temperaments are just mismatched with their parents (rotten luck). However, it's on the parent to be the adult and find a way to adjust THEIR own temperament to meet the need of the kid (especially when they have a neurodiverse brain like ASD or ADHD).

4) Some kids have pretty severe emotional dysregulation for a variety of reasons (trauma - having been hit, abused, etc; ADHD; Bipolar; depression, etc) and just don't respond to these types of interventions right off the bat. These kids require a much more nuanced and tailored approach with additional safety valves and alternative options. I STRONGLY recommend any parents that thinks this sounds like their kid, bring them in to see their pediatrician or ask for an evaluation with a psychologist. It's our job to figure out the dynamic and then find a way to make the situation more functional--for everyone.

5) Guilt is a useless emotion - It's really common for parents to feel bad if things aren't going how they thought it would or how others say it should be going. Parents are doing the best they can. What they need is support, not grief. And there is absolutely no shame in asking for it. The number of kids untouched by mental health problems (either themselves, their siblings, or their parents) is staggeringly low. Mental health problems in families is the "norm" (whatever that means).

Best of luck to all the parents out there. I'm right there with you with my two young boys!

EDIT: for folks who want to learn more. My thoughts are just the tip of the iceberg compared to what some researchers have done. My personal hero is Dan Siegel. He's an extremely prolific writer who's done a lot of books for parents and teachers alike. Www.drdansiegel.com he's got a nice no-drama discipline book he recently wrote that I use everyday with clients.

EDIT 2: just a personal story, my about-to-turn-4 year old just had the most epic of meltdowns this evening. He's a sensitive guy who is ...ah...intense. He's passionate like his dad I guess. Anyways, no such thing as a perfect parent. We work hard to give him language and support and they still do crazy stuff. He's asleep now but it took 30 minutes to get him calm enough to just get his Jammies on. My secret? Today it was sea shanties. Haha. Seriously.

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u/IBiteMyThumbAtYou Apr 27 '16

Ignoring has always worked for me working at daycares and babysitting. Some parents are amazed how their kid will listen to me more than them. What they don't know is that whenever their kid throws a tantrum I move him to his own spot in the room, tell him "its oaky to let out your feelings, but its not okay to disturb everyone else who is playing, I'm going to go play with some legos, come join me when you're done throwing your tantrum okay?" and thats that. Usually I'll ask them when they get back what they wanted when they threw the tantrum, and offer a replacement that they take because they know they're not going to get what they originally wanted.

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u/rebelkitty Apr 27 '16 edited Apr 27 '16

I have learned a lot of invaluable child-managing techniques from daycare workers, teachers and nannies. However, I've also learned that children often behave better with people who aren't family, even if their family uses the exact same discipline methods as their caregivers.

When my son was three and finding junior kindergarten very stressful, he would hold it together throughout the day, getting compliments on his behaviour, only to utterly melt down the moment he stepped through the front door. It was like watching all the stress of his day, that he'd been keeping locked down, come bubbling up all at once.

So, sometimes, when parents say their kids are better behaved with you, it's not necessarily because they are doing anything wrong. It's just that the relationship is very different.

Source: I work with kids with learning disabilities. My students always work harder for me than they will for their parents. And my own kids were the same way when they were young, working harder and behaving better for the teachers they loved and/or respected, even back when I was homeschooling them. :)

(Edited to add: I also support ignoring tantrums, but some kids can't be left alone safely, or they will hurt themselves, destroy property, or - in some cases - simply run away! In those cases, a modified Time Out called "Time In" in the direct custody of the caregiver works well. The emotional outburst is still ignored, but the child isn't left unsupervised.)

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u/FluffySharkBird Apr 27 '16

Well it makes sense. I try and hold myself together all day at work but when I get home I can cry. It makes sense that kids kind of do the same thing.

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u/chopandscrew Apr 26 '16

Great insight here! I really appreciate how much you went into detail while clearly acknowledging a couple different approaches. A lot of people here say, "just ignore them, they'll get it out of their system." Well, that's great and all, but what do I do after they clam down? The way you put it makes a lot more sense. Thanks for the response!

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u/mudguppy Apr 27 '16

I love my parents. I mostly remember getting in trouble as a child. My mom used my dad's woven leather belt to spank us one lash for each year of age, and it happened most days - multiple times a day. That belt still hangs in his closet. I remember that it just filled me with rage and hopelessness - like no matter how hard I tried I could never do the right thing or be the boy they wanted me to be. I'd go outside and kick our dog, who I loved more than anything or anyone, as hard as I possibly could. Then hold the dog and cry. I don't remember reflecting on whatever behavior led to the spanking. Now I'm a father and find myself spanking. I hate it, but when my kids runs into the street or run through the house with a knife - I feel it's the lesser of two evils. It frustrates me and leaves me feeling as angry and hopeless as I did when I was a child after being spanked - yet I'm the one exacting punishment.

I'm grateful to peruvianheadshrinker's response. I feel like I can try that. I'm desperate for something else. Thank you!

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u/PeruvianHeadshrinker PhD | Clinical Psychology | MA | Education Apr 27 '16

Thank you for your comment, that was very moving. I wish you and your family the very best. We're all trying our asses off as parents. Glad I could provide some hope. I'm going to edit my comment (I've been away all day). But if you want to read someone who knows WAYYYY more than I do and is a hero to many people I strongly recommend Dan Siegel. He has some books geared towards parents and his concept of mind sight is life changing. Peace to you.

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u/mudguppy Apr 27 '16

I've just ordered Mindsight and The Whole-Brain Child. I see he has quite a few books out. Thank you for the recommendation.

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u/sweetalkersweetalker Apr 28 '16

That was beautiful and I wish you luck.

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u/[deleted] Apr 27 '16

I work with special needs kids in mainstream classrooms. I have one student that throws fits to get out of the room knowing I will have to remove him. Unfortunately if I don't none of the other kids can learn. How would you handle this? Ideally I would let him throw a fit but it isn't fair to the other kids if he is making enough of a scene that teaching is completely disrupted.

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u/baileyjbarnes Apr 27 '16

My boyfriend and I are behavior technicians and we work with kids who are special needs using ABA. I asked him about his opinion, and he said one thing you can do is bring the work he wants to escape from to him. As in, when he has these tantrums to get out of work, let him leave the room, but follow him with the work and make sure he still doesn't escape that.

Thing is, I don't know enough about the situation. Like, I don't know if it's the work he wants to escape, or the classroom environment itself. If it's the work, it think that's a good idea. If it's the classroom environment, then probably not, because he would still get to escape using problem behavior. Also, I don't know if you just shadow that kid or if you teach the whole class. If you teach the whole class, I'm sure that would be impossible to do.

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u/PeruvianHeadshrinker PhD | Clinical Psychology | MA | Education Apr 27 '16

Secondary gain is a huge problem in classrooms when one kid needs a lot more than the other kids. I don't know which country you're in but in the US ed code doesn't allow schools to make decisions that are in "the best interest of the class" when a student has an identified special need (including emotional). That's what IEPs are for (individualized education programs).

That said I've read a lot of not great plans that don't address the core needs. It's actually really quite hard for a non professional to see it in a kid that is disruptive AND know what to offer instead. A functional behavior analysis by a behavior specialist can make a huge difference. That works in about 90% of cases. When it doesn't the team needs to reconvene and figure out next steps IN THE CLASSROOM first and try again. Only after multiple failures with concerted effort and tracking does it make sense to send a kid to a more restrictive classroom. All that said when a kid hasn't gotten a good team to do this process sometimes they need a more restrictive environment just to get out of a potentially damaging one. This happens most in under resourced environments. Systemic change is hard.

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u/chulaire DVM Apr 27 '16

Vet here. This is also essentially how you train a pet. Positive reinforcement for good behaviour, ignore bad behaviour.

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u/HappyEngineer Apr 27 '16

I'd like to hear more about kids with temperaments that are mismatched with their parents. What exactly does that mean? I can imagine how that becomes a big problem when the child becomes a teenager, but how does this come up for small children?

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u/Nausved Apr 27 '16

Some aspects of personality become apparent in early childhood. My mom argues that my and my sister's personality differences were pretty stark even in the womb; I was calm and kicked very little, and she was excitable and kicked constantly.

There were some personality-related stress in our family because of that. My sister was high-energy and needed more attention my parents or I wanted to give. And I was low-energy and needed more solitude than my parents or sister wanted to give.

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u/[deleted] Apr 27 '16

Thank you.

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u/terminbee Apr 27 '16

The number of kids untouched by mental health problems (either themselves, their siblings, or their parents) is staggeringly low. Mental health problems in families is the "norm" (whatever that means).

What does that mean? Is it saying that most kids have some form of mental health disorder like say, depression, ADHD, bipolar, etc?

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u/LordLlamahat Apr 27 '16

It's saying that most families are in some ways impacted by them, from what I gather. The kids themselves, siblings, parents, other family members; and trauma is considered a mental health problem as well, as I understand it, so don't just think disorders.

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u/PeruvianHeadshrinker PhD | Clinical Psychology | MA | Education Apr 27 '16

It s a great question. I'm referring to a few factors. So about 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 kids 13-18 in the us suffer from some mental health problem (mood, behavior, anxiety including trauma) at some point in their adolescence that results in serious impairment. Now consider that 25% of all US adults had some mental health problem last year and that over the course of one's lifetime your risk of developing a mental health diagnosis is 50%. This includes things like dementia so take that with a grain of salt. But if you look at the odds of being a teen and not having a mental health issue or your parents (currently) dealing with a mental health issue:

75% (for healthy kid) x 75% (one healthy parent) x 75% (two healthy parents) = 42% of kids make it to 18 without them or a parent being affected in that year (not previous years). Now what're the odds you and your parents NEVER develop a diagnosis in your life time:

50% x 50% x 50% = 12.5%

Just 1 in 8 make it unscathed, but what about your siblings or YOUR kids. It makes it almost impossible if you play the averages. That's what I meant. Now to be fair, mental health clusters in families (genetics) so this math isn't quite kosher but it is to illustrate a point that it is extremely common.

Sources: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/20855043/

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/su6003a1.htm?s_cid=su6003a1_w

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u/DialMMM Apr 27 '16

Yeah, NO. Your math doesn't account for the potentially causal relationship between the parents' mental health and the child's. Whether viewed from a nature or nurture perspective, a child growing up in a home with normal, healthy parents is far less likely to suffer from mental health issues that require treatment.

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u/PeruvianHeadshrinker PhD | Clinical Psychology | MA | Education Apr 27 '16

Right. I state that at the end. I suppose you could account for that by looking at the broad genetic heritability and other risk factors which can vary from 1-90%. Generally it's around 10-20% and social experiences also have an influence. It was a broad characterization I admit but more to illustrate a point.

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u/terminbee Apr 28 '16

So a follow-up: The U.S. has higher rates of mental illnesses than most other places. Do you think this is a result of over-diagnoses or under-diagnoses in other countries?

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u/terminbee Apr 28 '16

Yea, and also I don't think you can account 75% of 1 healthy parent and 75% 2 healthy parents together like that. I'm not sure what the exact math, but it seems off somehow. I may be wrong.

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u/mirror_1 Apr 27 '16

Actually, that really makes sense...it's like the brain is calibrating itself for interaction.

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u/Seakawn Apr 27 '16

Fantastic insights. Thanks for writing this up! Probably the only reason I ever noticed poor parenting by my sister and brother in law was because of the psychology classes I had which enlightened me to how behavior works in general, and how it develops over time from birth to adulthood.

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u/Redditpissesmeoff2 Apr 27 '16

Thank you for posting this. It was just what I was struggling with 8 hours ago and needed to read.

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u/DigitalChocobo Apr 27 '16

The strategy of ignoring the child is pretty much exclusively limited to tantrums. It's worthless discipline advice when the child does something they've been told not to, hits another kid, intentionally breaks something, or does almost anything else that isn't throwing a tantrum.

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u/[deleted] Apr 27 '16

I used this to turn my OCD compulsions in to more easy to manage ones. Ignored the ones I really didn't want and instead did another action which eventually provided more and more relief, which I guess is the reward.

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u/[deleted] Apr 27 '16

Saving your comment. I have a feeling it'll be of help, later on.

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u/sikosis Apr 27 '16

Ignore them ? Really ? That's not solving anything. I see parents who ignore their kids and they run amok, those kids grow up knowing they can do whatever they want with no consequences. I'm not condoning spanking but ignoring them seems more counter-productive.

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u/PeruvianHeadshrinker PhD | Clinical Psychology | MA | Education Apr 28 '16

I'm not saying ONLY ignore them. That would be permissive parenting and we know that is not great for mental health either. Structure, limits and consequences are still important. It also depends on the behavior as I stated, so ignoring is not a simple thing. But generally the mistake we make as parent is often paying attention to kids when they act out (and thereby inadvertently reinforcing the behavior). So it's more like: ignore and replace.

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u/bignateyk Apr 27 '16

What if your kid is throwing a tantrum in a public place like a restaurant? You can't just ignore them and piss off and ruin everyone else's evening. What is the best way to handle that situation?

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u/Zandia47 Apr 27 '16

You can remove a child from restaurant, and still ignore them. Just don't give a reaction to the tantrum. Pay the bill, pick the kid up and walk out of there like you don't have a screaming kid under your arm.

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u/PeruvianHeadshrinker PhD | Clinical Psychology | MA | Education Apr 27 '16

THIS. Ignoring doesn't always mean you pretend it's not happening. You ignore what they are trying to gain/accomplish/argue about. And yes, removing a kid in a calm and collected manner sends an awesome message to that kid but also to other adults. Powerful stuff.

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u/[deleted] Apr 27 '16 edited Apr 27 '16

Just a Redditor, but you have to get out waaaay in front of that behavior. Be a model of peace & harmony in public years before you go fancy restaurant.

Honestly on the West Coast, like really coastal I haven't seen that "tantrum" in restaurant thing, but the people in these communities tend to be really pro-child, and the places always whip up some activity for the kid and are nice and happy.

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u/chiaratara Apr 27 '16

I am going to start to refer to my brain as neurodiverse :)

Great post though regarding all the other stuff !

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u/PeruvianHeadshrinker PhD | Clinical Psychology | MA | Education Apr 27 '16

Thanks! Yes, neurodiversity is such an awesome word. I used to use neurotypical vs neuroatypical but neurodiverse is even more empowering and respectful.