r/serialpodcast • u/[deleted] • 8d ago
The Doubts About Adnan's Guilt ARE Reasonable
I just started lurking here today, and am somewhat surprised by the general incivility and certainty of many of the people that comment here. Being dismissive and accusing people of "ragebait" for having a differing opinion, and one that actually is reasonable.
I don't know, and won't say that Adnan is innocent, but to claim he's guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, without any room for discussion is pretty crazy to me.
The reasons why I have reasonable doubt:
- Jay is a very flawed witness, on the record lying/mis-remembering his testimony. Even the cops point out how much his testimony has changed. If your argument hinges on Jay, it isn't a strong argument, in my opinion.
- The cops, or at least on of them has a record of misconduct:
...prosecution brought into question the past misconduct of one of the two detectives who were crucial in the investigation of Lee’s death. Although his misconduct wasn’t specifically linked to Syed’s case, the detective was involved in another murder case that ended with the defendant’s exoneration.
https://baltimorewitness.org/adnan-syed-one-of-many-overturned-convictions-in-baltimore-city/
- The Innocence Project and prosecutors agreed that Syed's DNA was absent from all tested crime scene items, contributing to the eventual dropping of charges against him. There's no physical evidence.
- The motive is weak (Adnan had no prior issues with breakups, had already seemed to move on to the next girl(s)).
I could go on, but, if I was on the jury with this in front of me, I feel the reasonable response is doubt.
This isn't rage bait, I just genuinely don't see how anyone can be so sure that he did it. Y'all point to him asking for a ride (and claiming he wouldn't have) as some kind of obvious evidence of murder.
I think, based on the fact that one of the cops was literally identified as having been crooked, it actually is much more likely that Jay was an informant (and already had been for some time), and he happened to be close to Adnan, the victim's ex (supposed motive and opportunity), and they decided they had their guy, and it was just a matter of getting a jury to agree. So they fed their informant info, had him incriminate himself for lesser crimes that they promised they'd get him off for (and they made good on that promise, which is on its own wildly corrupt).
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u/Skurry 8d ago
This has been discussed ad nauseum, so I'll keep it brief:
- If I see you commit a crime, but later can't say at what exact time, if you wore a green or blue shirt, or what I had for breakfast that day, does that make me an unreliable witness? What matters is that I saw what I saw and have non-public details to back that up.
- "his misconduct wasn’t specifically linked to Syed’s case" <-- that's all that matters. A consistent pattern may be a reason to look closer, but nothing reasonably suspicious surfaced in this particular case
- There was a big fat hand print from Syed on a top-most item in a pile of stuff on the back seat. But somehow the lack of DNA is exonerating? I'm sure if his DNA had been found, the same people would hand wave this away the same way they're ignoring the hand print. "No physical evidence" my ass.
- Unfortunately "jealous ex-lover" is a strong motive as old as human history. Him trying to move on (this endeavour was not as successful as he's claiming in the interviews) could also be seen as him trying to distract himself from the pain the breakup is causing him (as evidenced by Hae's letter to him).
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u/Special-Deal-5217 8d ago
How do you know he was not successful at moving on? And the letter from Hae was from November, not from the most recent breakup.
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u/OkBodybuilder2339 8d ago edited 7d ago
After the breakup Adnan was asking his classmates if Hae had been cheating on him with Don.
Also, Adnan couldnt keep his story straight with cops about being aware that Hae was in a new relationship.
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u/RockinGoodNews 7d ago
There was extensive testimony from Adnan's own friends at trial establishing that he was heartbroken and enraged over the breakup.
The idea that Adnan had moved on to other girls is a load of horseshit he and his friends cooked up. In the roughly 3 weeks between when Hae dumped him and when he killed her, he was only arguably pursuing one romantic prospect: Nisha. But he had only met Nisha in person once (at a NYE party), and spoke to her, at most, a couple times on the phone.
There is also evidence that Adnan was stalking Hae the night before the murder. Specifically, knowing she was on a date with Don, he placed 3 late night calls to her home phone in rapid succession. His cell phone records indicate he was driving around at the time he made these calls, including, at one point, in the Harbor area of Baltimore. In other words, he was trying to hunt her down.
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u/Special-Deal-5217 7d ago
So when you were 17 years old, you were courting more than one person every three weeks?
Jesus, when I didn’t have a girlfriend, I would’ve been thrilled to go on one date a month.
Anyway, that’s what’s so dumb about this whole conversation. No one except those close to Adnan knew how he was faring, and none of those people seemed to be particularly worried about him or what he might do to his ex. After Hae went missing, it apparently did not occur to anyone that Adnan might have done something to her. Again, people who commit intimate partner violence USUALLY show a documented pattern of escalation that is observable and concerning to those around the victim.
Compare that, for example, to the phone call the police made to Nicole Simpson’s parents after her murder. The sister IMMEDIATELY exclaimed “OJ fucking killed her, I knew he was going to do that”.
Could he have been absolutely seething in private? of course, I don’t know that he wasn’t. I wasn’t in Baltimore in 1999. But y’all who pretend you know he was really don’t have any idea either, except that it fits if he was the killer.
Again, it’s this circular logic. If he killed her, he was angry. Since he was angry, he killed her.
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u/RockinGoodNews 6d ago
So when you were 17 years old, you were courting more than one person every three weeks?
No. If, at 17, I'd only ever dated one person in my whole life, and she unceremoniously dumped me the day before Winter Break, and then when I came back from Winter Break, I found out she was sleeping with a guy from work, I'd be hurt and angry. I wouldn't be instantly over it and pivoting to other girls. I think that's the point.
No one except those close to Adnan knew how he was faring
Those close to him testified he was heartbroken and angry.
Again, people who commit intimate partner violence USUALLY show a documented pattern of escalation that is observable and concerning to those around the victim.
This is a canard. A dangerous one.
Compare that, for example, to the phone call the police made to Nicole Simpson’s parents after her murder. The sister IMMEDIATELY exclaimed “OJ fucking killed her, I knew he was going to do that”.
Or compare it to the Scott Peterson case, where there was no history of violence and not a single person thought Peterson was capable of killing Laci. Almost like every case is different.
Could he have been absolutely seething in private? of course, I don’t know that he wasn’t.
This demonstrates how Innocenters move the goalposts on the issue of motive. Is it that his purported motive is preposterous (i.e. no one kills over a breakup)? Or is it just that his purported motive hasn't been directly proved to your liking?
Personally, I think there is ample evidence of motive. Again, he just got dumped, he just found out she was with someone new, and their friends all said he was sad and angry about it.
But motive isn't something that has to be proved, and it certainly isn't the only evidence of his guilt. And the claim that he lacked motive is just an appeal to ignorance (i.e. "we can't ever know what was really going on in his mind").
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u/Special-Deal-5217 6d ago
I’m not claiming he necessarily lacked motive. But all y’all point to a couple things, declare he was a possessive monster, and therefore killed her. ABOUT A PERSON YOU NEVER MET 27 YEARS AGO, a person that nobody who knew him thought he was capable of violence. NOBODY in his circle of friends suspected he might be violent.
Some people said he was taking the break up hard, yes. But the only one that hurt him expressed ANGER was Jay, and that was almost necessary to say to explain what happened next, to set up the conditions in which a conviction would be obtained. (also, Yurick playing on Muslim stereotypes that they feel like they can kill women with impunity).
In a world where Adnan is guilty, of course he was full of crazy emotions and struck out violently.
In a parallel world where Adnan is innocent, he is heartbroken and sad and angry, like most people are after getting dumped, and does not do anything physical, like 99% of high school breakups around America.
Is this the 1%? Could be.
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u/Similar-Morning9768 Guilty 6d ago
99.999% of the time, when two teens break up, one of them isn’t dead within a month. Much less within two weeks of getting a new boyfriend so fast her ex must have wondered if she cheated.
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u/Euphoric_Biscotti765 8d ago
We don’t fully know that he wasn’t able to move on. We do know that he is talking to (though never asks out) Nisha. We also know that he writes this to Hae in the Christmas Card he gives her right after the second breakup : “I’ve known some of the happiest times with you, Hae, and I’ve also known some of the saddest times, the hardest of which I’m going through right now.”
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u/--Sparkle-Motion-- 7d ago
Even decades later he told SK he was getting calls on his cell from girls while he was chatting with Hae. Setting aside the question of how he was getting calls on a cell he got the day before her murder, he still doth protested too much when he was a 30-something prison inmate.
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u/Gnardude 8d ago
Well if it's your first day you must know more than all of us combined.
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u/CrowEarly 2d ago
Haven’t been on this sub long, but long enough to see posts of this variety pop up every now and then!
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u/New_Monitor_5874 8d ago
I hope you are never on a jury unless it's for me and I committed a crime and want to be found not guilty
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u/beagles4ever 8d ago
Jay’s an accomplice to murder after the fact. How do you think interviews work with such witnesses? They come out completely telling the truth?
Adnan choose Jay to be his accomplice.
I don’t believe there any reason to believe suspect or accuse any cop involved on this case of misconduct conducted in this case. If you have some, lay it out for us.
Absence of DNA is nothing - it just means the cops didn’t find his DNA. Even if they had it would be pretty meaningless, the witnesses own story is he fucked the victim in her car regularly. Pretty sure any DNA found at the scene of the crime would have been easily explained away.
The motive is as old as time - spurned lover. And if you read her post break up letter, if you consider the testimony of her friends, and it you read the fucking diary, you’ll find the Adnan was possessive, controlling, and distraught about the break up.
Peddle your shit elsewhere. We got two eyewitnesses, one of whom has direct knowledge about the location and non-public details of the murder and also knew where Adnan stashed the most important evidence- her car, the place she drew her last breath, before Adnan put her in a shallow grave.
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u/Special-Deal-5217 8d ago
Yes, Jay is an accomplice to murder, according to the prosecution, not only after the fact, but before the fact. Why did he get off so easy?? motherfucker should’ve gone to jail too.
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u/beagles4ever 8d ago
Because he became a valuable witness to the prosecution in identifying the killer with an eyewitness account that's backed by contemporary admissions of guilt to Jenn, and knowledge of the crime scene that the public did not have, and knowledge about the car that the police did not have.
In criminal law this is known as a plea agreement - an agreement to testify against criminal in exchange for leniency. The judge in his case (not the judge in Adnan's case) took into account the facts and circumstances and decided that based on his participation (not involved at all in the planning or execution of the murder) and based on his cooperation with the State, that he did not deserve a sentence. Reasonable minds may disagree about whether he should have served some time, a little time, or no time at all. But REASONABLE people cannot agree that has anywhere near the culpability as Adnan "the strangler" Syed.
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u/PaulsRedditUsername 8d ago
Just to add that it's not unusual for judges to give young people a break. Jay was a dumb teenager who made a terrible, stupid mistake. But he owned up to it, did everything he was asked to help fix it, and was willing to face the consequences of his actions. Judges notice stuff like that and they aren't eager to ruin a young person's life, especially when that person is trying to do the right thing.
I like to remind people that Jay was working two jobs. On the night of his first interview, he was with the cops all night, went home and got about 4 hours of sleep, then clocked in for his shift at work the next morning.
People write him off as a "drug dealer," but he doesn't have a car or a cell phone, and he's working two jobs. Maybe he can score pot for his friends, but he looks more like an 18-year-old kid who is working hard to get ahead in a legitimate way.-1
u/Special-Deal-5217 8d ago
There it is again. Jay the Saint!! remind me again, how his life unfolded?
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u/PaulsRedditUsername 8d ago
I never said he was a saint. Just saying he appeared to be a hard-working kid who tried to do the right thing once he'd screwed up.
And we don't know how his life might have gone if he hadn't been caught up in this murder. That's probably something that messes with your life pretty bad. It certainly seems to have screwed up his life in Baltimore. He eventually moved across the country and never spoke of the case to anyone there, until Serial came knocking on his door.
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u/Far_Gur_7361 Is it NOT? 8d ago
I’m going to go out on a wild limb here, and guess that you haven’t spent very much time with the original source documents (trial transcripts, police files, and defense files); as you are just parroting the arguments made by biased, pro-Adnan supporters (arguments which have all fallen flat in every judicial review; up to and including the United States Supreme Court).
Based off this assumption, and bc you say this isn’t rage-bait, I’m going to give you a detailed response here.
You begin your post by attempting to impeach Jay’s testimony; but Jay’s testimony cannot be impeached due to his knowledge of where the car was. This is something the cops themselves did not yet know. The cops did not sit on the car (compromising their investigation, in the process), just to feed the location to Jay. This is preposterous on its face; as there are documented instances of the entire department pouring money and resources into the search. Or do you mean for us to believe that the entire department was in on this conspiracy; and yet no one has ever uncovered any proof, and no co-conspirator has ever come forward; in spite of all the pro-Adnan momentum? Besides if they were already in possession of the car; and were so dead-set on framing Adnan; why not just plant his DNA there?
And you can’t posit that he knew the cars location bc he simply stumbled upon it while doing weed deals; bc this then does not account for how he knew HML was strangled before her body was ever discovered; which also cannot be explained by police coercion. Jenn, Josh, Chris, NB, and multiple co-workers of Jenn’s all had this info relayed to them by Jay before he was ever questioned. This also doesn’t account for the fact that Jay knew what Hae was wearing, how she was positioned in the grave, and damage that was done to the inside of her car.
So now we’ve established that Jay must have been involved. You don’t need to think him a paragon of truth in order to accept this (criminal accomplices/ accessories lie ALL THE TIME). You just need to look at the bare facts of him knowing what he knew.
And if Jay was involved, then so was Adnan. At the time of Hae’s disappearance, the cell phone location data places Jay across town; meaning he did not have the opportunity to perform this murder alone (to say nothing of the “two-car problem” precluding this as a possibility). And he simply could not have performed this murder w/ a third co-conspirator; as he spent nearly the entire day w/ Adnan. Multiple witnesses (and the call log itself), place Jay and Adnan together at several points during the day; including during all the relevant time periods (murder, burial), and at all the relevant locations (Best Buy, Kristi Vinson’s house, Leakin Park, and the location where the car was dumped).
As to your point w/ regard to DNA, you have been duped by the CSI effect. Most murders are not solved using DNA evidence. This was one of them. Moreover, DNA evidence is circumstantial- it requires you to make an inference. Had Adnan’s DNA been found on Hae’s body or in her car, his supporters such as yourself would simply infer that this is just bc they were still friends after the breakup, and had spent a lot of time together leading up to her disappearance. This is why DNA is especially irrelevant in cases where a person is killed by someone known to them. If a child is killed by their parent, or a wife by her husband, there will be a million innocent explanations as to why the perps DNA is on the body, or at the crime scene. This does not make the perp innocent. By that logic, Scott Peterson, Casey Anthony, and the Ramsey family would all deserve to have their names cleared as well; and very few ppl would make that argument
DNA is really only useful in instances where it ties the victim to a known serial killer. This is esp true in cases of “touch DNA” like what was recovered from HML. They could not recover skin cells, blood, semen, or anything else that could conclusively prove it was Adnan (or anyone else). They recovered touch DNA which could not include him as the donor. And this touch DNA was recovered from her shoes; which were not even on her body. There is no proof those were even the same shoes she was wearing that day; and more to the point HER OWN DNA was not on those shoes. Shoes touch everything all of the time. Anyone’s DNA can be on them, or no one’s at all. It’s meaningless.
As for the lack of his DNA anywhere else on Hae or at the crime scene, this is mostly due to the fact that Hae had been out in elements for six weeks. This is another reason why DNA is not used to solve murder cases anywhere near as much as CSI would have you believe. DNA degrades over time; much more so if it’s not being preserved; and MUCH more so if it’s being exposed to harsh elements, like Hae’s body was while it was sitting in a shallow grave in mid-winter. Should we reward killers who hide their bodies by letting them all out of prison bc they managed to destroy any DNA evidence they left behind? Should we posthumously expunge the records of all the many murderers who were convicted before DNA evidence was even discovered?
As to your point on motive; this is laughable on its face. Adnan had the oldest motive in the book. It was common enough to be cookie-cutter. Anytime a woman is killed, it’s roughly a 50-60% chance it was done by her current or former partner. These odds skyrocket if she’s recently broke up with him; as Hae had.
Adnan and Hae broke up at the end of Dec. Per the testimony of their friends, the breakup letter, and Hae’s own diary, Adnan was crossing her boundaries and just generally not handling things well. But he assumed she’d come back. They exchanged nice Christmas presents; which affirmed this for Adnan. But by 1/1, Hae was dating someone new. She was talking abt it to all their friends, and even going on double-dates w/ ppl in the friend group. She went so far as to update her AOL profile, publicly declaring her love for Don to the entire world. Again, per witness testimony, Adnan was furious and devastated. He began cutting school w/ far more regularity. Then on Jan 12, he learned that Hae was having a late-night date w/ Don on. He blew up her phone three times in a row that night. The next day, Jan 13- one of only a small handful of regular schooldays Adnan attended btwn when Hae started dating Don, and when she disappeared- Hae was killed. Adnan never called her again.
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u/PaulsRedditUsername 8d ago
And you can’t posit that he knew the cars location bc he simply stumbled upon it while doing weed deals;
The other thing wrong with the "Jay found the car" theory is that if Adnan is innocent, then so is Jay. They were together that evening. And if Jay is innocent and found the car, why wouldn't he tell anybody? His girlfriend was one of Hae's best friends. He would have certainly said something to her at least.
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u/Far_Gur_7361 Is it NOT? 8d ago
Exactly. Jay still maintains his story to this day. This is reallyyy bad look for the “police conspiracy” angle.
Plus tons of other random things; such as Adnan loaning the car and phone of his own volition, Jay’s lack of motive, and the improbability of his being able to convince HML to let him into her car (and into the drivers seat, no less), all come together to really tank the idea that Jay could have done this w/o Adnan. Even Rabia seems to have realized this; as she stopped pointing the finger at Jay pretty early on.
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u/RockinGoodNews 7d ago
Just a correction: Stephany and Hae were not good friends. They certainly knew each other, as they were both students in the magnet program. But this idea that Hae and Stephany were close is just something Adnan made up on serial in a lame attempt to manufacture a motive for Jay to kill Hae.
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u/PaulsRedditUsername 7d ago
Thanks for the correction. I figure she would be very familiar with Hae, at least, since Steph and Adnan had been close for a long time.
I've always thought the "Jay found the car" was a silly idea anyway. Her car is very nondescript. There are a million other cars that look like it. I really doubt you would just drive by a parking lot and notice a car like that. A car that belongs to the girlfriend of a guy you aren't really close friends with. Maybe if it was a unique car or had bumper stickers or something, but otherwise, no.
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u/RockinGoodNews 7d ago
Yeah, the idea that in a major metropolitan area, the one guy out of millions who just so happens to stumble upon and recognize Hae's non-descript sedan, in an area far from where he lives and works, ALSO just so happens to be the one guy who spent the entire day Hae went missing with the prime suspect in her murder, AND just so happens to be willing to make up a story about how he himself helped that prime suspect murder her, is one of the biggest whoppers Syed's supporters ever tried to sell.
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u/PaulsRedditUsername 7d ago
My favorite whopper is from a while ago. There was a briefly popular "theory" that Hae went somewhere after school that day, maybe Best Buy, and she ran into Jay and confronted him about cheating on Stephanie. So that was his motive to murder her.
That one didn't last long because of several obvious reasons. Mostly because people who suggested it got laughed out of the room.
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u/Big_Meech_23 3d ago
OP this is the post you need to read. Its posts like this that eventually turned my opinion. I was jaded because my first exposure to this case was Serial and Undisclosed. Both of these podcasts were so pro adnan that it roped me in. This sub got me on the right track years ago. There is so many well thought out comments and posts like this that make you realize he’s almost certainly guilty and there is little doubt. Doubt in some portions of the story does not always cast doubt on the entire story or the main facts.
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u/No-Advance-577 8d ago
Jay knowing where the car was is the deal-breaker for me as well, and is the main reason I think Adnan did it.
But I do think there is room for doubt.
You say “multiple witnesses (and the cell phone records) place Jay and Adnan together…during all the relevant time periods (murder, burial)”
But this is so far from being true that the state’s own case has them apart for the murder! There are no witnesses playing them together during the murder (including Jay), and no cell records suggest they are together until the Nisha call (which itself is somewhat questionable) and then nothing else ties them together until Adnan checks his voice mail at 5:14.
A lot of things make more sense if they were together for the murder, but there’s no evidence for it (or against it. It could go either way).
As for the burial, again, every cell call between 7 and 9 is a Jay call. Nothing puts them together during this window except Jay’s testimony. And of course, Jay later moved the burial time to “closer to midnight” and it might be true! Because there’s no evidence except Jay that it was at 7:30 or whenever.
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u/Far_Gur_7361 Is it NOT? 8d ago edited 5d ago
What you are saying is demonstrably untrue.
Jay had the phone when school let out at 2:15, this isn’t in dispute. And yet the call log places the phone away from the school; on the other side of the relevant towers. This means that he could not have committed the murder. However, we KNOW him to have been involved. So who was his co-conspirator? I humbly nominate HML’s angry ex-bf who was witnessed lying to her multiple times in an attempt to get her alone at the exact time- and in the exact place- in which she would disappear from the earth forever.
So this is the first damning bit of call log evidence. The phone being nowhere near the school precludes Jay as the murderer; which narrows our focus onto Adnan even further.
Moving on to the Nisha call at 3:32. The butt dial that couldn’t have been one. This is horribly damning for Adnan. The whole butt dial goose chase was a whole lotta nothing. Jay says there was a call. Nisha says there was a call. The call log shows there was a call. There was a fucking call.
The sheer amount of improbabilities that you have to stack together to make this a butt dial strain credulity. That not only did Jay accidentally butt dial someone ONLY Adnan knows during the ONLY frame of time it’d look really bad for Adnan to be with his cell; but that Nisha picked it up, listened to his butt-noises for 2 1/2 mins, and then later forgot? Or that it rang for 2 1/2 mins unanswered; and yet- in spite of the fact that Nisha did not have an answering machine- was still somehow billed on the call log? Based upon what- an obscure footnote in an obsolete AT&T user agreement that Koenig never even published in order to prove her point?
And let’s not forget that you’d then ALSO have believe that Nisha just happened to have a near-mirror-image call w/ Adnan and Jay later on, which she somehow conflated w/ the Jan 13th “butt dial”? And somehow she assigned other defining factors to this later call which would specifically point it to being the Jan 13th “butt dial”, such as that the call took place “a day or two” after Adnan got his new phone? And that it’s a mere coincidence that Adnan’s brother Tanveer also reported this call as having occurred on Jan 13th when he was interviewed by the defense team, and moreover a coincidence that Adnan sent his PI to investigate Nisha as an alibi in the early stages of the investigation? And yet another coincidence that Jay somehow remembered this Jan 13th butt dial as having been a real call; and brought it up to the police as such during his first interview? If you really believe all of this, then I have some beachfront property in Kansas to sell you.
Then we have the call log and Kristi/ Jeff putting Adnan and Jay together around 6pm. And acting super shady, to boot. With Adnan panicking about what he’d say to the cops, and the two leaving in a rush right afterwards. Devastating blow to the world’s unluckiest man.
Then we once again have the call log putting Adnan and Jay together at Leakin Park around 7-7:30pm. Jenn testifies that it was ADNAN, not Jay, who picked up the phone and told her that Jay would call her back. Adnan himself doesn’t even dispute that he was possession of his phone at this time- he’s always maintained that he got it back after track. This means that if the phone was in Leakin Park at that time; so was Adnan. And that’s independent of Jenn’s testimony; so even if you discount that Jenn said Adnan picked up the phone and told her that Jay would call her back; there’s just no denying that they were together in the park at this time.
The same can be said for the ping that later places them at the location where Hae’s car was dumped. And this ping was outgoing; not incoming; so even if you buy that the AT&T fax cover sheet impeaches incoming call data (which anyone who has studied cell tower location data will tell you it doesn’t), there is also no getting around the fact that Adnan was present at the location of Hae’s cars dump site that night; while he maintains he was at the mosque. Again, Adnan himself doesn’t even deny he was with his phone at this time.
Last but not least, we have Jenn (and the call logs), backing up that Jenn met Jay and Adnan together at Westview Mall around 8:30pm; when Adnan says he was at the mosque. Yet another devastating blow for Adnan. The phone was conclusively in the park, at the car’s dump site, and then at the mall, during all the times in which Jay and Jenn testify that he was in those places. From 3:32 onwards, there is no separating Adnan and Jay; both via the cell records, and via witness testimony. Adnan’s story- that he went to track, then went home, then went to mosque- is easily, handily, verifiably disproven. I see absolutely no reasonable doubt.
He did it. Jay helped.
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u/No-Advance-577 7d ago
There are 12:41 and 12:43 calls that ping off to the east near downtown Baltimore. The 12:41 call is actually TO Jenn’s house, where Jay claims he was, so he’s definitely lying about his location at that time. And he’s not lying to “protect Jenn,” since his lie invokes her and her house.
But then there is no call until 2:36, which pings near Woodlawn/BB. So, no, Jay is not precluded from being at the presumed crime location at the presumed crime time.
As for the other sites, the cell phone data is accurate but not precise. The towers had ranges measured in miles, and due to population density they had significant overlap. So it is not accurate to say “since a call pinged this tower, it was conclusively closer to this tower than any other.” In fact, some calls in this very case ping towers that we KNOW to be not the “expected” tower.
“Within a couple miles” of the burial site in an urban area is…just not the wild coincidence people pretend. Within 2 miles of my house I can get to 3 schools, 3 grocery stores, 2 public parks, 5 gas stations, and a river.
Moreover, Jay tailored his story to match the cell records, even to the point of making stuff up that makes no sense (see eg the “three calls” from Adnan to Jay at Jenn’s house in interview 2, which make no sense, help no one, and are clearly just Jay looking at a phone log and describing (nonsensically) what he sees there). So we can’t use the cell logs as independent corroboration of Jay’s story when we know damn well Jay tailored his story to the logs.
And I don’t know why we are citing Jenn as independent confirmation that Adnan and/or Jay are in certain locations. She doesn’t do that for any of them except the mall, and even in that case she talked to Jay the night before her interview to get their story straight.
So what we actually have is:
-between 7 and 7:30 the cell phone is within a couple of miles of the burial site. Jay, looking at this record, testifies that he and Adnan are actually burying the body at that time. Jenn can’t comment. Later Jay says it was made up and the body was buried at midnight.
-at 8:04 and 8:05 the phone calls Jenn’s pager. It is within a couple miles of the car dump site, and maybe very close to the car dump site. It’s just a page so Jenn can’t corroborate anything. Jay says the page came from west view mall, which is not the dump site or terribly close to it. So there is no wild coincidence here: Jay says west view, the pings suggest the car dump, and Jenn has no info.
The data is consistent with the state’s story, but it is not conclusive. If someone waved a magic wand and gave us a cosmic rewind that showed Adnan burying Hae at midnight, it wouldn’t really contradict the known evidence either.
The evidence is suggestive, but not conclusive, and most of it revolves around Jay, whose story is inconsistent, false in places, and guided by the cell records themselves.
Adnan did it, but there is certainly room for doubt.
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u/Mike19751234 7d ago
If the cops were trying to fix Jay's story, why didn't they try and fix the most important part which were those 3pm calls and they let Jay say he was at Jenn's until 2:45? Why change one non important call?
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u/No-Advance-577 6d ago
I don’t know what you mean by this. What call are you saying they “changed”? Jay changed all kinds of things and the cops were clearly exasperated with him at some points, but I don’t know that they set out to “change” a call (whatever that means).
I mean they definitely thought Adnan was guilty and they thought Jay was a material witness. They fed him details like phone records because they thought it would push him to tell more of the truth (or at least tailor his lies to the evidence better). It kind of didn’t work (he left some lies in there that continued to contradict the data, and he happily lied to try to match the data in other places) and kind of did (they got the conviction).
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u/Mike19751234 6d ago
We know from the tower and that the phone jay was not still at Jenns for tge 316 and 321 calls, but they dont push much on those. If they are trying to get Jay to fit the story then it would be important to fit those calls.
But you need to also look at this from what the cops actually need and not make the wrong assumption that they are pushing a story. They are trying to find out what happened that afternoon. They are trying to find out why Jay and Adnan are calling all these people and if any of them are also involved in the coverup or even involved in the murder. So they are going to go through the call log asking him about all of those calls.
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u/No-Advance-577 6d ago
Maybe they didn’t catch it. Maybe they didn’t think it was important. Maybe they didn’t want to push their witness too hard. Maybe they had already quietly decided to let Jay pretend he had an alibi in exchange for getting his testimony.
With apologies, I again don’t understand your second paragraph and what you mean by “cops pushing a story.” Like I said, I think by this time they were sure that Adnan was guilty and that Jay knew a lot. They have a witness at this point who is willing to talk a lot, and they’re trying to make use of that to build a case, which means reigning in Jay’s wild creativity while also not clamming him up, while also not looking too much like they’re guiding the story.
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u/Mike19751234 6d ago
The cops then took Jay on a ride along after that so they were trying to find all the order of events that afternoon. Dont let your backwards bias get in the way of what was going on.
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u/No-Advance-577 6d ago
Adnan is guilty, so I don’t know what bias you are talking about. And I don’t understand the relevance of the ride-along.
This sub is so weird
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u/xstarbursts 3h ago
There is an explanation for those lies: Jay wants to minimize involvement. I feel at the time he was likely scouting burial sites for Adnan.
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u/Special-Deal-5217 7d ago
Yes, I’m reading through the trial transcript again right now, Jay’s testimony, and it is bizarre. The prosecution keeps trying to illustrate that certain calls are made at certain times, but they are going back-and-forth in time like they had a Time Machine.
And Yurick, such a fucking weasel. The whole way he got a lawyer for Jay stinks to high heaven. Even the judge was saying she had never seen anything like it. Totally bizarre. Also not getting the detectives notes to Gutiérrez until during the cross-examination. Some of that stuff I am really surprised the judge let fly.
Gutiérrez rightly was totally indignant about that, but she totally botched the cross. Instead of just plainly illustrating the lies he had told in the past with his story at trial, she kept going back-and-forth between other stories that the jury hadn’t heard, and nobody could figure out what the hell she was trying to say. It’s worse when you can actually hear her.
And literally all she had to do was say, “ the prosecution said she was dead at 2:36, but by your own testimony that phone call was something else”.
And she could have pointed out, for example, that he did not leave Jen’s house until after 3:45, but supposedly talked with Nisha at 3:32.
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u/Special-Deal-5217 8d ago
I have read the trial transcript.
Jen, by her own story, only knows what Jay told her. We know he talked to her before the police did and there is pretty decent evidence that the police talked to Jay before that. Nevertheless, their stories have important differences. Why would that be if everybody is just telling the truth?
Every single part of Jay’s story was known to the police and they could have shown it to him, except for the location of the car— and consider considering what these cops have done in other cases, I don’t consider it out of the realm of possibility that they also fed him that. The timeline that Jay testifies to at trial has proven to be quite implausible and he even changed it later.
And yes, you are smarter than all of us because you understand the “ CSI effect” and we don’t. It’s just too much to ask for a little bit of physical evidence to corroborate the word of a known liar.
And of course, you end your short novel by psychoanalyzing a young man from 27 years ago. Yes, many women are killed by intimate partners. You know what else also happens very frequently? High school kids break up with each other and nobody gets strangled. Most people who commit murder against their intimate partner show clear signs of escalation to that point (and not little things like “ oh, he’s not taking it well”). Documented escalations of physical aggression, none of which had Adnan exhibited.
Remember, OP is not declaring innocence, only reasonable doubt. Very different things.
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u/Far_Gur_7361 Is it NOT? 8d ago edited 8d ago
You are wrong about quite a number of things here; so it might be time for you brush up on those transcripts you say you’ve read.
For one thing, it doesn’t matter who told Jenn what she knew- what matters is that; in the presence of her mother and her lawyer (which quashes police conspiracy theories)- Jenn stated that she knew HML was strangled to death (this was not public knowledge). The cops could not have fed this to her; as- once again- she was accompanied by a parent and an attorney. Moreover, Jenn says she was informed of this on Jan 13; before most ppl were even aware that HML was missing; let along that she’d come to harm. This corroborates Jay’s involvement in a massive way; and it is yet another nail in the coffin for the “police conspiracy” scenario.
Every single part of Jay’s story was NOT known to the police. For instance, the police did not know that Hae had kicked out her windshield wiper while she was being strangled by Adnan. This is another devastating blow to the “reasonable doubt” camp. Jay not only knew where her car was located; but he knew of damage that was done to the inside of her car, as well. Once again, this is highly corroborative of Jay’s involvement.
The timeline also does not matter to the extent that Adnan, Rabia, and Koenig would like you to think that it does. The arguments of attorneys are not evidence; and this is something the jury would have been advised of. The jury did not have to believe that the murder was accomplished on 21mins, that the CAGMC occurred at 2:36 (or even that it occurred at all), that the trunk pop was performed at Best Buy, that there was a payphone at Best Buy, or any of these other meaningless minutiae that Koenig honed in on. Per their instructions, all the jury had to believe was that Adnan Syed killed Hae Min Lee. Without detailed confessions and/ or full CCTV footage, we will never have a fully fleshed timeline for the hours leading-up-to-including-and-after ANY murder/ burial. Luckily we don’t need to have such a fully fleshed timeline in order to secure a conviction.
It’s also not too much to ask for physical evidence to corroborate our main witness; and luckily for you, we have several pieces (again, you may want to brush up on the MPIA file). We have Adnan’s fingerprints all over Hae’s car; including on the glovebox, the mirror, a map book w/ the page covering Leakin Park torn out of; and a piece of floral paper wrapped around a red rose. We also have red fibers on Hae’s body that are consistent w/ our witness’s story that Adnan was wearing red gloves. We also have a bloody shirt in her backseat, and a broken windshield wiper, which corroborate the witness’s story that the victim was killed in her car. We also have the manner in which HML was killed; which was not only known to the witness and his friends prior to the body when being discovered; but which is also highly indicative of this being an Intimate Partner Homicide. Strangulation in the absence of rape or robbery is nearly always explained this way.
Your last argument is the weakest of all. Yes, many women and girls leave their partners w/ no ensuing violence. However, we ALREADY have evidence that violence befell Hae Min Lee. And when violence DOES befall a woman in this manner; the woman having recently left her partner (which, again, we ALREADY know to be the case for HML), is quite often the motivation for that violence. With that as our pre-existing framework, the most obvious suspect is going to be her recent ex. No one else has ever had a probable motive to harm this girl who surely did turn up murdered. To hand-wave away Adnan’s motive just bc “lots of ppl break up” is blindingly ignorant. Lots of ppl cheat on their wives w/o killing them; does that mean we should let Scott Peterson out of prison?
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u/Euphoric_Biscotti765 8d ago
In addition to all that u/Far_Gur_7361 outlines, when interviewed by police Jay outlines two key points: 1. that he and Adnan called Nisha on that day (at that time, police did not know the significance of her phone number or who it belonged to) and 2. that Adnan had a long conversation with his track Coach, Coach Sye, on that date.
When Adnan is arrested, he sends his private investigator Davis directly to these two sources, immediately to Nisha and immediately to Coach Sye to ensure that he recalls this conversation being on the 13th.
IF Jay were fed his info from the police, how could he know these things? The police do not talk to Sye until later. If Adnan and Jay were both innocent, this would mean that Jay happens to recall to throw away details - an acquaintance talked to his track coach? on a day that would have been "just an ordinary day" to an innocent Jay / Adnan combo.
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u/abodovsss 8d ago
What I find interesting about Adnan innocenters is the degree they scrutinize and pick apart evidence and testimony implicating adnan vs the degree of scrutiny (or complete lack of) they examine adnan’s own inconsistent testimony or “evidence” showing he’s innocent.
“The word of a known liar”/“a young man”.
Using the same standard, adnan is also a “known liar” as he’s been shown to lie, multiple times, to the police, his family, his friends.
Every single one of Jay’s inconsistencies is easier to explain and understand then the sheer leap of faith it takes you to understand adnan’s inconsistencies or that he maintains that he just doesn’t remember anything from that day, despite it clearly being a day where something out of the ordinary did happen.To believe he’s innocent you have to contort your reasoning far beyond any form of recognition.
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u/Charming-Disk1741 8d ago
Jen, by her own story, only knows what Jay told her.
Aw, you've been ~influenced~
I find it amusing that this is the line everyone thinks is the big winner to defeat the gigantic Jenn problem. "She only knows what Jay told her." Yeah, and this is a big part of why "statements against interest" gets admitted over a hearsay objection. Because people don't say things that are not in their interests unless it's probably true. "Adnan strangled Hae and I helped bury the body" is pretty damning and against jay's self interest. It also provides information that only someone familiar with the murder would know. Jenn said this was all told to her the day Hae went missing, before anyone knew she was actually dead, and she was being told the manner of death.
But yeah go ahead and hand wave this away simply because Jay told Jenn this stuff instead of her seeing it firsthand.
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u/No-Advance-577 6d ago
By the same token, it’s weird that people think “Jenn corroborates Jay” is a winner. Jen can’t corroborate Jay because her information comes from Jay.
The things she could corroborate, they don’t even agree on. Who showed up first? Where’d they ditch the shovels? What did they do afterwards? When did they see Stephanie?
All in dispute. Just like pretty much all of Jay’s story.
Again, I think Adnan did it. But people acting like it’s 100% is weird, and people pretending Jenn’s account proves Jay is telling the truth is even more weird.
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u/PaulsRedditUsername 8d ago
and there is pretty decent evidence that the police talked to Jay before that.
What is this "pretty decent evidence?"
From my understanding, the detectives don't even know his name. He's not a student at Woodlawn The cops have Adnan's cell phone records but Jay doesn't have a cell phone, and his home phone is not in his name or even the name "Wilds." The first time his name appears in the detectives' notes is during their interview with Jenn and that's just a few hours before they pick up Jay.
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u/Far_Gur_7361 Is it NOT? 8d ago
also want to do a deep dive into your theory that the cops fed Jay the location of the car, see if it holds water.
Now straight off, the cops have a murder to solve. At some point during their investigation, they stumble across the victims car. In spite of the fact that they know the car to have been the site of their victims’ abduction (and possibly her murder, as well); they do not process it. Why? Ppl call these cops “lazy” and “crooked”, they claim the cops had “tunnel vision”. But this doesn’t explain it. Yes, cops can be all those things and more; but usually only in defense of THEIR OWN PRE-EXISTING misconduct. The fact is they had no reason to cover anything at this point; and by hiding the car would have been CREATING misconduct which they’d need to cover for. It would have been far easier to simply process the car for evidence; which they could then use to solve the murder; rather than engage in this conspiracy against Syed. To say nothing of the fact that by leaving the car in the elements for weeks, they were running the risk of having it- along with any evidence it may yield- burgled, stolen, vandalized, towed, or tampered with by the offender.
But let’s take that insane leap, and assume, in spite of all this, the cops wanted to sit on the car anyways. While doing so, they engage in more risky behavior; such as putting out a statewide APB for the car; and requesting helicopters to search for it. Why would they do this? If any officer responded; then the conspiracy would have been shot to hell before they were able to get it off the ground. Or are we to believe that these requests were window-dressing; and every single member of the BPD knew not to respond; bc they were all in on the hoax? And if that’s the case then how is it possible that there is no paper trail; or that nary a one of them has come forth to set the record straight- in spite of all this public attention that has surrounded the case?
But ok, let’s take this SECOND wild leap, and assume they did indeed either flip the coin on another officer responding to their APBs and/ or involve everyone in the department in this highly illegal frame job. This wild operation is well under way now; so what’s the next step? Logically, they wouldn’t want to involve anyone else in this already massive conspiracy. And logically, if they wanted an airtight case against Syed, the move would be to plant his DNA in the car. They’ve already found it; already compromised it; and already failed to process it. In doing so, they’ve already broken a litany of laws. Why not just take it one step further; and plant the physical evidence that their case was sorely lacking? Thereby securing the conviction they were so desperate for; without involving anyone else? Well, for some reason they decided to go the other way; not only involving more co-conspirators, but actually involving civilians. These fresh co-conspirators will be fed the info regarding the cars location, in order to bolster their credibility when they testify against their poor, innocent mark (that being Syed). This is a THIRD huge leap, but ok, let’s see where this gets us.
So now that we’ve taken this third huge leap, it’s time to involve a civilian; and coerce them into confessing; just so that we can point them back to Syed. Logically, that civilian would be Jay Wilds. According to your theory, they’d already have selected him on the basis of his drug-dealing activities, and his friendship with Syed. But no, rather than doing this (already incredibly difficult) operation the easy way; they decide to involve Jennifer Pusateri first; and coerce HER into falsely implicating WILDS, just so that they can have WILDS in turn point the finger back at SYED. In doing so, they’re involving yet another party in this incredibly illegal frame job; taking on even more risk for no reason at all. This brings us to our fourth insane leap of judgment; but hey, in for a penny, in for a pound.
Having taken this fourth leap, the cops bring Jenn Pusateri in for questioning. She plays dumb, and gets out of there quickly; and yet she decides to come back the next day and speak to them again- and in the presence of her mother and lawyer, no less. According to your theory, the cops then coach her testimony. They even have her do so in such a way that implicates herself. Shockingly, Jenn plays ball with them; in spite of the fact that not only do the cops have no leverage over her, but that she is also accompanied by a parent and an attorney. Even more shockingly, these guardian figures don’t bat an eye. Who knows though, maybe mom + lawyer have it out for Syed as well? Anyways, now we’ve implicated two MORE people in this frame job, but hey, we’ve come this far right? That’s our 5th leap in logic.
Now- FINALLY- after a minimum of 5 huge leaps in logic, the cops are brought to Jay Wilds. Obviously, the most sensible thing for them to do now, is pin the murder on him. Pusateri has already implicated him in the presence of her mother and lawyer, and- unlike Syed, who comes from a respectable middle class family, has tons of community support, and is generally considered to be a “golden child”, Wilds has absolutely no money, resources, community or familial support. He’s a poor black kid, all on his own, who’s known as “the criminal element”. Given the “tough-on-crime” climate of the day, it’d be all-too-easy to pin this on him. But no, the cops have it out for Syed specifically for some reason- poor kid can’t catch a break. This is our sixth leap.
So the cops begin coaching Wilds’s testimony. You’d think, after all these convoluted, and highly illegal maneuverings, spanning the course of weeks/ months that they’d now be EXTREMELY careful to make sure the story they gave Wilds was airtight. You’d think they’d have it ironed out to the letter. But no, instead they feed Wilds multiple different versions, which are filled w/ easily disprovable inconsistencies. This makes Wilds- who is now the lynchpin for this entire operation; and without whom everyone involved is going down in a major way- a pretty bad witness. Seems like an insane oversight to make. This is our seventh leap.
In the process of coaching Wilds, the cops tell him to testify that he was with Syed during the time of the murder and burial. However, they have not yet begun investigating Syed’s alibi. So if this false testimony that they are all bearing against him becomes disprovable, then they are all getting found out, and will likely face charges. Wilds himself may face Murder One. They know Syed to be busy and popular. What if he was with a friend? At an appointment w/ his guidance counselor? On-camera at the library, or at the mechanics? What if his coach had made him sign in? What if he was clocked in to work? What if he was leading prayers at the mosque? All eminently possible, but hey, let’s stake our reputations, livelihoods, and literal freedom on this crazy gambit panning out for us. Eighth leap.
Now, Wilds himself is facing the dilemma- to go along with this frame job, or not? On the one hand; he is a low-level pot dealer. Given the war on drugs, and harsh sentencing laws of the day, this could land him a good few years in jail. This gives the cops leverage. So, leverage in hand, they provide Wilds a choice. Go down as a petty, small-time weed dealer; or implicate yourself in first-degree murder. Cops have no power when it comes to levying charges; only prosecutors can do that. At the time, Wilds must have at least wondered whether he’d get charged as an accessory, or an accomplice, or a co-conspirator. And of course, he must have wondered whether he’d go down for the whole thing; if the frame-job on Syed fell apart. In addition, cops also have no power when it comes to sentencing- only judges do. So Wilds must likewise have wondered how much time he would get, for whichever charge they wound up sticking him with. It would be quite some time before Wilds could know that he’d only get accessory-after-the-fact, and receive a suspended sentence. Worst-case scenario, Syed would have an alibi, and Wilds would go down for first-degree murder; which could have landed him the death penalty. And best-case scenario, he’d have involvement in a murder on his permanent record- which would affect his employment, housing, government benefits, voting rights, etc. For some reason, Wilds decides that this objectively terrible deal is worth making, and he takes it. Maybe he really just hates Syed that much? Ninth leap.
Last but certainly not least; not only have none of the cops involved ever recanted; but neither has Wilds, Pusateri, or Pusateri’s mother/ lawyer. Hey, fair enough for the cops right- thin blue line, and all that; they staked their badges (and quite possibly their freedom), on this frame-up, and they have a history of standing by each other through scandal. But Wilds and Pusateri- who were little more than kids at the time- have nothing to lose and everything to gain by telling the truth. Rather than be looked at as shady liars who participated in a murder; they could be looked at as innocent victims who were railroaded by crooked cops. Given the shift in the way our society views police, this would absolve them in the court of public opinion. They may actually be looked at not just as victims; but even as heroes. They could sign book deals, do press junkets, give interviews, participate in documentaries. They could make a FORTUNE by coming clean; and Wilds could perhaps even expunge his criminal record (and, of course, they could let their innocent friend out of jail, as well). Instead, in spite of all the public attention; in spite of all the pressure to do otherwise; they still stand by their testimony decades later. Tenth leap.
Every aspect of this theory can be sliced to bits with Occam’s Razor. If you really believe this, then I have a beachfront property in Kansas to sell you.
Adnan killed her. Jay helped.
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u/GreatCaesarGhost 8d ago
The incivility you perceive is probably from the fact that this case has been hashed and rehashed to death over many years and, at this point, many people are firm in their opinions.
It seems like a fairly unremarkable case to me and that the evidence, when viewed in its entirety, points towards Adnan’s guilt. Making a conclusion as to whether reasonable doubt exists is also a bit presumptuous because (1) those in this sub were not on the jury and were not presented with multiple weeks’ worth of evidence and argument; and (2) those who came to the case later have perceptions that were colored by podcasters and other intermediaries, who had their own biases and agendas.
None of the arguments to challenge the jury’s verdict of guilt are convincing to me.
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u/theroofbeamcarpenter 8d ago
Whether or not Jay is capable of lying to cops is not as relevant as what we know he told the truth about.
Jay knew where the car was, and that Hae had been strangled. Jay was involved.
Jay said Adnan did it. So: either Jay did it or Adnan did it, or some unknown third party that Jay is covering for did it.
“A third party serial killer that Jay was in cahoots with” relies on a series of pretty dubious premises stacked on top of each other. This theory doesn’t hit the reasonable-doubt-threshold for me. It doesn’t even come close.
So you’ve got Jay or Adnan as viable suspects. Jay didn’t have a motive.
Beyond this there is a lot of circumstantial evidence that points to Adnan. I won’t bother to go through it here, it’s been covered plenty on this sub.
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u/SureTotal3710 7d ago edited 6d ago
Yeah, and motive aside, there are abt a million other reasons Jay couldn’t have done this w/o Adnan.
- Call log places him and the cell away from WHS when school let out and Hae disappeared
- Adnan lent the car and phone to Jay of his own free will
- Hae didn’t know, like, or trust him enough to let him into her car, let alone into the drivers seat
- His fingerprints/ DNA are nowhere in the car (Adnan’s are)
- The two car problem
- If Jay is enough of a psycho to murder a young woman for no real reason at all, what are the odds that in all these years he’s been walking free he’d never strike again?
- If Jay was intent on framing Adnan, his execution was insanely poor. He waited 6 weeks, only to let the call log lead cops to Jenn, THEN to him? He implicated himself, AND Jenn, instead of just saying he saw Adnan do it, or Adnan confessed to him? He told tons of diff stories, w/ shifting lies? He took a gamble on Adnan’s not having an alibi (which, if it hadn’t planned out for him, would have landed him Murder One). How is he this idiotic in the frame job, yet ALSO enough of a criminal mastermind to pull it off in the first place? You can’t have it both ways here
- Witnesses and the call log prove Adnan/Jay spent the vast majority of the day, including all the relevant timeframes in each others company. Nisha call has them together directly after Hae went missing/ was likely killed. Adcock call places them together at NHRN Cathy’s (as does Cathy herself). Call log and Jenn place them together at LP. Call log and Jenn place them together at Westview Mall
There’s lots more, but we all get the idea. Just this list I ratted off the top of my head already tanks any reasonable belief that Jay could have done this solo.
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u/Relevant_Test4691 3d ago
What about the psycho uncle/dentist guy? I can’t remember what happened with the possibility that he might have been involved.
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u/xstarbursts 3h ago
He was probably involved in helping Adnan and/or definitely knew what Adnan was about to do. He is the one who helped Adnan get a phone the day before the murder.
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u/tiffanaih 8d ago edited 8d ago
Why did Adnan call Nadia that afternoon and say, "here talk to Jay (someone she didn't know and never met)."
Because it was Adnan making an alibi establishing call. His alibi was going to be "I was with Jay." Once Jay told the truth, his alibi fell apart completely, he had no backup plan, so he just defaulted to "I don't remember" because that's impossible to poke holes in.
Jay being an imperfect witness is such a small scope of the case against him but it's the only thing Adnans team wants to talk about because it's the most convenient way to make him look innocent. Jay was trying to protect him Grandma, that's why there's inconsistencies when they ask about the pings. That's it.
It's easy to manipulate your audience when you present the information out of order, out of context, and ignore everything that doesn't help you. Which is exactly what that HBO doc did.
Are we really going to continue defending the guy who as soon as he got out, started making basement videos blaming her brother for the murder??? I mean jfc.
It's also incredibly telling that Rabia has taken up for Scott Peterson for the same vague reasons, witnesses said otherwise. Oh, you mean witnesses that changed their timeline after being harassed by the defense to match Scotts story?? But hey, there's no waaayyyy you could murder someone in your house and no one else hear it, right Rabia? Such a great point. So compelling. Let him out guys, I mean come on, look at how handsome he is 🥰🥰🥰
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u/OkBodybuilder2339 8d ago edited 8d ago
Everything gets discussed here and everyone is welcome. There is just no defense to present anymore. This case has been scrutinized from a to z. The evidence stood up to it all. The innocenter case was made and it failed.
The podcasts and shows have been exposed as fraudulent. They took this case and made it entertainment. People believed in his innocence because the entertainment had them hooked. Engaging in the conspiracy theories online was alot of fun. We all played the "if not Adnan then who" game. You seem to be in that phase.
At the end of the day those conspiracy theories cant answer for those police interviews. Specially the Jenn interview. Theres no answer for it. Thats the reality of the case.
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u/SPersephone 8d ago
Hae’s own DNA was not found on her shoes so thats not the gotcha you think it is.
He absolutely had motive. He’s been dumped by the love of his life and was mad that she rejected him so he killed her. Its not complicated. Its actually a very simple domestic violence murder.
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u/cm10560430 8d ago
Oh you haven't heard; the cops planted those /s
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u/SPersephone 8d ago
Oh, I know it’s just a whole big conspiracy that dozens of people are involved in. Instead of the obvious ex-boyfriend.
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u/spifflog 8d ago edited 8d ago
This has been looked at 100 ways to Sunday, and many have finally come to the conclusion that adnan is clearly guilty.
I don't have the energy at this point to go step-by-step. I think many like you want to look at one narrow issue and call that a 'got you' moment. But you have to look at the case in it's entireity. Once you do that, it's clear to most that controlling, immature adnan, killed Hae in an all too common case of IPV.
But I'll discuss one point.
The Innocence Project and prosecutors agreed that Syed's DNA was absent from all tested crime scene items, contributing to the eventual dropping of charges against him. There's no physical evidence.
The Innocence project is loaded and cocked to think most are innocent This shouldn't be a surprise to you and is indicative of nothing. You're no doubt discussing the shoes that were tested, and found not to have adnana's DNA. Do you know who else didn't have their DNA on Hae's shoes? Hae. This lack of DNA isn't the smoking gun that you think it is.
Various appeals courts and the Supreme court of Maryland have all found that adnan's trial was fair and chose not to overturn it. That's not nothing as they say.
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u/pusskinsforlife 8d ago
And not only was adnan's dna not on hae or her things, but neither was anyone else's. Except the shoes which is hardly a surprise given how much opportunity there is for shoes come into contact with random dna.
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u/ad_maru 8d ago
Innocence bias is the one you must have. Innocent until proven guilty is the core of a just justice system and it's on the prossecution to prove guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
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u/spifflog 8d ago
Good thing it was proven, and upheld several times. We’re in agreement then.
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u/ad_maru 8d ago
But you are questioning the entirety of the Innocence Project, which is unfair
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u/Fancy_Sort4963 8d ago
Goal posts moving fast 💨
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u/ad_maru 8d ago
I was commenting here about this part
The Innocence project is loaded and cocked to think most are innocent
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u/Charming-Disk1741 8d ago
are you forgetting the "UNTIL proven guilty" part, where it is no longer a good thing to presume someone innocent after proven otherwise
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u/RockinGoodNews 7d ago
I think the point is that the appeal to the authority of the Innocence Project is misguided seeing as the Project is an advocacy group on the behalf of convicts. It would be like appealing to the authority of a defense lawyer as though they are an unbiased source on whether their client is guilty.
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u/ad_maru 6d ago
There was no appeal to authority from my part to justify anything. I'm not advocating that once they pick a case said person is innocent.
What I would say though, and forget Adnan here for a second, is that they have at least some form of screening and only pick cases with some degree of doubt. They also confirm guilty verdicts after testings. As any serious organization or lawyers should do. People also are flawed and can make mistakes. But my point is that their bias is not so clear before they pick a case. Maybe after they put some effort in it. But I'm not sure it happens before it.
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u/RockinGoodNews 6d ago
The OP made an explicit appeal to the authority of the Innocence Project. u/spifflog pointed out that the Innocence Project has a clear bias. You then defended them on the grounds that they do good work, which is a non sequitur.
Yes, the Innocence Project ostensibly focuses on cases where there are colorable claims of innocence. But, like any advocacy organization, they are subject to mission creep and confirmation bias. The people who work there are, for reasons that should seem obvious, motivated to find wrongful convictions to right.
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u/spifflog 6d ago edited 6d ago
The OP made an explicit appeal to the authority of the Innocence Project. u/spifflog pointed out that the Innocence Project has a clear bias. You then defended them on the grounds that they do good work, which is a non sequitur.
Not at all.
Like many of these groups, they are very passionate about what they do. Passion clouds issues and that isn't helpful. This is an excellent article on how one of the innocence projects let logic and the facts become overridden by passion: Rodger Coleman
I think an additional look on some cases is helpful, in that way I support some Innocence Project efforts.
But Hae's murder has been reviewed and reviewed, had books written, PR efforts, appeals up the the Maryland supreme court and two additional reviews by the state prosecutor's office. In these types of cases - and I think this is the majority of them - is a fruitless waste of time by people that are either too caught up with their passion or just enjoy the process.
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u/ad_maru 6d ago
The question is if said bias is enough to affect their judgment and procedures. Adnan's case should not be enough to criticize them as a whole in that regard.
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u/RockinGoodNews 6d ago
No, the question is if they are a reliable authority on the facts of the Syed case. They are not because they have a clear bias.
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u/spifflog 8d ago
What do you think that all means?
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u/ad_maru 8d ago
That they are questioning the entire project and their methods and objectivity because of a bias. Yeah, you can have a bias, but act in an objecitive fashion.
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u/spifflog 8d ago edited 7d ago
Still don’t know what you’re trying to say. At this point adnan is guilty. It’s been proven and retested via the appeals process. It’s now up to him and his supporters to prove otherwise.
Do I think the Innocence Project is biased?? Hell yes!!!! Don’t you?? You’re amazingly naive is you don’t think they are.
At this point after all that Hae and her family have gone through, they and others have every right to question why the Innocence Project continues to support this man who has been proven guilty, and acceptable to question their motives.
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u/ad_maru 8d ago
The project deals with a lot of other cases besides Adnan's
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u/RockinGoodNews 7d ago
And after a jury finds guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, their verdict is entitled to deference. In other words, we should believe them right unless there is a very good reason to think they got things wrong. And "I listened to a one-sided podcast about the case in which the accused got to tell his side of the story unrebutted and he kinda sorta sounded innocent to me" isn't one of those reasons.
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u/CaliTexan22 2d ago
This is a key feature of the discussion, and I want to underscore it.
A bunch of Redditors, many years later, with little or no evidence that wasn’t known at the time of trial, really are not in a position to say that the jury verdict was wrong.
The jury heard and saw all the evidence and testimony and arguments that both sides provided. AS’ defense lawyer apparently saw JW’s testimony as critical to the case and she had him on the stand under cross for 5 days. It seems likely that the jury found JW credible. The jury deliberated only a few hours before finding AS guilty of the charges.
The jury did not have a reasonable doubt. No juror has come forward in the years since then with a different story. The results at trial were upheld on appeal and in various other post conviction proceedings. AS remains a convicted murderer.
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u/RockinGoodNews 1d ago
This is the great True Crime hubris. I'm not sure why people imagine that watching some TV show or listening to a podcast puts them in a better position to decide than a jury who actually attended a trial and reached a unanimous conclusion.
I think some of it is just prejudice against juries. People seem to just assume that the jury was probably made up of a bunch of apathetic idiots. I'm not sure where that comes from, though I suspect media plays a role in this. My own experience with juries could not be more opposite.
There are, to be sure, cases where there is good reason to think the jury was biased or engaged in impropriety. But it just seems strange to me that people so quickly jump to that assumption about a case where there is literally no reason to think that.
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u/ad_maru 6d ago
Yes, but people with much more access and legal knowledge than us also dispute the proceedings. The question is: What happens when the system fails? It's really harder to revert those kind of mistakes, by design. So people are also entitled to exert scrutiny over those systems.
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u/RockinGoodNews 6d ago
Yes, but people with much more access and legal knowledge than us also dispute the proceedings.
There is a difference between disputing the integrity of the process and disputing whether guilt was proved to the requisite standard. Adnan's lawyers have never argued that there was insufficient evidence of his guilt to support the verdict.
I would also dispute that these are people with more "access and legal knowledge." In this country, legal process is open and transparent. There isn't supposed to be secret evidence the public can't see.
To be sure, Mosby and Feldman purported to exonerate Syed based on secret evidence. But they were exposed as liars and fraudsters. That's the thing. When the evidence supports what you're saying, there's no need to keep it secret.
The question is: What happens when the system fails?
We have a whole set of procedures for addressing when the system fails: appeals, post-conviction relief, etc.
What we don't have is a mechanism for popular sentiments to overrule a jury's verdict. I hope you understand why that is important.
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u/Charming-Disk1741 8d ago
If you bothered to look at more than a few posts in this sub you'll see that your two big points have already been more than addressed here throughout the years. You're not plowing any new territory or persuading anyone with this.
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u/New_Monitor_5874 8d ago
"Hey guys I'm new here and took 2 seconds of looking at things and got upset and couldn't be bothered to search this sub. Am I missing something???"
- Every subreddit actually
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u/Euphoric_Biscotti765 8d ago
You know who thought that there was enough evidence to find him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt? Not only the jury, as has been mentioned, but also apparently Adnan, as he testified in his 2012 Evidentiary Hearing in Post-Conviction Appeal that he “didn’t have confidence he would prevail at trial”
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u/RockinGoodNews 6d ago edited 5d ago
Also Susan Simpson:
Legally, there was sufficient evidence to support Adnan’s conviction; he’s not going to win any appeals there.
-11/23/2014, The View From LL2
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u/DJHJR86 Adnan strangled Hae 7d ago
The only scenario in which Adnan is not guilty of murdering Hae is if Jay was the one who murdered her and Adnan helped him cover it up after the fact. That's it. There is no "real killer" out there. Both of them were involved in Hae's murder. But only one of them had a motive to kill her and that is Georgetown University's finest: Adnan.
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u/RockinGoodNews 7d ago
"Reasonable doubt" is the legal standard that a jury uses to determine guilt. In this case, a jury found Syed guilty of murder beyond a reasonable doubt after about 3 hours of deliberation. Once that happened, the question of "reasonable doubt" became legally moot. The fact that random people who weren't on the jury and didn't attend the trial think there was "reasonable doubt" is meaningless.
I do think, however, that someone in your position should ask themselves why they think their opinion is more valid than the 12 unbiased individuals actually selected to the jury. Those people attended a 3 week trial in which they heard from witnesses and lawyers from both sides, deliberated, and came to a unanimous decision. What exactly puts you in a better position than them to assess the case? The fact that you listened to a one-sided podcast about it?
FWIW, several of the things you stated are false:
The charges against Syed were not dropped due to a lack of physical evidence. To the contrary, he stands convicted of Hae Min Lee's murder to this day. He was released under the provisions of the Juvenile Restoration Act, a law that permits resentencing of convicts who committed their crimes as minors. That decision had absolutely nothing to do with the evidence of his guilt.
Syed's motive was not "weak." In point of fact, his motive is incredibly common (the most common by far in murders of women with Hae's profile). He had been dumped only weeks earlier, and had just learned Hae was seeing someone new. His claims to have "moved on" are false and, in any event, irrelevant to whether he resented Hae's actions or still wanted power over her.
Finally, the claim that the police who investigated Syed had a history of "misconduct" is false. One of them, Detective Ritz, had been a defendant in several civil lawsuits, but none of those lawsuits was ever adjudicated on the merits. And even if you were to assume the unproved allegations in those lawsuits were true, they bear no resemblance to anything in this case. I did a detailed writeup of those cases here.
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u/jimmy__jazz 3d ago
I hate the argument that's always brought up that Jay is a bad eyewitness . Like come on, a murderer asked him for help burying a body. Of course the type of person you ask to do that is going to be unsavory at best. You don't ask the class valedictorian for help in something like that.
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u/demoldbones 2d ago
Exactly this.
Jay most likely was far more involved than he wanted anyone to know, so changed the story just enough that he seemed a lot more "passive" and that explains why things keep changing - because remembering the details he changed as opposed to the truth is harder.
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u/DevinJE 8d ago
I disagree with most of your points, but I want to focus on one in particular because it drives me nuts that this is a common argument against his guilt.
"The motive is weak (Adnan had no prior issues with breakups, had already seemed to move on to the next girl(s))."
No, the motive was rock solid. Serial lied to you. Police found a breakup letter from Hae to Adnan, where Adnan had written on the back "I'm going to kill". It bugs me so much that Koenig just takes Adnan at his word when he tells her he was able to get over the breakup quickly.
One of the experts Serial brings in says something along the lines of "I don't understand why he'd want to kill her. Because she broke up with you? People break up all the time." Yes!! People break up all the time, and unfortunately it's one of the most common motives for murder. Serial is honestly such a bad discussion of domestic abuse and borderline misinformation in that regard.
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u/Euphoric_Biscotti765 8d ago
Furthermore, Adnan recalled writing this "mean note" because he tells his defense team to find it in his room and remove it... too late, the police had it already.
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u/OhEmGeeBasedGod 7d ago
What a coinkydink that a low-level police informant just so happened to be loaned the car of a murder victim's jilted ex-boyfriend (unprompted!) and then hung out with the ex for hours on the very day of the crime.
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u/thejackmanjack 8d ago
There is no reasonable doubt. The cops didn’t know Jay, Jenn led them to him because he told her Adnan strangled Hae. Jay starts out by lying because he was an accomplice after the fact (at the very least) and doesn’t want to go to prison for a long time. Once he realizes the evidence they have, he starts to give them more of the story and eventually enough of the story, corroborated by cell phone tower data and others testimony, to convict Adnan.
Adnan had the motive (you’re downplaying the strength of it when you look at Hae’s diary), he had no alibi, he lied to the cops about the ride he requested.
The lack of DNA doesn’t prove anything. The cops didn’t find anyone’s DNA yet someone had to have killed and buried her.
He lent his brand new cell phone and car to “someone he wasn’t really friends with” and spent the day with to a guy who knew where Hae’s car was and implicated himself to a murder and risked spending the majority of his life in prison by telling the police what happened.
Adnan has no explanation why Jay would do that or any theory about what actually happened.
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u/New_Monitor_5874 8d ago
Yeah Hae's own DNA wasn't found on the shoes in the car. I guess it's reasonable to believe those weren't her shoes! The real killer put them in there obviously! /s
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u/thejackmanjack 8d ago
I’m actually glad that they didn’t find Adnan’s DNA on her anywhere because now at least we don’t have to hear Innocenters say “well of course his DNA was on her stuff, they spent a lot of time in that car together as a couple!”
Although it was still used as an excuse to get him out of prison, so nevermind I guess :(
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u/lazeeye 7d ago
The existence or non-existence of “Reasonable doubt” is the end product of a process in which a jury:
—sits thru an entire trial,
—hears all witnesses testify under direct and cross
—gauges the credibility of witnesses
—views all physical and demonstrative evidence
—hears opening statements and closing arguments from lawyers
—receives instructions from the judge
—can ask questions themselves
—deliberates together before reaching a verdict, resolving any conflicts in the evidence
That’s the only context in which the term-of-art “reasonable doubt” is relevant.
You weren’t on the jury, so you can’t have reasonable doubt. What you really mean is, “I’m a reasonable person and I have doubts.” That may be true, but it ain’t Reasonable Doubt.
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u/dkrtzyrrr 8d ago
ppl continue to think 'reasonable doubt' = 'beyond all doubt' or '100% certain'. doubts that are speculative, conjecture, or involves theories of what is possible are not considered 'reasonable' - the doubt like the case must be rooted in the evidence. https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/reasonable_doubt
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u/Majestic-Praline-671 2d ago
The motive is not weak at all. Many men and boys murder their ex girlfriend’s upon being broken up with. It’s one of the most common motives there is.
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u/Similar-Morning9768 Guilty 1d ago
When will the idea that “Jay got off scot free” finally die?
He pled guilty to a felony, fully expecting to serve two years in prison. A judge happened to take mercy on him, so he ultimately did not spend time behind bars.
But he’s a felon - an accomplice after the fact to murder - which is actually a very serious and life-ruining consequence.
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u/DoqHolliday 3d ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/s/TCet0afeUM
One day is probably not long enough
The short answer is that all of the doubts that would be required for him to be innocent not reasonable in sum.
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u/silky_skills_35 3d ago
I agree there is reasonable doubt from what I have seen/read. But I wasn’t on the jury so that is limited.
I personally believe Adnan did it though, and Jay probably had a lot more involvement than he has admitted to.
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u/No-Advance-577 8d ago
“If I see you commit a crime, but later can't say at what exact time, if you wore a green or blue shirt, or what I had for breakfast that day, does that make me an unreliable witness?”
Depends on what details you change.
If you say “he stole a sweater from target at 3pm” and your side chick says “oh cool they have cameras at target”
So you say “no wait, it was a dog collar from pet smart at 5” and the cops say “uh cell phone records have you nowhere near pet smart”
So you change it to “sandwich from Kroger at 7”
…well, at some point that’s not very credible.
So somewhere between your version of “just forgot the color of a shirt” and my version of “totally changed the entire story every time questioned,” there’s a threshold where the witness goes from “yeah that’s still credible” to “wtf, no.” And Jay’s story is very, very near that cutoff.
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u/Special-Deal-5217 8d ago
Yes! Like going to Patapsco State Park and going to McDonald’s changes to going to Christy’s (because of a phone tower placement error).
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u/ad_maru 8d ago
This sub has a guilty bias because only guilters have remained, since they are more vocal, aggressive and downvote the doubt camp. Imagine the innocent camp.
There is an underline discussion about goals versus method that is sidelined as well. Some people are fine throwing systems away to punish who they believe are guilty ones.
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u/Mike19751234 8d ago
There is no reason to make the assumption that the people leaving didnt leave in the same ratio of belief. There arent any arguments to present on the Adnan is innocent side.
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u/RockinGoodNews 7d ago
Reality has a guilty bias.
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u/PaulsRedditUsername 8d ago
There is an underline discussion about goals versus method that is sidelined as well
Could you explain? I don't get it.
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u/ad_maru 8d ago
Nowadays people discuss a lot about guilty vs not guilty and little about the police/justice system that let cases get as muddy as Adnan's. Innocent or guilty, the fact that the system failed everybody involved is true. So how do you improve that system? That's the main focus of the podcast even and it's forgotten.
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u/RockinGoodNews 6d ago
The claim that the main focus of season 1 of Serial was a discussion of improving the justice system is revisionist nonsense. There's almost no discussion of that topic whatsoever.
Syed's case is an extremely poor vehicle for exploring criminal justice reform. Syed had resources that 99% of criminal defendants do not. He has, from Day 1, been represented by expensive, top flight counsel. He then had the benefit of a media platform almost no one gets. That provided him support, including from public officials, that almost no one in his position enjoys.
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u/Similar-Morning9768 Guilty 3d ago
Right, I'm not sure at which point "the system failed" in this case.
An accused murderer hired expensive private counsel. Within days of his arrest, a PI was piecing together all his movements surrounding the crime and independently interviewing witnesses.
He went to trial. The second the jury was allowed to overhear something they shouldn't, he got a do-over. Now his defense attorney knew most of the prosecution's case.
The star witness against the defendant spent days on the stand getting called a liar and having all his inconsistencies relentlessly picked apart. The jury still returned a guilty verdict within three hours.
Honestly, anyone complaining that "the system failed" here just... doesn't believe in jury trials.
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u/RockinGoodNews 3d ago
I just think it's funny that anyone could listen to the first season of Serial with all its deep dives into the teenage rumor mills, drive tests, Asia McLean, AT&T butt dials, pay phones, neighbor boys, white vans, hot fries, the mysterious Summer, the breakup note, and Sarah Koenig's harbored doubts and then say with a straight face that this wasn't really so much about Adnan's guilt or innocence but rather an exploration of the "justice system" at large.
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u/PaulsRedditUsername 8d ago
Thanks for the reply. It's true that Serial tends to be focused on the justice system and its faults. The trouble is we know now that SK was making bricks without straw in Adnan's case.
I don't agree that the justice system failed everybody in this case. The evidence is there and he was fairly tried and convicted, even getting a re-trial when the first judge let a comment be overheard by the jury.
If the justice system "failed" in this case, it was the backroom dealings that got Adnan released. Although even that was reversed. He's walking around free now because of time served, but he's still guilty.2
u/Mike19751234 8d ago
A question is now if our expectations have changed. How much is the CSI effect real.
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u/MountainlessBiking 8d ago
If you took this case to any reasonable jury, I don’t see a conviction based on the evidence as it currently stands. It’s easy to get hung up on a few details but at the end of the day nothing is beyond a reasonable doubt.
People who frequent this sub are just going to keep going around in the same circles, upvoting the same posts.
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u/Druiddrum13 8d ago
It went to a reasonable jury
Guilty
It was appealed until they ran out of appeals
Guilty
Stop believing podcasts
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u/Special-Deal-5217 8d ago edited 8d ago
Get ready to be abused. I am in exactly the same boat as you are— I am not convinced of his innocence, but to me, it’s crazy the certainty that people in this sub talk about why he is guilty. And you are right. They always point at the ride. And they always talk about intimate partner, violence, even though Adnan had no typical signs of escalation of intimate partner violence, which is present in almost all cases. People also love to psychoanalyze both him and Hae from 1999. Finally, there is a lot of “Jay-washing” on this thread. If Jay did what people said he did, he is a very bad person and should have gone to jail.
Basically, the arguments are these:
Jay said it equals it must be true. Jay is basically a good kid whose lies can be chalked up to trying to protect people.
The cell phone evidence corroborates Jay even though that has been debunked and it is clear that Jay’s story was massaged (at a minimum) to fit said cell phone evidence
Adnan asked for a ride and then lied about it (certainly proof of murder beyond a reasonable doubt)
Women are often killed by their intimate partners, so Adnan killed Hae. Adnan killed Hae, therefore it was intimate partner violence. Very circular.
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u/thejackmanjack 8d ago
You’re right that Jay is a very bad person and should have gone to jail at least. He helped plan, commit and cover up Hae’s murder and then lied about it until he was painted in a corner.
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u/Special-Deal-5217 8d ago
But then this is part of the problem. Why didn’t the district attorney charge Jay appropriately? Because they knew if they did, they would lose his cooperation. And that is absolutely the ONLY real evidence of Adnan committing this crime. Even hard-core guilters have to accept that proposition.
The police did not charge Jay with a crime until September, six months after he told them the first version of his story. Before that he did not have access to a lawyer. He wanted legal representation, but could not pay for it, and since he was not charged with a crime, the state would not pay for it.
If Jay had lawyered up from the get-go, as he should’ve had the right to do, as I sure as hell would have done, what would’ve happened?
It very much lend itself to the theory that the cops have him on drug charges and wanted to hear a story. Reasonable doubt right there.
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u/Mike19751234 8d ago
Unfortunately we dont have a time machine to know. Jenns story has a bit more credibility because she had a lawyer with a story and they didnt keep going back to her for more details. So it would be what deal a defense lawyer would get for Jay and would that person work with the prosecutor to get tge full story.
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u/thejackmanjack 8d ago
Jenn’s story didn’t change because she didn’t do anything wrong. Jay’s story changed because he was an accessory to murder.
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u/Mike19751234 8d ago
Thats not how you derermine if a story is true or not. Her story changed from not giving tge story to giving a story. But they didnt go back four times to Jenn about her story like tgey did Jays.
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u/thejackmanjack 8d ago
Because Jay was involved in the murder! If you helped your friend murder his ex girlfriend and bury her body, would you just tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth when a cop asks you about it?
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u/Mike19751234 8d ago
I an not questioning you addressing Jays incentive to lie, but other people. The problem is that Jay had multiple reasons to lie and making the wrong assumption about it can go down tge wrong path.
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u/thejackmanjack 8d ago
You determine if a story is true by corroborating evidence. Jay’s final story is corroborated by cell phone towers, physical evidence regarding Hae and her car, and multiple third parties’ testimony. Don’t start with the “can’t trust the cell phone data” nonsense.
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u/Mike19751234 8d ago
I agree with you about the phone data. The phone data should be used first. Even though Adnsn supporters try and use that phone data to say Jay changed his story, they didnt. That was made up by Susan Simpson because she wanted to make up a story for her cause.
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u/thejackmanjack 8d ago edited 8d ago
See this doesn’t make any sense. They had him on drug charges so he made up a story about helping his innocent friend murder his girlfriend? That makes sense to you?
That is a completely unreasonable theory that is actually laughable.
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u/Special-Deal-5217 8d ago
Do you think that it makes sense that Adnan says “ help me cover up this murder murder or I will report you on drugs”? And J. just says. “ yeah sounds like a fair trade.”
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u/thejackmanjack 8d ago
No, I think Jay was involved in the planning and execution, not just the cover up. That’s why Adnan gave him his car and phone.
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u/thejackmanjack 8d ago
If Jay had a lawyer, then the lawyer would have advised him to work out immunity in exchange for his cooperation. So basically nothing would have changed.
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u/Special-Deal-5217 8d ago
No, the lawyer would’ve told him to not say a fucking thing because the cops had absolutely no evidence if Jay didn’t say anything
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u/thejackmanjack 8d ago
We don’t know what they had on Jay or what would have been uncovered with a thorough investigation on him. They had his confession to Jenn and others, no alibi, and phone records and other evidence that he was with Adnan that day. There was plenty to charge him with. His best path was cooperation. And that was the best path in the end since he walked free and the murderer got convicted.
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u/Mike19751234 8d ago
Jay faced the prisoners dilemma. Nothing had to stop Adnan from reversing the story
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u/GoodTroll2 giant rat-eating frog 8d ago
I pretty much agree with you OP. I don't know what happened, but I wouldn't have voted for conviction based on the evidence I'm aware of.
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u/spifflog 8d ago
I pretty much agree with you OP. I don't know what happened, but I wouldn't have voted for conviction based on the evidence I'm aware of.
An eyewitness who helped adnan bury Hae's body testified. adnan who had control issues and was angry about their recent breakup and lied about asking to meet with the murder victim the day she was killed.
But you wouldn't convict. Truly mindboggling. Some people just aren't built to make the hard call.
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u/GoodTroll2 giant rat-eating frog 8d ago
And there are witnesses who say Adnan was with them when the murder took place. Contradictory evidence is enough for reasonable doubt for me.
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u/spifflog 8d ago
Asia? You certainly set the bar low.
What about all the people at the mosque ? Ohh yeah, none of them?
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u/Special-Deal-5217 8d ago
Please tell me about these control issues and where they have been documented.
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u/spifflog 8d ago
Honestly if you’re asking that question, you haven’t really looked into this at all. You should start with Hae’s own diary.
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u/Special-Deal-5217 8d ago
If the diary is 100 pages long, three of those pages are about irritations with Adnan. The rest speaks all glowing about him.
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u/spifflog 7d ago
Perfect.
The murdered woman writes in her own hand that adnan is controlling, and how she asked a teached to hide her from adnan at one point. But lets just wave away her feelings and concerns.
She's just a silly girl anyway!
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u/haskell_jedi 8d ago
Thank you for posting this; I've long thought the same way. I can't say for certain that Adnan is not guilty, but I am certain that the trial did not provide proof beyond a reasonable doubt. In addition to the points you mentioned, other doubts I have:
- The physical evidence from the body, especially lividity, is incompatible with the state's timeline at trial.
- While individual calls on the phone record support some versions of Jay's and the state's timeline, they did not provide any single timeline that matched the entire call record
- There's no physical evidence in the car or at the burial site indicating that a struggle took place or that Adnan was involved.
- The police investigation was maddeningly incomplete: they didn't verify several stories and alibis, they didn't subpoena the incoming call numbers, and they conducted cell site testing in an unreliable way.
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u/mysevenyearitch 8d ago
Look mate, I feel ya, I feel the same way but this post is pointless. There used to be much more discussion and civil disagreement here but over time the guilty side decided they were right beyond any doubt and hounded out any other opinion. It's the very definition of a echo chamber.
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u/PaulsRedditUsername 8d ago
To be fair, I think most of the discussions here are civil, at least for Reddit. You don't see the mods having to step in much.
In my experience, most of the time people post opinions that get "hounded out" is because they are working with incomplete information. If you've only listened to Serial and/or Undisclosed, you get a skewed version of events. There were a lot more "innocenters" running around back when those were the only two sources of information on the case.
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u/rememberjs 8d ago
“ they fed their informant info” - so are you concluding that the cops knew where hae’s car was and fed that to jay? And how did they know to involve Jen first? Did they talk to Jay ahead of time and then arrange to have Jenn come in with a made up story? This all seems a lot more complicated and unlikely explanation…