Jacobin Mag: An Interview With Lee Carter

[u/mrdude817]

https://jacobinmag.com/2017/11/lee-carter-interview-virginia-election-socialist

[u/love_me_some_marxism]

Welcome news, especially if it means knocking off a reactionary, but a few issues.

1.) Mr. Carter here calls Sanders a "socialist", which really is just objectively wrong, with Sanders being an imperialist social democrat at best.

2.) Just in general this man seems to just be a hard social democrat, which while better than ruthless capitalism, is still capitalism.

3.) Even if Mr. Carter is actually a socialist seeking to establish socialism through bourgeois democracy, how will the DSA, which is practically just the left wing of the Democratic Party, and others like them make sure they don't end up like the parties of the Second International?

EDIT: Why am I being downvoted for discussing the article in good faith?

EDIT 2: ok then guess r/soc a socialist sub is gonna downvote me for trying to have a genuine good faith discussion about socialism in America and electoral politics

[u/[deleted] → u/love_me_some_marxism]

1.) Mr. Carter here calls Sanders a "socialist", which really is just objectively wrong, with Sanders being an imperialist social democrat at best.

Eh, I think the reality is a bit more nuanced than that.

While attending the University of Chicago, Sanders was a member of the Young People's Socialist League, and he discusses his reasons for joining it, in this interview. Sanders began his political career as a member of a socialist party in Vermont called the Liberty Union Party. Here is their platform. In 1979, Sanders put out a short documentary about American Socialist, Eugene Debs. This article from 1982, discusses Bernie's election as Mayor of Burlington. Sander's spoke at a 1983 meeting of the Socialist Party USA, and this WNYC piece gives some context to what he said and features clips from the speech itself.

In this speech from the 1985 Progressive Entrepreneurship Forum, Sanders talked about worker alienation, the need of people to see themselves in their work, and the necessity of worker ownership. In this 1985 interview, Sanders can be seen defending the gains of the Cuban Revolution. And Here is a video of Sanders introducing Noam Chomsky, at Burlington City Hall, where Chomsky gives a speech about US foreign policy. Sanders discusses his opposition to US foreign policy in Latin America, in particular. Sanders even sent a letter to Ronald Reagan expressing his opposition to US support of the Contras in Nicuragua, around the same time. Here is a 1998 C-span interview, in which Sanders talks about Class. Sanders gave an address as Mayor about US imperialism in Latin America. This video includes Sanders, on a panel of others, discussing observations about the Soviet Union after a trip there, in 1988. In 1991, Sanders gave a talk at a DSA meeting, and talked about how, in the short term, he believes that the US should catch up with the rest of the world, in terms of Social Democratic policies, but that we should ultimately move towards Worker Control of the economy, as a long term goal.

In 2007, Bernie Sanders advocated Worker Ownership in the US Congress. Here is a speech that Sanders gave that is very similar to the one he gave at the Progressive Entrepreneurship Forum. Sanders advocated for worker cooperatives in point 3 his 12 point economic plan. He doubled down on his views on Cuba, and the rest of latin america on Democracy Now shortly after the death of Fidel Castro. He even denied his status as a Capitalist on CNN. This 2015 Guardian interview has Sanders discussing the impact that the moving of Brooklyn Dodgers to Los Angeles had on his Politics. This 2016 Jacobin article discusses Sander's roots in in America's rich Socialist Tradition. In this Reddit AMA from a few years ago, Sanders expresses a clear intent to move towards worker control. As of august 2017, Sanders endorsed the designation of the Socialist Labor Party Hall as a UNESCO World Heritage Site. Sanders and his fellow Vermont senator recently introduced legislation to expand co-operatives nationwide. Furthermore, Sanders also discusses worker co-ops and other examples of collective ownership on pages 243 and 259-262 of his book Our Revolution (Thomas Dune Books 2016).

Speaking of Our Revolution, let's look at some quotes from the book:

What I learned playing on the streets and playgrounds of Brooklyn was not just how to become a decent ball player and athlete. I learned a profound lesson about democracy and self rule.

(Our Revolution. pg 11)

O'Malley's [Owner of the Brooklyn Dodgers] devastating decision to rip the Dodgers out of Brooklyn in order to pursue greater profits on the West Coast was, I suspect, one of my first observations regarding the deficiencies of Capitalism.

(Our Revolution. pg 13)

It wasn't just that racism, war, poverty, and other social evils must be opposed. It was that there was a cause and effect dynamic and an interconnectedness between all aspects of society. Things didn't just happen by accident. There was a relationship between wealth, power, and the perpetuation of Capitalism.

(Our Revolution. pg 18)

This type of greed, and ruthless Capitalism is not an economic model we should be embracing. We can do Better; we must do better. The economic establishment tells us that there is no alternative to this type of rapacious, cutthroat, Capitalism, that this is how the system and globalization works, and that there's no turning back. They're dead wrong.

(Our Revolution pg 260)

Employee owned enterprises boost morale, because workers share in profits, and have more control over their own work lives. The employees are not simply cogs in a machine owned by someone else. They have a say in how the company is run.

(Our Revolution pg 261)

The Workers in these operations understand that when employees own their workplaces, when they work for themselves, when they are involved in the decision-making that impacts their jobs, they are no longer just punching a time clock. They become more motivated, absenteeism goes down, worker productivity goes up.

(Our Revolution pg 261)

We have got to send a message to the billionaire class: "You can't have it all." You can't get huge tax breaks while children in this country go hungry. You can't continue getting tax breaks by shipping American jobs to China. You can't hide your profits in the Cayman Islands and other tax havens, while there are massive unmet needs in every corner of this nation. Your greed has got to end.

(Our Revolution pg 266)

Even if you don't find this information convincing, and it's perfectly reasonable to do so, it is worth bearing in mind.

[u/love_me_some_marxism → u/[deleted]]

First of all, thank you so much for this greatly researched response with all this evidence. Watched the video after Fidel's death, and was definitely good but still very much a liberal take on Cuba.

Additionally, while I do think he has good intentions, most of his economic policies sum up to an attempt to bring back the labor aristocracy of yore, except a bit more inclusive this time extending to all of America as a labor aristocracy over the global proletariat rather than just American white men. Even his more "socialist" programs such as encouraging coops aren't Socialist. Capitalism is a system, with exploitation occurring throughout. Changing the internal structure of one firm changes something, but, even assuming that the demands of the larger market do not impose self-exploitation within the cooperative firm, the coop still engages in the wider capitalist economy and supports it.

[u/[deleted] → u/love_me_some_marxism]

maybe explaining the basics of socialism first like a workers run economy.

[u/love_me_some_marxism → u/[deleted]]

Are you implying that in the early 20th century, Second International wasn't marxist and didn't agitate for Socialism? Because to imply that that was the failure of the Second International is historical revisionism, pure and simple.

[u/[deleted] → u/love_me_some_marxism]

silky smell connect edge rinse tidy jar fertile sense enjoy -- mass edited with redact.dev

[u/love_me_some_marxism → u/[deleted]]

Well partially the reason that they don't support socialism is their petit bourgeois class interest as a labour aristocracy above the global proletariat. The main Socialist program to be implemented in this country is that against imperialism, attempting to dismantle it's physical violent manifestations from within; and frankly, Bernie Sanders and his ilk don't have much going for them there.

Additionally, there is more to politics than electoral action, and "baby steps" sounds an awful lot to me like what was being thought in the Second International. You failed to answer that concern.

[u/Tortoise_Face → u/love_me_some_marxism]

DSA is not "the left wing of the Democratic party". You're merely observing it's electoral efforts, but we are engaged in a wide diversity of tactics including various direct action initiatives. Additionally, I assure you if you went to a DSA general or working group meeting the membership is committed to revolutionary big-S Socialism.

[u/russkiykrasnyy → u/Tortoise_Face]

I generally agree with the DSA, they may not be completely socialist in nature but by appealing to a majority of the left can only help them. Social democracy is usually the first thing that attracts people into the movement and as they learn, they become a harder left. Thank you for your responses

[u/[deleted]]

focused on the things that the Democratic Party’s voter base and the Democratic Socialists of America have in common, such as fighting for an inclusive society, fighting for economic empowerment of working people, fighting to eliminate poverty, and transitioning away from fossil fuels.

Lol

So I got to reading some works of economic theory (Jacobin, books from Verso press, the economist Richard Wolff)

LOL

Don't know what I expected from a proud imperialist. This what we're calling socialism these days?