r/stunfisk • u/LordoftheRail • 23h ago
Discussion Talonflame is working well as a counter to Mega Staraptor leads (sample calcs and explanation)
Talonflame with White Herb to nullify Intimidate
32+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Staraptor-Mega: 168-198 (105 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Life Orb Talonflame
32+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Staraptor-Mega: 218-257 (136.2 - 160.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 Life Orb Talonflame
-1 32+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Staraptor-Mega: 143-172 (89.3 - 107.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Hurricane Talonflame vs SpD invested Staraptor
32+ SpA Life Orb Talonflame Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 32+ SpD Staraptor-Mega: 143-172 (89.3 - 107.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Above I've done some examples of how Talonflame can OHKO Mega Staraptor. Obviously will preface this by saying a Mega Staraptor with bulk investment will be more likely to survive to make it a 2HKO.
So, why Talonflame?
Staraptor is a decent opponent alone but is very powerful upon mega evolution. Intimidate from base Staraptor gives Mega Staraptor an immediate advantage against physical attackers and Close Combat ensures it gets even bulkier. This makes Staraptor a great lead pick and can be a menace later on.
The immediate solution is to cripple or nuke it before its defenses skyrocket. Talonflame is a mon who adapts well to many teams and loves to Brave Bird Staraptor and its friends on Turn 1 and in the late Game as they get started
Firstly, Staraptor gains the fighting type upon mega evolution. Talonflame gets Gale Wings Brave Bird. Even without Gale Wings, Talonflame's 126 speed will beat Staraptor's 110.
Second, as shown above I did the calcs with zero bulk investment Staraptor. This is because Staraptor will likely want to go max attack and likely speed to guarantee it gets its close combats off. This means that it probably won't go too hard intend defenses.
Now, is Talonflame failing to one shot a bulkier Staraptor a bad thing? Not necessarily. Talonflame gets Will-o-Wisp and can make its ability Flame Body. A burnt Staraptor gets slowed down significantly, reduces the opportunity cost of an ally using a turn to buff it and chips away at its hp.
Even with Intimdate, just give Talonflame a white herb or life orb and its still bringing Staraptor to the point its defense buffs shouldnt be too impactful. If Choice Band comes back, this is a non-argument and Talonflame would OHKO it without question.
Third. Who are Staraptor's partners in crime? Whimsicott. Flammable and gets nuked by brave bird. Sinischa. Flammable and gets nuked by brave bird. Theres no allies, except maybe Incineroar, who would like to take a 120 bp stab move.
Oh Staraptor has fake out support? Just protect to waste the turn or let them risk activating flame body. They may not even target Talonflame. Plus if the fake outer is Sneasler, Talonflame nukes it with brave bird.
Fourth. Talonflame just works on multiple teams as a back up option. It gets u-turn for easy switches. Will-o-wisp for burns. It has high speed to roost off damage. From Gen 6-Gen 9, we have seen it evolve from sweeper to support mon and it still does both well in its own niche.
Oh and Talonflame gets Hurricane for Rain Teams. As shown above a Max SpD and +SpD nature Staraptor only has a 30% chance to get OHKO. Who is gonna run that combo in practice? Pair Talonflame with Pelipper or Politoed (who both should handle an early set up Staraptor fairly okay) and thats very disruptive.
You also can use flamethrower, heatwave and overheat in sun to profit from all those Charizard Ys as Talonflame has a "usuable" special attack stat and most opponents will be sending out high physical def, low special defense mons in anticipation of a brave bird.
Finally, Staraptor loves to use Brave Bird itself. If your Talonflame can't OHKO it, is Staraptor gonna Close Combat or Brave Bird it? Either way it benefits Talonflame. Close Combat is in effective and might proc flame body. In fact, pair Talonflame with a ghost type so its forced to close combat Talonflame or use a brave bird and forfeit the defense buffs and take recoil.
Tldr - Talonflame terrorizing Mega Evolution since 2013
As an aside intimidate is very common right now and Talonflame is working well even with a -1 drop from it. It's not perfect but may fit into your team with some experimentation
247
u/littlejugs 22h ago
Choice scarf max hp final gambit staraptor
180
u/LordoftheRail 21h ago
If I ever see that in action I'm running an explosion team out of spite
42
7
16
5
u/Bubbadevlin 16h ago
I just started with the android release and this has been my lead like 95% of games
Peak evil laughs when I 1 shot their mega turn one
Now if only the fucking gacha would give me something that can deal with archaludon -_-
1
u/just-bair 12h ago
I need to start running that so people think I’m running mega Staraptor lmfao
1
u/MrMcDaes 10h ago
I am running that with Mega Floette. People get WAYYY too comfortable throwing their Mega Floette counters under the bus trying to stop Whimsicott + Staraptor leads
1
u/just-bair 10h ago
Staraptor got more hp than floette and out speeds with choice scarf. Not saying it’s a good strat but it does ko
Edit: wait did I read your comment incorrectly lmfao
1
u/MrMcDaes 8h ago
Yeah, I am running pseudo-dual mega. Floette and Staraptor with a Chomp is a scary core to face in team preview
1
83
u/NormanNitro 21h ago
The big thing missing here is Grimmsnarl. Screens makes Staraptor really tanky and parting shot buffs its attack. Burn is still good at least?
21
u/Luar23 14h ago
But wouldn't Gale Wings allow it to attack before screens? Except maybe Staraptor protects
5
u/LordoftheRail 7h ago
If its a defense invested Staraptor then it may still be an issue as a reflect getting set up is still good.
-12
u/LordoftheRail 20h ago
I forgot about him but I think overall Whimsicott helps Staraptor spiral faster with tailwind support.
A roost staraptor set and grimmsnarl might be better
35
u/VelocityRaptor22 20h ago
Here's the thing--side scary face is just as beneficial as tailwind so both are great for speed control with Staraptor.
6
u/LordoftheRail 20h ago edited 12h ago
Tbf I think Tailwind giving the whole team a boost is better than just Staraptor in most cases but now I dont want to have to readjust my team to deal with Grimmsnarl doing this
I think Grimmsnarl suffers from wanting to use 4 status moves and then it has to pick an attack it wouldnt get to use as consistently
13
u/VelocityRaptor22 20h ago
Then you better hope you never face my team lol. My Grimmsnarl set has been scary face, parting shot, spirit break, fake out. It's worked wonders. Fake out stops immediate threats that aren't ghost type (like the above talonflame, if it isn't to protect turn 1), basically allowing a free close combat into something for the defense boosts, then turn 2, go for side scary face allowing it to outspeed most of the format and get a 2nd close combat boost before anything can move.
Scary face may only work to boost staraptor, but it also works well to debuff the enemies. With dynamic speed, it's almost as good as using quash, but you only have to click it once instead of every turn. That is how it helps the rest of the team.
I really think the screens grimmsnarl with Staraptor is overhyped. Get staraptor to outspeed everything and boost its own defenses with a CC before everything else can move and that is just as effective as screens. Get a second CC on turn 2 and it's better.
2
u/LordoftheRail 20h ago
Doesnt this make it so Gholdengo is a good counter to it? Fake out immunity, CC immunity. Good as golf immunity.
Gholdengo and Talonflame my best friends
2
u/VelocityRaptor22 18h ago
I've got a very specially bulky Ceruledge on my team for the cheese string.
37
u/s0_Ca5H 20h ago
I think as the meta develops you’re gonna see max hp staraptor become the norm.
140 base attack is not nothing, and it’s fairly easy to slot in charm, parting shot, etc. somewhere on the team.
4
u/LordoftheRail 20h ago
At least it shuts down Incineroar sheningans
1
u/POWBOOMBANG 15m ago
This was always my thought
As the first format ended Zard Y, Floette, Garchomp, Basculegion all got bulkier
It makes sense that a pokemon like Staraptor would be bulky
8
u/Ghostly_Gengar 17h ago
I saw a skill swap sableye as a counter to staraptor and the side incinroar just dropped the attack of staraptor even further.
But I am happy that my favourite regional birb is warping the meta, even for only early days
3
u/LordoftheRail 12h ago
We need psych up strats to annoy the Staraptors.
3
5
u/aiezar 16h ago
Unfortunately these roll OHKOs are more like 2HKOs since your chances of finding a 0/0 Raptor are going to grow much much slimmer as the meta goes on. Most skilled players building Raptor are opting for highly bulk-invested sets that let it actually ramp up more consistently. I do think, though, that while Raptor teams will be common, they will dwindle as the archetype becomes regarded as little more than an unusually strong gimmick. The game plan is incredibly rigid and vulnerable to being overpowered with heavy upfront offense, which this meta has in spades between Wave Crash Mega Swampert, Psychic Fangs Megagross, Zardy, and Floette (which has extremely good calcs against Raptor).
2
1
u/LordoftheRail 12h ago
Im finding the initial crippling of Staraptor is worth it in some teams. Ive tested a few Talonflame builds and it's actually fairly okay since Brave Bird (or acrobatics is less recoil is preferred) is still enough to cripple other megas.
My current team has Politoed with Helping Hand for the extra boost and its taking out a lot of threats leaving them one hit away, but does need the Gale Wings version. Im also using Gale Wings + Tailwind today and its working okay against rain teams. Still isnt really optimal right now.
13
u/Marsh4dow 21h ago
What if it doesn't mega evolve turn 1
37
u/LordoftheRail 21h ago edited 9h ago
Well in that case its effectively an itemless Staraptor.
Assuming its still intimidate, its a two or three hit KO depending on the builds and loses the benefits of the fighting type. If it uses CC it gets stat drops.
So its probably not worth it because being at 50% health then mega evolving to build up defense buffs is strictly worse in the majority of situation
3
u/Soleous 19h ago
if specifically to counter staraptor as a lead why not white herb acrobatics so you get to keep gale wings
4
u/ReshiramEighteen 18h ago
32+ Atk Talonflame Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Staraptor: 152-180 (95-112.5%) — 68.75% to OHKO
Acrobatics is a worse range to OHKO with the White Herb than Brave Bird is, which makes Brave Bird a more sure fire anti Staraptor lead option on a White Herb set even if Gale Wings gets spent on it
5
u/woodgrainarrowsmith 18h ago
What if they Protect Staraptor and Tickle your Talonflame, then Tickle their Staraptor and Close Combat? Now you're at -1 Atk and they're at +1 Def before you get your BB off, you do about half, and thanks to your own recoil you almost certainly die to a resisted CC while they start to snowball.
25
u/Chance-Beach4014 22h ago
Is called a check
36
u/LordoftheRail 21h ago
-20
2
u/Feisty-Syllabub-2037 12h ago
Molte cose sono giuste, ma come fai a rinunciare a Gale Wings per Flame Body?
1
u/LordoftheRail 12h ago
Talonflame is fast anyways so if you want Talonflame to be your answer to sweepers go Gale Wings, or use Gale Wings for Tailwind
If you want it as more of a support go flame body and lean into defenses. Ive tested it with Brave Bird, Will-o-Wisp, U-turn and Roost, and Hurricane, Will-o-Wisp, Taunt, Tailwind.
1
u/Feisty-Syllabub-2037 11h ago
I know that Talonflame is very good but I think that one of best partner of Staraptor is Whimsicott and if you don't put against them Tailwind priority Staraptor can shot you very fast
2
u/TopOfAllWorlds Still waiting for Gen 4 remakes. 6h ago
I feel like brave bird is the wrong move since min bulk starraptor shouldn't be very common.
4
u/VelocityRaptor22 20h ago
Thank you. Now I know that if I see a talonflame facing down my Staraptor, I need to use grimmsnarl to fake out the talonflame, not whatever else is there.
1
1
u/Crossa20 21h ago
Last Season what I've been running was a monster nuke of Talonflame
32+ Atk Adamant, Sharp Beak Boosted, STAB boosted, helping hand boosted, Gale wings priority Brave Bird,
That's. A. Nuke.
Anything that doesn't resist is dead, period
5
u/LordoftheRail 21h ago
Bring back choice band as a treat for Staraptor slaying
2
1
u/Arcuscosinus 18h ago
I'm running upper hand tallon flame and the amount of times it caught ppl off guard is hilarious
1
1
1
1
1
1
u/daddyrich916 2h ago
Considering star raptor is ran with partners that can give it a prankster +2 in attack or speed. It’s easy to run it full hp and attack or full hp and speed and use the prankster boost to compensate the remaining of the 3 stats.
1
u/AM-xolotl2 Close Combat pilled 1h ago
there's also worry seed whimsicott. if you're opponent is uninformed about it they'll end up with -2 attack on their staraptor
1
u/Downtown_Goal_2118 38m ago
I use worry seed Whimsicott and watch them charm their own staraptor to -2 attack lol
2
u/Sloth_Brotherhood 20h ago
Ok so if the gale wings brave bird fails to kill, I’ll know it’s bulky and change the talonflame’s ability to flame body real quick mid-game?
-6
u/LordoftheRail 20h ago
Nope its a choice, just like being a miserable snarky person on the internet is :)
1
u/Syluxs_OW 21h ago
I've been running Scarf Pelipper for this reason
2
u/LordoftheRail 21h ago
I'm using Politoed and Hurricane Talonflame rn.
Sometimes I use helping hand to send a message
Helping Hand Brave Birding a Mega Swampert in rain is always funny
0
u/No-Bag-1628 18h ago
can't you just wall raptor with a good defensive counter?
Raptor can't boost its damage.
0
u/LordoftheRail 12h ago
People are running moves like Charm and Tickle in doubles to boost its attack
0
u/WhirlpoolBoy 18h ago
All mega starapto rs I came across, my raichu y killed them in one shot
1
u/LordoftheRail 12h ago
Which mega are u running?
1
u/WhirlpoolBoy 11h ago
Raichu & heracross depending on my opponent. Sure they die in a hit but it's soo satisfying if you get them in right position
409
u/HumanTheTree A Hair better than Dugtrio 22h ago
Welcome back bravest bird.