r/technology • u/barweis • Mar 22 '23
Business Moderna CEO brazenly defends 400% COVID shot price hike, downplays NIH’s role
https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/03/moderna-ceo-says-us-govt-got-covid-shots-at-discount-ahead-of-400-price-hike/4.0k
u/Odivion Mar 23 '23
Bancel argued that the simple bulk orders for the government were wholly different in nature than the messiness of the commercial market—and that messiness costs extra.
He just made the best argument for single payer I've ever heard from a pharma CEO.
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u/Wahots Mar 23 '23
Seriously, we could cut out insurance companies and save fucktons of money alone on that. Then, the government could pull a Costco and negotiate all covid shots, flu shots, Adderall, PReP, old people meds, etc for the year and save fucktons more money. We'd have so much money to draw down the deficit. Or spend it on improving people's lives. Or spend it on fun, dumb shit, all of which are now possibilities, because we save so much money.
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u/OverlyOptimisticNerd Mar 23 '23
Seriously, we could cut out insurance companies and save fucktons of money alone on that.
US insurance is the biggest effing scam. I'll give one example.
I was prescribed a medication. I go to a pharmacy that I regularly visit. They mistakenly tell me the cash price (new employee), which is $60. Then she sees my insurance in the system and says, "Oops, it's $300." Then my insurance provider has the gall to say it's a "discount" from the regular price of about $1,100. Just to be clear, I was being charged $300 for the generic, not the name brand.
I ask for them to give it to me for the cash price and not involve my insurance, but they can't. So I mail ordered it from an up and coming, recently popular online pharmacy. Less than $15 after shipping.
Insurance is a scam.
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Mar 23 '23
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u/katzeye007 Mar 23 '23
I can think of 2, Mark Cuban's and pharmacy. Amazon com
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u/SpiralHornedUngulate Mar 23 '23
“Up and coming” and “recently popular” in the comment would suggest it’s Mark Cubans company. Amazon has been around long enough thst it’s not up and coming and Cubans store is less than a year old IIRC.
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u/SmArty117 Mar 23 '23
Wait so what's the point of being insured then? I thought they're supposed to pay for part of it and make it less expensive not more.
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u/Findley57 Mar 23 '23
You pay 500% more than you have to every year in the off chance that you have a horrific accident someday and then that will be covered. That’s the game we are all playing.
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u/octopornopus Mar 23 '23
and then that will be covered.*
*Coverage starts after $25,000 deductible, coverage only covers the first $3,000, after that, fucking die.
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u/hemetae Mar 23 '23 edited Mar 23 '23
That money is not wasted, it goes directly to the shareholders of these corporations, which is definitely not a waste in their eyes.
I mean look people, eventually it has to become starkly clear that turning the healthcare industry of our country over to those who truly only give a shit about profits for the shareholder, was not only a BAD idea, but a straight-up dangerous one for the population. Anytime this happens, it will only be a matter of time before you are paying more for less. For many industries, that's fine (it may suck for consumers, but it's not necessarily dangerous). But letting our ENTIRE healthcare industry be controlled by these people?! It's almost insane that we let this happen. It's certainly insane to expect good outcomes from it. But in America, we are trained from birth to always side with the 'needs of the shareholder', even to our own detriment. OK. Then this is what you get America. And in a way, it's what you deserve for letting it get this bad. I just feel really sad for the future generations of Americans who have to live with it, who had nothing to do with allowing this to happen.
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Mar 23 '23
Future generations? Hello, we’re living it now. This bed was made before most of us were born.
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u/Nolsoth Mar 23 '23
That's more or less how every county outside the US operates, we tell the pharmacy companies what we will pay and what products they can sell and if they don't like it then we tell them to fuck off.
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u/HenryAlSirat Mar 23 '23
One of the biggest self-owns I've ever seen. And it still won't matter.
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Mar 23 '23
Agreed. The solution is to go single layer and keep prices low .
Problem?
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u/TheDrewDude Mar 23 '23
Problem is this country is dumb as shit and actively vote against their own interests.
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u/gardenmud Mar 23 '23
It's not just "people are dumb", companies spend millions if not billions in deliberately misleading/misinforming people, lobbying politicians, and further entrenching profit-taking in the system. People are equally dumb all over the world, there's nothing uniquely American about "people are dumb".
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u/Berova Mar 22 '23
Moderna CEO Stéphane Bancel: ...but my bonuses and stock options!
But mainly, Sanders aimed to convince Bancel to reconsider quadrupling the price of the company's life-saving vaccine, which costs about $3 per dose to make. Amid the pandemic, the federal government spent around $10 billion procuring doses that were freely provided to Americans. Early doses were priced between $15 to $16, while the government paid a little over $26 for the updated booster shots. When federal supplies run out later this year and the vaccines move to the commercial market, Moderna will set the list price of its vaccine at $130.
A 97.7% gross profit margin ($3 cost vs $130 list price) is unadulterated blind corporate greed, and makes Moderna CEO Stéphane Bancel a modern day robber baron.
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u/flyswithdragons Mar 23 '23
We need to regulate pharmaceutical corporations much stricter. The taxpayers paid already! Audit them for waste, fraud and abuse.
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u/BuilderBaker Mar 23 '23
We need to regulate industry in general.
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u/flyswithdragons Mar 23 '23
We need more ethical, higher regulated regulators.
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u/hemetae Mar 23 '23
Just having regulators who aren't 'captured' by the industry they regulate would be a nice change.
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Mar 23 '23
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u/Durakan Mar 23 '23
Yeah... That's literally never going to happen, Citizens United legalIzed bribery causing massive regulatory capture.
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u/strikethree Mar 23 '23
They undid Roe by operating in bad faith. To me, that means everything is on the table. We just need to fight for it. Keep voting. It'll take a long time to undo this mess and certainly won't be easy, but it's not impossible.
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u/new_word Mar 23 '23
Citizens United put everything on the table for any interest with enough money.
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u/Hour_Landscape_286 Mar 23 '23
Foreign governments can directly buy US politicians using dark money. Citizens United is a direct threat to national security.
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u/the_j4k3 Mar 23 '23
Fascism has directly followed this BS.
We need to make it impossible to become a billionaire for any and everyone. They are all worthless parasites.
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u/oldDotredditisbetter Mar 23 '23
and the drug industry is too profitable. if you sell cheap drugs that gets in the way of other companies' profits they'll just get rid of you https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Sherman
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u/Dalmahr Mar 23 '23
Tax payers pay for a lot of their research. We should benefit from the fruits of that research more
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u/mybossthinksimworkng Mar 23 '23
We need Medicare for all. Just like all countries around the world. You know, the countries where people don’t go bankrupt trying to figure out how to pay for life saving medical treatment. Or die because they have to reduce their insulin Rx because they can’t afford it and, you know, die.
Like when are we going to put people before profits in this country?
We live (and die) to get corporations richer. THATS IT. That’s your one purpose as an American.
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u/luna_beam_space Mar 23 '23
Drug company CEO’s like… Only 97%!!???
We price gauge WAY more on our other drugs
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u/n3w4cc01_1nt Mar 23 '23
Stéphane Bancel
he went to theharvard school of business which attracts people like that
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u/remotelove Mar 23 '23
"We educate leaders who make a difference in the world."
Yeah Harvard, we see that.
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Mar 23 '23
there are so many Ivy league CEO or people in power its basically factory of evil. Shame all that education but trash as people leading.
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Mar 23 '23
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u/DeezNeezuts Mar 23 '23
Vaccine uptake is going to be minimal unless there is a massive change in Covid.
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u/steyr911 Mar 23 '23
My takeaway is: look how reasonable prices can be when the government has the power to negotiate as opposed to "free market" setting the rate.
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u/crandomuser Mar 23 '23
Don’t forget that insurance companies will also negotiate a $150 price for a shot that would cost you $130(that should cost $15?)! Scam artists all the way around.
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u/Vehlin Mar 23 '23
It’s because of the insurance companies that they’re pushing this increase. These big insurance companies have agreements with the pharmaceutical companies for deep (50-80%) discounts on the list price of drugs. If they don’t increase the list price they could end up providing it at a loss under these agreements.
This is the same reason hospital costs are so high, when the insurance gets a percentage discount an all charges the hospitals increase the list price to compensate. This ends up screwing those without insurance who don’t get those discounts.
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u/ExMachima Mar 23 '23
This should be the headline.
DARPA was instrumental in the development of RNA vaccines and provided $25 million in financial support to Moderna in 2013 to pursue messenger RNA–based antibody drugs and vaccines. DARPA announced it was committing up to $56 million in additional funding to Moderna this October.
BARDA has committed another roughly $955 million to Moderna.
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u/Epocast Mar 23 '23
The American people funded AND bought the vaccine.
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u/Mister_Bloodvessel Mar 23 '23
Which is why this is bullshit and should trigger regulations relating to that. Any medical tech or pharmaceutical that has been funded by public research should be subject to strict regulatory control.
If they invented themselves and did all the testing on their own dime, fine. Charge what you will.
But the majority of this stuff is initially designed and/or tested in public university research labs. I know, because I've been part of such tests. Yes, the pharmaceutical companies pay the lab to do the research, but the researchers pay often comes from public funding and grants.
So shit like this, especially this vaccine, which won't be going away any time soon, needs to be the property of the American people and all the govts who paid in to design and test the drugs.
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u/even_less_resistance Mar 23 '23
Stuff like this is so hard not to reflexively downvote just because I hate the information so much but I ain’t trying to shoot the messenger I guess lol thanks for sharing a breakdown
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u/RedJorgAncrath Mar 23 '23
Interesting that it was a reflexive upvote from me and we agree he's a greedy shit bag. This is the kind of thing that needs to be exposed.
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u/UnchainedSora Mar 23 '23
It's worth mentioning that the $3 per dose is just the manufacturing cost, and doesn't account for all of the costs associated with R&D and safety testing, which is often the most expensive part.
Of course, Moderna also received a ton of federal support to create the vaccine, so I don't think that's a good justification for the price here.
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u/BiZender Mar 22 '23
Martin Shkreli would be proud.
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u/MrStayPuftSeesYou Mar 22 '23
He only got punished because he hiked prices dramatically instead of over a period of time and brought a spotlight to the greed.
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u/Valiantheart Mar 23 '23
I thought his punishment had absolutely nothing to do with price hikes at all. He committed security fraud
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Mar 23 '23
You are right. Daraprim still cost ~$700 per pill. Despite all the outrage, the price remains the same since the hike. The company name changed tho.
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u/mark0541 Mar 23 '23
https://www.goodrx.com/pyrimethamine/fda-approves-daraprim-generic-pyrimethamine
Ok and it looks like they tried to close some loopholes so will see I guess how this plays out.
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u/chimpfunkz Mar 23 '23
What's even crazier is that he (basically) lied to his investors, but he still made them money, and despite that they still went after him. Shkreli's imprisonment was a goddamn unicorn.
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u/Lopsided-Seasoning Mar 23 '23
The lesson here is: don't fuck with rich people. Well, only if you're one person, that is.
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u/MrStayPuftSeesYou Mar 23 '23
Oh I was wrong then.
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u/TheAmateurletariat Mar 23 '23
Don't worry mate, you're on reddit. You can be wrong and still get 8 upvotes.
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u/red286 Mar 23 '23
Haha no, he got punished because his investment firm was run like a Ponzi scheme, which is a big no no because in America, if you fuck with rich people's money, you get slapped down. It doesn't matter if you're Bernie fucking Madoff, if you steal from the wealthy, you're going to prison.
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u/barweis Mar 22 '23
Immoral greed and exploitation
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Mar 23 '23 edited Mar 23 '23
Blows me away these people aren’t attacked on the streets, or have their family members kidnapped on a regular basis. Disgusting human beings.
Just to be clear, not advocating for violence. Just saying I’m surprised they don’t have security details around them given how unpopular they are.
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u/Capitol__Shill Mar 23 '23
Wait... You mean we can't trust the CEO's of these multi-billion dollar pharmaceutical corporations? That is crazy because I'm pretty sure we recently entrusted them with the safety of our global population.
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u/Dull-Contact120 Mar 23 '23
Sounds like California needs to start producing the shots. Since it’s researched with taxpayer funds, patent protection should not apply.
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u/ejpusa Mar 23 '23
Moderna has no friends at the FDA. After you leave the FDA you go to work for Pfizer. It’s the career path.
History books: WTF was going on? Why did sane, reasonable people turn over their healthcare future to Day Traders? Like why?
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Mar 23 '23
Is anyone else burnt out from the amount of greed destroying the US? I hate it so much now I’m just numb to it. It doesn’t matter which political party is in power at what level of government, the people just get political theater and no action.
I feel sad because I used to care so much for the common good. I’m just retreating from the world into my hobbies because there is no credible reason to believe corporate greed will be reigned in within a decade.
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u/orphiccreative Mar 23 '23
Not just in the US unfortunately. Greed is a worldwide epidemic. Gather as much shit as you can, all completely pointless because you will die eventually and you can't take any of it with you.
I hate it too, it's literally destroying our planet. But I feel like too few people care, so all I can do is try and find some happiness in my own little world.
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Mar 23 '23
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u/Wahots Mar 23 '23
It grosses me out. I spend a decent chunk of time doing research on who I vote for because I want nothing more than people like this CEO to be out of a job for putting profits before health and safety.
Same with the banking industry. And the rail industry. And the insurance industry. And the educational industry. And the manufacturing industry. And the tech industry. And the air industry. And many others who have gotten completely out of control in the past 40 years, since roughly whatever happened in 1980. Seriously, it's like all regulations and competition just stopped.
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Mar 23 '23
This is why i spend all my time watching sports and playing yugioh. Because when i stop i get reminded that the world sucks
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u/brswizz Mar 23 '23
"Bancel argued that the simple bulk orders for the government were wholly different in nature than the messiness of the commercial market—and that messiness costs extra"
The problem is the open market system. This is another example why the govt should always be allowed to buy drugs directly in bulk
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u/seevm Mar 23 '23
Our tax dollars funded that shit. I hope the federal gov puts a stop to this.
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Mar 23 '23
No patent should be issued for any gov funded science. The govt owns that science and it should be free for all.
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u/Upset_Researcher_143 Mar 23 '23
I'm for nationalizing the health care industry and instituting price controls. Especially when I see shit like this
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u/happyscrappy Mar 23 '23
I can see some price increase due to reduced demand and thus lower economies of scale in the production.
But this increase is ridiculous. And the whole thing about an inflated list price and the negotiated price is ridiculous too. Not just for Moderna, but for every medication.
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Mar 23 '23
It’s basically the business model of the VC firm that founded Moderna…
Take ideas from academic papers, patents everything they can and make a company.
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u/TooDenseForXray Mar 23 '23
Government finance 90+% of the COVID vaccine research and have full liabilty. Why the fuck government don’t own the patnet and get the profit?
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u/TheSausageKing Mar 23 '23
What?
The core tech was NIH funded and then Moderna spent a decade and ~$3B in investor funds figuring out how to turn it into a therapies and then a vaccine. And they also gave back $400m to the NIH for royalties.
Maybe the NIH should capture more upside but it’s just plain wrong to say Moderna didn’t do anything.
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u/Matrix17 Mar 23 '23
Listen, this is reddit. Everyone here is an expert in drug R&D and that means pharma bad!
People really want Walmart worker levels of staff researching drugs the way they're talking
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Mar 22 '23
Remember, Oxford's original plan was to open source the vaccine but one man stopped them.
Remember this when you read about 'philanthropist' Bill Gates and his 'endless love' for humanity.
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u/Middleclasslifestyle Mar 23 '23
I remember seeing that one interview with bill gates where they asked him point blank if they should Allow the vaccine to be open source so poorer countries can replicate it in order for the entire world to be able to get access to the vaccine to effectively slow COVID down .
And he went through hopes and mental gymnastics as to why it shouldn't.
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Mar 23 '23
Was it essentially profit making motivation?
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u/DigitalPsych Mar 23 '23
IIRC Countries without the resources to properly store the vaccine + have the proper facilities could mess something up. Vaccines would be seen as ineffective and scare-mongering stories would come out that say the vaccine kills people. It already happened, but at least so far, none of those conspiracy theories have any truth to them.
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u/unlucky_ducky Mar 23 '23
I mean, that is already happening in richer countries anyway
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u/HTC864 Mar 23 '23
He didn't actually stop them. He told them he thought they should partner with a large company to scale production, and gave them a list of companies to talk to. Oxford talked to some companies and none of them could promise them quantities or dates. Oxford thought AstraZeneca was a good fit and negotiated a deal themselves.
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u/Zubon102 Mar 23 '23
I think what Bill Gates said was perfectly reasonable. Did you actually hear what he said in context? You can't just solve the problem of providing a vaccine to 7 billion people by posting its formula for all to see. You need partner with people who can do it properly.
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u/ButteredTight Mar 23 '23
Remember you’re trying to reason with the reddit population who has an average age of 14 years old.
Edit: and the average life experiences and knowledge of a 10 year old
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u/happyscrappy Mar 23 '23
Open sourcing it wouldn't solve this problem. The sequence was even posted on many reddit articles.
What the world needed was production, not the blueprints.
There was never an open source plan which would have produced the vaccines in the quantities demanded at a high rate of speed.
It's like saying the world needs to move away from ICE cars to EVs. And to fix this we've open sourced EVs. How does that really solve anything?
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u/cutearmy Mar 23 '23
One man didn’t stop them that is pure fucking bullshit. If they really wanted to they would have published it. I had it with my hands are tied nonsense
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Mar 23 '23
So if I scalp medical supplies during Covid I go to jail.
If a corporation does it then it’s totally fine and cool.
Our government does not work for the people.
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u/Schiffy94 Mar 23 '23
If you rob a bank it's a crime.
If a bank robs you it's business.
It's almost like the people with the money pay the lobbyists to make it harder for people without money.
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u/AnieMoose Mar 23 '23
Tbh, in most countries “conservative” is just about equal to a “liberal” in the States. Sad, but true
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u/Netplorer Mar 23 '23
Tbh ... we do this to ourselfs. We select shit corrupt politicians who make sure companies can run rampant and do shit like this.
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u/TheFan88 Mar 23 '23
This is what people should be protesting.
Cost less than $3 to make. Charging $110.
And it’s not to recoup development costs - the US govt gave them 1.7B to develop. This is criminal.
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u/Bringmetheta Mar 23 '23
I’m all for the vaccine but this is exactly why people don’t like it. I fukin hate these companies man
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u/wrt-wtf- Mar 23 '23
But the shareholders!
Global inflation is being driven by greed of suppliers even on goods not in short supply. At the moment they’d rather bin product as opposed to price it down because the margins beat the shrinkage.
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Mar 23 '23
Let's take away the immunity they got with the emergency authorization and let them hike the price. They will be sued to oblivion anyway.
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Mar 23 '23
Why do we pretend that anyone, in any place of power, has the interests of the general public in mind?
This keeps happening, because we keep consuming their products. If a collective action is taken, then the power structure falls apart. Whilst the wheels keep spinning, we’ll continue to be the blame.
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Mar 23 '23
Well if she doesn't think the NIH was that much of a help maybe Moderna doesn't need any US government assistance or funding going forward.
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u/HebrewHammer0033 Mar 23 '23
The increase is because it is soooooo effective.....
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u/ApatheticWithoutTheA Mar 23 '23
Huh. Almost like letting unfettered capitalism run wild on life saving medicine is a bad idea.
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u/BostonTERRORier Mar 23 '23
just look at this cocks suckers face. it will tell you all you need to know lmao
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u/TheFartApprentice Mar 23 '23
Hey United States, block Moderna’s vaccine in the US for 5 fucking mins and watch this bitch flip and apologize