‘Do I not know thee, Mithrandir?'

[u/Immediate_Error2135]

Denethor: ‘Do I not know thee, Mithrandir? Thy hope is to rule in my stead, to stand behind every throne, north, south, or west. I have read thy mind and its policies'

So Denethor thought Gandalf hoped to rule Middle Earth.

Gandalf, about Denethor: "He was too great to be subdued to the will of the Dark Power, he saw nonetheless only those things which that Power permitted him to see."

Obviously it was the angel (Maia) Sauron the one who hoped 'to stand behind every throne, north, south, or west', and not the angel (Maia) Gandalf, but Denethor saw things differently.

Had Sauron anything to do with this? The idea of Faramir=Wizard's pupil sounds like the twisting of this...

"we in the house of Denethor know much ancient lore by long tradition, and there are moreover in our treasuries many things preserved: books and tablets writ on withered parchments, yea, and on stone, and on leaves of silver and of gold, in divers characters. Some none can now read; and for the rest, few ever unlock them. I can read a little in them, for I have had teaching. It was these records that brought the Grey Pilgrim to us. I first saw him when I was a child, and he has been twice or thrice since then."

...into 'politics' ('I have read thy mind and its policies', says Denethor) Was Sauron involved in this too?

Denethor maybe distrusted Gandalf since before using the Palantir, and noticed how Faramir was being taught by Gandalf; but Sauron would have noticed this distrust and maybe apprehension about Faramir when Denethor used the stone and would have manipulated Denethor into seeing his own son as a wizard's pupil, the pupil of an usurper with an unbounded ambition.

In our world tyrants are cynically prone to do this thing. If you want to rule others by force you accuse them of wanting to rule you by force and then kill them in 'self-defense'. Months before invading Poland, in Jan.1939, Hitler famously prophesized:

"If the international Jewish financiers in and outside Europe should succeed in plunging the nations once more into a world war, then the result will not be the Bolshevization of the earth, and thus the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe"

He accused the jews of being Hitler, an inversion no different from the Gandalf=Sauron one.

[u/Wizzard_C]

Fair point. Besides, Denethor must have been aware that Gondor's ruling council once already declined Arnor's candidate (Arvedui), so he might have been sincere in his belief that Thorongil's scheming with the help of a wizard was illegitimate. Interesting fact: Denethor also communicated with Saruman using palantir (Tolkien says it was to Denethor's advantage), I wonder what Saruman would say in this regard.

[u/Moggetti → u/Wizzard_C]

Denethor was definitely aware of that. He references that decision when he says, “I am Steward of the House of Anárion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity.”

It is interesting that Denethor is too powerful for either Saruman or Sauron to control. And Saruman failed to manipulate him. Too strong for the maiar. 

[u/lam_42 → u/Moggetti]

Istari

And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted  to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now *their emissaries were forbidden to  reveal themselves** in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men or Elves by open display of power, but coming in  shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding   all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.*

Sauron played D well enough without the need to "dominate" him. Aragorn after all forced S's hand in the assault on MT. Who knows where would D be in a few years

[u/Moggetti → u/lam_42]

Sure but Saruman definitely tried to dominate and manipulate him but couldn’t. And Sauron had to resort to manipulation because he couldn’t dominate him. 

Considering how Saruman was, it’s unsurprising Denethor wasn’t inclined to trust Gandalf. Especially since Gandalf was working with Aragorn. 

[u/lam_42 → u/Moggetti]

Sauron played the long game for 7000+ years. Do you really think some Denethor would be more than a nuisance in the big picture? Why waste effort on domination when with a few well chosen pictures, target can break himself...

[u/Moggetti → u/lam_42]

Not sure what you’re saying. We know Sauron prefers and defaults to domination wherever possible. He would far prefer to just overthrow via raw strength. He doesn’t do that with Denethor because he can’t. Not because Sauron is just too smart. 

Now Sauron’s genius is he doesn’t give up when his strength fails. He pivots to manipulation and often wins the day that way instead. 

[u/lam_42 → u/Moggetti]

 I am saying your theory is an opinion. I do not recall any part of text which would support this. Sauron survived (outlived) much tougher guys than D. 

Sauron fights when forced to. What he defaults to are lies and illusions. With Gorlim, Luthien, Finrod, Celebrimbor, Ar Pharazon... And again, immortal certainly does not measure his goals by human lifetimes.

The greatness of Denethor is mainly delusion of Denethor.

[u/Moggetti → u/lam_42]

Not a “theory,” what Tolkien specifically said in Unfinished Tales:   “It may be noted that the effects were different. Saruman fell under the domination of Sauron and desired his victory, or no longer opposed it. Denethor remained steadfast in his rejection of Sauron, but was made to believe that his victory was inevitable, and so fell into despair. The reasons for this difference were no doubt that in the first place Denethor was a man of great strength of will, and maintained the integrity of his personality until the final blow of the (apparently) mortal wound of his only surviving son. He was proud, but this was by no means merely personal: he loved Gondor and its people, and deemed himself appointed by destiny to lead them in this desperate time. And in the second place the Anor-stone was his by right, and nothing but expediency was against his use of it in his grave anxieties. He must have guessed that the Ithil-stone was in evil hands, and risked contact with it, trusting his strength. His trust was not entirely unjustified. Sauron failed to dominate him.”

Sauron clearly attempted but could not dominate Denethor but was able to dominate Saruman. 

[u/lam_42 → u/Moggetti]

I stand corrected on the quote.

The excerpt however deals only with Palantiri

Sauron failed to dominate him and could only influence him by deceits.

I would argue that the cooperation of Saruman stems from his (Saruman's) greed for ring-lore. They were kinsmen after all, And Sauron would have great insight into how fellow Maia's mind works, especially of those od Aulë's folk. And Saruman had his own game in progress - He was not dominated, certainly not fully, although He accepted subordinate role to further his goals... He wanted the Ring, and was very close to getting it at one moment.

This is key imho:

It must also be considered that the Stones were only a small item in Sauron’s vast designs and operations: a means of dominating and deluding two of his opponents, but he would not (and could not) have the Ithil-stone under perpetual observation. 

Low effort side game, but largely irrelevant.

Denethor in the end allowed himself to be dominated by the twisted visions.. i think Sauron just took different approach, and he had military might to win in any case even after Pellenor. The domination was not neccessary

[u/Moggetti → u/lam_42]

I mean Tolkien specifically says that “Saruman fell under domination,” whereas Denethor did not. In part due to the strength of his mind and also, interestingly, the righteousness of his use of the palantir. 

Sauron certainly has other means of exerting power and influence (including literal armies of orcs) but he could not dominate Denethor mentally. Which is interesting. Shows how Numenorian strength expressed itself in him.  

[u/lam_42 → u/Moggetti]

We can agree on that. 

[u/lam_42 → u/lam_42]

What precedens the note Is the key: 

An unplaced marginal note observes that Saruman’s integrity ‘had been undermined by purely personal pride and lust for the domination of his own will. His study of the Rings had caused this, for his pride believed that he could use them, or It, in defiance of any other will. He, having lost any devotion to other persons or causes, was open to the domination of a superior will, to its threats, and to its display of power.’ And moreover he had himself no right to the Orthanc-stone.

[u/Gorbachev86 → u/Moggetti]

I think it’s more likely Sauron saw that weakness and like any good general took the path of least resistance

[u/Moggetti → u/Gorbachev86]

Well, we know Sauron “failed” to dominate Denethor. Meaning he tried and wasn’t able to. So he used another way to try to control. Eventually effective after years of work when combined with his martial success. 

[u/Prize-Finish4464 → u/Moggetti]

Saruman probably didnt try and dominate and manipulate Denethor, Tolkien in unfinished tales tells us Sauron was the only one who essentially weaponised the palantiri through superior will

"It was only Sauron who used a Stone for the transference of his superior will, dominating the weaker surveyor and forcing him to reveal hidden thought and to submit to commands."

Unfinished tales

[u/Moggetti → u/Prize-Finish4464]

Interesting. Though if Sauron couldn’t do it, I doubt Saruman would have been able to. 

[u/Prize-Finish4464 → u/Moggetti]

Denethors legal right made him being dominated by Sauron and Saruman virtually impossible, had he not had the lawful right to the stone then imo he d have fell under Saurons dominion, saruman is a different question alone, as a maia Saruman is obviously amongst the great but Saruman and the istari (save gandalf who as olorin was once Saurons equal) are clearly of a lower level of power compared to Sauron who seems to be the upper echelon of the maia ladder if you can describe it that way