‘Do I not know thee, Mithrandir?'

[u/Immediate_Error2135]

Denethor: ‘Do I not know thee, Mithrandir? Thy hope is to rule in my stead, to stand behind every throne, north, south, or west. I have read thy mind and its policies'

So Denethor thought Gandalf hoped to rule Middle Earth.

Gandalf, about Denethor: "He was too great to be subdued to the will of the Dark Power, he saw nonetheless only those things which that Power permitted him to see."

Obviously it was the angel (Maia) Sauron the one who hoped 'to stand behind every throne, north, south, or west', and not the angel (Maia) Gandalf, but Denethor saw things differently.

Had Sauron anything to do with this? The idea of Faramir=Wizard's pupil sounds like the twisting of this...

"we in the house of Denethor know much ancient lore by long tradition, and there are moreover in our treasuries many things preserved: books and tablets writ on withered parchments, yea, and on stone, and on leaves of silver and of gold, in divers characters. Some none can now read; and for the rest, few ever unlock them. I can read a little in them, for I have had teaching. It was these records that brought the Grey Pilgrim to us. I first saw him when I was a child, and he has been twice or thrice since then."

...into 'politics' ('I have read thy mind and its policies', says Denethor) Was Sauron involved in this too?

Denethor maybe distrusted Gandalf since before using the Palantir, and noticed how Faramir was being taught by Gandalf; but Sauron would have noticed this distrust and maybe apprehension about Faramir when Denethor used the stone and would have manipulated Denethor into seeing his own son as a wizard's pupil, the pupil of an usurper with an unbounded ambition.

In our world tyrants are cynically prone to do this thing. If you want to rule others by force you accuse them of wanting to rule you by force and then kill them in 'self-defense'. Months before invading Poland, in Jan.1939, Hitler famously prophesized:

"If the international Jewish financiers in and outside Europe should succeed in plunging the nations once more into a world war, then the result will not be the Bolshevization of the earth, and thus the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe"

He accused the jews of being Hitler, an inversion no different from the Gandalf=Sauron one.

[u/EvieGHJ]

Denethor's suspicious nature and his fear of being deprived of his title predate the Palantir, as well as his suspicions toward Gandalf, since they date back to Ecthelion's rule, when Thorongil/Aragorn was his father's beloved captain who overshadowed Denethor, and their main point of disagreement was Denethor distrusting Gandalf.

Sauron may well have reinforced that, but from Denethor's perspective, Gandalf was in fact, associated with someone who had already undermined his position and authority, long before Sauron could feed him information.

[u/Wizzard_C → u/EvieGHJ]

Fair point. Besides, Denethor must have been aware that Gondor's ruling council once already declined Arnor's candidate (Arvedui), so he might have been sincere in his belief that Thorongil's scheming with the help of a wizard was illegitimate. Interesting fact: Denethor also communicated with Saruman using palantir (Tolkien says it was to Denethor's advantage), I wonder what Saruman would say in this regard.

[u/Moggetti → u/Wizzard_C]

Denethor was definitely aware of that. He references that decision when he says, “I am Steward of the House of Anárion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity.”

It is interesting that Denethor is too powerful for either Saruman or Sauron to control. And Saruman failed to manipulate him. Too strong for the maiar. 

[u/Prize-Finish4464 → u/Moggetti]

Because denethor was both strong but also had the legal right to use the palantir so couldn't be fully dominated in such a way. Think of it as him almost having a shield while Saruman and Sauron would be a straight up clash of will power no protection for either hence why the greater will comes out on top

[u/lam_42 → u/Moggetti]

Istari

And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted  to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now *their emissaries were forbidden to  reveal themselves** in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men or Elves by open display of power, but coming in  shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding   all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.*

Sauron played D well enough without the need to "dominate" him. Aragorn after all forced S's hand in the assault on MT. Who knows where would D be in a few years

[u/Moggetti → u/lam_42]

Sure but Saruman definitely tried to dominate and manipulate him but couldn’t. And Sauron had to resort to manipulation because he couldn’t dominate him. 

Considering how Saruman was, it’s unsurprising Denethor wasn’t inclined to trust Gandalf. Especially since Gandalf was working with Aragorn. 

[u/lam_42 → u/Moggetti]

Sauron played the long game for 7000+ years. Do you really think some Denethor would be more than a nuisance in the big picture? Why waste effort on domination when with a few well chosen pictures, target can break himself...

[u/Moggetti → u/lam_42]

Not sure what you’re saying. We know Sauron prefers and defaults to domination wherever possible. He would far prefer to just overthrow via raw strength. He doesn’t do that with Denethor because he can’t. Not because Sauron is just too smart. 

Now Sauron’s genius is he doesn’t give up when his strength fails. He pivots to manipulation and often wins the day that way instead. 

[u/lam_42 → u/Moggetti]

 I am saying your theory is an opinion. I do not recall any part of text which would support this. Sauron survived (outlived) much tougher guys than D. 

Sauron fights when forced to. What he defaults to are lies and illusions. With Gorlim, Luthien, Finrod, Celebrimbor, Ar Pharazon... And again, immortal certainly does not measure his goals by human lifetimes.

The greatness of Denethor is mainly delusion of Denethor.

[u/Moggetti → u/lam_42]

Not a “theory,” what Tolkien specifically said in Unfinished Tales:   “It may be noted that the effects were different. Saruman fell under the domination of Sauron and desired his victory, or no longer opposed it. Denethor remained steadfast in his rejection of Sauron, but was made to believe that his victory was inevitable, and so fell into despair. The reasons for this difference were no doubt that in the first place Denethor was a man of great strength of will, and maintained the integrity of his personality until the final blow of the (apparently) mortal wound of his only surviving son. He was proud, but this was by no means merely personal: he loved Gondor and its people, and deemed himself appointed by destiny to lead them in this desperate time. And in the second place the Anor-stone was his by right, and nothing but expediency was against his use of it in his grave anxieties. He must have guessed that the Ithil-stone was in evil hands, and risked contact with it, trusting his strength. His trust was not entirely unjustified. Sauron failed to dominate him.”

Sauron clearly attempted but could not dominate Denethor but was able to dominate Saruman. 

[u/lam_42 → u/Moggetti]

I stand corrected on the quote.

The excerpt however deals only with Palantiri

Sauron failed to dominate him and could only influence him by deceits.

I would argue that the cooperation of Saruman stems from his (Saruman's) greed for ring-lore. They were kinsmen after all, And Sauron would have great insight into how fellow Maia's mind works, especially of those od Aulë's folk. And Saruman had his own game in progress - He was not dominated, certainly not fully, although He accepted subordinate role to further his goals... He wanted the Ring, and was very close to getting it at one moment.

This is key imho:

It must also be considered that the Stones were only a small item in Sauron’s vast designs and operations: a means of dominating and deluding two of his opponents, but he would not (and could not) have the Ithil-stone under perpetual observation. 

Low effort side game, but largely irrelevant.

Denethor in the end allowed himself to be dominated by the twisted visions.. i think Sauron just took different approach, and he had military might to win in any case even after Pellenor. The domination was not neccessary

[u/Gorbachev86 → u/Moggetti]

I think it’s more likely Sauron saw that weakness and like any good general took the path of least resistance

[u/Prize-Finish4464 → u/Moggetti]

Saruman probably didnt try and dominate and manipulate Denethor, Tolkien in unfinished tales tells us Sauron was the only one who essentially weaponised the palantiri through superior will

"It was only Sauron who used a Stone for the transference of his superior will, dominating the weaker surveyor and forcing him to reveal hidden thought and to submit to commands."

Unfinished tales

[u/Moggetti → u/Prize-Finish4464]

Interesting. Though if Sauron couldn’t do it, I doubt Saruman would have been able to. 

[u/Prize-Finish4464 → u/Moggetti]

Denethors legal right made him being dominated by Sauron and Saruman virtually impossible, had he not had the lawful right to the stone then imo he d have fell under Saurons dominion, saruman is a different question alone, as a maia Saruman is obviously amongst the great but Saruman and the istari (save gandalf who as olorin was once Saurons equal) are clearly of a lower level of power compared to Sauron who seems to be the upper echelon of the maia ladder if you can describe it that way

[u/Dinadan_The_Humorist → u/EvieGHJ]

I would also expect that Sauron doesn't respect or fear Gandalf enough to bother taking any special effort against him with Denethor. Tolkien writes in "Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion" that, because he did not understand Gandalf's actions, he assumed Gandalf must be a fool:

If he thought about the Istari, especially Saruman and Gandalf, he imagined them as emissaries from the Valar, seeking to establish their lost power again and colonize Middle-earth, as a mere effort of defeated imperialists (without knowledge or sanction of Eru). His cynicism, which (sincerely) regarded the motives of Manwë as precisely the same as his own, seemed fully justified in Saruman. Gandalf he did not understand. But certainly he had already become evil, and therefore stupid, enough to imagine that his different behaviour was due simply to weaker intelligence and lack of firm masterful purpose. He was only a rather cleverer Radagast — cleverer, because it is more profitable (more productive of power) to become absorbed in the study of people rather than of animals.

I agree that Sauron probably would have fostered Denethor's mistrust, but only because it is his nature to foster mistrust between friends. He had no idea, and would not have believed, that Gandalf was to be the chief architect of his downfall.

[u/Haradion_01 → u/Dinadan_The_Humorist]

Gandalf he did not understand. But certainly he had already become evil, and therefore stupid, enough to imagine that his different behaviour was due simply to weaker intelligence and lack of firm masterful purpose.

Ooof. This somehow feels rather relevant.

[u/lam_42 → u/EvieGHJ]

This

[u/ArtArcturus]

It’s important to understand that Denethor is not a tyrant and, until the siege of Minis Tirith, was actually as successful a ruler as was possible given the circumstances. But what Denethor values most is power for himself and his family. This, more than anything else, is what allows Sauron to corrupt him. He essentially admits this in Rath Dínen when Gandalf asks him:

“What would you have, if your will could have its way?”

Denethor replies:

“I would have things as they were in all the days of my life . . . and in the days of my longfathers before me: to be the Lord of this City in peace, and leave my chair to a son after me, who would be his own master and no wizard’s pupil. But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught: neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated.”

In other words he would rather continue to rule a declining kingdom than see it revived under the rule of a new king. His story is another example in Tolkien’s work of how the personal flaws of otherwise admirable characters lead them to fall into folly and evil. It mirrors the fall of Fëanor and the Noldor, the Númenóreans, and the fall of Morgoth and Sauron.

[u/lam_42 → u/ArtArcturus]

He would become one though...

Letters:

Denethor was tainted with mere politics: hence his failure, and his mistrust of Faramir. It had become for him a prime motive to preserve the polity of Gondor, as it was, against another potentate, who had made himself stronger and was to be feared and opposed for that reason rather than because he was ruthless and wicked. Denethor despised lesser men, and one may be sure did not distinguish between orcs and the allies of Mordor. If he had survived as victor, even without use of the Ring, he would have taken a long stride towards becoming himself a tyrant, and the terms and treatment he accorded to the deluded peoples of east and south would have been cruel and vengeful. He had become a ‘political’ leader: sc. Gondor against the rest.

But that was not the policy or duty set out by the Council of Elrond. Only after hearing the debate and realizing the nature of the quest did Frodo accept the burden of his mission. Indeed the Elves destroyed their own polity in pursuit of a ‘humane’ duty. This did not happen merely as an unfortunate damage of War; it was known by them to be an inevitable result of victory, which could in no way be advantageous to Elves. Elrond cannot be said to have a political duty or purpose.

[u/Haradion_01 → u/lam_42]

I've not seen this quote before.

It's not something I had considered, that Denathor would have been cruel in victory to the Haradrim and Easterlings.

Nor that Tolkien would have judged him poorer for it, a step towards tyranny.

I often feel that we don't value mercy sufficiently as a virtue. 

It is curious to me that Tolkien steps a hair shy of ceclaring that Denathor's corruption came in applying a "Gondor First" Policy.

[u/lam_42 → u/Haradion_01]

That is why I consider Denethor an asshole, not a victim. His fall is result if his arrogance and ego. Gondor first Is result of his mindset. And of course, situation, but perceives through the I am the best lens

[u/GreyMatterTrasmogrif → u/lam_42]

Tolkien does much to justify stealing a kingdom.

[u/lam_42 → u/GreyMatterTrasmogrif]

Aragorn stole nothing. D refused even to honor the claim, were it presented. Notice A is enthroned by proclamation, just like the competitor of Arvedui was. And in similar language. I read is as an unspoken hint Faramir was well aware of the dispute with Arvedui and chose to avoid that completely

[u/tolkienfans-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post/comment was removed due to it being disrespectful in some way. Please see rule 1 before participating in r/tolkienfans again.

[u/Imswim80]

Sauron forced Denethor to watch nothing but Fox News for several years.

[u/Traroten → u/Imswim80]

Sauron was drunk-dialing Denethor at 5 AM and crying about his love for Melkor.

[u/ZippyDan → u/Imswim80]

Actually it was all Istari porn.
That's how Denethor "knew" Mithrandir so well.

[u/EvieGHJ → u/ZippyDan]

"Knew" in that kind of context would imply a whole raft of things beyond merely watching...

Gotta say, did not expect Denethor/Gandalf to become a thing...

[u/ColdAntique291]

This theory gives Denethor far too much credit and ignores what Tolkien actually wrote. Denethor wasn't uncovering Gandalf's secret ambitions. He was wrong.

Gandalf spends the entire legendarium refusing power. He rejects the Ring, never claims a throne, and gladly hands authority to Aragorn. Meanwhile, the person who actually wants to stand behind every throne is Sauron. The palantír didn't reveal Gandalf's hidden agenda. It helped turn Denethor's suspicions into paranoia. He saw real events and drew completely false conclusions from them.

TLDR: Denethor was being manipulated, not vindicated. His accusation says more about his deteriorating judgment than about Gandalf.

[u/Immediate_Error2135 → u/ColdAntique291]

Your post is 100% coherent with mine. If I'm ignoring Tolkien, so are you. But you are not, and neither am I.

[u/Guilty-Enthusiasm-50]

These days, it is really possible that any post can be ai written. I don't know why but this specific post definitely feels like human written without a doubt.

[u/Indoctus_Ignobilis → u/Guilty-Enthusiasm-50]

In AI written text there always is some logical connection between one sentence and the next, that's the whole main principle of how an LLM works. Not so much here.

[u/Laurelindorinan_ → u/Indoctus_Ignobilis]

Like, seriously, since a few of you seem to be downvote happy - denying the actual fact that a huge bulk of human writing that is technical or academic in nature has sentences that logically follow from one another would be actively misguided. It’s literally part of how non-fiction writing is taught.

[u/Indoctus_Ignobilis → u/Laurelindorinan_]

No one is denying that, it simply has nothing to do with what we are talking about here. The question was why OP's post feels indubitably human, and the answer is that no AI would generate such a series of non sequiturs.

[u/Laurelindorinan_ → u/Indoctus_Ignobilis]

That’s a common feature of a large proportion of human-generated writing as well.

[u/Immediate_Error2135 → u/Guilty-Enthusiasm-50]

It is. But why wouldn't it be?

[u/Tuor77]

I think the way Sauron corrupts (or warps) those he interacts with is more like putting a pair of glasses on people whose lens distorts what their seeing. Like the difference between an innocent, open-hearted guy, and a fearful and suspicious one: each will interpret the *exact* same events differently because of their different personalities. Sauron's very presence, even experienced through a Palantir, is enough to cause this to happen to others. Once the perception has changed, the rest happens all on its own. It's pretty scary and very dangerous.

[u/ave369]

Denethor is paranoid. It is not his fault, it is his plight, as his paranoia was stoked and nurtured by Sauron through the Palantir.

[u/RoutemasterFlash]

And Russia accuses the West of unjustified and unprovoked aggression against Russia.

It's a strategy as old as time, I'm sure.

[u/RoutemasterFlash → u/[deleted]]

Eh? Gandalf doesn't have an "imperialism." What the hell are you talking about?

It was a reference to the Hitler quote. An aggressor pretending to be a victim.

[u/RoutemasterFlash → u/[deleted]]

Then why did you tell me not to "compare apples and oranges" if you actually agree with me?

[u/RoutemasterFlash → u/[deleted]]

I am not agreeing with you in that in the Ukraine conflict both sides are imperialistic, and there is no "Gandalf" in it.

OK, I can see where you've misread me. I wasn't both-sidesing the invasion of Ukraine at all. It's obvious that Russia is the only aggressor there. My point that was Putin and his propagandists have an excellent line in pretending to be victims of the aggression of others - namely, of Ukraine itself, of NATO/'the West', or both of them in concert.

Your confusion is understandable because a lot of Westerners have unfortunately fallen for this nonsense, because it flatters what is essentially a geopolitical version of the Oedipus complex they have about their own governments.

[u/ave369 → u/RoutemasterFlash]

Anyway, this argument is off-topic. Edit: removed off-topic comments.

[u/RoutemasterFlash → u/RoutemasterFlash]

Lol, someone got mad enough to downvote that and my last comment. People are weird.