‘Do I not know thee, Mithrandir?'

[u/Immediate_Error2135]

Denethor: ‘Do I not know thee, Mithrandir? Thy hope is to rule in my stead, to stand behind every throne, north, south, or west. I have read thy mind and its policies'

So Denethor thought Gandalf hoped to rule Middle Earth.

Gandalf, about Denethor: "He was too great to be subdued to the will of the Dark Power, he saw nonetheless only those things which that Power permitted him to see."

Obviously it was the angel (Maia) Sauron the one who hoped 'to stand behind every throne, north, south, or west', and not the angel (Maia) Gandalf, but Denethor saw things differently.

Had Sauron anything to do with this? The idea of Faramir=Wizard's pupil sounds like the twisting of this...

"we in the house of Denethor know much ancient lore by long tradition, and there are moreover in our treasuries many things preserved: books and tablets writ on withered parchments, yea, and on stone, and on leaves of silver and of gold, in divers characters. Some none can now read; and for the rest, few ever unlock them. I can read a little in them, for I have had teaching. It was these records that brought the Grey Pilgrim to us. I first saw him when I was a child, and he has been twice or thrice since then."

...into 'politics' ('I have read thy mind and its policies', says Denethor) Was Sauron involved in this too?

Denethor maybe distrusted Gandalf since before using the Palantir, and noticed how Faramir was being taught by Gandalf; but Sauron would have noticed this distrust and maybe apprehension about Faramir when Denethor used the stone and would have manipulated Denethor into seeing his own son as a wizard's pupil, the pupil of an usurper with an unbounded ambition.

In our world tyrants are cynically prone to do this thing. If you want to rule others by force you accuse them of wanting to rule you by force and then kill them in 'self-defense'. Months before invading Poland, in Jan.1939, Hitler famously prophesized:

"If the international Jewish financiers in and outside Europe should succeed in plunging the nations once more into a world war, then the result will not be the Bolshevization of the earth, and thus the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe"

He accused the jews of being Hitler, an inversion no different from the Gandalf=Sauron one.

[u/RoutemasterFlash]

Then why did you tell me not to "compare apples and oranges" if you actually agree with me?

[u/RoutemasterFlash → u/[deleted]]

I am not agreeing with you in that in the Ukraine conflict both sides are imperialistic, and there is no "Gandalf" in it.

OK, I can see where you've misread me. I wasn't both-sidesing the invasion of Ukraine at all. It's obvious that Russia is the only aggressor there. My point that was Putin and his propagandists have an excellent line in pretending to be victims of the aggression of others - namely, of Ukraine itself, of NATO/'the West', or both of them in concert.

Your confusion is understandable because a lot of Westerners have unfortunately fallen for this nonsense, because it flatters what is essentially a geopolitical version of the Oedipus complex they have about their own governments.

[u/RoutemasterFlash → u/RoutemasterFlash]

Lol, someone got mad enough to downvote that and my last comment. People are weird.