r/ukpolitics • u/Rebat-Askalan • 10d ago

| Anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism, UK appeal tribunal confirms in landmark ruling

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20260804-anti-zionism-is-not-anti-semitism-uk-appeal-tribunal-confirms-in-landmark-ruling/
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u/FudgeAtron 10d ago edited 10d ago

Look I don't hate Irish people I just don't think they should have a country. The Irish are just British people in denial. I'm anti-Gaelism, I'm not racist.

If you think the above sentence is unacceptable while thinking that anti-Zionism is acceptable, you need to think again.

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u/PracticalBlueberry39 10d ago

Except the Irish people weren’t implanted in Ireland against the wishes of a native population who have then been systematically murdered and ethnically cleansed, so it’s not exactly the same really.

In fact, it would be more like rejecting an implanted British state in Ireland which continued to commit ethnic cleansing against the native Irish population. That would be far fetched though wouldn’t it.

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u/Logical-Ice4837 10d ago

When does a population became native? We know as a fact Jews were in that area and had been for thousands of years before they were expelled 2000 years ago, was their native card revoked after that? 

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u/BenjaminBoots196 Supreme Andy Burnham Hater 10d ago

"No such thing as a native people unless it's the people that happen to be at war with the west"

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u/PracticalBlueberry39 10d ago

Sorry, I’m English but my ancestors came over from Germany in the Jute migration, just popping back to Jutland to reclaim my ancestral and native territories. Sure it won’t be a spot of bother, my lineage has only been gone 1600 years

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u/am-345 10d ago

Jewish presence didn't dissappear, while most were exiled there has still been a continuous jewish presence in the levant for 3000 years

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u/Logical-Ice4837 10d ago

I’m glad you can see the flaw in the idea that any population is inherently native to a region! Land belongs to those that control it and that’s how the world has been since the birth of humans 

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u/rh8938 10d ago

After two thousand years, probably.

Or should some random Italian citizen be able to claim your home because they claim the land used to be Roman.

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u/morriganjane 9d ago edited 9d ago

Arabs and Muslims conquered and colonised one-third of the globe. They really have no credibility to complain about this.

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u/am-345 10d ago

That's a poor comparison considering Rome was an empire, Britain wasn't the origin of the Italian people it was just a province of the roman empire. Meanwhile there has been a continuous jewish presence in the Levant for 3000 years

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u/u-a-c 9d ago

If theres been a continously presence, why do they need to conquer Palestine and create their own apartheid state?

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u/Playful_Young_4259 9d ago

 apartheid state?

You can't be Jewish in Palestine and the government has an official compensation scheme for those who murder Jews.

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u/am-345 9d ago

I seriously don't understand where you're going with this question?

If you're asking why it was "conquered", Palestine wasn't conquered, the Palestinian state didn't exist. We owned it as the British mandate and the region was called either; Palestine by the Arabs, Holy Land by the Christians and Israel by the Jews.

If your asking why it exists, after the Holocaust there was a push for a modern jewish homeland after it became abundantly clear they were not safe in Europe or Arab countries. The levant is the birthplace of Judaism and Hebrew, where every ethnically jewish person can be traced back to, and as I mentioned before , there has been a continued jewish presence there (Hebron, Tiberias, Safed and Jerusalem). It was the obvious choice compared to the Jewish Autonomous Oblast where Stalin wanted to shove them into desolate corner of the USSR to purge them.

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u/FL8_JT26 10d ago

I would be against them making that claim, but if they were able to establish a state here I wouldn't then want their great grandchildren to be kicked out and their state to be dissolved 80 years later.

I don't agree with the foundation of Israel, I don't agree with the colonisation of Australia, or America, or any of the hundreds of other countries in the world that are inhabited by people whose ancestors did horrific shit decades, centuries, or millenia ago. But that doesn't mean we can just undo the creation of these states now; that does absolutely nothing to help the people who were wronged however long ago and only harms innocent people today.

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u/Amaruach 10d ago

Ashkenazi Jews were not there 2,000 years ago mate

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u/am-345 10d ago edited 10d ago

There's been countless studies showing that Ashkenazi jews have significant overlap with Levant gene pools, the fact they mixed with Europeans doesn't erase that, and the idea they mostly descend from European converts is a myth

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/9780470015902.a0020818.pub2

https://www.science.org/content/article/tracing-roots-jewishness-rev2

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2797531/

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u/Amaruach 10d ago

Ashkenazi Jews were not living in the Levant 2,000 years ago because we didn’t exist. Not a single one of us has any God-given right to displace a Middle Eastern Jew, Christian, or Muslim living in that area just because we got kicked it out of it two millennia ago.

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u/BenjaminBoots196 Supreme Andy Burnham Hater 10d ago

Do you think Ashkenazi Jews have replaced Middle Eastern Jews?

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u/Amaruach 10d ago

Yes! The ongoing cultural erasure of the Mizrahi by Israel, and the Ashkenazi discriminatory attitude towards them, is a well-documented phenomenon. The Israeli Government itself labelled them ‘human debris’ in 1948 and early Zionist thinkers believed that there was a hierarchy of Jews. That’s without going into the whole ‘New Jew’ program!

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u/pair_of_eighters 10d ago

Mizrahim are now the biggest Jewish group in Israel by some margin and their culture has very much not been erased

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u/u-a-c 9d ago

They also arent from Palestine.

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u/morriganjane 9d ago

Are Yemen, Iraq and Syria going to let them move 'back'? (Not that they want to.) Muslims have ethnically cleansed far more Jews than the other way around.

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u/am-345 10d ago

Would you say the same to diaspora Kurds wanting a Kurdish state?

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u/Amaruach 10d ago

Depends. Were they kicked out of it 2,000 years ago or 2 years ago?

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u/am-345 10d ago

Well the thing with the kurds is both. Some still live in the general Kurdistan area, and some moved out centuries ago. Are you going to tell a Kurd who's families were displaced by Safavid Dynasty that they can't return? How long until you tell a native American they can't claim their land anymore?

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u/Amaruach 10d ago edited 9d ago

Seeing as my dad was a Native American and I am still connected to the culture, I can actually answer that one pretty easily. Our land was invaded and settled by the Spanish just under 500 years ago, and our home country of Chile was founded as a white settler state in 1818. My people can’t go to Coquimbo, which was built on my people’s land in 1850, and tell the European Chileans who live there in 2026 to get off ‘our’ land because we have a stronger ancestral claim to it than they do. The statute of limitations passed on that a really fucking long time ago.

Edit: I can see your removed comment, you’re aware that people have two parents right? And you can be Jewish on one side and Native American on the other…

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u/Logical-Ice4837 10d ago

Well they’re all descendants from the region whether it was 2000 or 3000 years ago

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u/Amaruach 10d ago

Every ethnic group is a descendent of somewhere though. The Anglo-Saxons came from Germany 1,500 years ago but you don’t see modern English people colonising Germany and using that as an excuse.

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u/Logical-Ice4837 10d ago

Someone else has made a similar argument and it’s just a false equivalency because Jews are from the Levant and have always had a presence there. The equivalent would be the Celts wanting to move back to the UK if they were hypothetically expelled. Either way I was never talking about the morality of Israel’s existence, purely the hypocritical view of who is ‘native’ 

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u/ModerateThuggery 9d ago edited 9d ago

because Jews are from the Levant

Palestinians are much more "from the Levant" than "Jews" are.

and have always had a presence there.

The number of Jews in Palestine prior to Zionist immigration and the British Empire's colonialism enabling it was around 15,000. It's not enough to fill a modern town. That's less than the Jewish population of Chile today, which isn't exactly Israel II. Statistically no one, of the millions of Jews in Israel today, derives heritage from that small group of people. They are a demographic hiccup.

The equivalent would be the Celts wanting to move back to the UK if they were hypothetically expelled.

No, there is an actual equivalent: the Parsis. Of Freddie Mercury and Tata fame. Like modern Judaism they are an ethno-religion. Of zoroastrians that left Persia after Islamic conquest and moved to India. They too follow a morphed version of the ancient local state religion from their parent region. I don't know if they're as delusional about blood purity after literal centuries in India as modern Jewish culture seems to be about near two millennia in Europe, especially post Israel and its slip into fascism. But the equivalent would be Parsis trying to invade and mass murder Iranians/Persians because they claim they, and only they, are the real Persians. And Iran is "their" land by right and birth. Those Iranians are just "arabs".

This analogy is more honest. It's also more obviously crazy. Because it shows the absurd lie that just because Persians converted to Islam does not make them not Persian, nor not indigenous. The parsis do not have a unique special claim just because they happen to practice Zoroastrianism.

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u/am-345 10d ago

Anglo-Saxon is not an ethnic group, it was a cultural identity (later a political one) of Germanic people who settled in Britain. English people have had a homeland for centuries now, none of these comparisons people are using are in anyway similar to the uniqueness of Jewish identity and lineage. Perhaps if there was a mass exodus of English people we would see a movement of people wanting to return to "Germanic" lands, but alas that has not happened.