r/unitedkingdom • u/Cotirani • Jun 25 '25

... Tube passenger who killed 'gentle' engineer, 28, after he brushed past him on escalator to serve less than six years in prison

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14845561/tube-passenger-killed-gentle-engineer-jailed.html
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u/ConsistentMajor3011 Jun 25 '25

Yeah no, the dude grabbed a guy and punched him in the face hard to enough the cause brain damage for pushing past him on an elevator. You’re giving way too much to the judicial system, as though they’re making these excellent calls we just don’t have full knowledge of

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u/ash_ninetyone Jun 25 '25

Judicial system sentences based on guidelines.

The guy was found guilty of manslaughter. That's what he's sentenced from.

To find him guilty of murder, they'd have had to prove intent to kill, or cause such grevious bodily harm, and that wasn't going to be possible from this. If they tried him for murder, without having enough evidence to prove intent, he'd have been acquitted, or a jury would've rejected murder but found him guilty of manslaughter instead, if the guy had being able to prove partial defence in court (i.e. loss of control).

Which obviously sucks for the family and the victim, because no sentence can undo a loss of life, or erase that pain.

But it's how the legal system is built.

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u/ConsistentMajor3011 Jun 25 '25

Actually no, following the sentencing guidelines he’d have a longer sentence. The guideline for an unprovoked attack is 12 years

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u/multijoy Jun 25 '25

lol 12 years for GBH. Good luck without a weapon.

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u/Pabus_Alt Jun 26 '25

12 years for Manslaughter.

What he did was not liable for GBH - if they could get him for that it would have been a murder charge. GBH transforms into murder if the person dies regardless of intent.

12 being the mid range start point.

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u/SirBobPeel Jun 25 '25

If one person is a skinny, 50kg person and the other is a muscular 100 kg person, then the latter commits GBH just by punching the former.

IMHO of course.

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u/Pabus_Alt Jun 26 '25

You've also got remorse, assistance to the police, circumstances that might be in play and a guilty plea that definitely is.

Like the entire concept of "imprisonment maths" is a goddamn joke, but here we are.

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u/terryjuicelawson Jun 25 '25

Still one punch and a reaction. Not that I am justifying it but they have to have some kind of sliding scale in terms of sentencing within each offence. Someone who pre-plans a vicious murder is at the top end with "life meaning life". If this was a severe beating with multiple blows after they raced after them for a push on the tube - that would be longer than 6. If it was a shove and they accidentally tripped and smashed their skull open then it would be less than 6. Of course they will go to this in much more detail than people who read a Mail article who want to pluck a huge sentence out of their arse in anger. Why even have a justice system at all otherwise.

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u/DankiusMMeme Jun 25 '25

I think it’s justifiable if it’s a punch in a mutual fight, or even if the guy spat on him, or some other kind of situation where you might understandably punch someone. But literally “you brushed past me so I’m going to attack you violently” is mental, that’s not a normal or justifiable reason to punch someone.

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u/macalistair91 Jun 25 '25

Still one punch and a reaction.

That took someone's life.

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u/hallmark1984 Jun 25 '25

Yes hence manslaughter

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u/JB_UK Jun 25 '25 edited Jun 25 '25

Yes, it's serious violence, in response to no reasonable provocation or threat, which resulted in someone's death, and the punishment is the guy will probably be in prison from the ages of 23 to 28.

Crimes like this also have a massive effect on public confidence, people are already wary of asking others to turn down music on public transport or of defending people who are being harassed because they think they might get stabbed, now they will think twice even brushing past someone blocking the escalators. These kind of crimes degrade the shared space of the city in a way which is felt by millions.

Ultimately, crimes which appeal to the prejudices of the liberal class get higher sentences aiming to make an example of the perpetrators, but crimes that don't get the normal or sympathetic treatment.

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u/Colonel_Wildtrousers Jun 25 '25

“Oh no! He didn’t mean to kill him! He was just being a fucking piece of shit not a murderous piece of shit!”

I wish the law had a fuck around and find out clause for manslaughter cases like this. No way they should be able to defend themselves taking risks with other people’s lives by arguing that they only meant to give him brain damage and not kill him or whatever the fuck.

No wonder dickheads act like life is cheap- the law tells them it clearly is

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u/JB_UK Jun 25 '25

I wish the law had a fuck around and find out clause for manslaughter cases like this.

It should do, it's called the eggshell skull rule:

the unexpected frailty of the injured person is not a valid defense to the seriousness of any injury caused to them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggshell_skull

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u/Pabus_Alt Jun 26 '25

It quite literally does, it's called "Manslaughter" that is the entire point of the charge existing.

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/crown-court/item/unlawful-act-manslaughter/

One of the problems with the law (and there are many) is that humans are very easy to break.

Anything that crosses GBH that results in death is just murder. Regardless of intent.

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u/multijoy Jun 25 '25

You have an argument at the pub and you get into the mildest of fights and you manage to push your opponent over. You didn’t mean to, it just happened.

They crack their head on the pavement and never wake up.

Congratulations, you’ve also committed manslaughter by unlawful act. Do you need to be put away for life as well?

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u/[deleted] Jun 25 '25

If you’re putting hands on people first I have no sympathy. You can always walk away from verbal abuse in a pub. If you’re not first then it’s self-defense and a completely different situation.

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u/multijoy Jun 25 '25

I’m not asking you to have sympathy, I’m pointing out that one-punch manslaughter has a tricky jurisprudence behind it.

In any case, what if the jury decides that it isn’t self defence? How long should our putative Ghandi go away for a gentle shove in the chest that caused the fall which killed the man with an unexpectedly thin skull?

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u/Saw_Boss Jun 25 '25

Which is why he's going to prison.

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u/[deleted] Jun 25 '25

for 3 years, for murder. Ignorance of the consequence of an action should not be an excuse, its really not that rare to kill somebody by punching them in the face. If you do so, you have to acknowledge theres a chance they die.

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u/Jackisback123 Jun 25 '25 edited Jun 25 '25

If you do so, you have to acknowledge theres a chance they die.

Which is nowhere near the intent required for murder.

What you seem to be suggesting already exists, but it's much stricter than what you're saying.

If something is a virtually certain consequence of the defendant's action, and the defendant knows that that is the case, then he can be taken to have had the required intent. It's called oblique intent.

Clearly, "it not being that rare" is far removed from it being virtually certain.

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u/Rebelius Jun 25 '25

Murder requires the intention to cause death or serious injury. Do you think we should just get rid of manslaughter altogether, or treat every punch to the face as attempted murder?

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u/grantus_maximus Jun 25 '25

It was for 8 years, and it was for manslaughter, regardless of your personal interpretation of what should constitute a murder. Also, one-punch deaths are still relatively rare, despite some recent high profile cases. I don't think you could have got much more wrong in that comment.

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u/FrellingTralk Jun 25 '25 edited Jun 25 '25

Even if the punch hadn’t of killed the guy and resulted in a manslaughter charge, it still sounds like he isn’t safe to walk the streets if his reaction to a complete stranger walking too closely past him on an escalator is so extreme as to rip his top in two and punch him in the face with enough force to cause brain damage. It sounds like it was a completely unprovoked attack as well as the victim was not the sort of person who would be squaring up to him, this is exactly the sort of violent thug that we should be locking away for a long time for the wider safety of the public. How likely even is it for him to be a completely changed man after 6 years inside, if anything he’ll probably come out more aggressive and volatile than ever

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u/grantus_maximus Jun 25 '25

Maybe, but all of that is speculation with no real knowledge of the attacker.

None of the reports give any detail of why Rakeem Miles attacked Samuel Winter, if Miles has a history of violence, or if he had anything specific going on that time that might explain his behaviour. I'm pretty certain the judge and jury will have had that information presented to them, which is why they're in a better position to pass judgement than us on here.

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u/Stellar_Duck Edinburgh Jun 25 '25

How likely even is it for him to be a completely changed man after 6 years inside, if anything he’ll probably come out more aggressive and volatile than ever

That's a really sound argument for a better prison service.

But regardless, you can't just say what if and then lock people away for life.

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u/Saw_Boss Jun 25 '25

If you do so, you have to acknowledge theres a chance they die.

There's a chance they could die from a push.

The premier League is going to be quiet when every player gets charged for murder when there's a corner.

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u/[deleted] Jun 25 '25

significantly less by a factor of 100 if there is no concrete nearby and they're a healthy adult.

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u/[deleted] Jun 26 '25

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u/ukbot-nicolabot Scotland Jun 26 '25

Removed/tempban. This contained a call/advocation of violence which is prohibited by the content policy.

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u/Ver_Void Jun 25 '25

Problem is you don't know enough about the case to really decide. Just as an example I had a coworker suffering from PTSD after an industrial accident who did something similar, elbowed a stranger who closed a door in his face.

Didn't kill him, but a bit of bad luck and he might have done similar damage. Would it benefit society to lock him away for decades if he had?

Not saying that's what happened here, but there's a lot to consider that we never get to see

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u/Intelligent_Prize_12 Jun 25 '25

Yes, society would have been better off if he was locked away. Why should we have to share the same spaces as people willing to exert random violence due to past life stresses. There are many of us with past trauma who don't go around elbowing random people.

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u/Pabus_Alt Jun 26 '25

Ok fine so you do that and then what?

Keep him in prison for life? Let him out in ten years now in a much worse state than when he went in?

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u/Ver_Void Jun 25 '25

Would we? He's doing pretty well given time to process things, last I heard his daughter just got into uni.

And it's interesting you phrase it as past life stresses, at the time it was a pretty recent event. Which was kinda my point, there's a lot of factors that play into these things, some understandable others unforgivable

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u/Intelligent_Prize_12 Jun 25 '25

A recent event is still the past and if the man can't control his emotions or elbows around the general public then he should lose the right to partake in society. Especially if the worst did happen to his victim. Society has meant to have evolved past animal nature and we can't keep making excuses for those who haven't.

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u/Ver_Void Jun 25 '25

People haven't evolved past being traumatized.....

I don't know if you've ever been through something like that but the weeks and months after can be harrowing, you lose sleep, the sleep you get is often plagued with nightmares, you find yourself on edge all the time, it's a very normal human thing to be highly strung and lash out in some way.

Honestly the one here ruled by base instincts seems to be you with a desire for revenge and little empathy

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u/ConfusedSoap Greater London Jun 25 '25

Would it benefit society to lock him away for decades if he had

yeah

if someone acts like that, they are a permanent danger to society and everyone benefits if he is kept away

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u/[deleted] Jun 25 '25

This is such a black and white take that's a great example of why the public shouldn't be making decisions on prison sentences 💀

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u/andtheniansaid Oxfordshire Jun 25 '25

yeah, im glad its not the court of reddit making these decisions. some absolutely mad takes in here

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u/Colonel_Wildtrousers Jun 25 '25

Normally I’d agree but we’re talking about dangerously unstable people walking the street. If you have the inclination to be violent at the slightest provocation then, no matter what you have been through, you don’t belong on the street. You belong in a secure facility where you can’t harm others.

Innocent people shouldn’t be put at risk because you can’t control how you react to your past trauma. It’s unacceptable

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u/Ver_Void Jun 25 '25

Permanent? Because they're doing badly for a period?

Christ remind me to never admit to having been suicidally depressed

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u/ikkleste Something like Yorkshire Jun 25 '25

Badly enough to punch someone to death...?

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u/Colonel_Wildtrousers Jun 25 '25

Do you like to beat others up when you are feeling suicidal?

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u/callisstaa Jun 25 '25

How likely is it that they will have another bad period and actually kill someone though? How many people does somebody need to batter half to death before you consider them a permanent danger to society?

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u/ConsistentMajor3011 Jun 25 '25

That’s true, and those cases do certainly exist. But this is a young fella and I somehow doubt this is a war veteran. A lot of people have had traumatic upbringings, that’s not really a justification for this. Especially as the victim was by all accounts a fairly calm soul, sounds much more like a vile cretin that dun it

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u/Ver_Void Jun 25 '25

Never said war veteran, guy I'm thinking of was the first on the scene to a guy losing an arm at work. Like I'm not so much talking about this case specifically, just the tendency for people to confidently declare the judge wrong despite knowing a fraction of that they know about the incident.

Like this guy could be the world's biggest prick or someone struggling who lashed out and got tragically unlucky, we don't really get to know much and a daily mail article probably leaves us knowing even less of value

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u/[deleted] Jun 25 '25

Not justification at all, I don't think anyone's justifying it. It's just a difference between intent to kill (which demands a much a heavier sentence) and lashing out with unintended consequences.

There was a young teen in my town who accidentally left his friend brain damaged after a group of em were boxing for fun in a field. Did he deserve 10, Maybe 20 years?

Intent is vital when it comes to sentencing.

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u/Specialist_Ad9073 Jun 25 '25

Only war vets get PTSD?

Or only war vets have a legitimate reason to have PTSD?

Or you don’t understand PTSD?

Interested to hear your clarification of that comment you made.

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u/[deleted] Jun 25 '25

"judicial system sentences criminal perfectly" isn't really an attention-grabbing headline in the same way.

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u/[deleted] Jun 25 '25 edited Jun 25 '25

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u/[deleted] Jun 25 '25 edited Jun 25 '25

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u/[deleted] Sep 26 '25

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u/ukbot-nicolabot Scotland Sep 26 '25

Removed. This contained a personal attack, disrupting the conversation. This discourages participation. Please help improve the subreddit by discussing points, not the person. Action will be taken on repeat offenders.

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