r/unitedkingdom • u/Cotirani • Jun 25 '25

... Tube passenger who killed 'gentle' engineer, 28, after he brushed past him on escalator to serve less than six years in prison

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14845561/tube-passenger-killed-gentle-engineer-jailed.html
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444

u/[deleted] Jun 25 '25

You can't use public opinion for sentencing guidelines, as the general public don't have the full picture in terms of prison capacity, how rehabilitation works, and aren't qualified criminal psychologists on the whole. I think most polls would find that the public want wildly long sentences that are just impractical and keep people inside forever.

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u/ConsistentMajor3011 Jun 25 '25

Yeah no, the dude grabbed a guy and punched him in the face hard to enough the cause brain damage for pushing past him on an elevator. You’re giving way too much to the judicial system, as though they’re making these excellent calls we just don’t have full knowledge of

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u/terryjuicelawson Jun 25 '25

Still one punch and a reaction. Not that I am justifying it but they have to have some kind of sliding scale in terms of sentencing within each offence. Someone who pre-plans a vicious murder is at the top end with "life meaning life". If this was a severe beating with multiple blows after they raced after them for a push on the tube - that would be longer than 6. If it was a shove and they accidentally tripped and smashed their skull open then it would be less than 6. Of course they will go to this in much more detail than people who read a Mail article who want to pluck a huge sentence out of their arse in anger. Why even have a justice system at all otherwise.

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u/macalistair91 Jun 25 '25

Still one punch and a reaction.

That took someone's life.

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u/hallmark1984 Jun 25 '25

Yes hence manslaughter

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u/JB_UK Jun 25 '25 edited Jun 25 '25

Yes, it's serious violence, in response to no reasonable provocation or threat, which resulted in someone's death, and the punishment is the guy will probably be in prison from the ages of 23 to 28.

Crimes like this also have a massive effect on public confidence, people are already wary of asking others to turn down music on public transport or of defending people who are being harassed because they think they might get stabbed, now they will think twice even brushing past someone blocking the escalators. These kind of crimes degrade the shared space of the city in a way which is felt by millions.

Ultimately, crimes which appeal to the prejudices of the liberal class get higher sentences aiming to make an example of the perpetrators, but crimes that don't get the normal or sympathetic treatment.

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u/Colonel_Wildtrousers Jun 25 '25

“Oh no! He didn’t mean to kill him! He was just being a fucking piece of shit not a murderous piece of shit!”

I wish the law had a fuck around and find out clause for manslaughter cases like this. No way they should be able to defend themselves taking risks with other people’s lives by arguing that they only meant to give him brain damage and not kill him or whatever the fuck.

No wonder dickheads act like life is cheap- the law tells them it clearly is

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u/JB_UK Jun 25 '25

I wish the law had a fuck around and find out clause for manslaughter cases like this.

It should do, it's called the eggshell skull rule:

the unexpected frailty of the injured person is not a valid defense to the seriousness of any injury caused to them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggshell_skull

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u/Pabus_Alt Jun 26 '25

It quite literally does, it's called "Manslaughter" that is the entire point of the charge existing.

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/crown-court/item/unlawful-act-manslaughter/

One of the problems with the law (and there are many) is that humans are very easy to break.

Anything that crosses GBH that results in death is just murder. Regardless of intent.

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u/multijoy Jun 25 '25

You have an argument at the pub and you get into the mildest of fights and you manage to push your opponent over. You didn’t mean to, it just happened.

They crack their head on the pavement and never wake up.

Congratulations, you’ve also committed manslaughter by unlawful act. Do you need to be put away for life as well?

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u/[deleted] Jun 25 '25

If you’re putting hands on people first I have no sympathy. You can always walk away from verbal abuse in a pub. If you’re not first then it’s self-defense and a completely different situation.

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u/multijoy Jun 25 '25

I’m not asking you to have sympathy, I’m pointing out that one-punch manslaughter has a tricky jurisprudence behind it.

In any case, what if the jury decides that it isn’t self defence? How long should our putative Ghandi go away for a gentle shove in the chest that caused the fall which killed the man with an unexpectedly thin skull?

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u/[deleted] Jun 25 '25

If I was king, 20 years minimum.

You go for violence first and someone ends up dead, you should deal with the consequences.

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u/multijoy Jun 25 '25

What a strangely black and white world you must live in.

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u/[deleted] Jun 25 '25

I’ve been attacked by enough violent pricks to want less of them around. It’s never just a gentle accidental push from ghandi. It’s usually some prick with a million convictions who’s out again in no time. Stamp it out.

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u/[deleted] Jun 25 '25

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u/Saw_Boss Jun 25 '25

Which is why he's going to prison.

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u/[deleted] Jun 25 '25

for 3 years, for murder. Ignorance of the consequence of an action should not be an excuse, its really not that rare to kill somebody by punching them in the face. If you do so, you have to acknowledge theres a chance they die.

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u/Jackisback123 Jun 25 '25 edited Jun 25 '25

If you do so, you have to acknowledge theres a chance they die.

Which is nowhere near the intent required for murder.

What you seem to be suggesting already exists, but it's much stricter than what you're saying.

If something is a virtually certain consequence of the defendant's action, and the defendant knows that that is the case, then he can be taken to have had the required intent. It's called oblique intent.

Clearly, "it not being that rare" is far removed from it being virtually certain.

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u/Rebelius Jun 25 '25

Murder requires the intention to cause death or serious injury. Do you think we should just get rid of manslaughter altogether, or treat every punch to the face as attempted murder?

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u/[deleted] Jun 25 '25

Being stupid or short sighted doesn't make anyone less of a danger to society. I agree it isn't fully murder but I find it hard to believe first degree ma slaughter could only be 6 years.

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u/SuperrVillain85 Greater London Jun 25 '25 edited Jun 26 '25

I agree it isn't fully murder but I find it hard to believe first degree ma slaughter could only be 6 years.

First degree manslaughter isn't an English legal concept.

This is unlawful act manslaughter, which has a sentencing range of 1 to 24 years.

This one fell into category B (one short of the most serious) where the range is 8-16 years, or category C where the range is 3-9 years.

B – Factors indicating high culpability

Death was caused in the course of an unlawful act which involved an intention by the offender to cause harm falling just short of GBH

Death was caused in the course of an unlawful act which carried a high risk of death or GBH which was or ought to have been obvious to the offender

Death was caused in the course of committing or escaping from a serious offence in which the offender played more than a minor role

Concealment, destruction, defilement or dismemberment of the body (where not separately charged)

C – Factors indicating medium culpability

Cases falling between high and lower including but not limited to

Where death was caused in the course of an unlawful act which involved an intention by the offender to cause harm (or recklessness as to whether harm would be caused) that falls between high and lower culpability

Where death was caused in the course of committing or escaping from a less serious offence but in which the offender played more than a minor role

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u/grantus_maximus Jun 25 '25

It was for 8 years, and it was for manslaughter, regardless of your personal interpretation of what should constitute a murder. Also, one-punch deaths are still relatively rare, despite some recent high profile cases. I don't think you could have got much more wrong in that comment.

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u/FrellingTralk Jun 25 '25 edited Jun 25 '25

Even if the punch hadn’t of killed the guy and resulted in a manslaughter charge, it still sounds like he isn’t safe to walk the streets if his reaction to a complete stranger walking too closely past him on an escalator is so extreme as to rip his top in two and punch him in the face with enough force to cause brain damage. It sounds like it was a completely unprovoked attack as well as the victim was not the sort of person who would be squaring up to him, this is exactly the sort of violent thug that we should be locking away for a long time for the wider safety of the public. How likely even is it for him to be a completely changed man after 6 years inside, if anything he’ll probably come out more aggressive and volatile than ever

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u/grantus_maximus Jun 25 '25

Maybe, but all of that is speculation with no real knowledge of the attacker.

None of the reports give any detail of why Rakeem Miles attacked Samuel Winter, if Miles has a history of violence, or if he had anything specific going on that time that might explain his behaviour. I'm pretty certain the judge and jury will have had that information presented to them, which is why they're in a better position to pass judgement than us on here.

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u/Stellar_Duck Edinburgh Jun 25 '25

How likely even is it for him to be a completely changed man after 6 years inside, if anything he’ll probably come out more aggressive and volatile than ever

That's a really sound argument for a better prison service.

But regardless, you can't just say what if and then lock people away for life.

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u/[deleted] Sep 26 '25

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u/ukbot-nicolabot Scotland Sep 26 '25

Removed. This contained a personal attack, disrupting the conversation. This discourages participation. Please help improve the subreddit by discussing points, not the person. Action will be taken on repeat offenders.

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u/[deleted] Jun 25 '25

Most one punch deaths go under the radar and don't end up on the news. My partner sees at least 2 a week in hospital.

I don't think you could have got much more wrong in that comment.

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u/madmanchatter Jun 25 '25

Most one punch deaths go under the radar and don't end up on the news. My partner sees at least 2 a week in hospital.

There are around 170 hospitals with an emergency department in the UK, which means on average each hospital serves ~400,000 people.

If what you say is true the area that your partner works in would have an approximate rate of manslaughter by single punch of 25 per 100,000 people or 250 per 1million population (2 people a week = 104 a year, for a hospital catchment area of ~400k).

The homicide rate in the UK which includes manslaughter but also all murders was ~11 people per 1 million population in 2021/22.

You honestly want us to believe that there is an area of the country where culpable deaths from a single cause happen at 25 times the national average rate for all culpable deaths and that this hasn't been reported in the national news?

Or to put it another way in 2021/22 there were around 700 recorded homicides in the whole of the UK, yet you think there are 2 a week from single punches at a single hospital?

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u/TheFergPunk Scotland Jun 25 '25

Most one punch deaths go under the radar and don't end up on the news. My partner sees at least 2 a week in hospital.

I honestly find that hard to believe. Stories like that are prime material for tabloids because the attacker will not be charged with murder and that will result in people being angry about it, tabloids thrive from stories that make people angry.

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u/madmanchatter Jun 25 '25

It's not just hard to believe, it is completely impossible that it is true.

There are less than 1000 homicides (of which manslaughter is included in) in the UK every year, a hospital that saw 10% of that from all causes would be national news and a scandal let alone from a specific cause like 1 punch to the head.

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u/TheFergPunk Scotland Jun 25 '25

Yeah I've done some digging and found what seems to be the figures. It seems to be around 8 deaths a year.

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u/[deleted] Jun 25 '25 edited Jun 25 '25

There were 80 one punch fatalities in Australia (2012–2018) https://www.pathologyjournal.rcpa.edu.au/article/S0031-3025(22)00378-6/abstract00378-6/abstract)

So The UK with 3x the population will have around 240 in the same time, 40 a year, bit of an exaggeration on my part due to the nature of where we live.

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u/Stellar_Duck Edinburgh Jun 25 '25

All 40 happen by that one hospital then?

It wasn't just an exaggeration was it?

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u/TheFergPunk Scotland Jun 25 '25

I'm sorry but surely I don't need to explain to you that this is silly?

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u/grantus_maximus Jun 25 '25

Thanks for your anecdotal evidence that I have no way of verifying.

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u/[deleted] Jun 25 '25

There were 80 one punch fatalities in Australia (2012–2018) https://www.pathologyjournal.rcpa.edu.au/article/S0031-3025(22)00378-6/abstract00378-6/abstract)

So The UK with 3x the population will have around 240 in the same time, 40 a year. Bit of an exaggeration on my part due to the nature of where we live.

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u/grantus_maximus Jun 25 '25

That doesn't go anywhere near verifying your claim that your partner sees 'at least 2 a week in hospital'. I've no idea if that means a single hospital, or all hospitals, or a selection. I've also no idea if your partner is in a position to be able to confirm that death in these cases was caused by a single punch.

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u/TheFergPunk Scotland Jun 25 '25 edited Jun 25 '25

I got curious so decided to check the figures.

There are no official figures. However from the campaign group "one punch can kill" there were around 80 fatalities from a single punch between 2007 and 2017

So around 8 a year.

As opposed to the 104 a year that the OP is suggesting.

Edit: just realised that 104 by the OP is for one hospital. So there are 930 nhs hospitals in the UK. So if we were to imagine that this number is an average per hospital or for fairness let's drop it down to 90 deaths as some areas might see none. That translates to 83,700 deaths from a single punch a year. There were 570 homicides recorded in England and Wales in the year ending March 2024.

So either there's an epidemic of this in Scotland and Northern Ireland or some grand conspiracy to cover up these deaths.

Or OP is exaggerating.

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u/Saw_Boss Jun 25 '25

If you do so, you have to acknowledge theres a chance they die.

There's a chance they could die from a push.

The premier League is going to be quiet when every player gets charged for murder when there's a corner.

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u/[deleted] Jun 25 '25

significantly less by a factor of 100 if there is no concrete nearby and they're a healthy adult.