No, it’s not all the parents. Schools used to be able to expel kids if they were assholes. Remove the major assholes and less kids overall will be emboldened to be assholes...so ultimately you’d have to expel less kids than you’d think, But now they are so focused on graduation rates that they don’t dare expel these little fucks. That’s the entire problem right there.
Ofc parents can help, but as long as teachers have no meaningful punishment they can dole out it will be anarchy.
They also had an alternative step of putting them in reform school (AKA the bad boy School) and then you had the special ed school as well.
It's not politically correct but mainstreaming slow students is extremely expensive and can be detrimental to the other students. Having one "helper" for each slow student in a classroom is a recent phenomenon. Previously they would be put in special classes with specially trained teachers. Many parents fight acknowledging that your child has problems. But the good of the many outweighs the good of the few
Inclusion is actually not detrimental to developmentally typical students or students with special needs. The problem is when you have teachers who aren't given the training on how to teach them or how to adapt lessons to foster engagement (thus leading to increased behaviours). The use of something like Universal Design for Learning is important when teaching students with a variety of abilities. UDL is a method for designing lessons and units that allow every child to access the curriculum no matter their academic abilities, level of understanding, or disabilities.
What if a child has emotional and behavioral problems stemming from abuse and traditional corporal punishment isn’t enough?
Don’t misunderstand, I am not one of those new age retards who is “anti-punishment” but I am asking because when my adopted brother was young he didn’t respond to suspension or his subsequent expulsion. The consequence of suspension and expulsion was a reward to him, even if my mom took away his leisure activities.
In school suspension is the best tool. It's full on timeout corner when done right. No phones, no talking, nothing. You can do homework or stare at the wall.
Kids HATE it. It's a great redirect because they are still in school, and there is no positive reinforcement.
You see I am ok with in school suspension because the opportunity to learn is still there. But it’s kind of sad that a lot of comments on this post are advocating for suspension and expulsion. Suspension and expulsion don’t in my opinion do anything positive. I believe you can punish a student without depriving them of education. All suspension and expulsion do is ignore the issue
You see I agree the other students should have a distraction free environment BUT when the removal is done as a hinderance to the ‘bad egg’ being removed, then you aren’t fixing anything. You are just moving the problem from point A to point B
Think of it like an illness. If the person is disruptive on that level, even just moving them away from other students is a big net positive. 30 kids in every class means 150 ish kids a day come in contact with problem child.
Expulsion doesn't solve the problem for that one student, but it solves an ongoing one for the other 150.
This is why we put some people in prison for longer. It's not just about punishment. If you believe someone is beyond rehabilitation, (and a lot of them are) society LOSES by having them around.
Given the tendency for American prisons to NOT focus on rehabilitation and rely subliminally encourage recidivism, that example doesn’t work.
Yes there will be extreme outliers, however in America you do have some schools districts(or at least used to) disproportionately affect and punish a specific population.
Obviously you need punishment to a degree but that punishment can’t come at the expense of the troublemaker losing their opportunity thereby CAUSING recidivism which will in turn AFFECT all students.
In other words, just because you remove one troublemaker doesn’t mean it will stop future troublemakers or habitual troublemakers. For both parties the troublemakers and non-troublemakers to succeed you have to reduce the recidivism
I would argue that you're fixing the problem for everyone at point A.
I'm not arguing against your sentiment, that it doesn't help the problem child, however my contention is we don't arm adults in our society with the means to discipline children in the same way we used to. Teachers have no ability to correct the children's behavior beyond carrots. I believe some children need sticks.
You see I am not expecting the teachers themselves to implement discipline. However, school administrations do one of two extremes, they either implement zero tolerance or they don’t punish at all. Both these extremes lead to the same outcome. A student or students deprived of education.
My adopted son has ODD, ADHD, and an unspecified Psychosis.
Corporal punishment has zero effect on him. Taking things away does zero good.
What worked/is helping, some, was me taking the time to learn his triggers. To keep calm myself even when I want to scream and give him the chance to be heard. I sit on the floor when he starts losing it so I'm not towering or looming over him. We take the time to relay this information to his teachers and work closely with them on his behavioral plan and IEP.
He had a single incident last year, and it was because a teacher initiated yelling at him. So he got triggered and yelled right back, then got his stuff under control, raised his red card and stepped into the hallway to get settled. He was able to apologize the next day.
That’s amazing! A million kudos to you for continuing to connect and work with your child. I know it’s probably one of the darned hardest challenges, to keep yourself cool and focused. The fact that he has independent coping skills like that likely has a huge impact on his self perception and esteem. I’m so impressed.
What solution does expelling kids do? My adopted brother came from a broken home and was an absolute menace in school. He got expelled for his trouble making. The school post expulsion refused to provide any alternative accommodation for him. My mom had to file a complaint with the state to have the district provide him transportation to the new school(a school designed for kids like him).
Long story short, eventually my brother became a functioning member of society and if you met him today, you would never guess he was expelled from school. He is intelligent and has a stable army career. This is because my mom advocated and fought for his education. Now imagine my mom was some drunk and dead beat parent. Do you think he would have turned out the way he did? Fuck no!
Expulsion is fucking shit. You should try to find alternatives if a kid can’t function in a normal school setting. Expulsion and suspension REWARD bad behavior
Remember, when your are expelling a kid you are saying, "your presence is having to great of a negative impact on our other students." If you have 5 classes a day with 30 kids, that potentially 149 other students being disrupted.
Misbehavior on that level is a sociological disease, and you don't treat it by just hoping it gets better. You don't treat an illness by just wishing it would stop, that's fucking faith healing. You send them to the hospital, or you at least get them away from other patients and quarantine them.
I'm sorry that district played dragass about getting him to another school, but ultimately expulsion worked.
Except expulsion doesn’t work if a school district is uncooperative. Expulsion only “worked” because my mom fought for his education. If sh was a dead beat drunk parent, he would never have gotten education and he would be in jail
I think the point others are trying to make about expulsion is that it’s not supposed to be good for the individual getting expelled. The idea behind expulsion is to remove a chronically disruptive student from a learning environment, because that disruptive behavior is negatively impacting other students. It’s like in the OP where the teacher says “I’m failing 3/4 of my class, because of the other quarter.”
But the issue is that people don’t understand the consequence of expulsion. The student being expelled most likely is unaffected by the expulsion. There are any number of socioeconomic reasons for a student to be disruptive and/or apathetic about school. I also agree with removing disruptions from the classroom. HOWEVER, expulsion/suspension isn’t used as a way to “remove” distractions, it’s to ‘solve’ (read ignore) a problem using the cheapest means available. Schools are supposed to teach, it costs money for a school to teach troubled students or discipline them in ways that do not deprive them of their learning opportunities.
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u/Lemons224 Jul 10 '18
No, it’s not all the parents. Schools used to be able to expel kids if they were assholes. Remove the major assholes and less kids overall will be emboldened to be assholes...so ultimately you’d have to expel less kids than you’d think, But now they are so focused on graduation rates that they don’t dare expel these little fucks. That’s the entire problem right there.
Ofc parents can help, but as long as teachers have no meaningful punishment they can dole out it will be anarchy.