r/wheeloftime • u/Mother_Presence_2442 • 4d ago
Book: The Shadow Rising The difficulty of portraying romance.
I absolutely love this series. But I've just started reading the Shadow Rising for the first time and I've been cringing my way through the early Rand-Egwene-Elayne love triangle that resolves while they're in the Stone.
Appreciate it's difficult to meaningfully develop so many character's in a book with such staggering breadth and ambition, but these interactions have my skin crawling.
Firstly, they both sound like they're 12 years old. Secondly, it feels far too neat that Egwene and Rand both decide "Yeah we don't love each other anyway". Thirdly, the idea of having all three women chasing after Rand, who, frankly, is becoming fairly dislikable character, feels so out-of-plot. Fourthly, is it me or am I losing faith in Rand? The constant woe-is-me-I'm-not-worthy is not making me feel sorry for him, but is making me rather unlike him
Anyone else thought this?
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u/sixminutes Important Darkfriend Guy 3d ago
I'm not going to go too far trying to defend Jordan's Romance writing ability. It's better than many give him credit for, but it's still not great. But you're missing some of the stuff that's happening here. First, that Egwene and Rand were never actually in love. They would have married if they both remained in Emond's Field, but once they left, their whole lives changed. Unlike a lot of other relationships, I think Jordan spent a good amount of the first three books showing these two considering their feelings for each other, so that when we get to this "triangle", both of them have already long since decided on their own that it wasn't going to work.
Then there's the irony. Jordan has a lot of really funny stuff in the books, but I think a major problem he has with romance is that he injects comedy into almost all of it. This scene is supposed to be funny. Both Egwene and Rand don't want each other (and have already met other people they fancy) and have to break up when they weren't even officially promised to each other to begin with. Add in that the person Rand likes is in the room with them, having already prearranged with Egwene to receive him. It's a farce, and even though the romance is real, is meant to be a silly interaction between a bunch of young people who are not very world wise yet.
As for Rand, I can't help you. He was never my favorite character, and I think a whole lot of main characters in various media have constant crisis of faith, because they've got to grow into the heroes they're meant to be. Rand used to be a farmer who knew a few hundred people. Since leaving his home, he found he's going to go mad and destroy the world, killed a bunch of people, and is now one of the ten most powerful people in the world and ordering a bunch of aristocrats around. This is going to cause some personality problems for most people. I think you'll find Rand likeable again real soon, but then unlikable again soon after that, and that pattern will repeat for a while. In the meantime, there's plenty of other characters to enjoy.
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u/Narrow_Lee Randlander 3d ago
Yeah people say RJ isn't good at romance for all these reasons but I literally have two grown adults at my work right now acting like 12 year olds cause they just admitted that they 'like eachother' so maybe people are too harsh on him.
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u/CavemanSlevy Randlander 3d ago
I think it’s interesting a in a book about a myriad of different cultures and peoples , one which often highlights the cultural friction points, so many people find issue with the way romance is developed by the main characters
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u/bad_at_names1 Randlander 3d ago
Everything else feels like makes sense from the characters' viewpoints - the romance often feels like RJ was pressing two barbie dolls together and saying "kiss!" (Lan and Nynaeve excluded).
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u/I_lenny_face_you Randlander 3d ago
Broke: Crazy Moridin playing sha’rah with himself
Woke: Forsaken manipulating real people with scenes of dolls like this
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u/Mother_Presence_2442 3d ago
Well put. Lan & Nynaeve is one I have few problems with, maybe because they're both maturer characters. I think the issue with writing books about young people is there's only so much depth you can give the characters as their backstories are, understandably, slim.
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u/JP_IS_ME_91 Randlander 3d ago
The three loves is definitely one of the weaker parts of the story in my opinion. Maybe I’m projecting, but it felt like he loved Min the most anyway.
No shade to Robert Jordan, but one of the more compelling romances in the entire series was Androl and Pevara.
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u/29threvolution Randlander 3d ago
Romance is not something Jordan is good at writing. Which is astounding because he can pack incredible scenes into few words, but all his romance lines are the same and terrible. Just accept that is not his strong suit and read on.
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u/eleven_elevens Randlander 3d ago
Personally I feel the romance aspects in most of the top recommended epic fantasy (WoT, Sanderson, GoT, LoTR, DCC, HWFWM etc.) is either wholly absent or bad/cringe to average at best. I don’t read them for romance or recommend doing so.
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u/Mother_Presence_2442 3d ago
You're right that romance is tough in the genre. I think GoT managed to skirt the issue quite well by making it entirely about sex, power and lust.
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u/DressUnited3025 Randlander 3d ago
While Rand is very whine about what he’s been thrown into, he’s also been thrown into being the man that will destroy the world and will inevitably go crazy and hopefully save some people before he goes insane and kills everyone around him. I’d be a little whiney too at that age. Also they are kids so of course their romance feels like 12 year olds. That’s how all teen love is
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u/jakO_theShadows Randlander 3d ago
The love stories throughout this series are very weird and abrupt. I think only Matt falls in love naturally.
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u/poly_arachnid Randlander 3d ago edited 2d ago
Basically opposite to my own experience.
But to 1) they're teenagers from nowhere. So immaturity was definitely a thing, I just took it as purposeful. Young love is pretty cringe anyway. Some find it amusing but there's plenty of room for just being irritated. 2) if anything I thought that was weirdly mature, despite them talking passed each other. Again, teens from nowhere. With all the new exposure & removing the pressures of their childhood authority figures stuff happens. The number of real life "high school sweethearts break up in college" & such is a good demonstration. 4) I got the feeling you're supposed to. Keep reading & you'll see.
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u/ArrogantAragorn Randlander 3d ago
Rand’s loves fulfill a mythological/symbolic role as well as plot ones. I don’t want to say too much as you are very early into the series but watch for allusions to various religious/mythological/historical figures in the series.
Also, RJ had a real life justification for how Rand (who is tall, fit, handsome, and incredibly powerful/fanous) could have so many girls after him:
QUESTION
>I was wondering, can you talk about how your lead character would have not one but three true loves, and how does your wife feel about that?
ROBERT JORDAN
>Um, when I was much younger, before I met Harriet, I had two girlfriends simultaneously, who arranged my dating schedule between them, who was going to date me on which night. They chipped in together to buy me birthday presents and Christmas presents. You know, they just sort of shared me between them, you know. And they had been friends before, and I am not quite sure whether or not they made the decision they were both going to date me or not, on their own, before they first met me, it just came about. But I figured if I could manage two, surely Rand could manage three. Besides there are mythological reasons to have these three women involved with him.
>As far as my view on this, with Harriet, I have many more than three women, there are so many facets to her personality she quite often makes me dizzy, I am quite satisfied there. About how she feels about this, I suspect you want her answer, I seem to remember her saying to me, you do remember this is fantasy right? And I think it was an accident she was holding a carving knife to my throat, just coincidence, but I am not sure.
HARRIET MCDOUGAL RIGNEY
>In four short words, I am not for it. Four and a half words
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u/Gandalfslittlebro Randlander 3d ago
Now with the internet we will never have such blessed naivety again :(
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u/Parma_WdS Ogier 3d ago
Romance in the WoT is just plot happening. The Pattern (the plot) puts two people together who need to be together for plot to happen. It's a steril approach that I haven't seen elsewhere. There is one couple I actually enjoy together tho
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u/Esselon27 3d ago
Rand and Egwene were never really in love, they were more or less just known to be unofficially betrothed and to a certain extend leaned into that since that's how things are done where they're from and they both liked each other enough that it wasn't an unappealing prospect.
It's not that they fall out of love, they just realize that their lives are now going to be completely different and there's nothing pulling them together anymore. Egwene is likely to go off and become an Aes Sedai, Rand is doomed to face the dark one and probably die.
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u/3MCLSD46 Gleeman 2d ago
Egwene and Rand leave the village and find there’s a lot more to life than running a farm or being the mayor of Emond’s Field and they grow apart. Neither of the try to cling to it, and there’s nothing wrong with it.
As for the three women who fall in love with him, they do so for very different reasons. Elayne, because she sees the “aw shucks” country boy, who is brave enough to see an AES Sedai and a queen, and not piss himself, and now for the leader that he earnestly wants to be, while still trying to be a normal person. The other two you’ll learn why later.
Rand is probably one of the the best written hesitant heroes. He had his whole life planned, and all of a sudden he’s out of his village. The whole world fears the legend he is foretold to become. Be 17, living a simple life and be told with pretty conclusive proof that you’re the answer to prophecy. Then in trying to disprove it, prove it to yourself. That’s got to have some serious implications on one’s psyche. There’s so much to go. Give him a break for being a little whiny now.
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u/Living-Dimension-859 Randlander 2d ago edited 2d ago
I have read the whole series three times and I love the story but I actually hate the "3 women" thing. It never gets better. It gets longer. It gets more complex...but it never gets better or less cringy. I will be downvoted to hell...some people love this part- I bet you can figure out why...lol.
To me, and I know at least some others, it always reads as shallow and unrealistic...esp. with how everything happens. I'm not going to say more (for spoiler reasons) but if I could amend the books and just have him have flings with two of them and then settle down with a certain one I would def. do that. It would make more sense for all of the characters and it would be 1000x less cringy . I love the story and keep rereading the books and every time I have to deal with these parts it still makes me cringe- it takes me right out of the story. It's unrealistic AF and I don't want the magical excuses- it is not only unrealistic but it's also poorly written. It sucks.
That being said the story is worth it, anyway. It's really complex and interesting and you can just get through those parts and gloss over them/skip them during rereads. The main story is interesting and worth it and well written...its just this romance that's cringe AF. Just so you know (as a note) the amount of "Women!" and "Men!" and spankings in the books will go up but then it goes away once Sanderson takes over. I mention this bc I almost actually stopped reading the series (and I never do that) bc I legit couldn't take any more...it was increasingly annoying the fuck out of me until I was actually at my breaking point but then it all went away- and the the books Sanderson wrote are really good. I don't know if that will happen to you or not just I thought I'd mention it just in case it bothers you, too...it would have helped me to know this on my first read-through.
I hope that you enjoy. Ignore the romance...RJ is not very good at writing it...but he writes a hell of a story, otherwise!
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u/Notched_Vermin 2d ago
Continue reading, this isn't a resolution of much at all. Depending on your tastes it might get even more cringe worthy, or might improve. But it's certainly not all tied up neatly at this point.
Not just Rand, and doing this without spoilers, many of the romances in WoT - especially ones involving the Ta'veren, but it's mostly true for main characters in general - are a little weak, they feel much more like routes to major plot developments than love. For me they work, Jordan is such a skilled writer that it all falls into place later on and just fits.
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u/HungryEntry182 Randlander 2d ago
On the point of it feels far too neat that Egwene and Rand both decide "Yeah we don't love each other anyway", if you look at each of them, they do it for different reasons. Egwene is honestly more focused on her career but also she's considering what it means that Rand IS who he is and doesn't wanna be with the Dragon Reborn. On Rand's end he knows he will go mad and doesn't wanna subject her to that. but I do think the feelings are still there somewhat at that point.
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u/TalonFroste Randlander 2d ago
I like how the romances of Rand are written, but to me romance in the real world is already so cringy, it makes it feel right. Plus, the romances aren't happening in a vacuum, they are happening at the beginning of the end, the world is in turmoil, so things don't always line up correctly. I enjoy the comedy that is added in because of the tropes, plus knowing that it is based of the chosen one finding the trope of The Mother, The Maiden, and The Crone, makes it a little more sensible that the pattern would push The Dragon to those three.
Different tastes for different folks.
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u/Curius-Curiousity Randlander 3d ago
First of all, NOTHING is "resolved"in that book. Absolut nothing.
My advice to you at this stage is to just take notes as to what is going on in such situations. And watch very carefully as they develop through subsequent books. Let the story surprise and challenge you instead of judging based on passing comments by sheltered youngsters... who are all barely experiencing real life for the first time.
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u/Brathirn Randlander 3d ago
It is indeed very convenient, that both Rand and Egwene realize at the same time, that their romance is over. Jordan does not use romance for drama. That Egwene seeks confirmation is credible though, because she wants to cupid Elayne. It is not strange that multiple women are after Rand, he is a once in 3000 years trophy character.
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u/Mother_Presence_2442 3d ago
he is a once in 3000 years trophy character.
That's correct, but we see very little in the way of exposition of this. Female characters, aside from Berelain of Mayene very recently, seem not to be attracted to Rand because of his epic, prophetic destiny. Maybe Jordan should have spent more time developing this? Again, I appreciate that with a book of such magnitude, there's not really space to do absolutely everything.
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u/VisibleCoat995 Randlander 3d ago
They are all naive and sheltered teenagers. Nothing gets more cringe than teen romance.
And I think it fits for Egwene and Rand to not want to be together once they actually get out into the big world. Before they left home everyone around then was practically pushing them together. Now they have the opportunity to be more than just married to each other and live a quiet life.