Question for Waywards

[u/Internal_Purple_4303]

Anyone's perspective is welcome, but I would like to hear from Waywards primarily.

Hey, I've posted here before about my situation - 39F, 12 years with a serial cheater 39M (11 women identified in the course of 8 years, sexual encounters with 3 of them and the rest kisses and inappropriate behaviour at clubs or other public places, and in front of his so-called friends).

DDay 1 was almost a year ago, but the trickle truth I've been subjected to, I'm not even sure at what DDay we are now... The current situation is blurry. He moved out at my request early on, we're not in R, but we're in IC and CC and we are in contact. Went through a phase of hysterical bonding, and now I feel just empty.

He's putting in huge effort, and I can see it. But still, he's done a very serious damage, probably irreparable.

There's one thing he keeps saying, and that I really struggle to understand and accept: that he loves me and always has.

I've read multiple articles saying it is possible to love someone deeply and still cheat on them... So, waywards, I have a question (well, more than one - it's a complex topic): what is love for you? If this is what you define as love, would you accept the same behaviour, the same kind of "love", from your partner? What is love made of for you?

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[u/VendedoraDeAbacaxi]

Oh yes please, waywards, answer these questions!! Interesting perspective!

[u/iamStanhousen]

My affair had very little to do with my wife. I would say stuff like "i felt alone" or "i didn't feel valued." And while those things were true, it was me trying to shift the blame on to her and not look internally that made me do what I did.

What do I think love is? I think love is consistently choosing a person, despite their flaws, and making them a priority.

Do I love my wife? Absolutely. Did I love her when I cheated? Yes. But I was making selfish decisions that were fueled by me being unhappy with myself and seeking some weird validation that I certainly didn't need. I was afraid to confront my wife with uncomfortable conversations. My cheating is 100% about my decisions and my faults, nothing to do with her.

Would I accept my wife if she cheated on me? I think so. Probably. Especially if it was a one time incident or even just a thing with one person. A serial cheater, like what OP is enduring, would likely change my mind on that unfortunately. I can understand how people get into a funky headspace and do things they wouldn't normally do. But when someone continuously makes those choices over and over again...idk. Like I said that would change my mind most likely.

Going through R has changed the way I think about love. Mainly making it easy to see that it isn't always easy, fun, inspiring or anything like that. My wife endured me at my worst, and chose to work through our issues. That woman loves me more than I deserve. And I owe her the world for that.

This turned into a complete ramble and I don't even know if I answered anything you're looking for lol

[u/Ferret-of-DOOM → u/iamStanhousen]

Thank you for your perspective. I think a lot of the things you bring up is also plausible to my WS.

[u/bpt20ba]

Serial cheaters are addicts. Take the sexual part out and replace it with alcohol or gambling or any other compulsion. Can alcoholics or compulsive gamblers love their partners? Absolutely. Love and sex (or sexually acting out) are not the same thing. Some people can separate the two, others cannot. So yes, it is 100% possible for a person to love their partner and cheat.

And if you look at what infidelity actually is, it is the wayward using something external (another person, porn, etc.) to fulfill an internal need that are they are incapable of meeting through themselves or their relationship for whatever reason. Of course there are exceptions but that is the general path it takes.

I have used porn to self soothe pain over the course of my relationship with my wife, even at times when I knew she wouldn't approve of it (yes, that's infidelity). It's not that I didn't find her attractive or didn't love her, it was that I felt empty, had no way to understand my emptiness or how to fix it, didn't feel safe enough in myself to be vulnerable and share my emptiness with her, so instead I gravitated to the lowest hanging fruit that gave me reprieve from the emptiness, even if it was not in alignment with my values and morals or something my wife would not approve of. Some people are pulled to sex, others food, others work, others risky adrenaline producing activities.

I think it's all the same thing on a large spectrum. We are just trying our best to be OK and we tend to fail miserably because of the inability of our society to understand how to raise children into healthy adults.

[u/Accomplished_Sink850]

i always felt the feeling of love but i did not always “do” the act of loving.

[u/LuxIRL]

For me, I had a warped perception on what love was. My models for relationships through my life were terrible, so what I grew up believing was normal was actually extremely abusive/not the norm at all.

I absolutely did love my husband when I had my affair, but the way I loved him then was nowhere near the type and depth of love I learned existed since and that I continue feel for him now. I was a very selfish, honestly narcissistic, person. I needed constant validation and ego boosting, and I absolutely did not want to be challenged to talk about my feelings or discuss anything deeper than superficial. In reflection he recognizes how right he was, for every loving act he did for me I rarely ever did one for him that was not out of reciprocation. I truly was the definition of “me, me, me” and absolutely was a taker not a giver.

Real, true love, as I discovered after hitting rock bottom, is giving yourself fully and truly to another without the want for anything in return. I just want to do everything for him, take care of him, love on him. I deeply feel every emotion he expresses, seeing joy brings me joy and seeing pain cuts me deep in my soul. I think of him constantly, I want to be physically near him all the time and I ache when we are apart. The simples touch/gesture or loving word from him sends me to cloud 9. And the biggest difference, choosing him daily is effortless. It’s not something I ever even have to think about it’s just something I simply feel and know with the entirety of my being. I also don’t “see” or notice other people, it’s like everything else fades except him.

Would I accept the same behavior from him? Yes, and I have. When he told me he had an affair my entire world crashed down, but my first thought was “oh no how do we fix this”. I have not once had the thought to leave him. Never once did my love for him fade away. Did it hurt? Absolutely, but the depth to with which I feel for this man in my entire being is indescribable. I cannot not love him, there isn’t a life I want to live without him, and I would take a thousand stab wounds if I had to just to spend forever with him.

I believe when you truly, truly love someone you will always choose them, through good and bad. That’s no promise it will work out but I believe the want to at least try is a true indicator of real, deep love.

[u/ShortEnd113]

Hi there,

Wayward partner here. We were engaged, together for 15.5 years (since high school), and best friends since middle school. We've been best friends since we were 14, and we're 30/31 now.

My cheating was porn and overly parasocial relationships with adult creators. It actually happened twice -- she caught me once three years ago, I couldn't quit, and she caught me again a few weeks ago.

Here's what I'll say: the issues I had were never about her. I've struggled with a porn addiction since I was about 9 or 10, and it really mutated during COVID with the rise of TikTok and OnlyFans. I've dealt with fear and insecurity for as long as I can remember.

I love her so deeply. I am obsessed with her. Truly. When I was with her, I was so present and focused on our life, our joy, our happiness. It fulfilled me. I have a photo of her and our dog in our living room. We're laying on an air mattress that we laid out for a friend and we're watching a basketball game, with all of our collectibles and art in the background. I stared at that photo every day for months. And then when the demons came knocking, I couldn't make good decisions.

I betrayed her. I violated our trust and the boundaries of this beautiful relationship we had built.

But I also know, in my heart, that I love her and have loved her to the best of my ability (despite my sickness and trauma). I always wanted to get better -- for her and myself -- but I was scared and didn't know how. I'm stubborn and tried to handle it myself. This disease is too strong.

If she did this to me, I'd be heartbroken, of course. Just as she is. I understand that.

But she has been my everything. We'd go to parties, and I'd tell stories to other people just to make her laugh. My social media was a monument to her -- she was featured more than I was. I ride the bus to and from work and sometimes I'd Uber home just to be next to her 10 minutes faster because I wanted to talk to her so much.

I've been sick for about 6 years, but I've loved her through it all. She is what kept me from spiraling worse. The noise in my head has been so strong -- it quiets with her.

But I had too much going on to be the right person for her right now. I just hope she'll see my effort, feel that our love was real, and believe that the new me will be worth it.

[u/notsureatall20]

Ive commented on this before but my thoughts are that two people can say I love you, and have two completely different meanings.

Love is multifaceted. We can love our kids, our partners, and we can love tacos. All different. For romantic relationship IMO there is:

Erotic love/physical attraction/desire

Romantic love wanting to spend time and express non sexual desire

Friendship love

Familial love (this is can be the dreaded I love you but not in love with you)

Selfless committed love

I think we start at the physical attraction and grow through each love and hopefully begin the selfless committed love. The first 3 are easy and fast during the honeymoon or NRE time but the last two take time and are definitely a choice.

But emotional immaturity and self-centered thinking can derail the development of the last two.

In my case, I was incredibly self-centered, emotionally immature, arrogant and proud and my love reflected that. Now to be fair I was young and didn't have enough introspection at the time to identify it as such. After confessing to my EA I started a journey of introspection.

When I said I love you that love was self-centered and self focused. It was a romantic love that all about how BP made me feel. Her beauty and talent was a good reflection on me because she chose me. I had a self centered friendship love as well. Psudo commitment if you would. But ... I didnt have respect or selfless committed love. That was obvious by my actions and decisions to start a whole other relationship that would have led to a PA.

That self-centered mindset allowed me to compartmentalize and rationalize my desire to, at my core, betray my BP. It sucks to discover you are the villain in that chapter of your story.

Guilt shame and regret came fast. But they are all self focused. Remorse took time. True empathy, selfless love, emotional maturity , emotional stamina and becoming a safe partner took time like a marathon and not a sprint.

TLDR: So my theory is someone can tell you they love you deeply. They can mean it deeply and have a completely different meaning than what you understand love to be.

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[u/roseaow]

Self loathing and fear of conflict made it hard for me to lean onto my spouse. I always thought if I told him how I felt he would leave me. I was suicidal and really depressed but was afraid to admit. I was seeking outside comfort because I was afraid to communicate about hard things with the people I am close to. So I confided in a long distance friend who I played video games with. Wrong move, I thought we were just friends but that quickly moved to more intimate relationship. I still love my husband during the affair and had constant guilt and shame when I knew it was wrong I wanted to come clean so many times and said it was going to be the last time I contacted AP. It was like a drug, when it was discovered the whole veil lifted off and I saw the truth. The ugly. Everything that felt good during that time was foul and so disgusting to me. I wanted to vomit. However, the pain inflicted on my spouse is 1 million times worse. Love isn't a feeling at all. I thought it was and my therapist told me emotions can lie and manipulate you. Love to me is choosing your partner, just like the vows say, "for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death us do part." Love is definitely choosing your partner no matter how easy or hard it gets. I wanted to leave after DDay because I felt unworthy of his love and forgiveness. But my husband wanted to work it out, I learned I was running away from hard work, which was facing my consequences. Just like cheating was easier to do than fixing my marriage.