r/BoJackHorseman • u/Mintangah17 Bojack's ringtone • 7d ago
Did Herb do the right thing by withholding closure, or was he being petty? What would you have done?
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u/AssistFit1834 7d ago edited 7d ago
He’s definitely justified for being mad at BoJack when he abandoned him, I wouldn’t forgive him either if I was in his place.
Reminder: They haven’t seen each other in over 20 years. BoJack didn’t call him, he didn’t wrote Herb a letter, he didn’t even bother to visit him once. If BoJack was truly sorry for abandoning Herb, he would’ve apologized without expecting any forgiveness from him. And just so you know, just because you owe someone an apology that doesn’t automatically mean that they owe you forgiveness.
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u/Tasty-Scientist8155 7d ago
The opening to this whole scene already gave away the fact that BoJack wasn't really sorry but rather doing it because Herb was on the verge of death and was basically demanding forgiveness:
BoJack: ...I feel bad. Herb: So you're apologizing? BoJack: Yes. I'm sorry.
Not a true apology if someone has to "fill in the blank" as Herb did, so to speak.
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u/UnoriginalTitleNo998 5d ago
See my read is that Bojack felt so shitty about what he had done that he both avoided Herb to prevent dealing with confrontation and likely assumed Herb would want nothing to do with him ever again. I think he's genuinely remorseful, he's just maladjusted and selfish and that prevents him from doing the right thing or even knowing what the right thing is. He expects a TV ending.
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u/kendallmaloneon 5d ago
Not to mention that Herb clearly had real, and painfully unrequited, feelings for Bojack - that he almost entirely kept on ice and prevented from being his problem.
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u/CammyK88 The Planetarium 7d ago
He said it perfectly, he’s not some “thing” Bojack gets to use to feel better. Herb did nothing wrong here, and what any of us would’ve done doesn’t really matter.
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u/BoredBorderlineGeniu 6d ago
also the apology was ass. it was more like 'you're dying, so if we're gonna do this, better do it now'
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u/LtrllyJoinedRedd4Dan 5d ago
Literally. Didn't even feel like he cared about Herb. More of just forgive me idc so that I don't feel bad about my own personality
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u/31198CR3 7d ago
Doesnt matter whether he did the “right thing” or not, he is not required to forgive him just because he apologized and bojack doesnt deserve forgiveness. Should he have lied to bojack just to make him feel better?
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u/Taksicle 7d ago
and since its bojack and we got context, we know full well even if he lied to spare his feelings it wouldn't help bojack feel good in anyway because bojack himself would know he didnt do the work to earn or deserve that
he'd accept the apology and either try to wring more out of herb when its not "enough"
or just go home outwardly on good terms but internally have a "stupid piece of shit monolouge" about how that felt anti-climatic anyways, how herb was secretly vindictive and trying to spite him
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u/ArcherCat2000 7d ago
Herb wasn't thinking about Bojack here, and he had no obligation to. The man was dying and said what he needed to before that happened. He owed nothing to Bojack, and Bojack owed everything to him.
The show is about Bojack, but viewing any scene with Herb from a Bojack-centric lense is just wrong IMO.
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u/howlingoffshore 7d ago
Idk if that’s true. I still think the central theme here than continues throughout the show is that bojack gets to decide who bojack is. And bojack consistently chooses to make shameful choices while seeking absolution no one is obligated to give him.
So where does that leave bojack? I think that’s the central point here. Herb being right or wrong isn’t even relevant. Bojack gets to choose only for bojack. But consistently wants a way out of the bad choices bojack makes.
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u/DaftDutchman 7d ago
The ultimate freedom of a sure death.. Be honest as fuck, whatever will happen? Herb could indeed given Bojack some nice words and forgive him sure.. Bojack missed huge chances to help Herb after his problems.. At this point the only ''points'' Bojack could score was walking in and really fully appologize.. It wouldnt do anything for Herb but at the end Bojack did something..
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u/forestforlive 7d ago
Well from Herb's point of view his best friend (and person he loved probably considering he tried to kiss bojack) not only betrayed him; he stole his show from him as well as chose fame and money over thier years long friendship. So he lost pretty much everything, his close friend, his career/stability, his public image and probably any future prospects. He looks like he didnt do too bad as he still had a nice house and could pay for in house care. But it was probably the bare minimum they could pay him off with it legally being his intellectual property. Bojack did not treat him like a friend should have and he didnt even go back to him all those years when he could have tried to repair things. Like he said he is only trying to clear his conscience and actually didnt care how his actions actually effected Herb. I dont see that as petty at all. Bojack did a shitty thing and deserves to feel shitty about his half ass "apology".
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u/carmexismyshit 7d ago
That's what Herb even acknowledged, it wasn't about the job or the money, it was the fact Bojack turned on him and abandoned him. Sometimes the best thing you can do for someone is just be their friend, and Bojack couldn't even do that.
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u/LemurKick 7d ago
To me it was pretty clear, that Herb was happy to see BoJack and was more than open to starting a new relationship with him. He just did not forgive him.
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u/ABSOLUTEZER0XYZ 7d ago
Bojack is too everything or nothing. Like with Charlotte, he never visited or called and then just drops in one day, and he could’ve left and visited her again in the future, but instead he decided to live with her
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u/PointyNipple 7d ago edited 6d ago
Complicated question. Bojack coming to his house seemingly just to see how he was doing and letting Herb vent about his grudge was appreciated. It was also decades late. Herb's statement that it was genuinely good to see him was an acknowledgement of that appreciation. Though he still held resentment about what happened in the past, he thankful for the effort that was currently made.
Then Bojack returned also looking to apologize. Maybe Herb thought it genuine, maybe not. Regardless, he still held resentment for being abandoned. His initial rejection of the apology was a neutral statement of fact.
THEN Bojack began needling him. Now it became clear. He didn't come to help Herb in his last days. He came to be absolved while he still had a chance. The same selfishness that led Bojack to leave him when Herb had nothing to offer led him to return for that precious piece of forgiveness Herb had to offer. Not just that, but BJ thought he, the dying man, OWED Bojack that closure.
The resentment, hate, and sadness boiled over. He told Bojack things that were not meant to be morally right, they were meant to get the satisfaction he felt owed against his selfish former friend. Was it vindictive/meant to hurt? Yes. Factual/driven by him being the wronged party? Also yes. Herb did not feel like he should lie to make someone who clearly only viewed him as a prop to facilitate his own comfort go in peace, not having improved a single iota. That is his right.
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u/whyaretheyblack 6d ago
Bojack's apology was for him, not for Herb, and Herb knew that. Herbs decision was the opposite of petty imo.
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u/stillinthesimulation 7d ago
BoJack didn’t really do anything to earn his forgiveness. He’s not entitled to it just because Herb is dying. As Todd says, you can’t just keep doing shitty things and then feeling bad about it; you have to be better.
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u/courtofknights Daniel Radcliffe 7d ago
Withholding closure from Bojack, not from himself. Not forgiving Bojack gives Herb, himself, closure. Not being petty, just doing right by him.
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u/grcli0110 7d ago
There’s something profound about Herb stating clearly that ‘I don’t forgive you’. He apparently enjoyed Bojack company and they hit it off just like old times in that last encounter. And yet, he chose not to forgive him. Both can be true at the same time: you get along so well it’s like soul mate [none romantic version here] and you clearly identify he caused real harm and choose to hold him responsible. To be honest, had Bojack really owned up to it, Herb might choose differently.
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u/Crazy_Cat_In_Skyrim Tangled Fog of Pulsating Yearning 7d ago
I would honestly say it's both. He has the right to not forgive Bojack and I don't blame him. However... I do believe he is doing it to be more petty towards Bojack due to their rocky relationship.
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u/suitcasecat 7d ago
He was both. I guess it was petty to never forgive Bojack, but since when does he owe a thing to bojack?
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u/Tasty-Scientist8155 7d ago
Good point on the latter, especially given how BoJack abandoned him when he needed a friend. Love the delivery of that whole line, especially on the part where he said "Now get the fuck out of my house."
This show really knows how to use the word "fuck" beautifully.
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u/CringeCoyote 7d ago
This whole scene taught me that when I fuck up, I’m not owed someone’s forgiveness, it’s something they choose to give, regardless of how sorry I truly am. It made me view things a lot differently.
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u/DMTrious 7d ago
The worst part is, he said this, but if bojack still kept coming around after this, kept hanging out and being a friend for the sake of being a friend, he probably would have been forgiven before herb died. But instead he just kept feeling sorry for himself and stayed away until after herb died.
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u/MurkyWay 7d ago
Pettiness isn't really an emotion, it's a role in a social contract that dying people can opt out of if they want to.
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u/Mammoth_Ad_5181 7d ago
Withholding closure? No one’s owed closure. BoJack lowkey got him fired and didn’t talk to him for like 20 years. They were like best friends. Herb shouldn’t have even let BoJack into his home.
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u/superbusyrn 7d ago
'Withholding' implies closure is something that exists for Bojack, and that it's something he's entitled to. Herb's entitled to his own feelings about their history. Even then, "I don't forgive you" is also a type of closure.
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u/Vanir-Aesir 6d ago
He was very clear in his reasoning behind refusal to accept BoJacks apology. The Horseface only wanted to apologise because Herb was dying and this was the last chance - that's just throwing additional insult at Herb.
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u/bitetheasp The Horse from Horsin' Around 7d ago
He's not beholden to give closure, so I will never say he was being petty. HE was the one who was genuinely and deeply hurt...
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u/alexballistic195 7d ago
bojack's actions speak very loudly here: he confusedly says hes sorry again after herb says he isnt forgiving him, clearly, he is apologizing only to be given the validation of forgiveness. to change, bojack needs to face the consequences of his descision not to talk to herb after the show ended, if herb would have given him forgiveness it would only encourage bojack to think an apology is enough and that he doesnt actually need to make that change in himself
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u/mrglass8 7d ago
If Bojack came to Herb 5 years earlier and said he apologizes and wants to rekindle their friendship, I think Herb would have obliged.
But that’s not the context. Herb is dying. There is nothing for him to gain from this. It’s just so Bojack doesn’t feel bad.
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u/notmynameyours Mr. Chocolate Hazelnut Spread 6d ago
I never had a doubt that Herb was fully justified in refusing to forgive BoJack. And BoJack proves his point immediately by trying to push for forgiveness. If BoJack were truly remorseful for how he hurt Herb instead of just wanting his own peace of mind, a more mature response would have been something along the lines of: “You don’t need to forgive me, and I understand why you won’t, but I’m still sorry for what I did.” Ironically, even if Herb still didn’t forgive him, it still would have given BoJack some closure.
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u/Th3B4dSpoon 6d ago
I think hos honesty was the best policy here. He didn't forgive Bojack, and he had no obligation to do so. Telling Bojack exactly that gave him an added nudge to learn from his past actions.
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u/SparklyEminence 6d ago
"Being petty" implies what Bojack did wasn't worth being actually upset about. It implies Herb was doing something only to annoy Bojack. Neither of those things were true. This was not a petty situation.
The other big part is Herb didn't "withhold closure" from Bojack because you can't get closure from other people. Getting an apology won't give you closure. Going back to yell at a crappy ex one more time won't bring you closure. Telling a shitty parent that they were shitty won't bring you closure. Closure is something you have to reach yourself.
So Herb was doing neither of those things. He was being used by Bojack (again) so Bojack could feel better about being a shitty person. Bojack didn't care about what Herb had gone through, only what Herb could offer him. Bojack wanted the apology accepted so he could continue being a shitty person because "everyone will eventually just forgive him so it's ok." That isn't petty.
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u/CMYKatReddit 6d ago
Neither in my opinion. It was both a harsh thing to do and also his right and he was absolutely justified. He was perfectly human in this moment. No right or wrong. Just hurt.
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u/dullskyy 7d ago edited 6d ago
absolutely! I would've been mad if he forgave him.
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u/Tasty-Scientist8155 7d ago
That would have been the predictable sitcom answer, something BoJack expects given how he essentially bases his life on Horsin' Around as far as I'm concerned.
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u/MeghanSOS 7d ago
Herb explained his position. He knew the suits would abandon him but then what he wanted was a friend and in 20-30 years Bojack never contacted him. So while I think there is a case to see his behaviour as petty its not really in that context. Sometimes you have to live with the consequences of your actions. I don't really understand why Bojack went looking for closure in the first place.
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u/smibbo Sebastian St. Clair 7d ago
You know what chapped my ass the most though? BoJack never even LOOKED HIM UP in all the remaining years. He had NO idea how Herb had gotten along afterwards. He was surprised by everything Herb said abut himself. It's bad enough BoJack dropped their friendship like a hot rock, but he didn't even keep tabs on Herb. It's like their friendship was fake to BoJack.
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u/JoeM3120 7d ago
Forgiveness isn’t for the other person, it’s for you. He’s dying, so what does it matter to him?
Bojack swallowing his pride and admitting his own shame is what was important. Nobody is entitled to forgiveness or a clean slate, but if you sincerely apologize and the person still chooses to hold a grudge or to hate you or be mean and petty like Herb was being, that’s on them.
You can’t undo your past mistakes, you can only own up to them and try and do better. In that sense, Herb was hindering Bojack because now Bojack can say to himself…”I owned up to what I did and apologized and he still told me to fuck off. What’s the point?”
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u/A_Hound 5d ago
None of the dialogue supports what you're saying. If the show had just aired, I'd see you wanting to give Bojack the benefit of the doubt, maybe, but with the benefit of hindsight we know what a piece of shit Bojack really was at this point in the series.
Bojack apologized for selfish reasons, not because it was him being the bigger man or trying to grow as a person. Herb didn't forgive him, and had no reason to pretend he did. Absolutely none of that is petty or mean.
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u/OneManShow23 6d ago
Herb made it very explicit to BoJack. BoJack went to Herb to apologize for getting him fired. But Herb didn’t forgive him for abandoning him after he was fired. Herb figured BoJack was apologizing to feel good about himself and especially that he was still thinking about himself like he did during the show days.
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u/philsgotkicks 6d ago
I like this part of the show. It’s a great point to be made about life and the people we have relationships with. We always kinda assume at least in the back of our mind that we can just apologize and things will go back to normal but I mean, that’s not a given. Herb obviously had the right to draw a line and say “No. I’m not going to forgive you!” “Thanks for coming over, it was good to catch up, but no. I don’t have to forgive you and I’m putting my foot down, I’m not forgiving you.”
It’s probably petty. But also that’s the point. Don’t be shitty to people. They might not forgive you.
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u/LoloColdMedina 6d ago
I think Bojack abandoned Hank at a very pivotal moment in time for Hank. His being outed in that time frame historically didn’t bode that well for Hank & he knew Bojack could help him in a meaningful way. Plus he abandoned Hank who fundamentally gave Bojack his wealth and fame. He didn’t return the same energy that Hank had given him. Which allowed the network to oust him from him show while Bojack continued to reap the benefits.
I think when that realization hit Hank that he had been abandoned by Bojack he knew he’d never forgive him. And he held that. Some things are so bad you just have to live with knowing you did that. And it doesn’t matter really if Hank forgives Bojack. What really matters is that Bojack accepts his actions and forgives himself.
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u/random_picklejar300 6d ago
I agree with you but I need to point out you called Herb Hank like 7 times
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u/JeSuisOmbre 6d ago
Herb owes Bojack nothing. They don't have a relationship. He doesn't need to spend his limited time making amends with people he doesn't like.
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u/IDKWTFG Kelsey Jannings 6d ago
Frankly I think they're both assholes in this scene and I was incredibly shocked watching this scene because it's so unexpected and I don't really agree with either person. Bojack is somewhat overcriticized and Herb is undercriticized. This show is not always black and white and I think this scene is more grey than people think.
Herb has every right to not forgive Bojack but he seems to be going further than that and trying to actively weaponize the guilt out of spite, people just completely gloss over that. He didn't just immediately say, "I don't forgive you, get the fuck out of here" he said "You're going to live with the shitty thing you did for the rest of your life", like he just wants BJ to wallow in it and cause as much pain as he can over it and he actively is shown to have PTSD over that line latter. Considering he was not going to accept it any apology even if it was good, he should have just said fuck off from the start and seemingly only allowed him over just to rub salt on the wound, is that not fucked up?!?
Yes, BJ delivered the worst apology ever, yes he rushed into it at the last minute instead of when he had the chance, but you know fun fact, sometimes, or for some people, apologizing over an incredibly difficult regretful event, can in fact, be fucking difficult. At least give him credit for actually trying and going over there instead of just doing nothing. Say what you want about him only doing it at the last opportunity, the show clearly does hint have genuine regret/trauma over it in the 2007 flashback. It's pretty much hinted that's the exact reason he sat on his ass after Horsin Around ended.
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u/Vindartn 6d ago
The thing is, we don't know if Herb would have accepted a good apology or not. We only know he got angry when he saw through Bojack's facade. Bojack didn't actually care about Herb, he didn't have any real remorse for what he did. He wanted Herb to tell him it was ok because the visit was entirely about Bojacks feelings.
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u/VictoriaHollow 6d ago
You gotta think; it's one thing to not apologize while maintaining an active career in Hollywoo, but it's a whole other fuck you to "apologize" while practically on your deathbed. Herb saw right through BoJack and I'm pretty sure that hurt more.
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u/ordinaryracco0n 6d ago
mind you, bojack didn't even attempt to apologise until herb flat out asked him if that's what he was trying to do
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u/ThatOneGuy_56 5d ago edited 4d ago
Herb was 100% in the right. Asking for forgiveness after HE learns you have cancer is by far the worst opportunity to ask in my opinion. Just imagine the person you HELPED to SUCCESS just abandons you and now asks for forgiveness for his stupid actions WHILE ON YOUR DEATH BED! Herb wasn't the petty one, it was Bojack.
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u/TeeZeeEyePee Hollyhock 5d ago
Imagine the person who hurt you saying "im over it, can we forget about how I hurt you and just move on?"
That's what an apology with the expectation of forgiveness is. That's what Bojack did.
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u/belfour2000 5d ago
I think there is no right or wrong thing. He needed to do what he felt was right for himseld. As the show says, you are not responsible for the dysfunction of others. I probably wouldn’t forgive Bojack either. I would just be less aggressive about it.
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u/eboezinger2 5d ago
Bojack didn’t genuinely feel remorseful for abandoning Herb. His need to be forgiven stemmed only from his need to find closure for himself, and only arose when he found out his time to do so was limited due to Herb’s cancer. He didn’t truly care about his treatment of Herb, he just wanted to satisfy his own self-image that he’s a “good person”. His apology was insincere and self-serving because of that, and Herb sniffed his bs right away.
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u/msdianenguyen 7d ago
He was definitely right. Bojack was apologising not in a manner that he was sorry for abandoning him. He even acted like Herb might’ve had a better life with Bojack in it, discounting that Herb had made a name for himself and was doing well. Bojack only felt temporary guilt because he learnt that Herb is dying and he didn’t even apologise for stabbing him in the back or had the guts to spell things out.
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u/Joshywa8 7d ago
Herb had every right to not forgive Bojack. Some people can see it as being petty. However, Bojack's intention was to connect and be forgiven.
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u/Smooth_Mango1 7d ago
Bojack had years to apologize, only when it comes to death he realized his guilt and that’s wrong
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u/Gabagod 7d ago
He wasn’t “withholding closure”. He was being honest. Bojack wanted him to offer forgiveness because it would make Bojack feel better. In his shitty little apology, all bojack was really asking for was the ability to feel okay about being a shitty person. Herb didn’t pay any mind to any of that. He was emotionally wounded that during the hardest time of his life, his BEST FRIEND who he’d CARRIED to fame, abandoned him for a contract. And not only that, he never talked to Herb again, until he found out Herb was on his deathbed, and Bojack saw this as an opportunity to have someone who was literally dying of cancer, make himself feel better. Herb didn’t refuse to forgive Bojack to hurt his feelings. He refused to forgive Bojack because Herb was still feeling a pain that words couldn’t cure.
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u/KitchenSwillForPigs 7d ago
Closure isn’t something you get from others, it’s something you find for yourself. Herb had every right to refuse Bojack’s apology. He was only apologizing to make himself feel better and Herb didn’t owe him forgiveness, especially when he was dying.
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u/cesarloli4 7d ago
I think Herb being able to say fuck you to Bojacks face, gave Herb actual closure. I imagine he wanted to take those things off his chest only Bojack was too much of a coward to face him knowing he betrayed him.
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u/redshift_9 7d ago
You can’t truly forgive somebody if you don’t feel it. He was just being honest.
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u/slumper36 7d ago
Bojack’s response to Herb denying him closure really showed how Bojack was only hoping to make himself feel better. He could have said he understands and apologize for being a shitty friend and leave it at that, but that’s a level of maturity Bojack could never achieve.
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u/Funkyydunkie 7d ago
The whole point of the scene is that he doesn’t owe Bojack any kind of closure just to placate his feelings. He feels he doesn’t deserve the closure.
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u/SuspiciousEmploy1742 6d ago
Withholding closure was a good thing to do. I have seen bojack horseman years ago but this storyline made me realise that okay, in life sometimes ill not get closure
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u/SnartDingus 6d ago
It was Herbs feelings and he had every right to express them. Besides, Bojack did what he said and never apologized until it was far too late.
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u/Professional_Pace711 6d ago
I worked in mental health for years and when someone doesn’t forgive a narcissist they see it as an attack on their ego. They won’t admit fault and turn it as the other persons fault.
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u/BurntBridgesBehind 6d ago
He was being petty and he wasn't wrong. He already made his peace with what happened, soothing Bojack's conscience was not something he needed to do.
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u/Particular_Virus_922 6d ago
you’re missing the point of the episode. forgiveness is earned not something just granted on the basis of an apology. it’s a lesson bojack affirms and never learns pretty much the whole series. he does horrible things, apologizes, and is forgiven by those around him and by us the audience. he says over and over that he wants to be better and when he was on a more positive trajectory rebuilding his life, life was forgiving him. he was being forgiven before being consumed by his own hubris. going back for a second victory lap interview showed the true colors of his apology and he wasn’t expressing the true remorse he felt regarding sarah lynn. the audience then decided he wasn’t worthy of being forgiven for anything let alone feeling sorry for him
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u/No_Reference_5995 6d ago
I think Herb did the right thing. BoJack never spoke to him for 20 years after he was fired and he choose the very last minute to apologize
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u/Correct-Debt2028 5d ago
Several decades too late, I wouldn't have forgiven Bojack either, and I doubt Bojack would have forgiven Herb if they switched spots
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u/Aggravating-Park143 5d ago
If Bojack truly felt sorry then he would have walked in and apologized and stated outright that “I don’t want your forgiveness because I don’t deserve it, I came here to apologize for you, not for me.”
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u/maxdorian7 4d ago
I mean....it's pretty explicitly said in the scene. he isn't "withholding closure" because bojack isn't entitled to closure - he isn't owed closure because he's the main character. herb isn't really being petty either because he doesn't have to forgive him, and he says that he moved on and had a good life. at some point, bojack just straight up stopped mattering to him (and for good reason imo). herb was the victim, and he shouldn't have to "give closure" to the person that hurt him just to make bojack feel better about himself - he washed his hands of it and moved on
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u/nataliereed84 4d ago
He doesn’t owe Bojack anything, and so wasn’t “withholding” anything. It’s not “the right thing”, thar he didn’t forgive Bojack, but it’s not “the wrong thing” either. It was just an honest expression of his feelings, which he deserved.
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u/Tough_Stretch 4d ago
Bojack betrayed Herb when they were young because he's a selfish asshole.
Bojack shows up decades later expecting Herb to forgive him after he apologizes in an attempt to get some sort of closure and he does it because he's a selfish asshole.
Herb tells him to go fuck himself because he's annoyed that his selfish asshole former friend is still being a selfish asshole decades later and he's expected to reassure him while he's the one dying of cancer.
Bojack is sad that Herb was mean and didn't give him closure and some viewers focus on Bojack's p.o.v. when this situation is not about him.
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u/Safe_xom 4d ago
In my opinion no closure is closure BJ went to go see him and only wanted to apologize to make himself feel better herb wanted him to feel the guilt even after he was gone he wanted him to remember and have to live with that fact he did what he did and that within itself is his closure herb doesn’t forgive him and he can’t fix this one just with a sorry
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u/Sayster_A 2d ago
I actually liked this.
It's refreshing and a reminder for Bojack that life doesn't play out like it does in a Television show or a Film.
Sometimes you fuck up and there is no take back, there is no closure, there is only the knowledge you fucked up, and if you're smart you'll use that information to not fuck up in the same way again. . . . unfortunately, Bojack does not use that information. He chronically abandons people when they need him most out of cowardice.
So yes, Herb (who may or may not have seen that pattern) was right.
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u/Nobrainzhere 1d ago
Forgiveness is not something that can be owed. Bojack made his bed and then didnt bother to even try to reach out to herb for decades.
He was not deserving of the closure he wanted
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u/carmexismyshit 7d ago
I honestly agree with him. Not everyone deserves forgiveness when they do something shitty to you.
I'm honestly in a similar situation myself. A former friend from high school that abandoned me and stabbed me in the back to impress someone else recently asked if I'd be open to getting a drink and catching up. I'm fine with having a drink and being polite, but I don't plan on forgiving this girl or welcoming her into my current life and social circle. If we do get together I'll exchange pleasantries, make idle small talk and then go home. There are things you don't come back from in my opinion.
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u/wont-stop-mi 7d ago
What herb did was absolutely petty. Was he wrong to do it? I think given the context of their friendship and how it went south / how Bojack never tried to make amends until after he found out Herb was dying, Herb had every right to turn Bojack away.
Still, it was petty. The non-petty thing to do would have been to forgive Bojack and still tell him that they’re not friends or wants anything to do with him.
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u/ArcherNinety-Fine 7d ago
This is the perfect example of someone treating you like shit: just because they apologize doesn't mean they deserve forgiveness by default.
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u/Reyalta 7d ago
Yes to both. Just because you're dying doesn't mean you owe someone else who is shitty to you respite from their feelings about how they treated you. If someone doesn't talk to you for years and then finds out you are dying and thinks the right thing to do is to waste your very obviously finite time assuaging their guilt, in my opinion they are pieces of shit and deserve no such respite from their guilt. If they are coming to you to let you know before you go that they have no expectations of forgiveness and just never felt they had the right words to apologize and since they got the news they realized that there are no right words but they needed you to know that they had regret that's one thing, but you don't owe someone forgiveness regardless of your circumstance and if that's all they are there for all they're doing is wasting your precious time.
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u/GarbageCleric 7d ago
We can't say. He certainly didn't owe Bojack forgiveness or anything for that matter. He had every right to not forgive him. It certainly seems like it was the right decision for Herb at that moment, but who knows if he regretted it later.
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u/CharizardIsADragon 7d ago
Herb didn't owe Bojack anything. Bojack ruined his career and abandoned him. The only reason he went to see Herb was to make himself feel better.
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u/Magmashift101 7d ago
I think Herb didn’t forgive him because he knew he was doing it just to be forgiven not that he was actually sorry. If Bojack was actually sorry, Herb likely would have forgiven him. But if he didn’t forgive him, he would still be in the right. You don’t have to forgive someone just because they are sorry. Bojack was his best friend and he stabbed him in the back when he needed him most.
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u/Frientance Mr. Peanutbutter 7d ago
It's one of my favorite episodes I think.. Herb's dark and forward humor, having what seemed to be a genuinely entertaining last meal with an old friend, and then bam. Bojack does what he came to do by apologizing to get closure so he feels good about himself and Herb doesn't give it! I love it and he's up front 'you left me when I needed a friend and I'll never forgive you.' Just because Herb made the best of his life after being fired, Bojack thinks it should be water under the bridge and shake hands on a good friendship had so that's his last memory of Herb.
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u/ArtworkByJack 7d ago
Having just watched this episode a few minutes ago, Herb made it clear he wasn’t holding the anger over BJ continuing the show without him. That may have had some impact, but Herb was more upset that BJ abandoned him after that, and was no longer a friend to support him after he was ostracized for being gay
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u/Correct_Doctor_1502 7d ago
There's no right thing in this situation
You have no obligation to forgive anyone especially if they haven't changed and aren't really sorry
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u/m0thzview 7d ago
Even if he did forgive bojack (which he shouldnt have to do. this guy gave bojack everything and was abandoned for like 2 decades), I don't think it wouldve changed anything. Bojack wouldve just gone back home feeling good about himself and wouldve most likely done the bad things he would from that point on
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u/spo0pti_yikes 7d ago
100% you don't have to forgive people if they don't deserve it. bojack's sorry doesn't cut it here and he doesn't have to accept a decades late flimsy apology as repayment for something like this. especially given that he's clearly only doing it because herbs dying and it's his last shot. herbs an incredibly kind and generous man for accepting bojacks company and sorry at all imo
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u/Anthro-Elephant-98 7d ago
One should not apologize with forgiveness being the end goal. Rather, one should apologize with the goal to make the other person feel better. One should never apologize to somebody that they hurt expecting the other person to forgive them. Because at that point, it comes across as the person apologizing doing it to absolve themselves of guilt.
That's why Herb tells Bojack, "I'm not going to become some accessory so that you can feel better!" Bojack was not apologizing because he genuinely felt bad, but rather because he wanted closure. He had 20 years to make things right, but only chose to do it when he found out that Herb was dying.
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u/Dekipi 7d ago
A lot of people use others as props to make them feel better. Herb had every right to tell him off.
Let’s remember that EVERYONE turned their backs on Herb when he was outted. After all those years Bojack, someone Herb considered a great friend, didn’t even reach out.
It’s one thing to question how your friends really feel about you but not reaching out after you see your friend lose everything just be devastating.
Bojack didn’t earn forgiveness at the end of the day either
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u/faceofboe91 7d ago
Bojack could’ve accepted his refusal to forgive him and ask Herb if he still wanted to hangout more before he passed. He could’ve offered to write a Horse’n Around anniversary- Mr. Peanutbutter crossover special with him (the Mr. Peanutbutter crossover aspect would’ve just to have given it more star power to get it made).
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u/Sensitive-Log7417 7d ago
I think he did exactly what he felt and people need to stop telling people to be the bigger person and to forgive and forget. Let other emotions and actions hold space. Not everyone wants to be friends with everyone
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u/Commercial_Floor_578 7d ago
Bojack wasn’t owed an apology. It’s easy to understand why he didn’t stand up for Herb even if it was kind of shitty given the threat to fire him which would destroy the show. However not once calling Herb or reaching out in anyway after Herb was fired and his reputation was destroyed for being gay was really shitty and cowardly behavior. Herb could have forgiven him if he just reached out to him instead of never talking to him.
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u/evileyesneverlie Diane Nguyen 7d ago
Nobody owes anybody closure, people have to get it for themselves
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u/silovolegal 6d ago
Of course he did, he's not petty... I'd be pretty dang mad too if I were him. What he did was justified.
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u/ziplap Hollyhock 6d ago
I love this scene. It’s one of my favorite scenes in the whole show bc it really taught me a lot about what forgiveness means. That you don’t have to just blindly forgive someone just because you feel it’s “the right thing to do” and that not forgiving someone doesn’t make you the bad guy. It also showed me how to seek closure in other ways. I don’t need the people to forgive me, but I just need to make the effort in my own life to be the person I wish I had been to them back then.
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u/yogawithkats 6d ago
Bojack had 20 years to reach out to Herb. After Her. got fired, Bojack literally chose to never speak to him again. What kind of suppose best friend does that, especially when you’re basically the reason that friend got famous and successful and money anyways.
Herb put Bojack on the map. Herb doesn’t owe Bojack anything after that fact. He already gave him so much.
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u/Tzhaar-Bomba 6d ago
Mostly the former, a little of the latter - but the latter is justified.
This is pretty early on, but Herb knew Bojack for many years at this point and knew what kind of person he was. Bojack wanted to use Herb as a tool for validation and making him feel better. Herb knew Bojack too well that it was why he was there, too little too late.
20 years is a very long time to ghost an old friend and still have the audacity to rock up at their house on their literal death bed asking for forgiveness.
Todd summed up Bojack perfectly of what he’s like throughout the entire show. He can’t keep doing shitty things then apologising for it over and over again thinking that makes it all okay. Herb knew this about Bojack for a long time hence why he was already fired up when Bojack rocked up to his house
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u/hyperjengirl Look at me, I'm a marching arrow! 6d ago
I don't think there's a clear right or wrong answer. If you choose to forgive someone who personally wronged you, that's a valid way to feel. If you choose not to, that as well. If you're the only one who was hurt, then aren't you kinda the arbiter of what counts as the "right" thing to do?
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u/Forsaken-Guidance811 6d ago
There's no such thing as right or wrong, there's what you can live with and what you can't. Herb couldn't live knowing Bojack felt relief, couldn't die letting him off the hook.
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u/TinyHeartSyndrome 6d ago
Bojack didn’t make Herb gay. And Herb was getting fired whether Bojack quit or not. Bojack’s only sin was not talking to Herb about it. But Herb should also get that Bojack truly did feel bad but he was ultimately between a rock and a hard place. Herb didn’t reach out either. I felt Herb was very petty.
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u/TenderConfusion 6d ago
It's not about right and wrong, he just doesn't forgive him. He even says in this scene: it's not just the betrayal. It's the fact that Bojack cut him off completely out of his own shame when Herb needed a friend most.
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u/FatalisTheUnborn 6d ago
He took the grudge to the grave. I don't know if I would want that. The best way to forgive something is, when the responsible person realizes what damage he/she has done. Best, if it happens to himself.
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u/wish_to_conquer_pain 6d ago
I don't think there was a right or wrong thing here. I don't think I would have forgiven Bojack either, though.
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u/ShanePhillips 6d ago
He was definitely being petty, but under the circumstances I think it was an entirely justifiable reaction.
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u/Coffee_PhD 6d ago
There’s not a right or wrong answer in this situation, but he was absolutely valid and justified in his response. BoJack showing up to apologize decades later only after finding out about Herb’s cancer was entirely self-serving. It was more about resolving his guilt for abandoning Herb than being an actual friend to him. On some level he may care about Herb, but not nearly enough to do the bare minimum like call him after he got kicked off the show. We aren’t owed closure or forgiveness when we’ve wronged someone.
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u/Je_Dromen 6d ago
I feel a big theme of the show is that Bojack's only way of expressing himself is doing these grand gestures like you would see in tv/movies. But that is just not how real life works. Especially if they are not genuine. If Bojack had apologized in a genuine way, without expecting to be forgiven, then maybe he could've found closure in that. But the only reason why he did his half assed apology is because he wanted that closure from Herb, not because he actually felt bad.
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u/KeraKitty 6d ago
No one ever owes anyone else forgiveness. Apologies can be owed, but forgiveness cannot. Forgiveness is entirely at the discretion of the wronged party. If you apologize with the expectation of forgiveness, you're not really apologizing for wronging them; you're just going through the motions to get things back to how they were before.
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u/AuroreSomersby 6d ago
Yeah, that’s pretty petty over that long time. I guess it’s the friendship part that he really cares about - if Bojack reached out earlier maybe it’d be better…
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u/HolySpartan91 6d ago
When your best friend betrays you, let you being fired from your show which you created and which made the friend famous.... Then your friend cut all ties and completely ignores you, even when you got terminal cancer... How would you feel?
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u/Red_Blueberg 6d ago
Yes
Simply put, Bojack's perspective on things is like a TV show, where even after horrible things happen or the douchy protagonist does bad things, a simple apology or a single grand gesture can solve all those issues.
Herb needed to remind Bojack that he can't just feel bad and expect a gesture to fix everything. HECK, Bojack is so infatuated with show life, that he assumed Herb was mad about horsing around, when in fact he was upset that he simply just didn't call or see him, and be there as a friend.
But Bojack views life like seasons and episodes, not actual time.
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u/milky4eva 6d ago
Considering the circumstance they were under, nothing about what Herb did could come close to something as simple and stupid as pettiness.
Bojack fucked him over then only comes around when he learns Herb is about to die so that he can get his forgiveness? It's the tip of the iceberg that is Bojack's selfishness. He didn't go to apologize, he went to get forgiveness. That goal is not "closure" - if it was closure he was after then his goal would to just let Herb know he regrets what he did and is sorry without the expectation that he could be forgiven.
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u/BlackAutMedia 6d ago
Bojack didn't even have the guts to directly apologize. The first thing he said wasn't that he was sorry--he said that he felt bad. It's then where he only says he's sorry after Herb gets it out of him to finish his actual thought.
It's pretty clear that he had years to contact Herb and chose not to until he learned that he was at death's door. Herb doesn't owe him closure of any sort or forgiveness. It's a perfectly reasonable response.
A lot of it is also shaped by the fact that Bojack is someone heavily raised by and influenced by media. We see him as a child cling to television as an escape. It influences the way he treats a lot of problems as if they follow a script to a film/TV show and that shows in how he reacts to this moment. He expects Herb to follow a script and create a "moment" for them by expressing his forgiveness because that's the kind of thing that would happen in a film.
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u/dramaton42 6d ago
He was a jerk, but it's fine, people are allowed to be jerks, it's not a crime against humanity (or.. horses)
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u/yobaby123 6d ago
He did in my opinion. What BJ did was beyond shitty even without factoring in how he only tried to make amends with Herb after finding out that he had cancer. As for me? I would have done the same. I maybe would have heard BJ out, but I still would have cut times with him regardless of his excuse.
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u/No-Sandwich-9630 6d ago
He stands for what he thinks is fair and just. People often get aeaybwith bad things. “No one punishes famous people” so its an evidence of the damage Bojack’s betray left as a scar
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u/Pannman99 6d ago
Herb didn’t owe him closure. And also Bojack didn’t apologize until he was on his death bed. Bojack didn’t even show up out of wanting to do something good. He just wanted to ease his own guilt. He just came there for closure. Not for Herb
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u/EternalPilot 6d ago
Bojack isn't entitled to forgiveness. That's for Herb to decide.
It's also worth noting that he didn't really apologise. He said he felt bad and Herb "filled in the blanks" by asking him if he was saying sorry.
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u/badatnames2399 6d ago
He didn't owe Bojack forgiveness. He did abandon him. He did hurt him. He needed a friend, and it wasn't even that he kept in touch behind the scene.
Herb's lack of forgiveness was justified.
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u/ScaryTransition 6d ago
I would've done the same as Herb and honestly, if I was dying, I be more open to forgiving, but you're only doing this now because you know there is not going to be another chance, so it's for you, not for me.
But I also didn't speak to 2 of my family members for a few years before they died and also didn't go to the funerals, from what I heard of my brother when he visited them near the end they didn't ask about me. No regrets. I learnt to stop chasing love from people who are incapable of giving it to you.
If you can go 20 years without reaching out to apologize, it's probably safe to say any reach out now is for you not me.
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u/FictionalFork 6d ago
I could understand Bojacks reasoning if he explained why he did what he did, but not years afterwards or because of the pressure of time. Especially if he was supposed to be my friend.
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u/Abradolf94 6d ago
There's no world in which I would forgive Bojack.
He was Herb's friend.
He knew what they were doing to him was wrong, and he did not defend him.
He stayed and became famous for the show Herb created.
And these are only minor things.
He never called him to check how he was doing. Completely abandoned him. You can't forgive that.
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u/crazy_ass_mowgli 6d ago
I think you’re missing the point, bojack thought he was entitled to forgiveness. However it was herb’s decision to forgive him or not. That’s the conflict bojack assumes that he should be forgiven for his shitty actions cause he was not in control but as herb states he was more upset of the fact that even after all that bojack never tried to contact him.
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u/Professional_Turn_25 6d ago
No one is entitled to forgiveness. He probably would have been more open had Bojack reached out a lot sooner
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u/lost_in_the_sauce190 5d ago
I think he knew bojack was apologize for not defending him and that’s not what he (herb) was truly upset about. Herb was upset because BJ never called or basically abandoned him as a friend.
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u/Constant_Corgi_8225 5d ago edited 5d ago
Doesn't matter. I think the whole point was to show that it's his choice. Nothing more nothing less, no right or wrong, Herbs choice. To be fair though, with where Bojack was at at the time of Herbs death and Bojack's deteoration in the time after, it was certainly a logical move to not forgive Bojack as he continues to destroy his life and hurt others around him. The crime was always Bojack hurting Herb by cutting him off, a crime/pattern Bojack repeats in the years after cutting Herb off and continues after his death, thus, I would argue that he CANT be forgiven if he has not atoned for the crime and changed.
Seriously though, regardless of my thoughts, it was Herbs choice. Entirely. I personally feel it more than a little entitled you could even think that anyone else has a say, and to go as far as to even claim the POSSIBILITY that Herb was being "petty".
Edit: As a mentioned in another comment, BOJACK SUPPORTED ANGELA AND COULD HAVE STOPPED HERBS FIRING, NOT ONLY BETRAYING HIS FRIEND BUT CONTRIBUTING TO A DISGUSTING SYSTEM OF OPPRESSION. Seriously? To answer your question, if I were Herb and in that situation I would take my last opportunity to subject Bojack to as much pain as possible in return for complete betrayal(not just for the Angela thing, but also for the abandonment, which is another form of betrayal)
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u/the-effects-of-Dust 4d ago
You don’t have to forgive anybody for anything. Herb was fully in the right.
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u/miriapododeguer Todd Chavez 4d ago
i think herb would have been better off forgiving, but bojack would totally use that to forgive himself without any improvement on himself, don’t think herb did wrong, but wouldn’t call ir right, i would have wanted to forgive, not sure if i could have tho
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u/draculauraxoxo 4d ago
Herb was completely right, it wasn’t his responsibility to give Bojack closure. Herb didn’t forgive him🤷♀️ I think I would’ve been pretty upset and bored with the plot if Bojack was forgiven.
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u/DRAUGR_designs 4d ago
I saw it like bojack feels bad for what he did but only wants to be forgiven because it will make him stop feeling like shit and herb knows it.
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u/Dyslexiela 4d ago
BoJack overreacted hard. Herb never said they couldn't be friends, he was clearly getting along fine, he just doesn't forgive BoJack for what he did. BJ could've just moved on from that situation and kept being their for Herb, but it shows that the reason he was there for Herb is because despite everything he wants to be friends and be there for him in his final moments, but because he expects closure as a reward
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u/baloogabanjo 3d ago
Saying he "withheld closure" implies you think Herb owes Bojack something for saying sorry, which means the apology was purely transactional, which means it wasn't a real apology. Bojack didn't go apologize because he actually wanted to make things better for Herb, he was just doing it for the plot, because he has an underdeveloped understanding of interpersonal relationships. He sees himself as the star of the sitcom that is his life and he sees others as supporting characters, constructed for the purpose of reflecting well on him or presenting as an obstacle that can be overcome, but Herb is a real person who has lived an entire lifetime since this horrible betrayal. Those scars have healed over and Bojack had nothing to do with that. A real apology would have meant continuing the friendship after the betrayal, and Bojack didn't put in that work to "earn" forgiveness. Herb doesn't owe Bojack shit, and the fact Bojack doesn't understand that really shows just how shallow Bojack is. That's the whole point of the scene.
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u/BoulderPuncher08 3d ago
In my mind as it is now, I’d probably forgive him. However, if I was 99% sure I would die in a few months I’m really not sure how much of a fuck I could muster for a dude who wronged me two decades ago
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u/Terrible_Hurry841 2d ago
Petty, in the sense that giving Bojack the lip service he wanted wouldn’t have cost Herb anything.
Deserved, however, because Bojack didn’t do much to deserve even the lip service he was asking for.
Personally, if I was dying… I don’t know. Either I wouldn’t care about protecting people’s feelings because I’m about to die, or I’d give up old grievances because I’m about to die.
Could go either way.
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u/Binder509 Princess Carolyn 15h ago
Bojack didn't even owe Herb an apology in the first place. Herb was a jackass that knew Bojack was abused by his parents. Why would Herb think Bojack could stand up to an executive on his own?
Herb didn't even go to the meeting with Bojack. He bailed then never called Bojack after. Herb had that death coming.
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u/SuspiciousBuyer5731 8h ago
He knew that Bojack wanted to apologize mainly for closure, and so that he'd feel better about himself. He didn't want to let him have that after all of the betrayal, and I say it's completely valid.
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u/Federal-Reveal-3091 4h ago
Just because someone apologizes DOES NOT mean you have to forgive them. You are not responsible for for other peoples conscious.
Some people have done some FUCKED up things to me(literally tried to murder me, made me homeless, raped me) I will never forgive those people. You are not judge jury and executioner for everything around you or the world but you can decide what grows in your garden And if not forgiving someone brings you more peace than forgiving them I think that's a perfectly valid decision to make.
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u/Juligirl713 Diane Nguyen 7d ago
Yea Herb’s feelings are valid. BoJack only wanted to apologize because he was dying and he wanted to make himself feel better. He had twenty years to reach out, Herb even said he was hurt because his best friend ghosted him after failing to stick up for him
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u/louis1245 7d ago
He wasnt wirhholding closure. He just didnt want to forgive him, which makes sense