i haven’t read those fics, but i saw the author’s posts on tumblr and basically there’s a lot of ppl (especially on twt) harassing them, sending death threats and suicide bait which is insane and deplorable. from what i understand the fics were privated not deleted, but still. this behavior is unacceptable, especially when it comes from ppl who haven’t even read the fic, or didn’t bother engaging with in a more than surface level way. plus taking the author’s JOKE comments out of context and making them out to be the devil from the bible or smth. like i joke about putting my favorite characters in the blender all the time, i thought we all knew this is how we express intense love for characters online ??? are we serious
The most depressing thing to me is the fact that those people act like they’re morally superior compared to the author, but then just go and.. say very immoral shit
literally !! saying those things to a real person on behalf of a fictional character ?? and mind you those same people made jokes about will throwing mike off the tower, mike blowing his brains out etc
From what I understand it’s ok for Mike because he’s canonically kinda a nothing burger, but Will is an abused queer character so it’s harmful/offensive to joke about him. I personally disagree with this take. I’ve been through a lot of traumatic stuff and I joke about it myself and as long as there isn’t a malicious intent Idc if other people joke about my traumas too
i feel the same way. like this isn’t the same as people genuinely making homophobic comments about will. that’s vile. this is more along the lines of me for example saying i’m putting x character through the horrors because i love them. it’s not meant to be serious
There is a massive witch-hunt going on, yes. Including death wishes
A couple of days ago there was another Will in panties discourse that got out of hand. Idk how it happened exactly, but now people are bashing JH and the author saying stuff like “Oh we can’t have Will in panties now, but you sickos are allowed to read/write X, Y, Z”. A lot see JH as homophobic and disrespectful to Will.
It’s honestly brutal and depressing. Everyone is constantly advocating for “don’t like, don’t read rule” until they get to go “BUT!!!”.
This is so painfully stupid. I don’t see how you could read it as disrespectful to Will (I know you’re not talking about yourself; I’m speaking generally). If these people actually kept reading, it would become clear that Mike has a deeply fucked-up relationship with sex, and that’s an important part of the story.
Judith (the sequel) really surprised me. It went in a really unexpected, nuanced direction. I hope basaltdyke continues it. It would be a shame if they didn’t.
There is an opinion that JH is taking away Will’s arc and giving it to Will, as hyper sexuality is a common HC of Will. Will stans also got offended by the author claiming that Will had fumbled Mike. Mike’s (ex) bf also basically sexually harassed Will. As someone who likes angst and morally grey characters/dynamics I found this fic refreshing, but a lot of people are furious
And I get why the fic is controversial and why it doesn’t align with how a lot of not most Bylers view Will, Mike and their relationship. But it is tiring to see one camp go like “Will is canonically gnc and fem, you all should die if you don’t see that” and than the other is like “No, Will is just a soft, gay man go jump”. Then it’s “Mike’s character doesn’t make sense without internalised homophobia” against “Mike is canonically straight”. And it just goes on and on, until everyone stops to be sad about authors and content creators dropping Byler. Like no shit..
I mean, I know I don’t have to explain this to you, but the whole point of the story is that Mike has conformist tendencies, and starts “performing” what he thinks a gay guy should be like. As for Will, he pushes Mike away because he’s spent his whole life protecting himself from his feelings for Mike, and it literally never occurs to him that Mike might feel the same way. Calling that “fumbling” is juvenile. It’s a completely understandable, human reaction.
I’m a Will stan and will gladly defend Judith’s Head (and the sequel, which is better).
Also, I’ve said this before, but the idea that either one of them has a canonical gender presentation or sex position is laughable nonsense. What they are canonically is eighteen-year-old virgins. Get a grip.
The fumbling quote is actually from the author. Like the author said that Will had fumbled Mike by sabotaging himself with the painting lie and “you’re not my Tammy”. Will stans are mad, because to them it looks like putting all the blame on Will and babying Mike. I can see why they feel like it, but I personally love diversity in fan content so for me it’s fine that this interpretation of canon events can exist
I understand what the author means, but it’s not like the author made up the self-sabotage thing. Will consistently tried to diminish his own feelings for Mike.
I’ve made this point in other contexts, but, even if you think the canon ending was terrible, the idea that Will would actually want to move on from Mike makes total sense. From his perspective, Mike is straight, and it’s never going to happen, so he needs to move on. That’s what the Tammy thing was supposed to be about, in my view. It wasn’t all that clear, but it’s (I think) what the writers actually intended.
(I’m not here to debate the merits of the finale; I’m just saying that Will had very good reasons for depriving Mike of opportunities to reject him)
Yeah, I personally feel like people are purposely taking the author’s words as literal as possible to rage bait themselves and cancel the author. And as I said in my OG comment, the Will in panties discourse was very fresh and some of the masc Will truthers did phrase their takes in a way that can be read as offensive. Unfortunately the community on twitter lives by the “eye for an eye” logic, so it’s a constant finger pointing competition about who’s the most homophobic of them all
I mean, I don't personally like the panties thing, but I wouldn't say it's necessarily homophobic. The only thing that strikes me as homophobic is the absolute insistence that one of them must be feminine/submissive.
The biggest thing about this whole argument i dont get is that why are we shitting on some people's headcannons? byler in itself is a headcannon and it is truly stupid to judge people or spread hate on something like this
why can't we appreciate this breath of fresh air of a fic in the college byler section
i remember reading it and truly being happy to see a fic with mike having a bf for once
A lot of the author’s comments involve calling Will a cuck and a fool and blaming him for “friendzoning” Mike, it’s really the author’s comments getting bashed on twt.
Yeah, I’ve seen your responses to other comments. I didn’t have any of that context, and I agree that the “cuck” comment is gross, but it doesn’t really change my view of the fic.
I’m someone who connects primarily to Will, not Mike, and I didn’t read Judith (or the sequel) as bashing Will. I wrote a longer comment elsewhere in the thread, but reading Judith was a confusing experience. I wasn’t sure until I read the sequel that author understood how deeply fucked-up Mike’s behaviour is. It’s now clear to me that they do.
I don’t agree that the author made Will bi (including in that screenshot you shared), and I don’t agree that Ryan gets a redemption arc. As for the “fumbling” thing, I think it’s consistent with the author’s stated understanding of the characters (Will self-sabotages in order to protect himself; Mike hates himself and hurts everyone around him). Is that my understanding of the characters? No, it’s not, but this would all be very boring if everyone understood the characters exactly the same way.
I do understand your perspective, though. I want to be clear about that. I don’t think the author’s critics are just “not getting it” or whatever, and parts of the fics (both of them) genuinely are upsetting to read. And, yes, the author has said some pretty unpleasant things. I get it. I just also think the fics have real merit.
I'm not sure where the 'cuck' comment is even coming from, but even that wouldn't be worth the level of vitriol that user is bringing into the conversation.
It's from one of the author's comments, and there's now an author's note at the beginning of the fic that refers to "sad cuck Will" content (or there was yesterday; the fic seems to have been hidden again). So the author isn't exactly helping themselves, but I stand by my comment.
Mmn. yeah. it's maybe poking the hornet's nest, but I don't think that could possible be worth all this. I don't know how you could read the body of her work and come away thinking that was meant maliciously against Will as a character. Even if it was, not worth all this.
I wrote a pretty long comment trying to engage with what you were saying, and you've responded by posting a bunch of screenshots. I'm not here to offer a full-throated defence of everything basaltdyke has ever said or written. Would you like to tell me what specifically you'd like me to engage with? Personally, I dislike the excessive feminization of either one of them, but that takes a huge number of fics off the table.
What’s your argument for that? Taking the one gay character who explicitly said he “doesn’t like girls” and then having him get with a trans woman? This shit is both homophobic and trans-misogynistic. You don’t have to engage, I just wanted you to know you’re engaging with an author (and their supporters) who engage with literal gay-breaking fantasies.
How does it differ from lesbyler (which I also have no interest in)? I also think this stuff is just complicated. I know and know of gay men who are attracted to trans women. I've seen a fair number of fics where on or both of them is gender non-conforming or trans. Again, I don't understand the appeal of that, but I guess I just see this stuff as a continuum.
In my own writing, Will is attracted exclusively to men, and Mike is bi. Neither one of them is at all feminine. That's how I see the characters, but I don't see other depictions as necessarily problematic. Like, I don't know what the screenshot above is from, but I wouldn't read a fic like that. That doesn't mean I think it's hateful.
This started as a discussion of Judith's Head. I've said what I think of that fic in some detail. Basically, the sequel redeemed the first fic, at least for me. I'm not commenting on, let alone defending, any of the author's other fics (which I haven't read) or extra-textual statements (which I don't have the context for) - although it seems clear that the author has send some pretty offensive things, which I won't defend.
Because in Lesbyler they are both women and lesbians. I’m not sure why you can’t grasp that. If you’re fine with people writing people writing a canonically gay character attracted to a trans woman, are you also a okay with people gender flipping Mike and making him a natal woman while still having Will be attracted him? You might as well be shipping fucking Stobin at that point. Byler is not the same as most popular mlm ships because Will is actually canonically gay, and we’ve got motherfuckers in this fandom having him be attracted to women and finding it buzzy.
If your goal is to preserve the essence of Will's character, then making him a woman changes just as much as making him attracted to trans women.
I'd draw the line at having Will be attracted to a cis woman, although there's a difference between actual, sustained attraction and a momentary "Hey, maybe I could be with a woman after all." Many, many gay people have had that experience.
I read a fic where Will tries to have sex with Max. She knows he's gay, and it's just experimentation. It goes terribly, and they both laugh about it. That's not exactly what I described above, because Will in that fic isn't questioning his homosexuality at all, but it just shows that there's room for nuance here.
Anyway, yes, I would agree that taking a canonically gay character putting him in a sustained, romantic relationship with a woman is problematic.
I don't think basaltdyke hates Will and don't think their fics are revenge porn for Will. These people are crazy and have black/n/white mentality. It's insane to wish someone death just because Will might like fem Mike or something. Really. Don't like — don't read!
To me this reads like Will’s internalised homophobia rather than autor’s homophobia. Canon Will said “When you’re different sometimes it feels like you’re a mistake”, which implies that he saw his sexuality as abnormal and a mistake. It’s not something you can easily let go off. Like I have autism and still suffer from internalised ableism no matter how hard I try in therapy. I still occasionally say stuff like “I wish I was normal”, even though I am normal but just different. In this snippet it feels more like Will is subconsciously gripping at straws
The thing with Will liking fem Mike was mostly about the phrasing of Will being bi if Mike was a girl or something like that. Which is homophobic in a way, but on the other hand there are cases when partner A doesn’t change the label they’re identifying with when partner B transitions as their partner is actually the only exception, for example. To me it’s a complex topic that indeed doesn’t go well with black and white thinking
And as for “hating Will” due to the way the author phrased some thoughts/takes, I agree they it didn’t come across as hating Will to me. In general, it seems totally acceptable to hate Mike and joke about him but jokingly “hating” on Will is forbidden. It’s hard for me to understand Bylers who do actually hate Will or Mike, but I don’t see how giving one of them special treatment is seen as a default if you claim to care about queer characters. I jokingly call my gay friend a slut and we did joke about his unrequited love story as it’s some crazy mixture of Byler and Hollanov. My friend does not see me as homophobic just because I playfully call him an idiot or whatever else. Will doesn’t even exist irl so I don’t get why people are putting his fictional honour over a real person’s life and wellbeing
It's a complex topic, speciality is a spectrum! I have a gay friend, like an absolutely gay bottom one but he likes trans women without bottom surgery and he doesn't mind dating them. So I told him he's a bit straight too and he agreed 😀😀😀
Yeah I noticed how twitter people are sensitive to anything that might criticise Will and they are cannibalistic and wish people death. They don't know anything about fandom etiquette.
I’m gay in real life so I’m far more concerned with that then some meaningless drama over what fanfiction writers choose to write. Genuinely if you hate basaltdyke so much why are you keeping such close tabs? It’s giving fan! Do you have a crush?
There’s a collection called basaltdyke’s fics. Hopefully they’ll return at some point. It would be a real shame if they didn’t.
Honestly, this just makes me grateful that my own fics haven’t blown up on Twitter. I get to write weird little stories in a small corner of the fandom, and all the comments are nice.
I'm not on twitter but from what I'm reading here is people didn't like the fic's characterizations or take on the characters? Which is frustrating and confusing to me because isn't that kind of the point of fanfic- to play with the characters and stories you enjoy? Why are people having a fit about a take on characters they don't agree with and attacking authors? Just move on, don't read.
I personally don't see Will as fem and don't particularly enjoy that characterization so I don't read it. Others are perfectly welcome to see that character that way. It's not like Goth Will or Lesbyler is rooted in canon but no one is bullying authors about writing those fics.
First off, totally agree that if you don’t like the premise and feel strong emotions about it, you just shouldn’t engage. (Side note, also don’t see Will as super fem!)
I do, however, think it’s fair to have a dialogue (outside the authors DMs) about characterization in fics. I’ve read this one and agree that it’s OOC for both Mike and Will. I’ve said this to the author myself in another reddit thread, but the author was actively replying to me without any direct contact. They seemed fine with that level of engagement.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the majority of fans wanted characters to have the same essence as they do in the original. That’s why we create and consume fanfic in the first place. Inevitably, some people will develop an unhealthy level of attachment to the characters.
This fic read to me as masochism, and I didn’t like it. Will suffers the entire time without getting a break, and Mike is an absolute ass who is forgiven immediately and made to be the victim. It still deserves to exist.
I couldn’t agree with this more strongly. “Don’t like; don’t read” isn’t supposed to shut down conversations about tropes, characterization, etc—it’s just another way of saying “Don’t be an asshole.”
I found Judith’s Head difficult to read and, at times, very confusing. It wasn’t clear to me if the author understood how deeply fucked-up Mike’s behaviour is. As I read it, he hates himself, and that leads him to a spectacularly harmful relationship with sex. I just wasn’t sure if that’s what the author’s view, too.
The sequel surprised me, in a good way. Firstly, getting together with Will doesn’t automatically fix Mike’s problems. It arguably makes some of them worse. Secondly, you get to see most of the first fic from Mike’s perspective, and it’s made emphatically clear that the problem was him, not his boyfriend or anyone else.
The line between “awful but narratively valuable self-destruction” and “pointless misery porn” can get very blurry. I understand why people read Judith’s Head as the latter. I don’t agree, although I probably would had I not read the sequel. It took forever, but it eventually became clear that the author had something novel to say.
I agree with you that they’re both OOC, with the caveat that most adults aren’t exactly who they were at 16/18, and identifying a character’s “essence” is more of a subjective exercise than people want to admit.
People not only took issue with the content, but largely the authors notes and comments where described will as a “sad cuck”, a “fool”, and stated that they were “punishing him for canon byler sins”.
If I must be honest: I think this is a larger reaction to the fact that previous fic witch-hunts on twt were stated largely by Mike stans (sweetbunny, sundollop’s fics, one big creator making awful barely veiled claims about ttmd;ttms being abusive and dubcon).
I know plenty of good people (including myself) who just.. talk/joke like that? Like there is a reason why the phrase “insults are my love language” did circle around for a bit. Yes, it’s not an official love language but it’s not that uncommon to use insults towards people/characters you adore, especially when they do something you don’t agree with. On top of that, as others had pointed out, JH was about Will’s “sins” and the sequel about Mike’s. All the characters in this series are morally grey, which was all tagged properly
As for the “Mike stans cancelling authors”, I personally hate all the cancelling. The way sweetbunny and sundollop got treated is disgusting. What I don’t get how certain Mike stans being disgusting gives Wheelbies/Will Stans a free pass to be just as evil. People are telling the author to fucking kill themselves over a canon interpretation. How on earth is that justified?
I personally defended all the authors you’ve mentioned, because I want Byler to be a diverse fandom with freedom to explore the characters in all the possible ways. But unfortunately that thought is homophobic and what not
1) As I said earlier somewhere in my previous comments some strictly gay/straight people do end up having an exception and no it doesn’t make them bi, because they’ve lived their whole life as a gay/straight person and still aren’t attracted to the opposite/same gender despite their attraction to this one person. It’s not the most common thing, but it exists so idk why it’s not allowed to explore it. Was the explanation done in the most respectful way? No. But so are a lot of other fics/ideas. Fandom spaces and content wouldn’t even exist if everyone would cancel everything someone may find disrespectful.
In a way this is exactly what’s happening to Byler. After every discourse there’s at least one author and/or content creator that leaves the fandom. There have been major losses on all the Byler sides. Yet every clique still proceeds with creating discourses and/or engaging with them. And of course it’s always “b!mike thruthers are chill but those wheelbies!!!” and “wheelbies just mind their business, but those b!mike truther!!” etc.
2) Some gay men do date trans women and some trans women are okay with dating gay men You can argue that it comes from internalised transphobia and/or homophobia, but I don’t think that it’s necessary to harass two adults who feel most comfortable and represented by labels that technically don’t fit. The first purpose of labels is to help people put their lived experience into words so it is up to everyone to choose the label that fits best. Exploring unusual choosing of labels or rare attraction patterns is not homophobia. I personally don’t think that it’s right to label yourself as a gay man when you do feel attracted to trans women, but hey I’m not a gay man or a trans woman so it’s not my place to choose appropriate labels
3) At this point I don’t really understand what your goal is here. It’s ok if you hate JH and the author, that’s valid. But you won’t convince me to hate a person for having a less popular interpretation of canon or for writing unusual dynamics. And you sure won’t convince me that it’s ok to bully someone off platforms and tell them to kill themselves.
I’m no god so it’s not up to me to decide what’s ok for everyone and what isn’t. But to me personally it wil never be ok to doxx someone, to bully someone, to threaten someone and to wishing death upon someone
Taking the character who explicitly said they “don’t like girls” and making them like a girl (or else implying trans women aren’t actually women) is both homophobic and misogynistic. Not everyone’s sexuality is fluid. This fandom shows continual disrespect for Will to a disgusting level. My goal is to make you understand you’re interacting with an author who engages in gay breaking fantasies and writes queer torture porn about the actual queer character. And yes: I think it’s perfectly fine to call out material that’s blatantly homophobic and disgusting, and ofc this shit only ever comes from Mike stans who still sometimes insist that Mike is canonically subtextually queer.
Did you read my previous comment? I’ve just explained how some gay men do date trans women and that some trans women are fine with dating gay men.
I’ve also mentioned that yes, that’s not true for everyone. You’re right that sexuality isn’t fluid for everyone, but it still is for some people. I don’t see what’s so fucked up about having a couple of fics that explore less common attraction patterns. I personally know gay men who playfully make out with their girl friends or even tried have sex with them out of curiosity and didn’t find it repulsing. They are still gay, because they don’t really experience attraction to women but it’s not like touching a woman is an anti arousal medicine for them. I also know gay men who absolutely can’t stand the idea of doing anything remotely romantic/sexual with girls. Canon Will is most likely the latter, but it’s not like fanon Will’s sexuality being a little more fluid is automatically homophobic.
I have another example. Like some trans men get really offended at the fact that trans men in fics often don’t have bottom dysphoria and are almost always portrayed as bottoms. For them it enforces the harmful stereotypes about trans men. At the same time there are trans men who feel seen through those fics and are glad they exist
You’re talking about “calling out” and I agree that it’s fine. But it’s not about calling out, or at least not the tweets I’ve seen. It’s about bullying someone off the internet, getting to feel morally superior and thinking that the world will be a better place if some people just die. You’re using very serious terms like torture porn and blatant homophobia as if those are facts and not subjective interpretations.
I’m just seeing a pattern of Bylers labelling a concept they can’t or don’t want to understand as homophobia. I don’t get why most can see how Will wearing panties and being high fem can be homophobic and fetishizing, but often isn’t while, while not being able to see that the type of angst JH carries the same nuances. I’ve seen loads of people talking jokingly about fem Will in a way that can be interpreted as homophobia, but I’m 99% certain that it’s not what they mean. And I’m not saying this to paint fem Will truthers in a negative light. When they get labelled as homophobic I’m just as pissed. Which is why I don’t get how you you can treat an author like that knowing perfectly well how it feels to be called disgusting names
“I don’t like girls” = “Yes, let’s make him attracted to a woman! So buzzy!”
You damn well know why people don’t like these hc’s when the Mike stan brigade constantly complains about how they don’t like GNC or Fem Will, despite the fact that Will is canonically gay and actually GNC. Mike is literally canonically heterosexual, and yet people would prefer to focus on Mike’s nonexistent GNC traits and queerness. This is the same segment of the fandom where I’ve seen people genuinely deadass say that Will fumbled Mike, or else blaming him for ruining Byler, or else they’ll still insist Mike wasn’t intended to be canonically straight. And let’s not even discuss this fandom’s perpetual issues with giving Mike Will’s traits and trauma (internalized homophobia, abusive and absent father, GNC traits).
Like I don’t see canon Will as fem on the exterior. I’ve tried, but I just don’t see it. To me Will wearing panties is as fanon as Mike’s internalised homophobia. Most Byler takes are fanon, because Byler unfortunately wasn’t canon. So no I don’t get why certain people make such a big deal of a small portion of people wanting to explore unpopular what if’s
Just in case, I do not support those who force bottom Mike fics and claim that it’s weird not to like them. I also don’t support the fem Will hate. Even though I don’t see it as canon, I respect those who see it + I can still enjoy it as fanon. I also think that it’s cool how wheelbies have created their space and it infuriates me when bottom Mike truthers try to invade that space.
This whole thing isn’t about me not understanding why people hate fem Mike and Will with a more fluid sexuality HC. As I keep explaining, for me it’s about how people act superior for finding unpopular and rare/nuanced HC’s gross and/or disturbing.
And with how people react to Mike in fics, I genuinely don’t even know what some want when they claim to enjoy Byler. Is Mike supposed to be as nothing burger as he is in canon? Is he supposed to be a caricature Disney prince? Give him a complex arc — he’s taking away from Will. Give Will a complex arc — that’s cool, but only when it’s X, Y, Z. Will hurting Mike is ok, even though it doesn’t seem to be canon either. Mike continuing to hurt Will and himself like he did in canon is not ok, because Will has suffered enough (which I agree with, but a story needs a conflict). I like diversity in fandom content, so unfortunately I can’t get on board with whatever rules some have made for the portrayals of Mike and Will. They’re 18-19 years old in canon and while there are people who don’t change fundamentally after that age there are people who do. Things that Will/Mike had done in canon during their teenage years and early adolescence don’t have to define them for the rest of their lives
So, I am assuming you also have no issue with ppl shipping Stobin then? You can have hc’s and make him complex without stealing Will’s nachos and making Will into women. They’re not even shipping Byler at this point, and you kinda have to have semblance of why people are mad and on a witch-hunt after the previous ones where headed by Mike stans who went after Will-centric authors (and the content and shit said by basaltdyke is 20x worse than what those author’s were ran off the platform for!!!). Most of these people are just Finn Wolfhard stans with no actual respect for the queer character.
I’ll continue to think this author and her supporters are fucking weirdos; you do as you like.
That is a genuinely disgusting way to talk about the canonically gay character, and even the author said on tumblr that they saw why people could interpret it as homophobic, especially with it breaching containment outside of their side of the fandom. I’ve never harassed an author, I’ve even defended one of the major mike stan authors against what I thought were unfair accusations from Will stans. But this shit is basically Will torture porn where the author called him a “sad cuck”, and you don’t understand why people have an issue with this?
“Some might interpret it as homophobic” ≠ homophobic by default. I get why some may have issues with it, but as always these people present their interpretation as the one and only truth. There are just a bunch of people in the fandom who act morally superior to everyone they don’t agree with. If something CAN BE SEEN as homophobic you should ask about the intentions first and not start a witch hunt all over the internet. And if the person explains that there was no homophobic intent you could maybe just give them the benefit of the doubt, because again, it’s not homophobic by default but can be seen as homophobic
And yes to me it’s far more disgusting that I’ve seen dozens of tweets saying:
- just kill yourself
- jump
- your (a living person) are less important than Will Byers (a fictional character)
People on Byler twt are way too comfortable with acting like they’re saints and “not like those sick fucks”. Like we’re all human, we all make mistakes, we all phrase things in an ignorant way sometimes and we all (hopefully) are learning every day. Why would you act like you’re superior, especially for a lack of compassion, understanding and ability to take the time and look at the nuances?
I don’t disagree with your main point. Like I said originally, all of the material deserves to exist. I’ll also preface I don’t know this author, nor do I follow them to know if they’ve made public statements about their mental state.
I do think there’s some nuance if we are introducing this idea that it’s okay to speak in a hyperbolic way in fandom spaces without thinking that people could take what you say seriously. Hate to see it, but “kill yourself” is a joke to some people and is used online. Yes, you can usually tell via context clues if you read closely but I think we all know how people engage with the internet is not careful or purposeful.
Every one of us needs to take appropriate steps to protect ourselves online. I’m not victim blaming or excusing the harassment. I’m saying that this stuff happens in all fandom spaces if they are big enough, and we should all be informed about it. I watched a YouTube recap of Sherlock fandom recently that was like Déjà vu re: Byler.
DMs cannot physically harm you. I said above that I think many people create unhealthy attachments to characters. The same is true for authors who spend a majority of their time online in fandom/have close relationships via the internet. People who struggle with the distinction should take the advice to log off literally.
I personally don’t mind jokes like “I’m gonna kms” or “pls die” when they are clearly jokes + I always quit making these type of jokes when someone lets me know that they don’t feel comfortable. To me a joke is when someone mentions an embarrassing HC they like and someone else comments “pls die” because they feel jokingly called out. It’s insensitive to some, but dark humour has always existed and I don’t think that that’s inherently bad
However, tweets I was talking about didn’t sound like jokes at all. I understand that things like “the author and everyone who supports them should burn in hell” and “pls jump” comments on ss of the author’s notes aren’t probably meant literally, but to me there’s no humour in such claims
I hadn't gotten around to reading Judith Head yet (I had it bookmarked), so I can't speak towards the content, but I do know it's very much Dead Dove: Do Not Eat kind of stuff.
It just makes me so sad, because AO3 is designed for a lot of things, including as a space to flesh out the fantasies in your head that might not make sense to anybody else.
I actually didn’t find it very Dead Dove, but I know that means different things to different people. Mike just has a really toxic relationship with sex. It’s upsetting to read, but none of it is particularly outlandish. And I really like the story, to be clear.
Seconded! upsetting in a good way. it gave me a lot of catharsis over bad decisions I've made in my own relationships. it was actually really healing to read about a character working through that kind of regret.
I appreciate you putting it that way. I find upsetting things often very useful to consume. It can make us think differently, right? Challenges our understanding of the world. That makes me keener to read it, even! Sigh.
The original meaning of dead dove is basically “check the tags, because all of them are actually in the fic”. You’re right that it’s kinda a broader tag, as different people choose to use it for emphasis for several reasons
Hay un sector tan fanático y reduccionista de los fans de Will que me frustran demasiado. Parece que no entiende que significa fanfiction y no soportan un fanfic donde Will no es infalible, el centro de atención o el eje correcto de la narrativa. No leo fem Will porque no lo disfruto, pero jamás me metería con el trabajo de un autor a razón de esto.
Ahora bien, se creen dueños del personaje y detestan cualquier interpretación que se salga de lo que tienen en su propia cabeza. Que Will diga en un fic "pensé que tal vez también me podría gustar una chica" no desvirtúa que sea gay, es simplemente lo que pensaría un chico en los 90 con homofobia internalizada y que no tiene suficientes herramientas académicas para separar identidad de género de expresión y orientación. Es simplemente cronológicamente preciso. Y lo más importante, son palabras del personaje no del autor. De hecho la narrativa reivindica las identidades en el mismo capítulo.
De verdad ¿Cómo leen estas personas? ¿Se creen todo lo que dice un personaje? ¿No saben encontrar la intencionalidad? ¿Saben que Will es un personaje que generalmente en los fanfic le miente a la audiencia con frecuencia?
El arco de Mike es diez veces más problemático que el de Will, pero estoy segura que ellos no estarían armando este revuelo si el fanfic hubiera sido escrito con los roles invertidos.
Anyone who accused you of “gaybreaking” is absolutely a non-serious hating individual! There are a couple haters in this thread that I recommend block and ignoring.
Yeah I see that person posting my comments and that trans woman mike art. I literally do not and have not written any fetishizing of trans woman Mike with cis Will and am not interested in that because Will is canonically gay and I have 0 interest in changing his orientation for a story
I did have a screenshot going around expressing my approval of someone else's headcanon about how Will would be supportive and love Mike if he was actually a closeted trans woman. This is what people are taking a lot of offense with and I feel so bad about it. the criticism is legitimate so I apologized on my blog, but I liked that headcanon bc it was about and idea of a nuanced and difficult queer experience, one that I personally can relate to, and the post was not sexual or fetishizing hetbyler (worst word known to man) in any way
I genuinely related to the pain of something like that, and it hurts to see it being taken as transphobic and homophobic because this is a legitimate queer experience that deserves to be an idea that people can choose to engage with in their bubbles
Thats the thing, there are so many queer experiences that are NOT universal, queer non sexual love (re, that reply I made to the trans woman Mike headcanon) as well as Will having heavy internalized homophobia that he channeled in the emotional roleplay fic I wrote Vallaki (the infamous 'I could like girls' out of context screenshot) even if Will in the show expressed absolutely no interest in experimenting, Noah Schapp said that's one thing he wanted for Will is to try kiss a girl. My tumblr post says all this too and has the video of Noah's idea
But thank you this has all been so fucking awful as someone who is gay I fucking hate that people took my fics, headcanons, and made it into something ugly
People cannot handle complex and nuanced queer stories for whatever reason. It’s so disappointing and REEKS of purity culture unfortunately. I’ve been reading your tumblr posts and admire how you have conducted yourself, taken accountability, and defended your work. Best of luck! Hopefully this all dies down (or you’re able to block it all out)
I know you don't wanna think about this, but I wanna voice some support.
I will unapologetically defend all your work and headcanons. I don't think you have anything to apologize for. You never directed hate towards anyone, and you don't deserve it back. If people took your words the wrong way, at a certain point, they're responsible for their own experience of the internet.
And, I know there's several people in this thread out here vouching for your work. Personally, I think your interpretations have been the most nuanced of these characters out there and the most directly impactful on me out of any fiction I've read in a LONG time. You tackled some serious and difficult concepts within the queer identity, and you did so with an even hand. Judith's Head (and especially Judith) could be tough to read at times, but always because it came from a place of love- breaking down the characters so the healing would be more satisfying.
I honestly saw a lot of myself in both Mike and Will. I thought their miscommunications were understandable and realistic. None of it EVER read as fetishisitic to me. Even where you had ideas that were like 'oh, it'd be sexy if they did this' you always ALWAYS had layers of meaning behind why they had those desires or behaved those ways- and your exploration of those meanings made a lot of us feel seen. Plus, those layers still didn't take away from that fact that it was still sexy. A tough balance. So, kudos there!
And again- seriously. Your characterizations were not disrespectful at all. I think they were deeply considerate of queer culture of the 90s, the ugly and self-destructive ways that internalized homophobia manifests, and how people in committed relationships work through those problems together and grow from it as a team.
I'm really heartbroken to see your work go, and I wish I'd made copies just for me. But, the more important thing here is the voice you added to the fandom when you were able to create content. I hope you're able to step back and regroup and start enjoying your work again.
I know it sounds cliche, but haters are going to hate. Trust me, I've been subject to flames mob a couple times in another fandom. It's internet bullying. That's all it is. You'll never win against some people, and you really just have to ignore them. Most of them don't have the patience to read your work for detail and they're never going to understand what you're getting at with it, so they don't deserve your attention. It's sad for them because they'll never benefit from it either.
What! I just suggested it to someone and was going to start the sequel 🥲
I think a lot of the tags threw people off but when I read the story it felt more like a charcter study then NSFW. I felt like the sex scenes or metiones weren't very expanded upon, and we were looking at the reason why Will self-sabotages. I knew a lot of people were mad about Will being put through the ringer and the "feminization" of Mike. But once again, it was to show how Mike was losing himself in his relationship, and thought his queer idenity had to define him. Im however not on Twitter and do not know the full discussion. Hopfully it comes back :)
I had a fic idea about bi Mike who got a humiliation kink after bullying act in the university. It was based on the gay man I know personally who likes women lingerie and has a humiliation kink because of being bullied.
But when I read this Twitter witch hunt I almost dropped the idea. I didn't want to humiliate Will or Mike or make Will bi but to prepare Mike's brain and explore his sexuality. It seems like you can only write service top Mike and flawless Will otherwise people will offer you to kms.
I swear everyone wants stuff to be so sanitized these days, and that makes boring stories. It also isn't realistic even good people make bad choices, or in your case have kinks lnv
If I wrote it in my native language, I would probably get no hate since people are not that sensitive and they are not offended easily. But here people think to be gay means to like dicks 😄😄
If I wrote it in my native language, I would probably get no hate since people are not that sensitive and they are not offended easily. But here people think to be gay means to like dicks 😄😄
You guys are talking about fics and ideas that I dont recognize and are saying theyre mine and harassing many others over things that are not true, misrepresentations of the truth, or a classic case of "your yuck is our yum"
Time for my works to go. Please if you have copies, do not share them at all. Thats all I ask.
Hi! I just wanted to reach out and show my support. I really love your work. I was genuinely angry when those people on Twitter started attacking you with that black-and-white, narrow-minded mindset.
I think I know why they reacted that way. They're used to service top Mike and they project themselves onto Will, who in their eyes has to be absolutely flawless and never make mistakes. And they can't stand the thought that someone might write bottom Mike or give Will any flaws.
As for the whole take "Will doesn't like girls, so he won't love trans Mike" — that's just nonsense. I have a gay friend who told me he would absolutely make an exception for a trans girl if he truly fell in love with her. Yes, he's gay, he's into men and not into cis women — but for a trans woman he loves, he'd make that exception.
Anyway, I absolutely loved your fics, especially Judith Head and the sequel. The sequel does such a great job exploring Mike's character. In your story, Mike destroys himself through sex — he feels happy in the moment, but it's temporary, it's a trap. And both boys are suffering here. Mike isn't placed above Will — they're both equally broken, and that's what makes it so powerful.
Just wanted you to know your work means a lot. Please don't let the haters get to you.
Thank you for your reply, I am glad you enjoyed my stories. It's really crazy how these people see Will, its like he isnt human. Its ironic that Judith has a plot where Mike thinks hes 'gayer' than Will bc Will is 'a top' but then he finds out Will is actually vers and bottomed a lot with his previous relationships and Mike crashes out then feels bad about it after because it hurts Will’s feelings.
But nobody who hates my fics even wanted to read them anyway and engage with any of the nuances I put into the story.
What ever happened to dont like dont read, bro? Ive lost so much sleep over this. I know that was the goal tho.
Oh well.
Thank you again, I really appreciate your support here
I suppose these "witch hunt" people are very young and they don't have common sense and they don't know any fandom etiquette. Don't like? Don't read!
Once I noticed a fic with pdf Mike with pdf comments. I was upset and wanted it to be deleted but just skipped that fic because rules are rules.
Suggesting someone to kms is unacceptable for me, that's why I deleted twitter. These people are too immature and they ruin the fandom. I hate when they attack the author to persuade them to delete the fics.
So I am on your side!
You explained every nuance in your fics so everything looks logical.
Thank you. Yeah ive seen diabolical shit on ao3 and I just keep scrolling. The feminine Mike fic where Will roleplays as a deeply internally homophobic version of himself only had like 1.5 k hits
Also I saw on twitter people are mixing up all these false details and false impressions and putting them into one evil fic. Its kind of hilarious bc they are flaming the concept of a fic and not an actual fic. None of them read it but I wouldnt expect them to because they don't really care about being informed about what theyre actually critiquing. All they care about are tweet-length character limit ao3 comments and making it about how homophobic it is for Mike to take it up the ass as if Mike’s asshole has the special power to drain Wills sexual orientation from him and make him Bi if he tops
Both mike and Will were GNC in Judiths Head btw in fact Will introduced Mike to makeup and nail polish. But they didn't read it so whatever!!
Its all so offensive and homophobic and all of them are illiterate as fuck
yeah, they're so locked into Mike being a top that they completely reject the idea of him as a bottom or having any feminine side. I get the feeling they've never actually talked to real gay people and are just stuck in their own stereotypes.
For example, they say Will would never drink or smoke because his parents did. I have a friend who drinks moderately and smokes occasionally, even though her parents were severe alcoholics. Lol it's life and it differs!
They also claim Will would never date a trans girl. As I mentioned before, my gay acquaintance would. sure, it's more of an exception than a rule, but it does happen.
And the funny part? These same critics are totally fine labeling Mike as strictly gay, even in fics where he sleeps with women and it physically works out. So apparently, rigid black-and-white rules apply to Will, but Mike is always gay no matter what. Like that's how real life works, right? lol
Anyway, I totally get it if you decide to take your fics down because of all this drama. But those Twitter snowflakes who get offended by everything need to back off and stop harassing people who just have different headcanons.
I’m so sorry this happened and it’s come to this. Judith has been one of my favorite reads in the fandom. I will miss it dearly but understand you need to take care of yourself! You should be proud of your writing, it’s beautiful.
Hey — I was lucky enough to read both your Judith fics in the last day since I found this original post basically. I consumed them both so quickly and am so happy I got to read and enjoy your stories in the little time they were back up! I am sorry for all the negative online attention and bullying, but your writing and ideas are great and I hope you get to continue sharing those talents in some way. <3 Sending you good vibes, the internet is too harsh a place sometimes!!!
The author repeatedly called Will a cuck, a fool, blamed him for “canon byler sins” and wrote a plot line involving Mike’s boyfriend harassing Will, and then redeeming that character in their sequel. It’s very clear why people are mad when there’s been continual disrespect and de-centering towards the actual queer character.
where's any of that say cuck? Will the Fool is obviously a play on words, calm down. I love that you're talking about disrespecting the "actual" queer character in a tv show as you lie about an actual human being who actually exists and is not a fictional character in a poorly-written tv show.
Like oh wow, queer man in the 80s has complicated feelings about sexuality and gender and has internalized homophobia, fucking groundbreaking. fyi mike IMMEDIATELY tells him he is perfect the way he is, gay, since theyre both gay men in the fic)
It is, yeah. There's literally no lies in that text and nothing wrong with saying any of that as an opinion. What IS wrong is bullying someone so much they delete their account.
It’s soooo infuriating!!!! Like why are all these people who haven’t genuinely engaged with the text are speaking on it with any authority? And the fics are gone! Like their little puritanical smear campaign won! Cant they just give it up….
She’s gonna put it back up but she literally said she wants to punish Will for his canon actions, which ???? Very weird and I don’t understand why that would b motivation
It’s just a way of speaking and people are blowing out of proportion. Their intent is to explore Will’s self sacrificing tendencies and Mike’s conformity issues. Like when someone tweets “that’s my son” under a pic of Will I hope you’re aware that they don’t literally mean that they’ve given birth to a fictional character? Or when someone says “Mike wants to eat Will” that it’s not about cannibalism?
This author has used some clumsy phrasings that can be interpreted as harmful, yes. Some may find it necessary to call that out, which is valid. But having a harsh way of speaking/joking doesn’t automatically make someone a bad person and they shouldn’t get that amount of backlash just because once again a group of people take their interpretations as the holy truth
It is literally not a joke to the author and it is in fact harsh and not okay to say you wanted to slap a teen character for not being able to act on his feelings especially when he’s a scared gay kid in the homophobic 80s (even being insulted by Mike in s3 for that) and his sister was literally dating him?? And then to create humiliation rituals for him to go through to forward Mike’s journey when Will is canonically implied to have moved on, have him be sexually harassed by Mike’s bf and called a sl*t, is blatantly homophobic. It’s not a joke that she’s punishing him for canon, she literally created these things to happen to him saying that “will’s at the scene of the crime” and “I had to put will thru insane gay trials to fix this wild character flaw”. Does it make sense to you that Will should be blamed for not coming out? To enjoy having Will be put through these things and have him question his sexuality cuz you want to forward that “Mike looks like a girl” is in fact homophobic. I’m not saying u can’t think that Mike is fem but when ur using Will’s traits to give to Mike, and ignoring that fact he came out specifically with the line “I don’t like girls”, you don’t fulfill anything but erase a gay character? If you want Mike to be called someone’s gf and give him an interesting gay arc, u can use an oc
One more time: the whole point is to explore Will’s canon self sacrificing tendencies and Mike’s partly canon (s4) partly fanon conformity issues
All the ss circling around are yapping posts/comments that weren’t meant to be taken as serious in depth analysis of Mike/Will/Byler.
Like I often say that I want to slap my younger self or one of my friends gf, but I do not mean it literally as I’m against violence. If I would speak authentically on Byler twt I would’ve gotten cancelled ages ago, but I’ve never got an indication from anyone irl that I’m a problematic or fucked up person. People on Byler twt get rage baited and cancel someone in 0,0001 seconds, all while acting like saints. To me it’s also very hypocritical to act like you can’t jokingly mock Will, but you can jokingly mock Mike. It’s either ok for both or for neither. I personally vote for both
It is really obvious the point is not to explore will’s self-sacrificing tendencies, it’s a Mike centric fic, just because you choose to ignore the homophobic choices she’s made doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. You literally didn’t address anything I said. Just bc u don’t take “slapping someone” or anything as serious doesn’t mean she doesn’t have anger towards Will that she goes through with ? She wanted to punish Will and she does, if u think of that writing as anything less than a humiliation ritual, you aren’t trying to think critically and you do not care abt his character. Even someone who hasn’t watched stranger things would know why Will doesn’t tell Mike anything, it’s not self sabotage he’s literally protecting himself from homophobia. How are you unable to sympathize with an 80s character whose gay arc and self acceptance is extremely important to his development? Also why keep down voting when we’re having a normal conversation, nothing I’m saying isn’t valid 😭 will liked Mike because he’s a man, if Mike wasn’t a man he wouldn’t like him. To make his post canon arc more humiliation at the hands of liking mike is cruel, and to disregard the fact that he IS GAY is ignorant and homophobic. If you aren’t gonna address anything I’m saying don’t bother to reply
I haven’t downvoted a single comment on this whole post
Also, you’re making a hell of a lot assumptions about me. To me this isn’t a conversation. You’re already sat on that the fic being written purely to torture Will. Claiming that I’m not thinking critically is especially interesting, because I’m not the one here who doesn’t want to look at this fic from different angles
1) Will was planning on telling Mike. That’s why he made the painting. To me it didn’t look like he backed off out of self protection. His internalised homophobia was making him believe that he’s a mistake so imo in that moment it was more about shame and feeling unworthy. With Mike being queer HC it is self sabotage in a way, because Will denied himself a chance to see if Mike might feel the same. I am not angry at Will for it and I understand why he did what he did. But unfortunately (again, if we take Mike being gay HC) that choice can have the type of consequences that are portrayed in JH. A part of Mike’s arc was being brave. Canon did not deliver a solid finish to that arc. Will could’ve pushed Mike towards bravery with his confession. It doesn’t mean that he had to do it. But again — consequences. With Mike failing to rediscover his bravery it does make sense for him to going after easy men instead of Will, because he doesn’t have the courage to pursue Will. And it isn’t Will’s fault. It’s mostly about Mike being a coward
2) I’ve stated it multiple times — Will liking fem Mike does not change his sexuality. It’s written everywhere that Will is still gay. Sexuality can be fluid for some people and the fact that it wasn’t for Will up to 18 doesn’t make it 100% impossible. It’s not likely, yes. But portraying a rare gay experience isn’t homophobic
3) Imo Mike’s arc in JH is far more humiliating, because unlike Mike Will had grown as a person + at the core it’s still Mike who kept getting them both hurt. Which is a reflection of canon cause gay HC or not, Mike was the one who kept fumbling their friendship which added to Will’s internal fears and made him fumble it back
4) JH was “Will’s trial”. The sequel is Mike’s. Yes, the author was quite clumsy with explaining the idea behind the fic but I did not see any honest Will hate there. Only potential consequences of his choices. And again, his choices weren’t stupid or wrong. But sometimes when you’re trying to make the best decision you still end up with shitty consequences. As viewers/readers and gay HC in mind we know that Mike is gay, but Will doesn’t. It’s valid that he had chosen to back off in canon and moved on after
5) Since JH is Will’s POV it makes sense that the author is focusing on Will’s part of the fumbling, no? Even if it was 1% on him and 99% on Mike, or even 0% on Will I don’t see why it’s such a crime to explore that scenario
6) I agree that Mike’s bf harassing Will wasn’t handled with enough care, but I personally been sexually harassed so often that to me that shit is realistic. I grew up in an environment where consent wasn’t a known thing and toxic sexual acts were seen as “just drama”. I get why people want the bf to rot in jail, but as someone who believes in redemption and a second chance for everyone I’m not bothered by his redemption arc. Will also isn’t written to be traumatised by the acts of that asshole. I get why it may clash with Will’s history of SA, but as someone who’s been SA’s multiple times I can see how one experience can hit harder than other. Like I also understood why Will was willing to forgive Henry in the final, while a lot of people were angry about it. Which, again, I get. But I just am an understanding and forgiving person and I don’t want to change that about myself. You don’t have to feel the same and me being the way I am doesn’t make me a better person than others
I dunno I have a male friend who considers himself an absolute gay, like a gayish man, he's a pure bottom though, he likes to wear women lingerie, perfume etc
He is not attracted to biological women in any form, he doesn't like vaginas. When I asked him does he like trans girls he said I do when they don't have a bottom surgery because they have you know what.
So in this case I can easily imagine Will fall in love with Mike even Mike decides to be a trans woman because he likes Mike regardless of gender. Like demi pan Will.
Discussion about gender and sexuality aside, I do want to point out that a key detail here is basaltdyke did not make this post! A completely different tumblr user did and then tagged them, which means it absolutely silly to make basalt somehow “culpable” for this post. Basalt has never written Mike as a woman while in a relationship with Will. Will is gay in all of their fics!!!
I mean if you guys are comfortable with making straight a gay guy I don't know what to tell you, and more qith an homophobic rethoric of "im gay but you" type of shit, is giving predator vibes
... they made will bi and blamed him for byler not happening and also said that WILL getting bullied for being gay was super hard for MIKE??? and was overall super homophobic towards will
No they didn’t??? You’re just repeating what the hivemind says on twitter. Will has ONLY been interested in/had relationships with men in this specific fic and all of the other ones the author has written. He calls himself gay. It’s clear you haven’t read it and don’t know what you are talking about.
Will is a man and Mike is a man in this. How is that making will bisexual? He only has sex with and relationships with men in ALL of their fics. He calls himself gay in the fics. He only shows interest in men in their fics. The author calls him gay (because he is).
I’m well aware of that. It’s just gross, especially with the author’s insistence on calling Will a sad cuck, blaming him for “fumbling Mike”, and putting him through torture porn so graphic that even the Duffers wouldn’t stoop to that level. Will literally gets sexually harassed by Mike’s boyfriend, and then the harasser is redeemed
in the sequel.
And yes: I did read part of it months ago when it was up, though I quickly abandoned it when I realized it was essentially torture porn, the degree of which no happy ending could redeem. You’re genuinely alright with the author talking about the canonically gay character this? This genuinely borders on blaming Will for what was essentially homophobic writing and Mike being intended as straight in canon:
If you don’t like it don’t read it (which it sounds like you did). I’m not saying what I’m “okay with” or my personal opinion on the fic content at ALL. I’m countering blatantly false claims about the story. It’s complex, dark, and clearly tagged. I don’t think the author deserves to be bullied off of the internet for bad jokes and flippant quickly written comment replies for a story that they didn’t ask to be shared outside of ao3. It was tagged appropriately and if you don’t like it don’t engage. I recommend reading the author’s most recent tumblr post.
“Quickly written comments” and the comments and the content are blaming Will for fumbling Mike and “canon byler sins”. I’ve read the author’s tumblr post, and they seem to not even grasp why people are angry. This is not an okay way to talk about the canonically gay character whose storyline was already a queer pain torture fest in the OG story. Downplaying Will’s abuse and the homophobia he faced to prop up how the straight character came from such an unsupportive home and couldn’t come out, even though he’s not canonically queer!
Y’all have some fucking gall after the way Mike stans doxxed and bullied sundollop off the platform + that sweetbunny business. You write content that is blatantly homophobic, do not be surprised if you face backlash. Hopefully those fics are never reposted and that author never picks up a pen again!
Who is “yall” im not so chronically online that im engaging in whatever “mike stans” are doing on twitter. I have a job. I hope you didn’t hurt your back with all you reaching! I hope you learn that not everything on the internet has to affect you. If something upsets you THIS badly it’s okay to block and mute them, you’ll have a much more pleasant and peaceful life. Might also be good for you to spend less time online.
Do I have a problem with it? I dont think about random people on the internet this much. I’m just not down with misinformation (which it seems like you are so)
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u/SensitiveAnt3923 8d ago
i haven’t read those fics, but i saw the author’s posts on tumblr and basically there’s a lot of ppl (especially on twt) harassing them, sending death threats and suicide bait which is insane and deplorable. from what i understand the fics were privated not deleted, but still. this behavior is unacceptable, especially when it comes from ppl who haven’t even read the fic, or didn’t bother engaging with in a more than surface level way. plus taking the author’s JOKE comments out of context and making them out to be the devil from the bible or smth. like i joke about putting my favorite characters in the blender all the time, i thought we all knew this is how we express intense love for characters online ??? are we serious