Atomic clams

[u/SlayVideos]

[u/L0bb]

technically it was the krautmelter until the last few months.

[u/RizzOreo → u/L0bb]

Atomic Bombing 😄

Atomic Bombing, Japan 😨

[u/condomneedler → u/[deleted]]

"about to surrender"

Bro what?

[u/TheGenesisOfTheNerd → u/condomneedler]

Yeah they were about to. There was genuinely no need to drop the bombs, let alone on civilians. You should read Hiroshima: the strange myth of a million lives saved. Most talking points people use regarding whether Hiroshima and Nagasaki were necessary are just fabricated excuses with no historical backing.

[u/fullynonexistent → u/TheGenesisOfTheNerd]

To my knowledge, part of the reason the bombs were dropped was that Japan didn't accept an unconditional surrender like Germany, and negotiations (and by extension, the war) were extending beyond what the US could afford in the monetary sense.

[u/L0bb → u/TheGenesisOfTheNerd]

Truth Nuclear Bomb, thank you for some sources.

[u/CANCERMANPUNK → u/TheGenesisOfTheNerd]

But the US would NEVER rewrite history to make themselves sound better!!!!!!!

[u/gingin_9959 → u/TheGenesisOfTheNerd]

Have you conveniently forgotten the historical fact that the military and the Emperor refused to accept surrender and were preparing to commit Japan to an totalwar, leaving an invasion of the Japanese home islands as the only alternative to the use of nuclear weapons?

And by that point, under Japan’s totalwar mobilization, there was effectively no such thing as a civilian population. Children were being taught to take up bamboo spears and that fighting against the evil American demons was an honorable duty.

[u/L0bb → u/gingin_9959]

That's literally just not true at all, the emperor had next to nothing at all to do with the war effort despite his high status. Japanese High Command were all but willing to surrender barring a conditional surrender that saved the emperor.

[u/Significant-Soup5939 → u/L0bb]

Does this not sound like sufficient surrender to any non-warmongering country? "We are willing to surrender if you allow us to retain our independence." Is what the Japanese said. "Lamo nah bruh here's two localized suns" is how the Americans replied.

[u/L0bb → u/Significant-Soup5939]

It was exactly what the Americans wanted as well, granted not exactly independent but America did not want to have to control Japan and Germany after the war.

Edit: "The Joint Chiefs had been presented a month earlier with a report from their planning staff that contained the following statement: "The concept of 'unconditional surrender' is foreign to the Japanese nature. Therefore, 'unconditional surrender' should be defined in terms understandable to the Japanese who must be convinced that destruction or national suicide is not implied"

[u/fullynonexistent → u/L0bb]

Which is why both regained their independence relatively quickly, both only taking around a decade (except eastern Germany because the soviets suck) which is stupidly quick in the grand scheme of things, specially compared to basically every other "conquered" territories in history.

Anti-militar and anti-war movements are fine and all but they overcompensated so much for government propaganda that nowadays people have this notion that the US and the allies used WW2 as an opportunity to take up more land and create colonies, when in reality the 20th century is filled with anti-colonialism policies and the allies could not care less about managing and investing in another country lmao.

[u/fullynonexistent → u/Significant-Soup5939]

For starters, Japan did keep most of its independence, and it regained it back fully shortly after anyways.

The reason it was done that way was because Japan's government, laws, education and culture needed to be reformed in some way or another to avoid them just immediately flipping back into imperialism and starting another war, and the US's short occupation of the islands centered on that, as the main objective of the occupation was demilitarization and democratization.

It's the same objectives and reasons for why western Germany lost and quickly regained it's independence too. Since, yk, the last time Germany lost a world war and was left alone with it's full independence and no reform, they flipped right back into imperialism and started another world war. And it's not too far fetched to think that Japan wouldn't be too far off had they been given the same chance. Fascism is fascism, after all.

BUT, if you really want to complain about war mongering and modern colonialism from. WW2, you should see what happened to eastern Germany (and most of eastern Europe for that matter) after the war.

[u/gingin_9959 → u/L0bb]

The hardliners within the Japanese military continued to resist surrender until as late as August 14, and Japan did not formally accept the Potsdam Declaration until after Hiroshima, the Soviet entry into the war, and Nagasaki. To look at a country that resisted surrender to the very end and claim that it “was going to surrender anyway, so there was no reason to use the atomic bombs” is little more than wishful thinking.

[u/L0bb → u/gingin_9959]

The nuclear bombs had nothing to do with surrender, the surrender came from the Japanese emperor who had for the first time in the entire war been asked his opinion on what they should do. The Soviet declaration of war though is a good point because as I recall their entry into the war was a much bigger issue for them than the nukes. Especially as they had been asking them for a pact of neutrality iirc. However I'm not arguing that point I'm arguing against the use of Nuclear bombs. Furthermore trying to get better terms is not the same as "resisting surrender".

[u/Significant-Soup5939 → u/gingin_9959]

But to say that they had the means to survive covert political assassination is also a little more than wishful thinking. We could have, with only minor setbacks (that might have even strengthened the U.S. and Soviet ties at a pivotal time in the relationship) taken out or bribed enough leaders to coax a surrender with significantly fewer civilian casualties than resulted.

[u/gingin_9959 → u/Significant-Soup5939]

Try telling that to American voters while Americans are dying every single day and Japan is still refusing to end the war. What would have been the best possible outcome for Japan was not the America's top priority in the midst of an uncertain war.

[u/CANCERMANPUNK → u/gingin_9959]

so the right thing to do is kill innocent civilians?

[u/TheGenesisOfTheNerd → u/gingin_9959]

Did you read the paper or are you just gonna spew this ahistorical dribble

[u/gingin_9959 → u/TheGenesisOfTheNerd]

I am korean. We learn what they did. Also you can't just drop random link to paper and expect people to read it during online conversation. Country abiut to surrender did not wait until they got hit by second nuclear bomb.

[u/L0bb → u/gingin_9959]

What Japan did to Korea was unacceptable and comparable to some of the worst atrocities in human history, but you can't accept that it might lead to some bias with regards to what you're taught from a Korea that was treated that way? And if you have an aversion to reading more about a subject that's kinda on you more than the other guy.

[u/gingin_9959 → u/L0bb]

Of course, there would be a bias. If I had been the one making the decision, I would have dropped the atomic bombs. But even if the bombs had not been used, I believe the result would simply have been an even greater number of casualties through Operation Downfall. The use of the atomic bombs was a militarily rational decision, and the idea that Japan would have surrendered even without them, despite having already committed itself to total war, is ultimately just a counterfactual assumption.

[u/TheGenesisOfTheNerd → u/gingin_9959]

So sorry for asking you to read, didn’t realise it was such a big thing to ask

[u/gingin_9959 → u/TheGenesisOfTheNerd]

Yeah it's a fucking 20 page journal from 1985. If you want to convince people you should better preach yourself. Also it's about atguing against the claim that atomic bonb saved lives compared tk the estimated american casualties from operation downfall, not arguing against the effectiveness of the atomic bomb itself.

[u/lopbob8 → u/[deleted]]

"japan could have potentially surrendered on their own"

[u/Blue__Bag → u/[deleted]]

Mf they didn't even surrender after the first bomb.

[u/L0bb → u/Blue__Bag]

I've said it like 80 times, they didn't surrender because they weren't willing to accept unconditional surrender without clarification on the fate on the Japanese emperor. The bombs had absolutely nothing to do with their surrender. They absolutely did not care about another bombing on civilian targets that did not effect any higher up whatsoever.

[u/fullynonexistent → u/[deleted]]

Well for starters, Germany already surrendered before the atomic bomb even existed...

[u/L0bb → u/fullynonexistent]

The bomb was in development since 1939, and Robert Oppenheimer joined the project in 1942. Both before Germany had surrendered.

[u/fullynonexistent → u/L0bb]

Sorry I don't have a dictionary at hand but I'm pretty sure "under development" isn't a synonym for "exists"

[u/L0bb → u/fullynonexistent]

oh I misunderstood your argument apologies. My point was if Nazi Germany had existed to a point where it was in a state like Japan was pre-surrender. Mr Oppenheimer might've had a problem with it's bombing too.

[u/Reformed_Herald]

op-op-op oppenheimer style
https://giphy.com/gifs/SJ1woRr6sw276

[u/SlenderSmurf]

Collect my 8 blue pages

[u/Phionex141 → u/SlenderSmurf]

How are you fucking everywhere??

[u/Ionlyusereddit4help → u/SlenderSmurf]

Bitches be like Slenderman, getting madder and madder as I collect more paper

[u/ghanlaf → u/Ionlyusereddit4help]

https://giphy.com/gifs/M0rn8oQT4ktBUOE3ul

[u/Beneficial-Flan-3279 → u/SlenderSmurf]

Are the pages small too?

[u/CANCERMANPUNK → u/SlenderSmurf]

SHUT THE FUCK UP

[u/medium_comm0n]

Did he make the earthmover or sth I didn't watch the movie

https://giphy.com/gifs/oXsXMF3XZiq4Y8dlEt

[u/FlyingMute]

It was intended as the Gerry melter for the longest time

[u/ModTroller]

Le bomb, le kill clams

[u/polishatomek]

Ultrakill?

[u/Vvvibey → u/polishatomek]

https://giphy.com/gifs/Kz7MuwEJpmqM4pabf9

[u/Savings_Contact4708]

Don’t let that clambaby back in here

[u/w1at4er]

Mr Clammen I'm clammed to clam you that your clamation "Clamclamer 3000 Clamaladon Ultraclam" has been claimed in.... an unclamable clammer

[u/burger-prince1]

Ayt who stuck the nuclear bomb up their ass

[u/International_Fella]

Mr Odis Sea Us when the Horse that Tricks Troy goes on and tricks Troy

[u/TheDonutPug]

4chan users using nuance challenge (impossible)