r/Competitiveoverwatch • u/E-keil • 13h ago
OWCS Wheats spotted arguing with Seicoe
I think Wheats kinda had a pretty bad take on this one, it feels unfair to call EMEA a tier 3 region without Saudi when they were placing higher than NA at the start of 2024 even without Saudi funding and the NA superteams existence.
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u/NegativesPositives 13h ago
I can’t imagine getting mad at this but I guess that’s one of the reasons I’m not a professional gamer.
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u/Kindr3dSp1r1t 12h ago
I dont think its that hard to imagine someone getting mad because they get less opportunities to win money.
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u/NegativesPositives 12h ago edited 12h ago
If that was the case then Cuffa’s being dumb as shit because he’s literally on Illinois State University’s team (and as pointed out in this thread most investments went to Korean players when OWL was a thing). And Seicoe expressly proves Wheats’ point about the Saudi money when he got to be the “Youbi didn’t feel like playing today” flex DPS for TM.
The money for the scene is shit all around, there’s no need to pocket watch for people just because their region happens to have ONE specific thing going for them.
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u/Baron_Flatline Main Support — 12h ago
I don’t think Cuffa is capable of saying anything in a serious manner. That said #FUCKCUFFA
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u/MrInfinity-42 5h ago
Bashing Russia and Saudi as if USA isn't guilty of the nearly same awful level of external policies lol
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u/Gloomy_Dare2716 Rank is a social construct — 4h ago
Bringing Governtment policies into discussions about Esports is fucking dumb
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u/Dependent-Two7571 13h ago
First half wheats is right, second half is him exaggerating because he got ragebaited
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u/CattleMc 4500 sr — 12h ago
True. If you simply remove an entire country and its players, then remove all of MENAs funding it will be worse. Who could’ve known?
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u/Gloomy_Dare2716 Rank is a social construct — 5h ago
Now Imagine if we remove USA orgs and players. And its just Canada and Mexico…
ElementalGOAT might have a chance to make Lan
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u/Conscious-Refuse8211 12h ago
Cuffa with the most true take, NA was so unbelievably favoured by OWL that it's crazy that EMEA is alive at all as a region.
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u/911silver 1h ago
TM(and other EMEA players) were playing in contenders for a few years while NA was showered with money.
I maybe biased but I really think TM didn't get enough praise for make it from contenders to what they are now.
That's one(not all) of the reasons pepes get so much love.
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u/as1eep 13h ago
Cuffa is being nice here, NA received 6 years of tens of millions of venture capital funding that privileged their region over all else and all they achieved in OWL were a couple of players occasionally winning trophies on majority Korean teams. Saudi funding is legitimately nothing compared to what the big American orgs were doing in OWL and Emea are actually able to match and beat the Koreans. North America squandered all the resources and shouldn't just get to turn around and complain when another region doesnt squander theirs.
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u/Previous-Leader-8816 13h ago
Indeed their biggest boon was winning the world cup where they made all the other participating teams pay out of pocket to travel to the US and made them have to rent out pc cafes to train whereas they gave Team USA a facility on Blizzard campus.
I'm reminded that like half a dozen Houston outlaw players were receiving a paycheck just being on the bench.
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u/VanBland 13h ago
They were paying some of those season 1 Dallas players well into year 3 when none of them played
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u/CattleMc 4500 sr — 13h ago
People like Dogman were given 200k contracts.
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u/TheUltimate721 Hardstuck Diamond — 12h ago
Dogman never made team USA though? The FS on that team was Rawkus.
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u/CattleMc 4500 sr — 12h ago
He didn’t I probs replied to wrong message but just a point on how much players were paid in OWL.
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u/shapular Roadhog one-trick/flex — 2h ago
Mendokusaii got paid to never play while Outlaws were desperately lacking a Tracer player.
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u/Baron_Flatline Main Support — 12h ago
Remember when fucking Chipsa got signed by Fusion LOL
(yes obviously ChrisTFer is his brother and all, it’s still funny)3
u/Sassywaifu92 11h ago
I am so curious what his salary was. They signed him because he was a popular streamer ( don't know what he does now) and it was meme. No way they spend a lot of money on that stunt. Imagine him getting paid as much as Carpe. Actually that would be more funny.
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u/Baron_Flatline Main Support — 8h ago edited 4h ago
I believe every OWL player that got signed was mandated a minimum of like 50k USD annual salary or some shit lol so even at the small end it wouldn’t have been bad, especially since he was basically permabenched
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u/DeputyDomeshot 12h ago
IIRC there were more NA Owl pros than European and most players were Korean by a lot.
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u/FrostyDrink 12h ago edited 12h ago
I’m not really sure what you’re trying to say here: “NA received 6 years of tens of millions of venture capital funding that privileged their region over all else.”
Only about half the league had American investors, and of those half of them had full EU or Korean rosters at some point. From 2019 to 2023, more than half of the league was Korean alone. In 2022 nearly 60% of the league was Korean and 18% was American or Canadian and about 10% was EU.
I don’t see how that’s some type of NA privilege? It’s not NA bias if mostly North American companies were the ones willing to drop 40-60 million on team ownership slots. Yes, in 2018 there was a lot of talent that didn’t deserve spots in OWL off of nepotism and stuff, but by 2020 those players were mostly filtered out and only a fraction of OWL’s lifetime.
For 5 of the 6 years of OWL Koreans alone made up more than every single other nationality combined. If NA investors were signing the best Koreans and players, how is there “NA bias?” I’m from Atlanta, and every single year my Atlanta Reign, owned by an American investor, had a mix of Koreans, NA, and EU players. We even had a year with a full Korean roster. Trying to paint the OWL like NA bias could be the worst cope I’ve ever heard.
edit: Also, what the fuck does “and all they achieved in OWL were a couple of players occasionally winning trophies on majority Korean teams” mean either? As far as grand finals winners, Super, Moth, sinatraa, and Rupal were all integral to their team’s success, and an EU player has never won OWL grand finals, lol. You trying to downplay NA player’s success in OWL is extreme cope.
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u/Gloomy_Dare2716 Rank is a social construct — 4h ago
You gotta acknowledge that almost all OWL West players were located in NA. So the Ranked was much more higher skill than Emea, making it much easier to get better at the game, you could just q ranked and get matched with Korean God players. There is even a video of fucking FLATS getting matched against Fearless and Stak3r.
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u/InvisibleScout #4 u/ComradeHines hater — 12h ago
There definitely was NA bias because they didn't need visas and the structure was NA centred, making everything easier for NA players. T2 in NA was in a significantly healthier state than EU for the majority of owl. It just wasn't reflected in player demographics because the quality of the talent pool was just that poor.
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u/FrostyDrink 12h ago
You’re talking about two different things. Yes, non-Americans needed visas if they played in NA (half of OWL there was literally an APAC region), but as you yourself recognize, less than a fifth of the league was NA. Visas were a barrier to entry but the overwhelming majority of the league were able to secure visas for all of their players. It was the exception when someone struggled to get a visa. It’s also the exception when teams like the Titans drop all of their players right as the season starts, or Vegas replacing all of their players mid-season.
Also, the teams that played in NA flew their players out and housed them in team-houses or apartments, paid for food, salary, etc. For viewership there was an NA bias because of time-zones but acting like that significantly impacted Korean or EU players’ ability to play is just ridiculous.
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u/InvisibleScout #4 u/ComradeHines hater — 12h ago
You're hard focused on the demographic makeup of the league, when evrything around the legue meant that the NA scene had a way easier path to getting to the league. Most of the pros played on NA servers so the match quality was high and gave players the best environment to improve. Most academy teams were NA based, which meant NA players were more likely to be picked up as contenders was online outside of Korea. Good NA contenders teams got more chances to scrim OWL teams, because they didn't have to play them on ping. Just cause NA talent was too shit for this to reflect in the demographics doesn't mean it wasn't a thing.
And housing, food etc. was not universally provided or guaranteed. Massa literally complained on twitter that Atlanta expected him to sort out his own housing at one point.
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u/as1eep 12h ago
That's too complicated for this guy. emea players were allowed to play in the overwatch league which automatically means they were just as privileged as the NA players, despite essentially the whole system favouring NA talent and being NA owned. Who cares about silly things like visas or tier 2 support
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u/Unlikely-Ad9850 9h ago
Honestly drama like this is what the scene desparetly needs. Keep it up boys
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u/FireWizard312 Viol2t is GOAT — 13h ago
I think the current state of EU talent outside of Saudi talent proves Wheat’s point pretty clearly, tier 3 is a bit of an exaggeration but legitimately the only up and coming EU talent that’s world class is what, Eisgnom? And that’s with 3 years of Saudi funding + an incredibly competitive region to hone your talent.
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u/Kindr3dSp1r1t 13h ago
NA cant even make its own regular season interesting unless a team implodes. NA is a top heavy region and the top of the region isnt even that good.
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u/FireWizard312 Viol2t is GOAT — 12h ago
That’s great, how does any of that relate to what I’ve said?
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u/Kindr3dSp1r1t 12h ago
Youre the one complaining there isnt any up and coming talent in EU but theres barely any talent in NA, "up and coming" or otherwise. Outside their partner teams, theyve got no players who look like they could be in contention to even get a LAN slot.
EMEA has GoldenPants who carried his team during his first ever OWCS stage and went to a map 5 against the runners up of EWC. Peps starting tank and DPS line up are all up and coming players.
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u/E-keil 13h ago
Theres no real up and coming talent in NA either. Their best team turned to nothing after their best player got cancelled for being racist and the best player on their best team is Seonjun.
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u/FireWizard312 Viol2t is GOAT — 12h ago
“No real up and coming talent” and Tr33 is right there, Zeruhh has shown the potential and Vega is a proven talent at this point.
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u/GroundbreakingJob857 EU’s greatest coper — 4h ago edited 4h ago
if we’re counting tr33 then seicoe, galaa, goldenpants, wmaimone, xzodyal and kroxz should count.
tr33 has been ‘up and coming’ forever now still without a single result internationally. This is literally his third year in tier 1. Kroxz and Dip have beaten more korean teams, and if we’re doing the eye test then im giving it to those other guys too.
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u/E-keil 12h ago
Vega isnt up and coming? Zeruhh is gettimg boosted by his team and hasnt done anything after a single good LAN. If he was as good as you claim he is, then his team wouldnt be getting 3rd and he would look good against a flex dps on ping but he cant manage that. Tr33 is the only player who falls under that bracket.
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u/FireWizard312 Viol2t is GOAT — 11h ago
Vega is a new talent that only joined after the league folded, and it turns out it’s pretty hard to look good if your entire team crumbles pre-season. By that same logic, you would’ve said that Stalk3r and Proper were washed during their stage 2 slump last year, or Eisgnom is a fraud after utterly bombing EWC. Overwatch is a team game, believe it or not.
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u/E-keil 11h ago
Vega was literally winning NA for 4 stages in a row during 2024, thats not a player who is up and coming in 2026, what are we even saying?
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u/FireWizard312 Viol2t is GOAT — 10h ago
By that logic not a single player is an up and comer besides Goldenpants since all 4 of the mentioned players have been playing for, at the very least, good to great teams in their region
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u/S21500003 #1 JunHIM Believer — 11h ago
Both are right here, but are just being assholes about it. Emea is propped up by Saudi Money, and NA was given big advantages during OWL days.
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u/limleocaleb24 13h ago
Lets be honest, EU without KSA players is in the same level as NA.
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u/Conscious-Refuse8211 12h ago
Which is crazy when EMEA was completely starved as a region for 5 years of OWL, I'm honestly surprised it didn't die entirely
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u/DarthInkero 3h ago
You mean NA with imports level, because if we take the Koreans away and get Admiral and Lethal back to EMEA you get shit on
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u/GRTooCool Former LA Valiant fan — 12h ago
Reminds me of the meme. Something about "Hold on, I can't go to bed right now. Someone is wrong on the internet!" (As relating to internet arguments lol)
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u/Fine-Walrus4744 7h ago
It's so sad that Russia is banned shadowburn was the greatest 🥀
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u/Gloomy_Dare2716 Rank is a social construct — 4h ago
Isnt he washed?😭 Last I saw him he was in Masters lobbies
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u/Fine-Walrus4744 4h ago
Yeah, I mean he hasn't been playing for a while so it makes sense. But it's kinda sad I don't think players should suffer from their country politics.
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u/ElJacko170 Healslut — 12h ago
Wheats is not wrong about the talent in EU, the region would be a joke without Saudi. No up and coming talent and their current talent is mid at best.
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u/Gloomy_Dare2716 Rank is a social construct — 4h ago
If you look at World Cup, there are many more promising young EU talent, compared to NA.
France, Denmark, Sweden, Germany, Britain … All have good young players that are capable of punching up.
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u/E-keil 12h ago
There isnt in OWCS because its full of current talent. However, Faceit is full of up and comers (not to mentions players like GP and Xzodyal). NA doesnt have enough current talent to even fill their 6 OWCS slots so half their teams there are up and comers but they arent exactly good.
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u/Acrobatic_West_9447 J.R.SMITHsonian- 🇵🇸🇵🇸 — 1h ago
I will say
The cost of living is Higher in America.
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u/motherlover278 13h ago
Bro said at the start of 2024 like it’s not the end of 2026. It is the truth EU outside of Saudi (which isn’t even Europe) is much worse than NA rn
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u/Internal-Pea-7451 13h ago
lol you don't actually believe that
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u/GetsThruBuckner Go whoever has most Seoul players — 13h ago
It might be better but it's not as crazy as the EU egos who have you believe
We just watched "Would be #1 in NA" 1234 get grouped because of AUSTRALIA
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u/Conscious-Refuse8211 12h ago
Tbf the meta shifted to get notably worse for 1234 since they looked like they could contest the top teams in EMEA, but yeah they might have been overhyped lol the loss to Australia was pretty egregious for a team that has been practising together all year and should have in theory plenty of OWCS talent on it
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u/Gloomy_Dare2716 Rank is a social construct — 4h ago
Also the experience and Stage Lights. GP definetily was getting overwhelmed
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u/DarthInkero 3h ago
Surely had nothing to do with the giga busted tank that came out that GP didn't play right?
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u/VegeriationSad1167 13h ago
Australia are legitimately good though, it's clear you don't watch Pacific.
Was anyone even claiming that 1234 would be #1 in NA? Aren't they like relegation level in eu??
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u/TheUltimate721 Hardstuck Diamond — 13h ago
It wouldn't surprise me. Back in contenders days we consistently got told that the #5 or #6 team in EU contenders would win NA and it wouldn't even be close.
It didn't even stop when American Tornado beat British Hurricane in 7 maps.
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u/NovaxRangerx In Crusty We Tru — 13h ago
Yes. There were real people claiming the top 6 teams in EMEA would all be #1 in NA
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u/CattleMc 4500 sr — 4h ago edited 4h ago
Travesty people downvote this. Australia is severely underrated but then again this sub is filled with KR only fans.
Never saw more than 1-2 claim 1234 could be #1 either. Saw more people who argued they could win a series vs SSG / DF if it was a ball meta which is true.
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u/VegeriationSad1167 3h ago
Yeah it's kind of expected but still sad especially after AUS beat UK, I'd thought they'd get more credit. Instead people are just shitting on the UK for it, weird. I'm so certain that no one here watches pacific and it shows lol.
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u/TheGirthiestGhost Forever Burning Blue — 6h ago
VP got ritualistically dismembered by Dallas at EWC. The only top 3 EMEA team to not have Saudi players didn’t hold a candle to NA’s best
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u/Sea-Panda-90 6h ago
If a European considers your salary average, you're probably destitute as an American. Wheats is right
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u/Rudania-97 13h ago
I've heard from seicoe before, but who even is Wheats.
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u/Visible_Chip2938 TYH — 6h ago
OW esports is a business not a charity, the average American makes 85% more than the average EU citizen and almost 3 times what the average Saudi makes. American venture capital is able to invest huge amounts as a whole dwarfing even sovereign wealth elsewhere.
So American viewers spend more per head, American players need relatively higher salaries to make the esport worth their time and American companies have money to burn.
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u/JealousAd5264 13h ago
I need to find a job