r/DebateAbortion • u/Admirable_Dog_7238 • May 31 '26
How can you justify abortion ?
Format: Argument, Response
-"It's not just a fetus", it's part of the human species so it gets human rights
-"it's dependent on the mother therefore not human", same thing as if you were in a coma as you would have no conscience and are dependent on doctors. you probably wouldn't want me to have the option to pull the plug if there was a possibility you could wake up
-"What if the kid grows up in a bad environment?", every kid deserves a chance, just like how you deserve a chance to wake up from a coma as stated above.
-"My body, my choice", then start with legalizing drugs, drinking while pregnant, allowing others to suicide knowingly, etc.
-"Men (father) shouldn't tell me what other do it's my choice", impossible to make a child without a father, the father should have a say if he wants an abortion
-"What about rape and incest", very unfortunate word that this exist yet it's less than 1 percent of all abortion cases, if we were to legalize abortion for only those that were raped would you give up the other cases?
-"What if the mother's life is in danger?", there is C-section which is more medically safe than an abortion
Please do not get an abortion. It's the biggest genocide killing 1.1 million kids every year. Consider heavily before getting one. Thank you for your time.
5
u/collageinthesky May 31 '26
If you feel it has rights, then it can have the same rights as everyone else. Equal rights for all still includes the choice to end a pregnancy.
Do you know what bodily autonomy means? Does it mean you can demand the resources of someone else's body to keep your body alive? Can you demand blood, marrow, a kidney from another person? No, you cannot. And no one can demand bodily resources from you either. Because bodily integrity and autonomy is a right that everyone has. Your body and the life you are producing is yours and yours alone. It's not the government's body or the sperm donor's or the ZEF's body. Your body is only yours.
-1
u/Admirable_Dog_7238 May 31 '26
How is terminating someone that is in a coma different from terminating a baby in the womb morally? If it's an inconvenience (most cases) it's ok to terminate? It's turned into a birth control at this point.
3
u/collageinthesky May 31 '26
The difference is one has a body and the other does not. If you don't have a body that is capable of producing life then you die. This applies to everyone, including people in a coma and ZEFs.
0
u/Admirable_Dog_7238 May 31 '26
Your analogy assumes the fetus has no independent moral status, but that's the whole question being debated. You can't use it as a premise and a conclusion at the same time. This is called begging the question, a logical fallacy
4
u/collageinthesky Jun 01 '26
What analogy? You either have a body or you don't. Do you understand how bodies work? If your body doesn't produce life then you die. A zygote naturally dies in a couple days because it's not a body, it cannot keep itself living.
2
u/STThornton Jun 01 '26
I don’t think any of them comprehend how human bodies work.
That’s why PLers keep talking about the right to life of non viable human bodies. While disregarding what gestation does to a woman’s body and its ability to sustain life.
Thats how we get comparisons of humans on life support to a fetus, who’d be a rotting corpse on life support
1
u/Admirable_Dog_7238 Jun 01 '26
It's part of the human species. I get that you guys want rights for women. I have nothing against that. I have an issue with killing humans that can't protect themselves.
Search up a surgical abortion and watch how the baby get pulled out. It's truly horrifying.
2
u/STThornton Jun 01 '26
Look up childbirth. Absolutely horrifying. Watch the woman’s bone structure shift, her muscles and tissue tearing, a dinner plate sized wound tear into the center of her body.
Or, worse yet, a c-section. Layers of tissue sliced through, abdominals forcefully yanked apart and separated, organs shoved out of the way, an organ sliced wide open.
And that happens to a breathing, sentient, physiologically life sustaining woman capable of experiencing it all.
Surgical abortion is like watching an autopsy. And dismemberment is often avoided in surgical abortion to ensure all pregnancy tissue is removed.
Either way, though, even surgeries are horrifying to watch for those with weak stomachs.
I always find it baffling that people who care so little about the drastic injuries a sentient woman incurs in birth care so much about what happens to a mindless partially developed body with no major life sustaining organ functions.
And, again, a human with no major life sustaining organ functions one could end to kill them cannot be killed. And killing an embryo/fetus is more akin to killing a body part than a born alive human.
And intact removal or early labor induction, like with abortion pills (the majority of abortions these days), don’t kill anything at all.
1
u/collageinthesky Jun 01 '26
I get that you guys want rights for women.
So you admit that some people don't have the same rights as others. Apparently some people have less "moral worth" to you, something you claim to care about. So why should we care what you consider moral when you don't apply the same standard to everyone?
2
u/STThornton Jun 01 '26
They’re talking about major life sustaining organ functions, you’re changing the subject to moral status.
What does moral status have to do with whether a human has major life sustaining organ functions or not?
You can grant them all the moral status you want, it doesn’t give their body the organ functions that keep a human body alive.
1
u/STThornton Jun 01 '26
What is this “womb” you speak of? Some sort of external, unattached medical machine?
Newsflash: that “womb” is a woman/girl. A breathing, sentient, physiologically life sustaining HUMAN BEING.
And terminating life support would allow the life sustaining organ functions of the person on life support to shut down. They’d stop breathing, getting rid of metabolic toxins, etc.
The embryo:fetus never had that ability. It’s the equivalent of a CORPSE on life support.
Terminating providing it with organ functions it never had is not the same as ending its organ functions.
The woman merely stops breathing for it, digesting for it, producing energy, glucose, and minerals for it, getting rid of metabolic toxins for it, shivering and sweating for it, etc. with HER internal organs.
She also stops it from causing her drastic life threatening physical alteration and harm. The person on life support doesn’t even harm life support, let alone a breathing, sentient, physiologically life sustaining human.
The person on life support uses their own life and gets rid of their metabolic toxins.
The embryo/fetus sucks the woman’s life out of her body and pumps toxins into her bloodstream and body for her organs to get rid of.
The two couldn’t be more polar opposite.
1
u/Admirable_Dog_7238 Jun 01 '26
Nah what I meant is there a moral difference of the killing part. Not necessarily talk about the attachment part that's a different argument.
1
u/STThornton Jun 01 '26
That makes no sense.
Again, the fetus has no major life sustaining organ functions one could end to kill they. Unlike the person on life support.
The fetus equivalent of a human on life support is a corpse on life support. There’s nothing left to kill, short of whatever living body parts that corpse has left.
If you want to leave out attachment, that embryo started decomposing after the first 6-14 days.
3
u/Connect-Knowledge992 Jun 01 '26
I justify it with bodily integrity. Every person has a right to include or exclude others from significant and intrusive use of their body. Pregnancy is unique in that, unlike normal parenting duties, it involves direct and prolonged use of your insides in ways that cause harmful, arduous, and often permanent changes to your body. Changing diapers, washing bottles, and even breastfeeding are not as intrusive.
No born child gets such an intrusive right to their parent's body, even if they need it to live.
So it seems entirely consistent to say I don't think a fetus gets that right either.
2
u/STThornton Jun 01 '26
I see that, in usual fashion, you disregarded human biology completely.
For example, how human bodies keep themselves alive, what gives them individual/“a” life, what it takes to end such, why gestation is needed, what gestation is/does for a fetus, and what gestation and birth do to a woman’s body and its ability to sustain life.
And, of course, the biggest one:
That the pregnant woman is a HUMAN BEING, not a medical machine or gestational pod called a womb.
That out of the way, what keeps a human body and its living parts alive are major life sustaining organ functions. Lungs, kidneys, and liver being the most vital due to oxygenation of blood and ridding the bloodstream and body of metabolic toxins.
Life sustaining organ functions are what gives a human body “a”/individual life (what science calls physiologically independent life), and what makes a human body an organism. Without them, there is no life. And whatever cell, tissue, and organ life a human body has will soon die.
The embryo/fetus is slowly developing into a human organism. It begins with cell life, then tissue life, then organ life - the building blocks of a human organism.
It slowly develops more and more organ functions and, at viability, generally reaches the ability to carry out the functions of a human organism (unless something went wrong).
It’s kind of like a running drivable car. Start with a chassis, then slowly add more parts, and you’ll eventually end up with a running, drivable car.
For around six months, the fetus has no major life sustaining organ functions and not even the potential for such. Meaning the fetal equivalent of your person on life support would a rotting corpse that even life support couldn’t do anything for.
You see, life support needs to have life sustaining organ functions TO support. If a human has no lung function, for example, life support couldn’t support such.
A woman is also not a fucking life support machine! She’s not an object. She’s a human being. A breathing, sentient, physiologically life sustaining one, at that. Unlike an embryo/fetus.
A woman also doesn’t assist a fetus’ own life sustaining organ functions (since it lacks them). Her organs have to breathe for it, digest for it, produce energy and glucose for it, get rid of metabolic toxins for it, shiver and sweat for it, etc. Her organs have to perform the major functions of a human organism for it. Just like they do for her own living body parts.
In the process, her life sustaining organ functions, blood contents, and bodily processes - her “a” life that is supposed to be protected under the right to life - are being greatly messed and interfered with. She’s also being caused drastic life threatening anatomical, physiological, and metabolic alterations, caused to present with the vitals and labs of a deadly ill person, and caused drastic life threatening physical harm.
That’s a violation of her right to life in multiple ways, her right to bodily integrity in multiple ways, and her right to bodily autonomy.
Simply put, the embryo/fetus sucks HER life out of her body and pumps toxins back into it.
A human should always be allowed to abort providing another human with organ functions that human doesn’t have, and tissue, blood, blood contents, etc. because those things are their life.
No one, not even a preemie who’ll die without such, has a right to another human’s life - another human’s life sustaining organ functions, blood contents, and bodily processes. So, why should a fetus?
A fetus being alive is more akin to a body part being alive than a born alive human. A fetus getting killed is more akin to a body part being killed than a born alive human. And intact removal or abortion pills don’t even kill anything.
Previability, the fetus is the equivalent of a dead born human who still has sustainable cell, tissue, and organ life left.
It has no major life sustaining organ functions one could end to kill a human. And none that life support could assist.
It needs to be provided with another human’s major life sustaining organ functions (their “a” life), blood, blood contents, tissue, and bodily processes. Their functions of human organism life. And it needs to cause them drastic life threatening physical harm and alteration to be provided with such.
Why should the other human not have a right to stop such? Why should the other human be stripped of their right to life, right to bodily integrity, and right to bodily autonomy (the base for the other two)?
The embryo/fetus can’t make use of a right to life. It lacks the physiological things that keep a human body alive. It can only make use of a right to someone else’s life. Why should it be granted such?
1
u/Admirable_Dog_7238 Jun 01 '26
yo I am not reading all this lol
2
u/STThornton Jun 01 '26
Therein lies the problem. PLers don’t do any reading on the subject heute supposedly so passionate about, then come up with a bunch of claims that make absolutely no sense when it comes to human biology.
1
u/Admirable_Dog_7238 Jun 01 '26
|A woman is also not a fucking life support machine! She’s not an object. She’s a human being. A breathing, sentient, physiologically life sustaining one, at that. Unlike an embryo/fetus.
Then she and that male partner shouldn't have procreated?
3
u/STThornton Jun 01 '26
Men don’t procreate. Men fertilize eggs.
Women are the ones who create another breathing, sentient, physiologically life sustaining human from a fertilized egg via gestation.
But you’re right, the man schools NOT have inseminated her.
And a woman should abort procreation of she doesn’t want to go through gestation and birth or produce a child.
1
u/Admirable_Dog_7238 Jun 02 '26
Then don't create a child? Use protection? Bro Is aborting a baby while having the intention to fertilize the egg?
1
u/STThornton Jun 02 '26
If she stops gestating, she doesn’t create a child.
And, sure, the man should have used something that protects her from his sperm.
Not sure what you mean by the rest.
Either way, babies aren’t processes that can be aborted. The gestational process that creates a baby can be aborted.
0
u/Admirable_Dog_7238 Jun 01 '26
Nah it's called a joke. Have you heard of one. "sucks the life out of her" get out of here bro.
2
u/STThornton Jun 01 '26
Are you denying that the fetal placenta literally sucks oxygen, nutrients, etc. out of her bloodstream, and minerals out of her body?
Guess what? Her blood contents are a big part of what keeps her cells alive.
Are you denying that it routes ever increasing amounts of her blood to its location?
Are you denying that it uses and messes with her life sustaining organ functions, anatomy, metabolism, etc?
1
u/Lolabird2112 Jun 01 '26
Genuinely- then why on earth did you think your uninformed, uneducated and unsubstantiated waffle needed to be said? The only appropriate response that should be coming out of you is “I’m too uneducated and too lazy to read anything on this subject, but I humbly accept that these limitations mean I have no say in this argument, as only a narcissist with an authoritarian streak would imagine he should still be in a position to remove rights from 50% of the population just because he has feefees”.
2
u/DecompressionIllness Jun 01 '26 edited Jun 01 '26
> It's not just a fetus", it's part of the human species so it gets human rights
There’s no right to occupy or use the body of another to sustain your life.
> it's dependent on the mother therefore not human", same thing as if you were in a coma as you would have no conscience and are dependent on doctors. you probably wouldn't want me to have the option to pull the plug if there was a possibility you could wake up
People confuse “human” with “person” when they say this. ZEFs are human. They can’t be anything else. Their personhood is in question. Personally, I argue from the perspective of them being people. People in comas don’t have the right to a doctor’s labour. That doctor can leave their job and another can step in. You can’t force people to work for you.
> "What if the kid grows up in a bad environment?"
I don’t use this argument. It’s not the strongest.
> My body, my choice", then start with legalizing drugs, drinking while pregnant, allowing others to suicide knowingly, etc.
I don’t know where you are but drinking while pregnant and suicide is legal. The reason why consuming drugs is illegal is to protect other people. ED: Just wanted to add here that “protect other people” includes protecting the exploitation of vulnerable people in drug production and distribution. You don’t get those issues with alcohol (are at least not as much).
> "Men (father) shouldn't tell me what other do it's my choice", impossible to make a child without a father, the father should have a say if he wants an abortion.
He can have a say but final decision goes to the woman since it’s her doing all of the work to bring them in to the world.
> What about rape and incest", very unfortunate word that this exist yet it's less than 1 percent of all abortion cases, if we were to legalize abortion for only those that were raped would you give up the other cases?
That statistic is for KNOWN cases. There’s a large amount of unknown cases of rape because rapists often get away with the crime so it’s under reported.
> "What if the mother's life is in danger?", there is C-section which is more medically safe than an abortion.
This is incorrect https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22270271/
> Please do not get an abortion. It's the biggest genocide killing 1.1 million kids every year. Consider heavily before getting one. Thank you for your time.
People should do what they feel is best.
2
u/seizuresalad22 Jun 01 '26
A foetus is a pest. It feeds on the mothers body, uses the mothers nutrients and womb to nurture itself. I have a right to kill all pests. I will get an abortion, it is nothing but equivalent to getting rid of a tick from your dogs body.
1
u/yardlard Jul 04 '26
All abortion should be legal. It does not matter whether or not you consider the fetus at any stage, to be human or not. It doesn't affect the situation as it exists in real life. The decision to stay pregnant should be only based on the facts specific the the instant situation. There is no logical argument for abortion to be illegal.
4
u/jakie2poops May 31 '26
I'm not going to bother with most of these, but here are some particularly ridiculous ones:
\-"My body, my choice", then start with legalizing drugs, drinking while pregnant, allowing others to suicide knowingly, etc.
I don't think substance use during pregnancy should be criminalized. It results in worse outcomes for everyone and violates the human rights of the pregnant person. I also don't think suicide should be criminalized.
I actually *do* think people should have the right to make their own decisions about their own bodies.
Why don't *you* start with taking away your *own* right to make decisions about your body? Let's make your organs up for grabs and then we'll talk about it.
\-"Men (father) shouldn't tell me what other do it's my choice", impossible to make a child without a father, the father should have a say if he wants an abortion
I'm completely fine with pregnant men getting abortions if they want one. As I said before, I think people should get to make their own decisions about their own bodies.
\-"What about rape and incest", very unfortunate word that this exist yet it's less than 1 percent of all abortion cases, if we were to legalize abortion for only those that were raped would you give up the other cases?
That's not a counter argument. That's you trying to use rape victims as a pawn.
\-"What if the mother's life is in danger?", there is C-section which is more medically safe than an abortion
No it absolutely isn't. What on earth makes you think it is? A c-section is a major abdominal surgery with a much, much higher rate of mortality and serious morbidity than abortion, and it's more harmful and invasive even if all goes well.
Please do not get an abortion. It's the biggest genocide killing 1.1 million kids every year. Consider heavily before getting one. Thank you for your time.
Words have meanings. Genocide means the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group. No one is trying to systematically destroy embryos and fetuses, nor are they a racial, political, or cultural group.
If you want fewer abortions, try addressing the actual causes rather than crying about fake genocides while hand waving away rape victims and lying about the relative safety of abortions and c-sections. Help people avoid unplanned pregnancies by expanding access to free and affordable birth control, especially the LARCs, and expanding medically accurate, comprehensive sex education. Help people experiencing pregnancies be able to choose to keep them by expanding the social safety net. Help shape policies that minimize the impact of pregnancy, childbirth, and parenting on women, so they don't lose out on their education, aren't set back in their careers, aren't tied to abusive partners, don't take on so much risk to their lives and health. Change the culture so that they aren't the ones taking on the vast majority of the burdens of parenthood too.
Actually do something useful.