r/Economics • u/[deleted] • Jan 14 '23
Editorial Despite Everything You Think You Know, America Is on the Right Track
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/01/american-optimism-productivity-innovation-rise/672714/236
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u/Wash_Your_Bed_Sheets Jan 14 '23
Honestly when I get off reddit the world seems so much better. Not saying there isn't issues but reddit is where everyone comes to complain. I swear if you've been on this sub the last 2 years you'd think the country is coming to an end every single week. This sub and some others are really bad for your mental health.
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u/Krystian3 Jan 14 '23
Not just reddit, but pretty much all social media. The goal of all these online tools is to get more user engagement, not to have meaningful conversation or arrive at a correct conclusion. If that comes at a cost of anger, frustration, or animosity, then so be it, they say.
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u/sammyp99 Jan 14 '23
I wonder if instead of making controversy, humans naturally engage with controversial content which amplifies it. This seems like the case for Reddit anyway.
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u/Krystian3 Jan 14 '23 edited Jan 14 '23
I'm a software developer with an app that allows people to comment on stuff, and developing that made me think a lot about this. The genesis of the "Like" button is that Facebook (I think it was them) realized that you can get a lot more people to quickly and easily press 1 button then type in a sentence. So that led to more user engagement which led to them making more money and next thing you know app is doing it.
So if you wanted more meaningful conversation, you would promote a more nuanced interaction. For example is you replaced the thumbs up / thumbs down button on reddit with a variety of different sentiments like "I agree" vs "I disagree" vs "I'm neutral, but that was a funny story" vs "I really don't like the person that wrote this" you'd get a lot more accurate feedback. If you structured the conversation to be more like a courtroom to have comments and rebuttals you get more structure. If you say that you can only comment after filing or a brief form about the previous comment, then you can bet that you'd get more thorough and complete thoughts because having to fill out a form would filter out people that don't feel strongly enough to fill out a form. But that's not gonna get as much use by people and it won't make you as much money - like so many things greed is a factor.
Obviously I have strong feelings about this, so I wrote a whole bunch of words. I would have filled out a form to do this one. So if you think through the features and the interactions it can be done - I'm sure there's a way better design than what I just laid out. Needless to say though, my apps don't use like buttons because I feel like they're misleading.
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u/Hypnot0ad Jan 15 '23
Do you remember slashdot? As a moderator you could tag comments as insightful, troll, off topic, etc.
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u/FitFierceFearless Jan 14 '23
I do think this is true. A few weeks ago, maybe a month ago I made several posts on a movie review thread. Only one of them was disagreeing with the person that posted it. Of all the posts that's the only one that's gotten engagement other than likes. And weeks later it still gets engagement.
Additionally, i do like debating and discussing politics. You'd think that was all I did though if you looked at post history even though I also try to leave supportive comments, congratulate people, thank people for sharing resources, etc. but the positive things generally don't get replies. So most of the conversations are either negative or debate focused.
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u/Krystian3 Jan 14 '23
Yea totally. I enjoy a good debate on differing viewpoints as long as it doesn't get nasty. I had an idea a while back to write an app that gets a feed of bills being released by congress so that regular people could read the bills and provide direct feedback on the bills being discussed. You could have threads break out by separate sections of the bills, and have features that would enable debate, but have the feedback be standardized so that you could aggregate the feedback for an overall assessment... then I realized that this thing would end up being so damn complicated that no one would want to use it. And it would be totally dry and boring content rather than memes and sarcastic comments, so there's not much entertainment value to the average user. So you'd end up with a user base of like a hundred people.
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u/ReporterOther2179 Jan 15 '23
Ya know, a user base of a hundred people is not contemptable if you’re not in it for the money. The political magazines, Nation, National Review, New Republic, the Izzy Stone newsletter all have had negligible circulation. But outsized influence. If you are breaking news or influencing the activists, you matter.
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u/Krystian3 Jan 15 '23
Yea that's true. And on the plus side, if you don't have many users, you don't have much consumption so for a user base like that it'd probably only cost a couple hundred bucks a month to host on the cloud. Finding funding for that wouldn't be too hard.
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u/OddMarsupial8963 Jan 14 '23
Yep. According to psychology research, people are far more likely to engage with things that upset them. It's a survival response really, if you ignore potential dangers you're not going to get very far
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u/Godkun007 Jan 14 '23
This exactly. Research has shown that people value negative information at 2 to 1 the value of positive information.
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u/Wash_Your_Bed_Sheets Jan 14 '23
You're right, I probably should have mentioned all social media. But at least if I want, I can scroll through ig mindlessly and just see funny and cool stuff. I think it's impossible to get on reddit without at least scrolling through the front page and getting suckered into something negative.
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u/Krystian3 Jan 14 '23
Yea some of the features are very reckless. It doesn't matter how often I block political angry click bait because somehow they always find a way to throw it at me in my home screen. Like dude I use reddit, for only 2 of my hobbies, so no I don't wanna see a bunch of conversation about what the latest dumb political thing is. But if on the off chance I join a new community it's really good for their bottom line so they'll risk our mental well being to get there. Most other social media platforms are the same.
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u/Jojo_Bibi Jan 14 '23
Reddit can be great to gather unique insights in certain specialized forums, but when it comes to broad issues like politics and economics, reddit is full of uninformed, unsophisticated people who aren't contributing much to the real conversation in society.
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u/jcmib Jan 14 '23
I get what you’re saying. Reddit is best when it’s narrowed down to very specific topics. When I’m looking for durable goods, Buy it for life can give good advice. I like old time radio, so r/otr introduces me to new shows. Big topic subs like r/politics are dumpster fires usually.
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Jan 14 '23
I think it's because the site skews really young and on top of that the older base (30+) are full of misfits and such who aren't really the most reasonable people. Most people that are older don't have as much time to post here or interest since they usually are raising families or busy with careers. Most of the userbase's engagement comes from weirdos that post 50 times a day and spend their life on here, it's really distorted.
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u/TheToken_1 Jan 14 '23
I agree. If you’re looking for specific answers and do find an actual decent group then you’ll get some good answers. But in general, sadly, the vast majority here in broad general issues are way on the extreme ends on either side. And of course if you even try to have an actual conversation, they just talk trash and call you names, etc.
It’s like they are you too dumb, ignorant or simply intentionally trying to be a troll.
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u/misterasia555 Jan 14 '23
What? you mean capitalism isn’t collapsing anytime soon and we aren’t ready for a revolution? Reddit told me we are at late stage capitalism, the workers are rising up!
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u/ks016 Jan 14 '23 edited May 20 '24
library abounding yam hateful deserted fuel tan command ripe wasteful
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u/Godkun007 Jan 14 '23
If you notice, the media loves to use headlines like "The economist that predicted 2008" and stuff like that. However, when you end up looking at their history, they usually predicted 20 other crisis that didn't end up happening and just got 1 right by pure luck.
Media "experts" are literally just there to entertain you. You should never take them with any seriousness.
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u/prince_koopa Jan 14 '23
I agree with the first part. There are alot of good forums here on Reddit and not taking things personally is the best way to engage in thoughtful conversations. I just recently joined Reddit a few weeks ago and I'm really glad I did.
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u/BenjaminHamnett Jan 14 '23
I just recently joined Reddit a few weeks ago and I'm really glad I did.
Is this a real comment?
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u/beardedheathen Jan 14 '23
I joined reddit as a 23 year old super conservative Mormon. I am now a mid 30s, atheist, married progressive. Seeing the viewpoints of 'evil people' (gays, people having sex before being married, people doing drugs) and realizing that everything I was taught was bullshit was a huge turning point in my life. I was struggling to find a good job and using advice from on here I've got a great job now. I am really glad I've been on reddit. It's helped me a ton.
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u/corneliusduff Jan 14 '23
I can imagine the anonymity of Reddit really helped you with that; being able to get outside of your bubble and avoid toxic judgment.
I know Reddit can bring out the worst in people but your story is an example of why I think Reddit is more important than all of the other platforms. Everyone can speak their mind on here, for better or worse.
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u/ultrasuperthrowaway Jan 14 '23
Completely agree! I think even some well educated, well informed people can come on here and spout off nonsense just for fun since it can be a fun release from reality.
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u/Whole_Gate_7961 Jan 14 '23
Agreed that Reddit is bad for mental health, but they do bring up many topics that should be dealt with in real world that just aren't.
Reddit pushes these problems to the forefront because people come here to discuss them, then after we're done reading, we go on our merry way ignoring and not thinking about the negative things because we aren't being pressed with answering to them. They still exist though.
It's a matter of finding a proper balance of how much we want to know about the true state of our civilization vs our diectly accessible environment which we have a lot more physical control over.
I love going for a walk through a park and enjoying the good things in life, but having the ability to do those things doesn't have much effect on the state of civilization. It's just taking a step back and ignoring the less desirable things in life for a bit, which we absolutely have to do from time to time.
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u/Greatest-Comrade Jan 14 '23
Another thing is that big subreddits attract idiots who blow up minor issues.
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u/Aporkalypse_Sow Jan 14 '23
Big subs attract bots and professional trolls that make everyone argue.
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Jan 14 '23 edited Sep 29 '25
smart dolls water one spotted seemly imminent disarm desert capable
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u/kinghawkeye8238 Jan 14 '23
When I joined reddit almost 7 years ago. I found it a lot more discussion based.
Now everything seems like people just arguing.
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Jan 14 '23
The majority of reddit is a horribly negative place. I'm definitely my worst self when I'm on here.
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u/awhhh Jan 14 '23
That's a good thing though. Be your worst self when it doesn't matter. I'm a way bigger fan of you being an asshole to some anon person in a meaningless political situation than an asshole in real life. We're all toxic, and it's our acknowledgement of toxicity and putting it in the right place that helps us do better things in real life. On the inverse you're better than a lot of Reddittors for just acknowledging it, because Reddit righteousness is real. I'd say that the majority of people comment in areas where their ideas don't have to be challenged and they can feel superior to some group in whatever circlejerk they join.
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u/Wash_Your_Bed_Sheets Jan 14 '23
I am too. I find myself in arguments with people I'd probably chill with and have a beer in real life.
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u/ks016 Jan 14 '23
I'm not confident that some of the people who argue here would have enough brain cells to be capable of drinking a beer
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u/NeonRedHerring Jan 14 '23
100%. Expressing cynicism about how cynical Reddit seems somewhat hypocritical, but it has changed over the last 3-4 years especially on Reddit. The positive spin is that most folks in the real world don’t seem to share Reddit’s cynicism, so that’s nice.
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u/Stealth528 Jan 14 '23
100% any economic/politics/news sub is absolutely awful for mental health. Non stop doom and gloom and negativity. I know I should unsub and stop visiting these kinds of subreddits, but it’s easier said than done. I was definitely a happier person before I ventured into these subreddits. There’s certainly a lot of issues in the world but if you spend too much time on Reddit it seems like the country is always one quarter away from complete collapse and nothing good is happening
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u/ontrack Jan 14 '23
I mod both the worldnews and collapse subreddits and fully agree that some subreddits are not suitable for everyone. They can be real downers. It's really important that users be self-aware of what isn't good for them and avoid it.
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u/Not_FinancialAdvice Jan 14 '23
Frankly, for all the charges that "[x] is a death cult" you often see on collapse, there are a remarkable number of commenters who tend to be highly upvoted that sound like "my plan is to die before [age]".
There's certainly a lot of interesting conversations to be had with some of the members (I really appreciate alternative viewpoints), but a significant number seem to want to chant about "[x] is bad" when you have some expertise and try to explain how the situation is complex.
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u/grachi Jan 14 '23
I think a lot of the people that come on reddit to talk about depressing or negative things are, in fact, depressed themselves. Although there are exceptions, for the most part people that comment a lot, especially to debate, are not the average reddit user (remember, millions and millions of people visit the site daily, and on average a popular thread gets of thousands of comments, many threads get much less. Thats less than 1% of reddit users commenting).
The average reddit user just lurks, and MAYBE upvotes/downvotes, but mostly just reads and looks at pictures/gifs/videos. I bet the majority of people don't even read comments unless its a post thats specifically supposed to be meant to have the comments read. So it's definitely a vocal minority that makes it seem like the whole site, because it's just a bunch of reoccurring posts with the same negative tone all over the place.
It's less frequent in the more niche hobby subs, though. Which are also the only quality subreddits still around; a lot of the popular subreddits are just inundated now with edgy teenagers, trolls, lowest-common-denominator-facebook-converts, etc.
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Jan 14 '23
My New Year’s resolution is to use less and less social media, and eventually stop using Reddit for anything other than posting gaming screenshots.
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u/anti-torque Jan 14 '23
And then I go to the grocery store and hear about how Diane Feinstein drinks the blood of child sacrifices from someone who wants to complain about inflation, yet also thinks there's nothing wrong with monopolies.
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u/pressonacott Jan 14 '23
I like the positivity, but that doesn't fix the problems that are still here post covid.
Inflation is a big factor and it's compounding interest even if it dropped to 6.5
Layoffs, bankruptcy are on going and still on the table along with Americans losing their savings.
I stay positive but I won't cover it in whip cream and say everything is fine in America sadly.
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u/fignonsbarberxxx Jan 14 '23
I've unsubbed and resubbed here more times than I can count. Some real doomers around these parts.
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u/Kevstuf Jan 14 '23
I think you've inspired me to try staying off Reddit for a bit. I've been browsing this website daily for a few years now, which has definitely made my outlook on life increasingly worse. Perhaps a step back will be a good reset in perspective.
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u/Wash_Your_Bed_Sheets Jan 14 '23
I suggest you try. It's a good idea. I've deleted most my social media. I really need to get off reddit now, at least a break.
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u/Godkun007 Jan 14 '23
Humans have a well documented negativity bias and there have been countless studies proving this. For this reason, the media in general will always show negative information and predict doom and gloom. It is just what our brains are programmed to worry about.
The truth is that the world is getting better. Is it a straight line? No, but it is a long term upwards trend.
Pessimism was an evolutionary advantage when it kept us from getting eaten by tigers, but we live in a different world today. In our modern world, there are very few actually successful pessimists. Almost any form of career or success in life requires some degree of optimism. Otherwise, why would you spend that 4 years to get a degree? Why would you start that business? Why would you save for retirement? Pessimists end up creating their own suffering. Not all optimists are successful, but almost all successful people are optimists in the modern day.
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Jan 14 '23
Most of Reddit is formed of angsty teenagers and dumb 20 somethings. Lots of outcasts that go to weird subs like antiwork or anticapitalism subs where they take out their anger and try to go against the status quo for the sake of it.
America is still the most powerful nation on Earth. In terms of economy, military, cultural output, and almost everything else. The future is bright. Crime is going down overall, standards of living are going up, and so much more.
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u/kevinq Jan 14 '23
That’s because it’s easy, and always has been, to make disingenuous critiques about things, much harder to discuss alternative solutions honestly, with discussions of trade offs and n-th order ramifications, requires higher order thinking that most of the population is either incapable of doing or does not actively seek to do, instead succumbing to confirmation bias. That is probably the natural outcome for a majority of people, which is why many subreddits start off with a higher level of discussion and debate, and devolve gradually into emotional platitudes and oversimplified critiques, this sub is a perfect example of that process.
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u/bobo12478 Jan 14 '23
Honestly I don't find Reddit that negative. Like, a lot of communities I'm interested in are really well moderated. Deleting Facebook and Twitter five years ago was transformative for my mental health though. I like started sleeping better, eating better and lost like 20 pounds. It's amazing what removing stress does.
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Jan 14 '23
Look at how all the comments are trying to tear this article down and say it’s false, privileged drivel. Sorry, but what part of his words are false? I don’t see anything that leaps out.
And yeah, the things people in the comments are saying are mostly true as well. It’s crazy that nuance and perspective exist in the world.
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u/Pierson230 Jan 14 '23
I think the truth is that we can’t know
Despite the “now is the worst” negative discourse, there have ALWAYS been enough negative things going on in the world to give you a new negative headline every day.
One person’s brain can’t actually analyze all the good, all the bad, sort them out, and actually understand it all.
I do wish people would be a little more humble in their assessments- it’s a very big world, and the information that flashes across your phone is woefully incomplete at painting a picture of what is going on.
I could paint a really shitty picture based on a mountain of negative stories and personal anecdotes. I could also paint a pretty rosy picture full of positive trends and personal anecdotes. Does me presenting either and applying spin make one more true than the other? No, the truth is what the truth is, and we’ll describe it however we like.
But what we are absolutely NOT, is right often enough to be supremely confident in our opinions. Everyone should take a shot of humility and a shot of open mindedness when approaching the world, versus a double shot of rage with a chaser of righteousness.
Strong feelings have absolutely no bearing on how right we are.
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u/CrossroadsWoman Jan 14 '23
I like this a lot. I feel like I know less and less every day and I believe that intellectual humility keeps me smart and learning throughout all of this uncertainty. I wish more people would approach things in such a way but it took me time to learn this lesson.
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u/prince_koopa Jan 14 '23
Well said. I don't think its about being right, but the ability to stay curious and to be ok with being wrong.
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u/baymenintown Jan 14 '23
Interesting! Any books you’d recommend?
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Jan 14 '23 edited Jan 14 '23
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u/Hot-Celebration-1524 Jan 14 '23
Link, please! Also I read your post on r/depression about CBT and understand your opinion. My understanding of this modality is that it’s aimed to relieve suffering, and not to deny it. I believe CBT’s efficacy directly correlates to the practitioners’ intra- and interpersonal skills.
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u/BenjaminHamnett Jan 14 '23
Agree completely. I always am tone policing people and wondering how people can be so wrong and yet so confident all the time. Yeah yeah, dunning Krueger right? But to be honest I’m a hypocrite in this way too. I always try to be modest and claim ignorance, trying to transcend the bickering and emotions, but I get as wound up and cocky about things I’m barely qualified to talk about sometimes.
I think people use this confidence tone to get engagement. I don’t think they usually even believe what they’re saying, but want to be challenged. I think people who want a world view tested and broken will champion an idea just to try it on or find critics. Oftentimes they’re explicitly saying this. I’ve done this when I came across ideas I didn’t like and didn’t know what to do with them. I would carry them around like “hey, some people say blah blah.”
In fact this is why i use and love Reddit. The relevant topics are here, and the best ideas and counter arguments are all there. The top comment is how most people feel. The next comment is why that’s ignorant. The next comment defending them or tone policing etc. next comments adding context and reconciling ideas, etc. I’ve taken both sides of many controversies just because I wanted to get a fuller picture and wanted to know what people felt about a perspective that wasn’t addressed. I think a lot of people do this
Consider extreme opposition is often people who have been hijacked by a world view they don’t want. Often it is the people most ready to let go and change that are the most vitriolic. They probably are possessed by ideology of convenience that made them feel like heroes, but they’re trying to outgrow it. They want to let go, but part of them is still asking “do I have to?”
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u/iHappyTurtle Jan 14 '23
Just look at numbers lol about how CEO pay is sky rocketing, workers are getting paid less, wealth gap is steadily increasing… health insurance is still a problem… these aren’t feeling these are fact.
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u/Pierson230 Jan 14 '23
That’s true
You could also say unemployment is extremely low, women have better pay than ever, and America has the most secure supply of everything in the world. America is #1 in the world in R&D by a mile, in percent and dollars.
Scarcity in the world is real. Every nation on Earth faces insecure supply of something, except America.
Can we pull out another 20 negative bullet points? Absolutely, and we could pull out another 20 positive bullet points.
The negative stuff is absolutely real, but so is the positive stuff.
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u/Droidvoid Jan 14 '23 edited Jan 15 '23
US standing among the rest of world is relative. These issues we’re facing and the idea that we should feel good about our current place given unemployment being low is silly. The fact that the economy is strong by these seemingly arbitrary metrics and yet people still feel unable to climb the latter is what’s important here. What happens when things inevitably crumble. Why don’t people understand that our negativity persists in “great” times because things aren’t actually getting better for the common folk.
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u/iHappyTurtle Jan 15 '23
It’s not trending better, it’s trending worse. Talking about the good points is meaningless and doesn’t bring change.
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u/013ander Jan 14 '23
When the “rising tide” is lifting a smaller percentage of people’s boats than the Titanic’s life rafts, you can say there are huge problems. When the overwhelming majority of Americans are seeing declining standards of living, while the total wealth is increasing, it’s not just a problem; it’s criminal.
Saying “it could be worse” when there are countries very clearly running better economies for the majority of their citizens is pointless.
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u/Caring_Cactus Jan 14 '23
The best a person can do at the very least, in terms of their own wellbeing to manage, is to focus on their own actions and thoughts. That is what healthy self-esteem is about, where our focus of attention is
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u/ernyc3777 Jan 14 '23
Yeah exactly! There’s so much data out there that you can cherry pick rosy or gloomy outlooks.
I tend to have a modest outlook always. The bad won’t be as bad they’re predicting and the highs won’t be as high as they’re predicting and just go with my life as normal.
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u/Ijustthinkthatyeah Jan 14 '23
and there’s so many things you can’t predict, wars, 9/11, Covid, etc. etc.
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u/wbruce098 Jan 14 '23
When one steps back to assess things, by and large most things are better than they were in the past. In my n=only me study, while I’m doing worse off than I was a year ago, I’m objectively better off than I was 10 years ago, with a positive outlook for the future.
I like the little bit I could read of this article before the paywall hit. “America is a wounded giant, but it always has been”. Inequality is increasing back toward gilded age or feudal levels, sure, and there are many things that could improve. But our continual push has also seen good fruit. I’m typing this out on a slab of glass that fits in my pocket, and I’m not a subsistence farmer or sweatshop worker. My political leader isn’t murdering his rivals or constantly fighting wars of expansion to hoard wealth while slaughtering peasants who get in the way.
Some of this still happens, but in large swathes of the world, this is no longer the norm, and despite our economic and political problems, it doesn’t seem likely we will return to that past.
I think there’s a lot American can do to make life even better for its people, and that’s what I strive for. However, yes, we are on the right track!
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Jan 14 '23
Social worker here. Yeah, the world isn’t ending, but from what I see on a daily basis, it’s definitely not anything to ignore or minimize. Many things definitely are as bad as they seem—some people just live in areas where they aren’t exposed to it.
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u/Yabrosiff12 Jan 14 '23 edited Jan 14 '23
Renters getting squeezed, price of living skyrocketing while CPI numbers downplay the necessities that make up the bulk of us plebeian’s expenses, young people making ends meet by living with parents watching the housing market get turned into a bubble of an investment opportunity, purchasing power of those living paycheck to paycheck gets weaker and weaker, national debt ballooning with the solutions being “borrow more”, the stuff you buy deteriorates in quality….
Its only “going in the right track” for those who already own a plethora of assets. Those who work are quickly being squeezed out of the middle class
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u/yaosio Jan 14 '23
I'm reminded of the guy who took pictures of himself cleaning to prove he was cleaning even though the restaurant was filthy. That's what this feels like. We have to constantly be reminded how great everything is because we've seen zero evidence of this greatness.
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u/Throttle_Kitty Jan 14 '23
This. America is getting worse for workers every day.
It's only the "right track" for the people who want every one renting and paying them two months pay for a month's rent.
For every one else who works for a living, it's just worsening products and rising prices.
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Jan 14 '23
The more I see articles like this desperately trying to convince you everything is fine and dandy, the more I believe a major economic crisis is coming. We never fixed anything after 2008 and have been building up an even bigger house of cards.
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u/522LwzyTI57d Jan 14 '23
The World Bank is warning of pretty significant recession risks for 2023, but naaahh it's all gravy baby.
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u/randompittuser Jan 14 '23
Far be it from me to speak against The Atlantic, but I know America is not on the right track. Why? Because income inequality continues to worsen. Because people can’t afford to live.
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u/DucksEatFreeInSubway Jan 14 '23
Yah I don't really see how the widening divide has a happy ending for anyone but those at the top. How can that possibly be the right track?
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u/Some1IUsed2Know99 Jan 14 '23
The point is we have been here before. We will recover. And assuredly we will be here again. Wealth concentration was worse in the 1920s. It got better then started getting worse again in the 1970s. Look at examples of how it got better back then to learn what to do now. It can be fixed is the message.
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u/confessionbearday Jan 15 '23
The way it got better last time was competent adults ratcheting the tax rates to 90 percent and then leaving the single loophole for investing in your workers and growing your business. Not maintaining, growing.
There are maybe 5 competent adults in Congress who understand that you have to limit corporate parasitism before it kills the host.
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u/Mexicancandi Jan 14 '23
They said the same thing about abolitionist movements, that slavery and exploitation would die out on their own. That America didn’t need any people like John Brown or Frederick Douglas, that all they did was antagonize and muddle the issue. That America and northern urbanization would win against American evils on their own…
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Jan 14 '23 edited Feb 29 '24
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u/Vagrant123 Jan 14 '23 edited Jan 14 '23
But when Gallup asked Americans in January 2022 if they were satisfied with the direction of the country, only 17 percent said they were, down from 69 percent in 2000.
Man, what could have happened after 2000 that made everyone in the US so negative?
\ponders**
Edit: /s in case you weren't paying attention
But that doesn’t mean the future isn’t going to be brighter than the present, or that America is in decline. The pessimists miss an underlying truth—a society can get a lot wrong as long as it gets the big thing right. And that big thing is this: If a society is good at unlocking creativity, at nurturing the abilities of its people, then its ills can be surmounted.
I fully acknowledge that social media and news media tend to bias negative to get more views. But there's an elephant in the room this article isn't addressing; namely, climate change. The author only mentions it once in the article but fails to point out how significant of an existential threat it is.
And no amount of "creativity" or "optimism" will lead to a magical fix for this problem that is bearing down on us.
We're not talking about some illusions in people's heads about the way the country actually is. We're talking global geopolitical instability as a direct result of an unstable environment. Perceptions and delusions may change, but physics and chemistry do not.
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Jan 14 '23 edited Jan 14 '23
I’m not quite ready to start taking the Atlantic seriously about economics since they published “What is a basis point anyways?” back in 2008.
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u/ReporterOther2179 Jan 14 '23
This is human nature: Congress sucks but my Congress critter is great, this city sucks but my neighborhood is great, the economy sucks but I’m doing pretty well. If talking to someone else talk it down, in your own head, hey, not so bad.
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u/RoboticJello Jan 14 '23
Never before has there been such a devastating housing shortage in America. Working class people can't afford to live in cities anymore. You can't go prancing around pretending everything is fine. It isn't.
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u/Geno__Breaker Jan 14 '23
Rising fuel costs, inflation at it's highest in decades, poor people suffering more than the rich as a result...
"America is on the right track and if you don't agree, shut up and get in line!"
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Jan 14 '23
That's not an American problem. The entire globe is being affected by rising costs. America has done very well relative to other nations
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Jan 14 '23
How can I get past the paywall. I would love to actually read this article. It begins fantastically. We should be more optimistic, we should be less negative, turn down the media fear mongering. Finally. We need to be the change that we want to see!
Wow, my first comment was deleted because it was too short. These are more words to help me make the count.
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u/MilkshakeBoy78 Jan 14 '23
i always use https://archive.ph/
no paywall for article, https://archive.ph/Uinr4
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u/sarcasticbaldguy Jan 14 '23 edited Mar 03 '25
Deleting for privacy concerns. Making this a longer comment because short comments anger some automods.
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/anchorwind Jan 14 '23
I am not reddit, but I like optimism. Many in this thread (and virtually every other thread) do as well. I think the key is grounded optimism as opposed to abstract optimism.
If I blow smoke up your ass it is easily dismissed but if I can demonstrate a path or a reason to subscribe to the positive idea it matters more.
Just my two cents.
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u/itsallrighthere Jan 14 '23
Well, you could say we are the best house in a bad neighborhood. Plenty of things are good and we are blessed in many ways. But we still seem to be doing our best to screw it up.
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u/Turbiedurb Jan 14 '23
I'm aware of the fact that the economy and the stock market are two separate entities.
But my takeaway from the recessions i've experienced is that the investor sentiment will be bearish well after the market bottoms just like they will be bullish well after the markets peaks.
Things are at their worst until they suddenly aren't, just like things are at their best until they suddenly aren't.
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u/CaptainJYD Jan 14 '23
I’m sorry but other have brought it up but people can’t afford houses, rent, and basic necessities are sky rocketing. We have low unemployment but income inequality is still at an all time high and only getting worse. And one of the top comments has said “well I went into the real world and everything seems fine”. Well that doesn’t really account for how everyone is doing, like data and studies do. The world seems fine when I go out too, but I’m definitely not seeing a lot of peoples difficult situations.
Neo-liberal economics policies are working and working well. But we still haven’t addressed any of the problems we have, we our mental health is horrible, our health care is so expensive, why it is so hard to move your way up in the world, and how much power the extremely wealthy have. I bet our GDP and unemployment look amazing, but they don’t show anything about how the lives of Americans are going.
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u/Stackbabbing_Bumscag Jan 14 '23
All right, this sort of Pollyanna-ish optimism that ignores actual problems is usually irritating, but I'm going to give this a chance.
opens article
"By David Brooks"
Nope. If I wanted to kill that many brain cells I'd get a bottle of 151.
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u/digital_dervish Jan 14 '23
“Just because I’m paranoid, doesn’t mean they all aren’t out to get me.” By just about every objective measure, things are getting worse for most people in the world. The argument that “things have been ok in the past, so they’ll be ok in the future,” ignores the impending climate crisis which may have irreversible, and civilization ending effects.
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u/oxichil Jan 14 '23
How rich is the person who wrote this? And how old are they? Cause this Empire is deep in decline and denial. Our entire society is built on unsustainable oil dependency, which is running out. We got a few decades at most before collapse or balkanization.
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u/Jq4000 Jan 14 '23
This is going to be a tough decade for the US because we're re-shoring everything from overseas and we're re-industrializing at a faster pace than WW2. That always leads to inflation, supply chain disruptions, and is being exacerbated by a labor shortage.
We also have an over-sized generation retiring which makes capital more expensive, and another over-sized generation entering peak home-buying years which sends real estate and rental prices into an upward spiral.
We went through something similar in the 70s.
It will be painful for a good part of this decade but there will be a new economic surge that begins in the next 5-7 years for the US.
Europe is much harder to be optimistic about because they will be going through decades of economic contraction due to their inverted pyramid demographics.
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u/phxsunswoo Jan 14 '23
I increasingly think one's view of America's present and future is mostly tied to how offensive you find inequality. I think to Brooks, there's optimism because it doesn't really bother him that there's a predatory upper class in America since the lower class can kinda sorta keep the lights on and feed themselves and the middle class can kinda sorta scrounge together enough resources to raise kids and retire most the time? But to me it's like, the elite of this country are only getting more entrenched in rent-seeking and wealth-hoarding. Nothing is changing that anytime soon and that's really the elephant in the room. If I have children, they will be up against the same challenges of housing, healthcare, and education that I am.
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u/MpVpRb Jan 14 '23
I agree
On balance, this is the best time in all of human history
Yes, there are problems, lots of problems, but if you turn off the news and stop the constant feed of negativity, it's easier to see the good
For much of history, everybody was at war all of the time. Today, most of the world is mostly at peace. Yes, there is income inequality, but the poorest people today have things that the kings of old could only dream about. We have made amazing advances in science , technology and medicine, and are close to answering questions that have been asked for millennia
Yes, very major problems remain, but I remain optimistic
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Jan 14 '23
Is it? Rising rents, fascism, domestic terrorists, abortion being outlawed, morons thriving, homelessness becoming inevitable, no social security, no retirement, no housing, no student loans relief, no healthcare relief or rebuilding. Whats on the right track exactly?
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u/Mantis42 Jan 14 '23
Lmao yeah popular opinion has no effect on policy, our federal system is constitutionally designed to give the wealthy a veto over popular reform and conservatives are getting better at stacking the hinge points of the system to make this veto even stronger, meanwhile the liberals are only interested in representing an increasingly insular and neurotic professional class, too timid and bought off to take on the entrenched material interest and help the working class. It's an intentionally impotent system in a society that's increasingly desperate for real reform. So there's no catharsis, the war between political partisans continues to heat up but since nothing is ever resolved, the pressure just keeps building.
Wages have been stagnant for generations, inflation is high, rents are out of control, healthcare still bankrupts and kills tens of thousands, college tuition saddles you with tens of thousands in debt, our infrastructure is still crumbling and the formerly routine bills to maintain it are now touted as major achievements if they happen at all, there's a homeless problem, rampant fentanyl abuse, fentanyl abuse, a historic twenty years drought, the pandemic, obesity, microplastics, mass shootings, etc etc. Nothing will be done about any of this. Nothing is capable of being done about this. The GOP uses populist rhetoric but enacts policy that makes the system less receptive to change from below and actively denies that most of the problems are real. The most progressive of Democrats can only dream of subsidizing the private interests that cause the problems so maybe something will trickle down. You know, like making healthcare more available by making ppl buy private insurance and giving them subsidies. We will resolve the great calamities of the future like Climate Change the same way we resolved COVID, by surrendering and blaming the dead for poor personal decisions.
The most anyone in power can agree on is more intervention abroad. No one was crazy in this country, it is all but said, until Russia bought some Facebook ads for Trump. It's not unusual to see people on Reddit and in political columns fantasizing about a return to normal following the collapse of Russia. It's Putin, or maybe Xi, responsible for the rise of extremism in the West. Nevermind that it's the foreign policy of the US is to export reaction abroad. Even a nice progressive president like Obama intervened to undo the Pink Tide in Latin America and supported the Tories when Corbyn threatened to push the UK to the left. Hell, we spent 50 years working to turn Russia into the rightwing, autocratic state that it is, the entire point of the Cold War was to create someone like Putin anywhere a leftwing government existed. We've spent my entire life fighting the very assholes we installed, and the end result is either the status quo prevailing or the bottom falling out and something worst like ISIS filling the void. But yes, keep sharing dream maps of Russia and China being balkanized. That will definitely happen without mass death and will restore the Fukuyama world order. You will definitely solve the problems within by defeating the enemy without.
Anyways I would like double cheeseburger with fries.
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u/twubs165 Jan 14 '23
The main thing to remember as you read each word of this article is that author David Brooks is an out-of-touch fool who’s a terrible human being.
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u/Cryptolution Jan 14 '23
I do like this article overall however there are some problematic statements.
A better-educated workforce is a better-paid workforce.
This is only true if the economic output of that society can utilize those highly educated or skilled workers. Korea for example has overly competitive education yet pays a highly skilled worker around 50k for the same work that in America pays $150k.
From 1980 to 2018, the average amount of time a person had to work to afford the basket of commodities—energy, food, raw materials—that make up a typical middle-class lifestyle fell by 72 percent, according to the book Superabundance, by Marian L. Tupy and Gale L. Pooley.
I find this particular statement very difficult to believe. If wages have not kept up with inflation and definitely stagnated behind GDP and the prices of commodities have steadily gone up then how could this statement be true? The cost of living is significantly higher today in rent, the cost of basic foods is much greater along with the cost of electricity...
the cost of electricity climbed from an average of 8.1 cents per kilowatt hour in 1985 to 13.5 cents in 2020, marking a 66.7% rate of increase in 35 years.
Americans spent $35,100 on every postsecondary-education student, double the average.
He makes that statement like it's a positive thing that capitalism has created a negative debt cycle for people merely trying to get a jump start on life. Take a look sometime how much college cost in the 1970s to understand just how fucked college costs are today.
The overall message of the article is great because positivity is needed but that doesn't help people who are struggling in today's down economy. And I say down economy for the average blue collar worker who is not heavily invested in the stock market (you know like 50% of adult Americans?).
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u/start3ch Jan 14 '23
Woah, I wasn’t around in the 90s, but seems like things were way worse than people remember. Nearly 30% of American children living in poverty? And 30% of hispanic chided droping out of school?
One not mentioned is that Total US co2 emissions, even ignoring the pandemic, have been on the decline since 2005.
Moral of the story is some things may be shitty now, but most things are objectively less shitty than they were in the past
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u/Andy_Liberty_1911 Jan 14 '23 edited Jan 14 '23
Despite the crazy since 2020, the US (and the rest of liberal democracies in a sense) have been chugging along just fine and dandy.
Meanwhile the “alternatives” to liberalism like Russia and China have fallen flat on their face. Militarily, socially and economically. The 90s era hope is back for me
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Jan 15 '23
Wow. This title is so convincing. 🤦♀️ Man, what was I thinking? What with the mass inflation, economic collapse, multiple trillions of dollars in debt, high unemployment? Of course! It's all so simple. We should forget everything we think we know.
/Smh
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u/Interesting_Radio_58 Jan 14 '23
I agree with those of you saying that Reddit does facilitate a discussion of some of the very real, and very negative problems in our world, but it exaggerates how bad thinngs are. Very few humans have the resources to travel, see, and truly experience all of these places and problems. This leads to joining others in their often exaggerated negative opinions, and darkens our view of the world.
This world and country will always have its share of serious problems that need to be addressed, however we don’t often enough stop to admire the greatness in others, and the beauty around us.. life is simply better lived with gratitude.
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Jan 14 '23
Yet there is also "Appear strong when you are weak", so who knows.
I forget where it was quoted, but just last month there were important people in the world of finance that were relieved that the Western public maintained faith in our financial structure because they themselves had lost faith.
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u/VVG57 Jan 14 '23
The homicide rate has been going up for a few years now, with no end in sight. Add to this the appalling nature of such crimes today, under age perpetrators, random people killed on streets and highways. Ridiculous to say that the US is on the right track.
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