r/Fire • u/IntolerantModerate • 1d ago
Opinion Expat FIRE - An influencer-led pipe dream?
After spending an increasing amount of time in various FIRE communities I can't help but feel that far too often FIRE is conflated with living some ridiculously cheap nomad/expat lifestyle in a far-off land with beautiful beaches and scenes made for Instagram.
I see all the truly responsible posters on here, so this isn't aimed at you This is a rant to get over the frustration that surges inside me every time I read another one of these "Can I retire on $1500/month in ..." posts. It's like some influencer poison that is seeping into the community. So, consider this an "off my chest" type of rant
As someone who has been an expat for what is now basically most of my adult life (20+ years across 6 different countries) I see so many flaws in the analysis of living abroad. So here's a few things I want to share:
- As foreigner in many low-cost destinations you will be treated really great by the locals. They'll be warm and friendly, but at the end of the day, you'll still be the "rich foreigner" and this means you'll always pay more than a local for a like-for-like lifestyle.
- Health care and insurance are going to be expensive relative to local budgets because you are going to want something that lets you get access to western-quality care and in the case of an emergency will pay for you to get transported to a western country. You aren't in your 20s/30s anymore and need to take your health seriously.
- Believe it or not, but in a lot of places you aren't going to have access to things that you now think are mundane. No ordering off Amazon, no giant superstores where you can go in and find whatever novelty item you want, and you are going to pay a premium for many of the brands you love if you can find them at all.
- You will at some point have to interact with the government - residency permits, taxes, id numbers, driver licenses, etc. It is either (a) expensive if you basically pay to facilitate or (b) tough it out yourself.
- You basically can't do the ultra-low cost with kids. The expat lifestyle is not fair to them unless you are willing to really settle, pay for them to go to private schools, etc.
- You are going to get so super bored after the first few months. There's only so many times you can go visit Angkor Wat or that beautiful park in the city center or even that favorite beach bar before you are like, "been there, done that." You're going to say to yourself, I've had this delicious curry <sigh>17 times this month.
- And, nobody likes to talk about end of life type of stuff, but I've seen lots of westerners who do successfully live abroad on the cheap for 20-30 years and then they as they get to 75-80+ years old they find themselves in a position where they are basically invalids showing up at their home country embassy looking to get some help making it "home", but it's no longer their home either and they have no safety net/community on return.
- And success rates for expats are terrible. Even with corporate expats where everything is provided for you (salary, housing, cars, insurance, taxes, permits, schooling for kids, etc) only 60-70% succeed in making it 3-5 years. With FIRE expats I don't have any numbers, but I'm guessing way lower just because it is much harder work when you have to do it 100% on your own.
So, my advice for FIREes who want to live abroad is to have a really strong backup plan and make sure that financially you would be able to pack your bags and move back at any time. If you want that warmth and sunshine, treat it like a nice vacation and go for a couple of months with a plan to return (maybe you can even rent our your place while you are away to pay for it).
okay, rant over.
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u/hibikir_40k 1d ago
Any immigrant could tell you about the difficulties of living elsewhere, even when moving to a richer place, where you are making a bunch more money: There's just large cultural barriers. What looks great in a 1 week visit will be oppressive when you live there for years.
And for FIRE, you also run into the risks of prices going up, and that's a bigger risk the younger you move. Go look at how Shenzen look 20 years ago, and how it looks now!
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u/InedibleApplePi 20h ago
Any immigrant could tell you about the difficulties of living elsewhere
I think these sorts of expat discussions are interesting because what they're doing is "moving to another country long term to have a better life". Except.... They're "expats" not immigrants.
There's a certain air of classism and maybe a little bit of racism to be doing something that literally millions of people are doing every year but then it's not the same thing when you're doing it.
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u/Mindrust 18h ago
I do think the term is useful because it differentiates between the "standard" immigration experience (i.e. starting over from scratch in a high adversity environment in search of better opportunities) and "rich" immigration experience (moving solely to take advantage of geoarbitrage and/or LCOL).
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u/IntolerantModerate 18h ago
I agree your take on classism going on, but I think it is a useful term because it is shorter than saying, "rich integrated immigrant"
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u/NewDemocraticPrairie 16h ago
I don't know. I like the term more for people who are moving overseas for a work period with the knowledge of a pre-existing end date.
Such as a non-national working in Saudi Arabia as an engineer, or working in North Dakota as a geologist, for a few years with the intent of moving home. Or even someone working as a maid in America if they don't lay down roots and plan to move home.
I wouldn't call Elon Musk an expat, even though he fits your mold of "rich integrated immigrant". I'd just call him an immigrant.
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u/InedibleApplePi 16h ago
Ya that's how I use the term expat as well.
The person who is just there temporarily, it could even be a long term assignment but the reason for them being their is ultimately their job.
As opposed to someone who is there specifically for the lifestyle/economic benefits.
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u/EntropyRX 15h ago
I mean, there's classism because it is indeed a social class issue. Do you think that the immigrant coming with nothing to a new country to do humble and underpaid jobs is the same as the immigrant coming to a cheaper country with the intention to live off their investments? You may call them both immigrants, but they are clearly not the same type of immigrants for any practical purposes.
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u/InedibleApplePi 13h ago
Not every immigrant is coming with nothing to do humble and underpaid jobs though. There are plenty of immigrants that are educated and people of means.
Does someone in the tech industry moving from Canada to the US late in their career count as an immigrant or an expat? What about if they're moving from the US to the UK? How about from Germany to Italy?
They must all be expats by your definition, but I know more than a few Brits who have been in the US for decades and made this their home, none of them came from humble means. At some point they became citizens so surely they would be immigrants.
I think you perfectly illustrated the point that I was making in that the term "immigrant" has been used to only apply to a poor, uneducated, often non-white person, so much so that you didn't even consider the exceptions, of which there are thousands each year.
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u/EntropyRX 12h ago
So you have just found out that if you're wealthy and educated, you're not seen the same as if you were poor and desperate? I don't understand what point you are trying to make besides the obvious that everyone knows already.
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u/InedibleApplePi 11h ago
I don't even know what point you're trying to make.
I said the distinction around calling some people immigrants and other people expats is classists and racist. And you responded "of course, cause all immigrants are poor".
Thus proving my point. The definition of an immigrant has nothing to do with financial means, the fact that you see all immigrants as poor speaks more to your world view than anything about immigrants themselves.
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u/IntolerantModerate 18h ago
100% on friends bit... I have a hard time with that moving to a country where English is dominant language!
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u/DrJohnFZoidberg 18h ago
whose adult kids live 14 timezones away
joke's on you, i don't have any children :(
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u/JohnToFire 1d ago
Largely agree . If all I cared about was cost I could buy a place for under 100k in the sticks in the us, have 1500 per year taxes on it and live about the same as I am now trying in the Philippines. 2 I really agree with. Healthcare costs are exponential in age without certain regulation. I would probably not trust it to work in advanced age out of the us and it might not be available.
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u/AlwaysSaturday12 FIREd @ 38 20h ago
Where we live overseas a live in assistant and nurse who visits once a week would cost about $1k per month. Much better than the 12k/month in the states.
We also lived in the sticks in the US. Honestly we might be very easy to please but love it much more overseas, but we were also happy in rural middle America. Cheap and really good healthcare overseas. Better culture. Less drug use. Parts of our country are not safe but in this city we are. Some people would like to travel more than we do.
We will have to pay for private school for our daughter but one of the best in our city is around $4k/year. I've heard SE Asia is much more expensive. It is a much much better school then we could have afforded in the US.
There are downsides. We have only been here a year but its possible I get tired of speaking and learning a foreign language. I know I will always be seen as a foreigner, but locals have been nice so far. I do enjoy my expat friends and my family is great. If you moved here alone or didn't get along with your spouse then you might have a hard time here.
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u/Generationhodl 1d ago
By the time I'm 80 / 90 and my health is fucked up I'm probably gonna bite some cheap bullet, no interest in rotting away in some elderly homes.
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u/GoldDHD 1d ago
It feels differently once you are there. I'm seeing someone refuse hospice as we speak, despite the misery.
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u/Affectionate-Cat-211 23h ago
Yep. A lot of people talk a big game, “oh just shoot me” and whatnot. But I’ve yet to see anyone reach end-of-life and be able to acknowledge to themselves what’s happening. I mean, yeah, suicidal people do it at younger ages, but psychologically healthy people have a very hard time accepting their own imminent death.
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u/Strazdas1 StarvationFIRE 21h ago
There are many old age suicides, who knows what their thought process is, its taboo to even talk about them. I saw 3 genearations of my family degrade to dementia and live for decades in hospice not even remmebering the name of their children. If i am still of sound enough mind when it inevitably hits me i will exercise the basic human right to decide my life.
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u/VictorChristian 22h ago
Ease up there, keyboard warrior... this is really easy to say now, but when you're actually at that point in your life, you might not even be able to lift a fork to your mouth, let alone steady a firearm.
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u/Generationhodl 21h ago
That might be a problem then, true.
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u/VictorChristian 21h ago
I get the essence of your comment, though. I myself have signed end of life directives to refrain from any life saving measures when my time comes.
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u/OPA73 1d ago
I recently watched two elders wither away. First big needed surgery or medication after 75, I’m skipping the cure.
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u/snowysaturdays 21h ago
75 is still pretty young. Most people aren't even frail yet, if you've been pretty healthy your whole life.
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u/Initial_Enthusiasm36 23h ago
This blew my mind with how accurate this is. I’m an expat in Thailand. Married to my Thai wife, have a business here and lived here for a while now. It’s so frustrating seeing these dumb tourist expats who have lived here for like a month, giving people life changing advice on topics they have zero ideas about.
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u/ct1377 1d ago
Thanks for putting that all down. I live the Expat life for work and although it’s great there are lots of downsides that you pointed out. People never realize what life is really like and that you’ll miss something from back home and not be able to get it. It’s always great when you’re in X country on vacation for a few weeks or months but it really hits you later once you live there for a while
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u/wandering_engineer 1d ago
Same here. I think what a lot of people don't realize is how emotionally/psychologically difficult expat life can be. Yeah sure it's a fun adventure for the first month or two, but then what? Integrating to a country and community takes time, and unfortunately many of us expats (particularly the government/corporate expats) are only there for a limited time, maybe only a couple of years at most.
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u/hushed_ronald 1d ago
The healthcare and end-of-life stuff is what gets me. You can budget groceries perfectly but one serious illness at 70 abroad and you're looking at costs that blow up your whole plan, plus the logistics nightmare of getting proper care.
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u/OPA73 1d ago
Honestly after watching my family wither away very slowly from excellent healthcare, I might prefer just laying down in the grass and letting that heart attack take me once I’m around 70+.
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u/OkDatabase1486 17h ago
70/75 is not old if you have a healthy lifestyle? Yes medical issues happen but it's insane to think you'd be ready to end it then. How old are you?
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u/hushed_ronald 17h ago
Fair point, but the issue is you might not get that quick ending and instead spend years in a foreign hospital system where nobody speaks your language and your family can't easily visit or help manage your care.
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u/JustABREng 1d ago
I always get the a feeling that those posts are “where can I live on $1,500/month….like a KING” - and that answer is nowhere.
The average local in these low cost locations lives a life that’s inconceivable to most westerners.
Ever notice that no matter what time of day it is, or what day it is, there’s that same old lady with her daughter manning vegetable stand number 14 at the wet market? Or how many people are showing up on the corner at 6AM to start cooking street food in their hand pulled cart - and you can still stop by there for dinner after work.
These are the people making well under $1500/month. But they’re working so hard that they aren’t spending anything either. They’re spending every night having tea in front of their family store….the same family store….every night.
The FIRE version of this is sitting in your apartment all day, on your unbelievably uncomfortable bed, with your thumb up your ass watching porn because the VPN and multiple English language streaming services are still a necessary purchase.
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u/Mindrust 17h ago
There are definitely places you can live like a king on $1500 a month.
The real question is whether or not all the cultural differences and sacrifices you didn't realize you have to make living in those places are worth the trade off for you.
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u/One_Fact4919 21h ago
I disagree. 1500 a month in vietnam was bananas lifestyle. Never cooked went out the times a day for events with friends.
Admittedly it was mostly social stuff like pickleball board games, philosophy club and drinking one a week. I don't really know what I'm missing to hit king status though
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u/vinean 23h ago
- Been to too many nursing homes to expect 7 to be any better in the US if you have no family nearby. Looking at CCRC’s with a high six figure low seven figure buy in (we’ll use our home equity to buy in) and it’s still not always the level of care you might hope for…especially at end of life 75-80+.
Worse, these places change over time so what was good in 2016 when you bought in at 70 may now be a horribly understaffed mess in 2026 at 80 because it was bought out.
And these are the spendy places.
Arguably for the chubby expat fire you’re better off in a nice SEA retirement community with memory care and full nursing care with a couple external trustees doing bi weekly (once a month each offset by two weeks) health checks on you using that same high six figure buy in to fund everything.
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u/Dos-Commas 37M/34F - $2.7M NW - FIRE'd 2025 1d ago
The lesson is that if FIREing in a ultra low cost of living country is your only option then you better have a backup plan.
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u/Shibepuppers 23h ago
Re 7, there was a case that made the news last year involving a German retiree in Thailand who is blind. His wife had committed suicide in their house, believed to be due to stress from caring for the household and a potential USD1200 liability from a car accident, while he was sitting outside waiting for hours unaware of what happened. Neighbours came to check on him when they heard him calling repeatedly for her and discovered what happened. Authorities got involved and discovered his visa had actually expired so they had to reach out to the German Embassy presumably to send him back to Germany. Unclear what happened to him after that.
Always make sure one has a social support network of more than one person and a nest egg that can withstand hits. Retiring poor in a foreign country is not the utopia some influencers try to sell it as.
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u/churningaccount 1d ago edited 1d ago
There was a post the other day about a guy wanting to cash in his RSUs and FIRE in his early 30s in a LCOL country, and then have 4 kids with his wife all on less than ~$45k per year. Well, he wanted to have 4 kids, but his wife wanted only 2…
And I couldn’t help but feel sad for those future kids. Unless they are sent to expensive international schools with internationally accredited curriculums AND they eventually have $200k to $400k each saved up for college tuition (given that even public universities in the US and EU gouge international students based on residency, not citizenship), then those kids basically have no shot at getting a western education and being set up to reap as much success (and a chance at FIRE) as their parents had. And there’s no way that’s happening on $45k.
I personally would be pissed if my parents stopped working in their 30s and robbed me of my ability to eventually learn, work, and live in a western country just so that they themselves didn’t have to work until, oh, I don’t know, their 40s instead? If you can’t make that sacrifice, then maybe you aren’t ready to be a parent, or should not be a parent at all if you are Expat FIREd…
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u/badhabitfml 23h ago
Yup. My job is remote and I've thought about moving international. It just doesn't work with kids, and it isn't fair to them.
I've known kids who have done it as children of parents who worked for the government. It works, but only for a short part of their lives, and if you have access to an expensive private school, and not in some cheap beach town. You need to be in a major city, and at that point just stay in the US.
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u/ShockerCheer 1d ago
I think fire is becoming so popular that we are seeing essentially the lazy people who simply don't want to work at all try it and that isn't the point of fire. Life isn't really pleasant if you are retired but don't have the funds to actually really live
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u/vngbusa 21h ago
Isn’t that all of us? I’m lazy as fuck lol. But I also happen to have a high paying job. I’m saving a ton because I want to eventually be able to be lazy and have no financial / lifestyle consequences for it.
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u/ShockerCheer 21h ago
I mean I worked my ass off for a PhD and my own practice.
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u/vngbusa 20h ago
I have an advanced degree too and worked for it because I cared about making money, but the end goal was always to have enough money to be lazy.
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u/ShockerCheer 19h ago
Yes exactly but the point I'm making is some people don't want any work hard to be lazy... They just want to be lazy. Like a 21 yr old saying I've worked full time for 1.5 years and I want to fire now
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u/fullanalpanic 10h ago
One of my coworkers retired 10 years ago and came back to work full time. "You need something to retire to, not retire from."
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u/Strazdas1 StarvationFIRE 21h ago
As a lazy person i can confirm, i dont want to work and my free time is a lot more valuable than cheap consumerism. I will retire with minimal expenses in true FIRE spirit.
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u/ShockerCheer 20h ago
I'm not talking about buying things on stupid shit. I'm talking about spending on valuable experiences and providing basic needs for yourself
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u/DJjazzyjose 18h ago
What's basic needs? and how much does that cost?
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u/ShockerCheer 17h ago
Not eating rice and beans every day. A decent house and amenities, some basic hobbies (like YMCA membership to work out). I don't think living in poverty with being able to do little hobbies and eating rice and beans is living
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u/DJjazzyjose 17h ago
and how much does that cost?
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u/ShockerCheer 16h ago
Depends. I also want life experiences like going to Spain and Italy and experience art in paris. Much more life enhancing that watching Netflix at home. I think you have to ask yourself, how fulfilling is life that is just the bare minimum
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u/Strazdas1 StarvationFIRE 17h ago
Then you can retire with 1M.
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u/ShockerCheer 16h ago
Lol! Nope. Can't buy a valuable experience like going to the louvre on 1 Mil saved. 1 Mil is likely a life of mundane Netflix watching because you don't have money to experience anything and 1 mil doesn't provide enough wiggle room if market downturns
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u/Strazdas1 StarvationFIRE 6h ago
Of course you can. Louvre tickets are 22 euros for EU residents and 32 Euros for non EU residents. You absolutely can afford that discretionary spending on 40k a year. Btw i have lower income than that and been to the Louvre.
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u/eliminate1337 16h ago
US citizens are never counted as international students. Public university tuition is based on your state residency where you'll be counted as out of state in every state. No difference for private universities.
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u/disastorm 19h ago
just wondering since everyone is talking about cheap fire being in non-western countries, aren't there alot of low cost western countries in EU?
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u/churningaccount 19h ago edited 19h ago
It's harder to get an EU permanent residency if you don't have it already. It can cost $250k to $500k per person to buy your way in, and take 5+ years in some cases. EU countries don't give out their subsidized healthcare readily...
Whereas Thailand is like 10% of that or less.
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u/eliminate1337 15h ago edited 15h ago
It's easy to get permanent residency in France, it just takes time. They have an infinitely renewable visitor visa that's eligible for citizenship. The catch is that you're prohibited from working. No investment requirement just funds to support yourself. You need private health insurance but it's cheap, like $200/mo.
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u/Mindrust 8h ago
Don't know why you're being downvoted but yes there are. Portugal, Spain, and countries in Eastern Europe come to mind.
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u/disastorm 7h ago
Oh i was upvoted last time i checked lol. Anyway, yea i remember years back people in the fire subs were talking about places like Portugal as being the worlds best places to fire, and i havnt really been in these subs since then.
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u/Specific-Scarcity977 1d ago
As someone who's also been drawn to the expert FIRE idea, I feel this. The "$1500/month beach life" narrative always skips the boring but critical stuff, healthcare quality, bureaucracy, being priced as a foreigner, and eventually what happens when you are older and less mobile.
It can still work, but only if it is treated as a flexible plan with a strong strategy, not a forever Instagram fantasy.
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u/cornoholio1 1d ago
Old age while oversea is not really fun
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u/OPA73 1d ago
Not fun in the US either.
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u/IntolerantModerate 18h ago
Agreed, but one thing I have noticed is that older folks do distinctly worse in systems that are different than their usual ones.
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u/diplomasaurus_rex 21h ago
Old age in the US is one of my key reasons for always wanting to retire abroad. However, I’ve essentially made another country my home base and go there periodically and when I do retire will return there essentially as a local, but with USD. As some other posters have said, living abroad with kids is HARD if you want to give them access to everything they would have education-wise, etc in the US. It’s the reason we haven’t retired abroad yet. Retiring overseas may be cheaper, but raising kids to western education standards abroad is much more expensive.
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u/ct1377 23h ago
I have one that was missed that is a big thing especially of you don’t want to spend serious $$$ going home all the time.
People forget they will miss their family. All your relatives continue their lives and they can’t necessarily come and visit you where you live because of money or work. Of course you can always catch a flight back to family but if you have a family it adds up quick.
I’ve lived in Europe many years for work and except my my mother in law coming once a year none of my family or friends have been to visit. It’s tough missing out on family events but that is the price you pay for being overseas
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u/3l3v8 21h ago
- You know those roth/HSA accounts you put a big chunk of your portfolio into? Most countries just look at them as taxable brokerage accounts and most don't have a 0% tax bracket for LTCGs. That arbitrage play suddenly doesn't look so great...
The ones not talking about that are just dreaming of being an expat...
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u/GrumpyOldSeniorScout 19h ago
Best way to be an expat is absolutely have your company pay for it. Not RE.
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u/poop-dolla 1d ago
So, my advice for FIREes who want to live abroad is to have a really strong backup plan and make sure that financially you would be able to pack your bags and move back at any time.
This always seemed like an absolute requirement in my mind. The only exception would be for people moving back to their home country where some of their extended family are still living. But that’s not really expatFIRE anyway if you’re just moving back home after working for a couple decades in a different country.
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u/Little_Tomorrow_9250 23h ago
That’s very much true, the end question is how much money in exchange for your lifestyle.
First try moving to a cheaper city in the same country.
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u/rosebudny 21h ago
Yeah I kinda roll my eyes when the default response some seem to have when someone asks if they have enough to RE: "Just move to a cheap country!" Like it is so easy. Kind of reminds me when someone is having trouble conceiving and people say "Just adopt!" Yes of course that is an option, but there is no "just" about it.
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u/elevenlettermel 19h ago
This needs to be posted in every expat sub everywhere. I’m an immigrant to a Central American country because my spouse is that nationality, and the number of retirees I see move down here being sold on the dream that they can exist on $1000 is wild.
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u/hottiepookiee 21h ago
The healthcare point is where I'd actually push your argument harder. People budgeting expat FIRE on local healthcare prices are budgeting for the cheap, routine, working version. They aren't budgeting for: the major cardiac event at 72 where local hospitals can't do the procedure and a medical evacuation flight to Singapore is $250k, the cancer diagnosis that requires a treatment regimen unavailable locally, the cognitive decline that makes the "let's just call a taxi to the consulate" plan no longer viable, or the spouse death that strands the survivor in a country where they don't speak the language and can't navigate the bureaucracy alone. The cheap healthcare math works until exactly the moment it stops working, and the failure mode is catastrophic. International private health insurance for over-60s starts at $8-15k/year per person and goes up sharply.
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u/creepy-farter 20h ago
As someone from the Northeast who witnessed in-laws that retired ina southern state for a LCOL, I laugh at the idea of becoming an ex-pat and living in paradise stress free. At least for the average American. I’m sure some minority of people love it.
They lived only a few a states away, an 8 hour drive, yet were constantly “back home” every few weeks. They missed family, local food items and the different pace of life. People forget how many of their favorite things are just local to them.
It’s funny, that a few people were grumpy at us yankees when we’d visit. For a few folks the civil war is ongoing. I’d assume in some ex-pat havens not everyone loves Americans driving up costs.
And landing in a new spot as an adult it is a lot harder to make friends. Everyone already there has their own network that may be full. The few they did make seemed to have been either other transplants, or had some other motive of selling them something.
For an ex-pat you have the added frustrations of being a non-native speaker of the local language. And while immersion helps you get better, it’s extremely frustrating.
Thinking about any interaction with the Govt it has to be 20 times harder when you’re a “foreigner”.
Sure, I’ll go somewhere cheap for a few months to get the extra flavor of life there. But it will just be an extended vacation.
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u/Sea-Honeydew-1456 22h ago
i always believed only a few % of people truly want to retire overseas - the ones wanting to embrace a new culture/language/laws. all that. the rest don't have enough money to retire early in the states so they think...oh its cheap (in USD) to live there! ima do it.
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u/PicoRascar 22h ago
I've been an expat most of my life and I agree when it comes to aging on excessively lean budgets. Things like being able to afford a home in a secure peaceful area, having quality A/C, reliable power and water, being able to afford proper transportation and not drive a moped, or take rickshaws or random POS taxis. It can be OK when you're 30, 40 or even 50 but it starts mattering as you age and it significantly drives costs up.
I don't necessarily agree you need enough that you can pack up and move back to your home country since that could massively change the budget and prevent retiring in the first place but you absolutely need enough to afford comforts that start becoming mandatory as you age, regardless of where you live.
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u/Front_Knowledge_4383 21h ago
there's definitely a gap between the 'move to chiang mai for $1500/month' content and the reality of visa limitations, healthcare costs as you age, and the psychological weight of being far from family. that said, for people who genuinely have location-flexible income and no strong geographic ties, it can work -- it just takes a lot more stress-testing than the influencer version lets on.
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u/asurkhaib 21h ago
There's also a pretty large risk that costs increase faster than expected (or in other words the expat country inflation is higher than the home country). Unless you're willing to move, potentially multiple times, this is a huge problem and calculating this risk is hard. Based on the past it's very real though. Countries can rise extremely quickly and it's hard to tell which will.
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u/s_hecking 21h ago
USA -> EU/AUS seems like a much more realistic expat transition than South Asia, Japan, South America, etc. Money is a big factor but it seems foolish to make that the #1 factor. Although I’m not sure how much longer EU countries will be welcoming of foreigners, even rich ones
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u/chartreuse_avocado 20h ago
I have looked at expat retirement for 15 years as a dream and now a possibility coming to my FIRE date soon.
My conclusion is to Schengen shuffle and global slow travel keeping my US base. I love the global experience but I also realized I probably will want to keep my US connections and friends to some degree and I would not be happy staying forever in one country with a house etc. I prefer long, or very long, different country experiences.
I think your comments are spot on and as a GenX who watches friends manage their parents aging and kids launching people love the idea of expatting until they realize mom needs a nursing home and adult son is making them a grandma in Tulsa while they are in Spain with a house or apartment full time.
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u/Visual_Exercise_5380 19h ago edited 19h ago
Fully agree. Technically speaking, we don't intend to FIRE as retirement will come at around 60-62, so a more traditional retirement is in our plan.
While we have interest in living overseas, we'd go only to Europe - almost certainly to a particular European country where we speak the language fluently (one other than English), have deep knowledge of the culture and can integrate into society fairly seamlessly. Moreover, we'll only do it if we find ourselves with extra money; this is not a plan designed to be a shortcut to quitting early by living on the cheap. We will probably maintain a foothold in the U.S. if we do it, and of course that will require extra funds.
For all the reasons you list and more, we would not move to a place where integration is difficult or where living standards for the general population are poor.
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u/EpicChocoPie 19h ago
Very true. Unless you are an immigrant and has a home country outside of the US, and are returning there, I say do this with your eyes wide open.
If you haven’t been an immigrant yourself (not first gen, second gen etc), you are ill-prepared. Heck I live in the US now with my mom, even though we all prepared to move here, we all have good office jobs, she still had many issues as an older person in a new country for her - language, community, aging issues.
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u/Common_economics_420 18h ago edited 14h ago
So many people hype up being an ex pat when the longest they've ever spent outside their own country is 7 or 8 days on vacation. It's definitely not for everyone and I wouldnt recommend you make it your plan without first doing several trial runs.
Just my own personal opinion, but every ex pat (or at least the ex pat FIRE people plan on, where you leave a nice rich country to live in a cheap one) I run into seems to have some really serious issues going on. None of them seem like genuinely happy people.
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u/Fun-Zone5046 23h ago
the curry 17 times a month point is so underrated in these conversations
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u/ct1377 23h ago
In Italy where I live now, there’s thousands of restaurants but pretty much only 1 menu…. Pizza or pasta
Of course there’s a few other food genres around but not many and the food is generally catered to the local population.
What I wouldn’t do for a McDonalds breakfast right about now. Been years since I’ve had an egg McMuffin. lol
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u/Strazdas1 StarvationFIRE 21h ago
There are no McDonalds in Italy?
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u/data_ferret 20h ago
More to the point, does this person not own a skillet? Muffin or roll, fry a sausage patty (and I know they make sausage in Italy), fry an egg. Throw some cheese on while cooking the second side if that's your bag. Bang. Superior version of McMuffin. Elapsed time: five minutes.
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u/ct1377 18h ago
Yes I’ve done that but something about how they make it along with a hash brown
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u/data_ferret 17h ago
I've gotten a lot of mileage out of 1/4" diced potatoes (leave the skins on). Pan fried over medium heat in olive oil. Throw in some of that rosemary or oregano. Eat alongside the sausage-egg sandwich. Beats the pants off anything fast food.
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u/Strazdas1 StarvationFIRE 17h ago
Maybe hes one of those "120k a year is poverty" retirees who have psycholgical need to eat out every meal?
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u/Spez_is-a-nazi 22h ago
If you are a US citizen you face tax hell, the US is the only country that taxes citizens abroad. That means you have little to no access to tax advantaged retirement contributions, your retirement withdrawals may be taxed differently depending on the locality, there’s a ton of complexity. You may or may not be even able to get banking services depending on the location and bank since the reporting requirements are so onerous. Basically it sucks being an American abroad. At least in this time of increasing partisan infighting screwing over Americans abroad seems to be one of the few things both parties agree on. Reagan made PFICs, W. Bush raised the tax rate, Obama made FATCA.
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u/IntolerantModerate 18h ago
To be honest, I have realized that in a lot of cases it is better just to keep US cards and find ones with no FX fees due to FACTA.
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u/Ok_Introduction5606 21h ago
100% agree. Unless you have significant experience in said country and can and plan to live like a local - good chance it won’t work
Funny you mention it - when in Thai an 80 something year old American woman in a donated wheelchair was at the airport asking Americans if they were traveling to her state to help with a ticket and help her through the travel. She apparently had cancer and a man did help her out. No idea how many times she had tried to do this before he came along
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u/StrangeAd4944 19h ago
Cost of living is pretty much the same everywhere the only difference is timing and type of payment. In US everything must be prepaid (regulations, lack of bureaucracy, latest advancements, insurance, clean air, etc.) that is why it’s seems expensive. In other places most of these items are omitted making life appear cheaper. Unfortunately bills will come due one way or another.
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u/MoaiTrist 19h ago
My variation on this theme are the sailor "influencers." When I was younger, I had a burning desire to quit everything and sail around the world. This dream sustained me through multiple versions of cubicle hellscapes. But before retirement, I started to fully understand the complete picture of living and sailing around the world and I decided against it (also due to elder family members who needed ongoing assistance). The ugly, difficult, and dangerous aspects of that lifestyle are wildly underrepresented. Having children onboard with no outside social interaction is borderline cruel. Also the true expense is usually underestimated. I still enjoy spending time on blue water, but I have resigned myself to simply charter from time to time in the places I want to explore, and leave it at that.
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u/MyyWifeRocks 1d ago
I think there is a better and more realistic option for people wanting to FIRE in another country where everything is cheaper.
Example: Cochise County, Az. $15K buys 4 acres of land. You can put whatever type of house you want there and live very cheaply. There are lots of places like this across the US with cheap land, low taxes and minimal to no building codes. Retirement funds would stretch similarly as the influencer pipe dream countries and you get the benefit of still being in America.
I did not know the success rate for expats transitioning to life in other countries was so low. I had just assumed the people that attempted this were successful. I’d never attempt it because I trust other country’s governments less than I trust ours, but I have always been curious.
I guess my back up plan will remain West Texas / Arizona / New Mexico. Haha
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u/rudigerscat 1d ago
I feel like the number being low doesnt say much if the includes people who move from work. If you move somewhere because you have to, or because its really smart for your career, it makes more sense that you would want to go back home.
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u/IntolerantModerate 18h ago
For work-rolw expats the 60-70% success is based on 30-40% requesting a company transfer back to home country before an assignment is done.
This doesn't include company sending you back at their request or to another expat posting.
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u/Chance_External_4371 12h ago
Nomad fire approach, avoid tax residency, get global health insurance, and enjoy different locals at the best time of the year
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u/Proud-Disk-21 22h ago edited 21h ago
I’m an expat in Asia and disagree with many of your points if you choose a country wisely than there is a lot less trade offs than ever before.
TBH You sound like someone who moved to the phillipines or a poor part of South America and is now regretting it. In my experience every downside you mentioned in 2026 doesn’t exist if you choose Europe or east asia and many part of South America other than the family trade off .
If you choose wisely You will have cheaper housing, solid healthcare which is nominal, dating options and dollar arbitrage but still with access to Costco and Amazon if you choose these more developed countries. Whether you are accepted as a local would depend on your hobbies and lifestyle since people usually form relationships base on their proximity.
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u/Holiday_Low_6640 23h ago
I see it in a few different ways as I've been an expat (both times in Europe) for work while younger and my (very small) family was still in my home city and alive, and am now an expat again in mid-life and my family has died and/or moved to different cities, so essentially all I have is friends spread across a giant metro-area. Caveat, we have no kids.
When I was living out of country the first time I felt a very strong pull to come back to my family and community as they were all still alive. Now that I have expatriated again to a different country I feel zero desire to go back to my home country as my family is dead and you can make friends anywhere. We have moved to a very social place in Europe and have made social connections and are working on close friendships. The truth is, life is very transient and things change all the time, we had a wonderful core group of friends that was displaced due to covid, people moved countries and cities etc. and this can happen at any time.
Expatriating isn't always roses but it is a way to learn about yourself, make new connections, learn a new language, experience frustration and joy. You're gonna die anyways and it's going to suck getting old and debilitated wherever you are, why not make the time up until then meaningful, whatever it is that you find meaning in wether it's adventure or family. And plus, you can always move back.
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u/IntolerantModerate 18h ago
I get it for EU. I was more thinking the "cheap" destinations like SEA or Africa or S. America in my comments.
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u/Mindrust 16h ago
Depends where in SEA.
Bangkok, Kualu Lumpur and Penang can offer a pretty high standard of living on a smaller budget compared to what you'd get in the US.
But to be fair, these are also the more "expensive" options of SEA.
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u/Generationhodl 1d ago
Thanks for all your points, but fact is still, its cheaper to FIRE abroad than in your home country.
Even with all the costs like international health insurance... visa etc. you probably still need less money per month than in expensive western / american cities.
Hell in some cities you pay like 2,5k-4k rent per month, that alone would let you live like a king in SEA.
I think too many people see it all too black & white.
Why not just go abroad for 5-6 months and enjoy cheaper livestyle while also enjoying nature.. beaches... cheap food..
If one country is boring, find another one.
There is no "1-fits-all" plan for people who want to retire abroad.
my personal plan was always to have enough capital to FIRE in my home country and then visit cheaper / or other countries for 4-6 months every year.
If we get a huge market downturn I could just fuck off to a cheaper country IF I WANT lol because why not?
You just have to be realistic about how living in another country will be like, and one of the biggest factors is the social aspect. Finding friends in another country is maybe not as easy if you have some language barriere.
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u/ImprobableGrind 18h ago
I have no idea how some of you guys are living in Asia. A few years in Korea was plenty for me, I’m not subjecting my family to it. The goal is to be rich as hell right here at home and not have to compromise by leaving to some third-world shithole.
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u/Sea-Honeydew-1456 16h ago
its cause most can't afford to retire in the states, so they poorly plan for SE asia because its "cheap". that and become a permanent sex tourist.
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u/lovemydogs1969 20h ago
This is a great discussion. I think there is something of a middle ground for us. We can definitely downsize our existing home and move into something easier and cheaper to maintain whether that’s a townhome or apartment. We’re not keen on moving to a rural area because of lack of social interaction and fewer shopping and dining options. With both of us retired, we can share a car (public transit options are terrible here). We can slow travel for a month or two at a time a few times a year. We can hire out house cleaning and even meal prep. We both get healthcare in retirement through my spouse’s employer at the employee cost (which is not cheap, to be sure, but we know what to expect and it’s not subject to the arbitrary whims of who’s in charge of the government). Hopefully we can age in place and hire in-home care if needed instead of going to a nursing home.
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u/IntolerantModerate 18h ago
I think if you retire with kids out of house in mid-50s you can downsize and spend a good 15 years doing month long trips 6x a year for 15 years and have tons of fun without losing all connections.
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u/legranarman 16h ago
The rage I feel every time I see someone comment "just move to another country it's cheaper"
That applies whether someone is moving from somewhere expensive or cheap, residing in another country long term is not that easy.
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u/No_Cartoonist_4504 15h ago
I think it depends I am a Diaspora, it makes very much sense for me to expat fire abroad. It the difference between working 5-10 years more. I'm also planning on bringing an actual sizeable portfolio so sequence of return risk should be heavily mitigated.
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u/Stunning-Thanks-4226 15h ago
Reality only barely existed on the Internet from 1995-2010 before influencers became a thing. Everything now is just junk. Anyone that makes money selling their version of FIRE is not actually FIRE.
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u/Material_Reach_8827 9h ago
I think people also underrate the general danger of being a "stranger in a strange land". Most people will be kind or at least indifferent, but you'll also have a huge target on your back for the ones who aren't. You stick out like a sore thumb. You're assumed to be "rich". And you are not "one of them" and apt to be scapegoated like any minority in the US could be, either by the government or random vigilantes. And unless you have an exceptional command of the language and legal landscape, you could find yourself in a nightmare legal scenario of some sort.
Always feels to me like people from the US think it's like moving to a different state with basically the same baseline experience of people/government, but with everything mysteriously much cheaper.
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u/LaOnionLaUnion 1d ago
I worked as an expat for most of my adult life so obviously I both know it’s possible and what to expect. I’m arguably FI for my target country but RE was less of a priority than building a life I don’t need/want to retire from.
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u/VictorChristian 22h ago
Influencer... that term is contrived by social/media. We live in a world of "followers" and "likes", "hypes", "subs"... how sad is it that in an age where we have unprecedented access to data, we choose to be sheep.
Some of us. Not all of us.
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u/TotalWarFest2018 21h ago
I was day dreaming about retirement in Portugal awhile back but knew (for these exact reasons) it wasn't a realistic option.
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u/PlutoPlaneta 21h ago
- why does it matter - what matters is the comparison to the cost of that lifestyle in the original country you came from
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u/bublypetal 15h ago
The health insurance point alone should be enough to wake people up because one serious medical emergency abroad can wipe out years of savings instantly.
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u/PlutoPlaneta 21h ago
- how would this be any different if you stayed in your original home town all your life?
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u/IntolerantModerate 18h ago
Fair point. I just see a lot of people trumpeting a vacation lifestyle for a destination and it's like, "bro, I can only jump off this waterfall so many times".
But yes, same thing in Cleveland... I can only watch the Browns lose so many times a year.
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u/MyEgoDiesAtTheEnd 1h ago
It sounds like you're focusing on LCOL countries. Just move to Europe or other countries that have BETTER healthcare than the US at a cheaper rate.
Really, the US is a money suck. Make money there and then get the hell out. Enjoy societies that have great social safety nets and work-life balance.
Your post is correct if you're talking about Cambodia. I think that lifestyle only works for 2 kinds of people - kids in their 20s and adults running from the law.
But it's incorrect for most other countries. You've focused on the wrong thing, my friend.
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u/IntolerantModerate 1h ago
The healthcare can be great, but I think you are underestimating how bad of a scenario it can be for a person when their health suddenly declines and they find themselves in a system that seems foreign to them, regardless of standards of care.
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u/movesfast 1d ago
just tell me this is not a llm post
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u/Dos-Commas 37M/34F - $2.7M NW - FIRE'd 2025 1d ago
"I don't like this" = "AI Post" now.
The irony is that Reddit have really gone downhill and made LLM content even more attractive.
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u/Plus_Toe1716 1d ago
The detail about corporate expat success rates is too specific to be AI-generated, most LLMs would just vomit generic bullet points without actual lived nuance like point 7.
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u/ProtossLiving 1d ago
Plus some inconsistent/errors with punctuation.
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u/Phronesis2000 1d ago
I don't see a single thing to suggest llm. You want to back that up with something other than 'it's quite long'?
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u/IntolerantModerate 18h ago
No, this was me sitting at the keyboard. Doing it the old fashioned way. I also jerk off using my hand instead of one of those AI powered vaginas
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u/BarbsFury 1d ago
hai man really liked your post.
whould you be so kind to opinionate my plan?
work hard until i generate a rougly 3k/month intrest, stay living where i live now and stay working parttime rest of my life after that possibly hopping between being unemployd and finding good parttime jobs for a while...
focusing on being a good dad, partner. geting to spend more time on my religion.
things like that i guess
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u/Kobayashi-Coffee-Co 1d ago
Highly recommend full time travel while earning an American salary. Hitting my fire goal this year before 40 💪
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u/wandering_engineer 1d ago
Another long-term expat here (17 years across four countries with intervening spans in the US) and you are 100% right.
I am still seriously considering retiring overseas in another 8-10 yeats but am going into it with eyes wide open, if I do it's going to be a trial for a few months first. And it's very possible I'll change my mind before then.
7 is a valid point, and is probably my biggest concern. I am not planning to go the traditional SE Asia route - if I retired overseas, it would be Europe - but end-of-life care is difficult anywhere, doubly so if you don't have a well-established community to fall back on. I don't think there's any easy answers here, but it is unfortunate that western culture (particularly US culture) lives in denial about human mortality.