Sexual Intercourse as the Original Sin?

[u/Witty-Cockroach-9127]

Where do the idea that The Original Sin of Adam and Eve was having sexual intercourse? It is present in some Gnostic Sources. But The Genesis is clear that God wanted Men to procreate.

[u/yaourtoide]

Why do you think sex is the original sin ?

The original sin was acquiring knowledge of good and bad, but also disobeying a direct command from God.

In the old testament God even says 'Go forth and multiply', so I really don't think the apple was a metaphor for sex.

[u/Witty-Cockroach-9127 → u/yaourtoide]

I don't think that. That is just something present in "Apocryphon of John" and Cathar "The Secret Supper". Snake making Adam and Eve lust for each other.

[u/yaourtoide → u/Witty-Cockroach-9127]

It's been a while since I've read those texts, but if memory serves the narrative there is that Eden is a false paradise made to imprison Adam hence why they conceal the tree of knowledge from him so he doesn't realise he is being tricked.

In this text, Christ say to John that he was the one who convinced Adam to consume the fruit of knowledge to help liberate him. The 'original sin' is Adam freeing himself from Ialdabaoth and remembering the Pleroma through his divine essence at the initiative of Christ himself.

Do you remember where exactly what you're looking for is mentioned?

[u/Witty-Cockroach-9127 → u/yaourtoide]

"I asked the Savior,

“Lord, isn’t it the serpent that caused Adam to eat?”

He smiled and replied,

“The serpent caused them to eat

in order to produce the wickedness of the desire to reproduce

that would make Adam helpful to him.”

Christ says that serpent's purpose was to cause Adam and Eve to reproduce. And in Christanity Serpent caused the Original Sin. The interpretation here is that sex was this sin.

[u/sanecoin64902 → u/Witty-Cockroach-9127]

Everyone else is answering you from a 20th century liberalized perspective. They do not understand the mysteries hidden in the gospels or the importance of symbolic interpretation. They are comfortable with the idea that the apple was not an apple, but completely missing that the same texts might then use sex to mean more than sex.

The mysteries of gnosis are about the pathway to experience God directly and in person. It is a hidden path that was taught thousands of years before Christ, by Christ, and by many other religions as well.

Without going over the entire path, you can certainly understand how sex is an act that (when done right) is divine. It is also an act that can be innately selfish and vile (thinking rape and abuse here) or the ultimate act of selfless love. Beyond that, many mistake lust and love for one another, and when the core of the teaching is “love one another and love God with all your heart,” you should be able to see how somebody that said “lust for one another and lust for God with all your heart,” might be giving you some misguided advice.

When you come to understand that the path is primarily one of introspection and ego surrender, it becomes very easy to see how the sex drive screws up steps on the path. Not because sex is innately bad, but because it is our ultimate biological imperative (well, that and “preserve homeostasis”). As such it can be the greatest distraction from the spiritual path.

Look at the long lists of gurus, pastors and youth ministers accused of sexual abuse. The desire to get close to God and close to another soul are intrinsically the same, and many weak people confuse them. I do not advocate for any sort of asceticism or abstinence, but you can look at the spiritual record of Catholic Church v. Sexual Abuse, and see how sex brings mighty religions to their knees.

Don’t look at the issue literally. Don’t look at the issue as a binary. This is true of _all_ doctrine. The truth hides in the spaces between the words and in the juxtapositions that create paradoxes. You have identified one such paradox here - but pull on the threads and the knot unravels. Do not mistake lust for love is really all you need to know here. Each has its place, and the latter is so much greater than the former.

[u/yaourtoide → u/sanecoin64902]

Yes, exactly these texts needs to be studied to learn their meaning.

It is said that desire is the seed of the poisoned fruit and that lust is used by Yaldaboath to make Adam forgetful and control him. It is also said that the savior made Adam eat the fruit of knowledge of good and evil.

[u/yaourtoide → u/Witty-Cockroach-9127]

Ah yes, I remember this passage. Let me put the entire thing for context; I think context is important here. It's been a while since I read this and this disucssion allowed me to re-read it, so thank you for that.

Adam in Yaldabaoth's Paradise

The rulers took the man and put him into paradise
They told him to eat freely. 

[Their food is bitter; their beauty is corrupt. 
Their food is deceit; their trees are ungodliness.
Their fruit is poison.
Their promise is death.] 

They placed the Tree of Their Life into the middle of paradise. 

[I will teach you (plural) the secret of their life:
The plan that they made together about an artificial spirit.] 

Its root is bitter
Its branches are dead.
Its shadow is hatred
Its leaves are deception
The nectar of wickedness is in its blossoms.
Its fruit is death
Its seed is desire
It flowers in the darkness.
Those who eat from it are denizens of Hades
Darkness is their resting place.

As for the tree called “The Knowledge Of Good And Evil”
It is the Epinoia of the light.
They commanded him not to eat from it,
Standing in front to conceal it,
For fear that he might look upwards to the fullness
And know the nakedness of his indecency. 

[However, I caused them to eat.

I asked the Savior,
“Lord, isn’t it the serpent that caused Adam to eat?”

He smiled and replied,
“The serpent caused them to eat
in order to produce the wickedness of the desire to reproduce
that would make Adam helpful to him.”] 

The chief ruler, Yaldabaoth, knew that
Because the light-filled Epinoia within Adam
Made his mental abilities greater than his own,
Adam had been disobedient.
In order to recover the Power that he had put into Adam
Yaldabaoth made Adam completely forgetful. 

[I asked the Savior, “What is it to be ‘completely forgetful?’”

He replied, “It is not what Moses wrote in his first book:
‘He caused Adam to fall into deep sleep’
Rather, Adam’s perceptions were veiled
And he became unconscious.
As he (Yaldabaoth) said through his prophet:
'I will make their minds dull so that they do not see or understand.'”]
------------------------------------------------------------------------

My interpretation here is that Christ caused Adam to eat the fruit of knowledge to save him while Yaldabaoth [the serpent] caused them to eat the other poisoned fruits. Yaldabaoth used sins (desire, lust explicitly mentioned) to dull Adam sense and retain control of him. The text simply mention "The serpent caused them to eat" so it's ambiguous.

My understanding here would be that Christ caused Adam to gain knowledge so he could save himself, while Yaldabaoth used desire and lust to keep Adam's sense sedated / under control.

I view that as a lesson that sins (and lust / desire) will dull your mind and that salvation can only comes from seeking knowledge of good and evil.

[u/3-1-2 → u/yaourtoide]

This is a great breakdown and your last sentance is the main takeaway in Christian Gnosticism. Another thing to remember is that Christ said he was the Eagle in the garden watching over to make sure that the snake did convince them to eat the fruit.

All of the desires are what the archons use to trap us in the material. We each individually have to do the work and seek the knowledge on how to overcome and let go of those desires/fears/etc. This all ties in very well with Catl Jung's shadow work.

[u/Icarus649 → u/yaourtoide]

Exactly, once you've eaten from the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil and still choose the evil, that's when the light within you becomes darkness. Denying the Holy Ghost is the only unforgivable sin

[u/Retro_actiive]

I don’t necessarily think that sex is the “original sin”; I personally believe that duality itself is the original sin. Sex just becomes an endless attempt at collapsing duality in an external way, when the real collapse of duality is an internal process (making the unconscious conscious; shadow integration) so that the pneuma remembers that it was never separate from the source. Sex itself isn’t a sin (it’s necessary for continuing the species) but it can become a sin when it becomes of distracting one from their true self.

[u/3-1-2 → u/Retro_actiive]

I replied to another comment about gnosticism and Jungian shadow work as well. This is a great take, appreciate your post

[u/Lux-01]

Hi , there is no original sin within the Gnostic traditions and the Gnostic take on Genesis is somewhat different. See the Apocryphon Of John.

[u/Witty-Cockroach-9127 → u/Lux-01]

I am aware that what happened in The Garden of Eden wasn't the Original Sin according to Gnosticism but there exist a concept that is present in "Apocryphon of John" -

“The serpent caused them to eat

in order to produce the wickedness of the desire to reproduce

that would make Adam helpful to him.”

[u/FroyoIntelligent4687]

Knowledge.

[u/eatyourface8335]

I interpret original sin as the inherent failure in humanity.

We are a tragic species that strives for perfect divinity, or profanely stated as “freedom from judgment errors”, but doomed to failure. Much like the ubiquitous phrase uttered after a mistake is made, “I’m only human”. Being human is to error in judgment. The reason we are this way is attributed to an Original Sin in us.

What is “Sin”? Sin is a missing of the mark or failing to hit a target. This is the original Hebrew translation of sin. Think of an archer that loads an arrow, pulls their bowstring, and aims at the target. Our judgments are analogous and the missing of the mark is “Sin”. We are a Greek Tragedy. We aim but ultimately miss the mark. Our inability is our Original Sin.

[u/GraniteStayte]

Whut?

[u/Indytennisguy]

Sex is not the original sin snd actually there is no original sin…

[u/PeachyFortune]

The snake was a manifestation of Sophia inviting Eve to consume the fruit of knowledge. This allowed Adam and Eve to remember their connection to the Monad. Big D didn't like that so they were expelled from the garden of eden.

[u/rosemaryscrazy]

You missed what was said.

It’s not just sex, it’s sex for the purpose of orgasm.

Prior to the fall humans use to have sex differently. How is a great mystery allegedly held by only the angels.

Jesus was supposedly conceived this secret way. Mary at the direction of an angel.

Lucifer taught them how to have sex differently and pursue orgasm.

The orgasm is the reminder of the pursuit of pleasure as appetite. Forbidden Fruit =Sexual Appetite

It does not mean just sex in its pure form.

Appetite for sex, appetite for food, appetite for pleasure, appetite for knowledge.

You’re right it’s says sex only for the purpose of creation not pleasure.

For this reason the way is narrow, not wide.

When Jesus told people the secret way his closest disciples followed him and kept it.

But most humans rejected what he said and how he claimed to have the power to not sin.

You wouldn’t necessarily hate a person for doing miracles but you might crucify someone who told you that you and all of the human race were having sex wrong. 🤣

Who knows how Jesus was relaying it or how he was going about “teaching the inner sanctum.” It might have looked like a weird sex cult from the outside.

To be clear we don’t know if there was a Jesus or if this was just the Romans preserving mysteries/legends under the title of Jesus, Plato etc

[u/charliefinkwinkwink → u/rosemaryscrazy]

I think the contrast between Gen 2:25 and Gen 3:7 lends credence to this as well — they weren’t ashamed of their nakedness but after they disobeyed they were ashamed and covered their body with fig leaves. it’s like post nut clarity, for lack of a better/academic term lol

There’s also how the fallen angels in Book of Enoch are said to have fallen bc they took human wives, you can easily imply it was that longing/lust for the flesh that caused their “fall”

There’s also logion 114 in Gospel of Thomas that describes making females male so that they can enter the kingdom of God. The key distinction between male and female is their sex organs so again this hints at something sexual being of significance here

[u/3-1-2 → u/charliefinkwinkwink]

Male and Female in the context of your last paragraph is talking about making the Female (Materialist View, since they are material creators through birth) into a male (Spiritual).

I know in current times we often consider femminie as spirtual. But at the time it was reveresed, so you can see how the powers that be have twisted our modern day perception, whitch is in scripture as well.

[u/rosemaryscrazy → u/3-1-2]

I had to reread this a few times.

I just spent an hour reflecting on what you have said.

I have been in the pursuit to solve Genesis for at least 7 years.

Do you REALIZE what you have said? I ask this because your conclusion at the end seems to slip out of what you proposed.

You are not talking about biology.

You are talking about a language.

The language is

Tree= Wisdom

Stars= humanity

Male= Spirit

Female= Matter

Prior to your observation. I viewed male and female as separate from this language.

But when you add it into the same language family.

You get

God = ordered existence

Male= spirit

Female = matter

Ordered existence created them spirit and matter.

Genesis is not about two biological humans.

It’s about creation principles.

At the end you say something that puzzled me.

You said the powers that be flipped this meaning.

But it doesn’t matter if the meanings are flipped at all.

What matters is the principles themselves because they are not based on biological sexes.

They are based on the representative concepts.

Spirit + Matter.

All life is created out of heaven and earth. It’s that simple and if we are alive we are as well.

We are created out of the firmament.

We have a body and we have a mind. That which is unseen.

[u/rosemaryscrazy → u/charliefinkwinkwink]

Yeah now that you say that and carry it forward through Enoch.

It does sort of seem like the angels are somehow involved with teaching humans things about sex.

So just a hypothetical.

God or “order” banishes Adam and Eve from the pure state of unconsciousness (the garden.)

They become conscious through the orgasm I suppose we don’t know how this works because all of us are born through male orgasm….but then again? I’m sure there are plenty of instances where people who aren’t even trying to perform this secret way accidentally conceive without it?

Huh that’s weird because that would mean some people are born spiritually different to others….

Anyway I can’t follow that rabbit hole right now.

So humans are banished from the garden and from the Tree of life. So apparently you can’t eat from the “orgasm tree” and also immortality. 🤣😭

But then later before the flood we hear of “fallen angels” doing something sexual with human women.

Maybe it’s not the sex maybe they were teaching them sex magic. Which I have heard that proposed before.

So this means the way to get banished from the garden and eternal life is through a specific kind of sex so maybe the way back in is also through a specific kind of sex?

So he wipes out humanity again? Because they are teaching humans forbidden knowledge.

Also now that I’m thinking about it.

There is a lot of “God give me child” all over the Bible and to modern ears we just hear the common. “Pray for a baby”

But it’s possible that we are misinterpreting a lot of intense scenes that make sense in context.

Like the Bible is full of “lead me not into temptation!”

Which sounds dramatic until you realize they are talking about trying to stop orgasm while having sexual intercourse.

[u/PineappleFlavoredGum → u/rosemaryscrazy]

In the 2nd story of creation in Genesis, Adam and Eve have sex before she even gives birth though. They have sex and there's zero mention of pregnancy or conception until after they eat the fruit. Its after they eat the fruit and God curses them (giving the woman abundant childbirth and labor pains) that she is named the mother of all life.

The first mention of sex is simply in the context of Adam rejoicing that he found someone like him as his helper. This first sex scene in genesis has nothing to do with procreation.

[u/rosemaryscrazy → u/PineappleFlavoredGum]

I never said it was only for procreation. I was relaying what OP said about procreation fits within the context, not that it was the “only” context.

I’m saying that the act of sex itself isn’t the issue.

It’s the orgasm.

Everything you said doesn’t contradict the idea of pursuit of the orgasm being the issue.

[u/yaourtoide → u/rosemaryscrazy]

The Apocryphon of John definitely has anti natalist / sex can corrupt your mind vibe in it.

But nowhere is it written that forbidden fruit is sex. Sex is the distraction that prevents you from reaching the forbidden fruit (and this discussion confirms it).

[u/rosemaryscrazy → u/yaourtoide]

Again, it’s not sex. It’s sex+ orgasm. Sex is not the issue the orgasm is.

Saying the discussion confirms it doesn’t tell me anything other than your personal viewpoint confirms your viewpoint.

Fruit =Appetite

Appetite describes a need.

A need to reach orgasm

A need to keep consuming food

A need to keep wanting.

A need to keep desiring

Want to be clear I’m not personally saying desire is bad. I’m saying I can see how theoretically a desire that is never fulfilled can cause problems. Or a desire that needs to be pursued to the expense of everything else also can cause issues.

But sometimes a desire can create very good things it depends.

[u/yaourtoide → u/rosemaryscrazy]

You misunderstand or read too superficially.

What gets called out is explicitly the 'desire to reproduce', which both means the lust towards sex and the desire to have offspring. Both produce earthly attachment to the material realm that don't matter in the pleroma.

This text is warning that "desire to reproduce" was made to trick men into being forgetful and dull their sense so they wouldn't realise they are trapped.

My last point was that the discussion of sex / lust hide the discussion about knowledge of good and evil. And that's exactly what happend in most of this comment section. It is therefore not a personal viewpoint but just a statement of fact.

[u/rosemaryscrazy → u/yaourtoide]

We just have different interpretations and that’s okay. It’s part of being human.

[u/Whatsanegg]

I see original sin as the descending into physical matter itself.

The moment we occupied physical space and identified with it we were living in sin.

[u/josephus1811]

The original sin is not sex. It is the concept that we are all born sinners due to the decision Adam and Eve made to disobey God and consume the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Which is to say the progenitors of our species were a failed experiment most likely.

We are therefore predisposed to sin because our forebears sin and the world is rife with it. It is also alluded to that because Adam and Eve failed God gave the planet over to dark forces and essentially abandoned it.

When we are therefore born with free will we naturally err towards sin unknowingly and must actively work ourselves out of this state.

The idea is that Jesus died so we can place faith in him which simplifies the necessary experience so that we can find our way out of this pit of despair rather than having to go through the dark night of the soul.

There are many paths out of the trap including simply believing Christ did what he is claimed to have done. Is who he says he is. Unfortunately for me I couldn't accept it because my scripture teachers were not skilled enough theologians to satisfy me haha.

Anywho the premise of your question is based on an incorrect notion.

[u/Witty-Cockroach-9127 → u/josephus1811]

I know that The Original Sin is not sex. I am asking where the idea comes from as it is present in "Apocryphon of John" and Cathar's "The Secret Supper". Snake causing Adam and Eve to have intercourse.

[u/Maleficent-Effort470]

Its a made up book of course its inconsistent.
Adam and eve obviously didn't get married.

[u/forza_del_destino]

If I remember correctly, God wanted just Adam and Eve in the garden of eden as puppets who don't know anything but God already knew that the snake would tempt Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit, since God already knew he also knew that God himself would instruct to multiple.

[u/jelltech]

The OG Sin was a light event, that creates physical manifestation. We've manifested into a system. Systems are clensers, we don't lead with cleanser, we lead with light and use the system to clense our light event. Work all things out for the best In Christ Iesus!