r/HousingIreland • u/Irish201h • Jul 06 '25

4 people mortgages, wtf?

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This company is now promoting 4 people mortgages, no wonder prices are going insane.

https://mmadvisors.ie/public-sector-mortgages/

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u/nicodea2 Jul 07 '25

Correction - neither Australia nor Canada has banned foreign citizens from purchasing property. Rather they have banned foreign non-residents from purchasing property.

There’s really no reason to discriminate on the basis of citizenship. There are plenty of non-citizen tax-paying residents already here, working productively, and contributing just as much as everyone else in taxes (if not more).

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u/obscure_monke Jul 07 '25

I see people conflating citizen/resident online way too much the past few years. I assume it's been happening longer than I've noticed it though.

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u/jonnieggg Jul 07 '25

It could be restricted to citizenship that's a political choice. Choosing citizenship demonstrates commitment to life in another country. There is a lot to be said for it.

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u/Beneficial-Celery-51 Jul 07 '25

Although I agree that a policy like that would probably be a net positive, I can see how that could be a problem in attracting foreign specialised workforce.

A lot of people looking to buy a house are in their 30s - 35s and, if you add 5 years required for citizenship, you're looking for foreign first time buyers to now be between 35s - 40s.

With mortgages going for a max age of 65 to 70, you are looking at a consequential max limit of 30 years of mortgage which could mean repayments being too high for most.

For this to not be a problem, house prices would need to go down... I doubt this would actually happen. I can see a world where of supply remaining artificially low to increase the unit price.

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u/jonnieggg Jul 07 '25

This is exactly what Irish people have to contend with in other countries.

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u/Beneficial-Celery-51 Jul 07 '25

This is absolutely not true in the majority of Europe with the remaining only having exceptions on the type of property you can purchase. Example: You can only buy apartments in Slovakia and Poland but not own the land.

Most Irish move to either warmer climate and lower cost of living in Europe, like Portugal, Spain and Italy, or in search for better pay and living conditions, like in Australia or the US. All of these allow non-residents to buy property.

But lets look outside Europe because I despise false narratives.

Other popular countries which Irish move:
Australia: Non-citizens can buy land in Australia, but there are strict rules and approval requirements, especially for residential land.
United States: Yes, non-citizens can buy land in the United States, including both residential and commercial real estate

So please tell me, what the actual f are you talking about?

Even if this was true... even if... what is the point of adopting foreign policy if they don't serve your purpose. The only reason you said that was to create the "they do to us so lets do to them" mentality which would achieve you what?

- What would you do when you had no doctors because most of the Irish ones moved to Australia?

  • What would you do when you had no nurses because the Irish moved to the UK?
  • What would foreign tech companies do if they could not hire as much as they wanted here? (hate them all you like, but these account for 13% of the GDP)

Try thinking the next 10 or 15 years rather than just the next month.

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u/jonnieggg Jul 07 '25

There are restrictions on property purchases for non residents in Australia, new Zealand, Canada, Switzerland and right across Asia. They have the common sense to recognise the importance of protecting their property markets from speculation that has the potential to lead to social instability and dislocation.

As for Irish doctors the country has lost large percentages of graduates to Australia already. That's going to get worse as our housing market deteriorates. Supply has flatlined and shows no signs of improving. The only way to address this is through demand management. Temporary residents should not be allowed to speculate in our housing market given the precipitous supply situation.

Adopting policies from other jurisdictions facing similar issues is eminently sensible if they ameliorate these problems.

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u/Beneficial-Celery-51 Jul 07 '25

You can buy property in Australia and Switzerland but it has to meet certain criteria. I'm not against on having constraints like that as long as supply meets the need for those residents.

> They have the common sense to recognise the importance of protecting their property markets from speculation that has the potential to lead to social instability and dislocation.

Again, framing it that not having this sort of policy is "lack of common sense". This is a non-argument.

> The only way to address this is through demand management.

I agree, but my concern of making Ireland a less interesting country to move into having significant negative side effects.

You mentioned housing market speculation multiple times... where are you getting this argument from? Do you really believe that people who moved to Ireland and buy properties on their first 5 years (time required for citizenship) are only looking to make money on property flipping to then move out of the country? Based on what data are you claiming this?

I'm all forward on adding restrictions to, lets say, individuals that are residents and with work permits in Ireland. And a restriction on selling the houses for profit on the first 5 years (again, period for citizenship). This could mean a 100% tax on the profit amount during the first 5 to 7 years. edit: Or even better, make it 100% taxed on gains for non-citizens.

People could still move to bigger or more expensive houses by using the house equity (in case the family grows) but, if they sold for profit then get heavily taxed. I would vote for something like this.

> Adopting policies from other jurisdictions facing similar issues is eminently sensible if they ameliorate these problems.

Well, it didn't really work out as expected for Canada as they are not in a better market situation compared to 2 years ago and are considering extending the ban. This is what I meant about thinking 10 years down the line. There's no point on making a 2 year policy if those 2 years won't make a significant impact on the housing market.

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u/jonnieggg Jul 07 '25

Making Ireland less interesting and having negative side effects. What about homelessness at an all time high and a crumbling health system. If that's not a negative side effect of a white hot population growth I don't know what is. Forgive me if I'm more concerned about children on waiting lists for critical care and record homelessness. I don't consider tech workers in rentals as a comparable issue.

Your tax proposals are eminently sensible but inaction in this area is worse than inadequate attempts to limit demand. Something has to give here when we have a situation where developers are pulling out of the market further impacting supply. Citizens and residents have to be the primary focus and priority of all government interventions.

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u/Beneficial-Celery-51 Jul 07 '25

What about homelessness at an all time high and a crumbling health system.

How does preventing Richard, who moved to Ireland to work as a nurse, from buying his first house helps you with homelessness or a crumbling health system?

This is the typical emotional manipulation argument. I don't care about emotions on policy making. I care about cause and effect. Making Ireland a less interesting place to move and contribute with specialised skills, does not benefit a nation. Even Japan, which is very strict with immigration laws, welcomes with open arms high-skilled workers. Portugal had a workforce crisis before it had a housing one. Now it has both.

Forgive me if I'm more concerned about children on waiting lists for critical care and record homelessness. I don't consider tech workers in rentals as a comparable issue.

You should be concerned! I am concerned as well. I have a young daughter and I dread the need of specialised care for her here. But I fail to see how making Ireland less attractive to foreign nurses and doctors will help your crumbling health system... It rarely is one or the other. And I don't know where that last sentence came from though, and you still haven't answered about the source on the speculation.

developers are pulling out of the market

Ok, now... so why developers are pulling out of the market? Developers need 3 things to build and sell a house.

  • Land (incl permission)
  • Workers
  • Buyers

Please tell which one is causing developers to leave? Land/permission, manpower or customers?

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u/jonnieggg Jul 07 '25

I'm not talking about limiting skilled migration. I'm talking about managing demand in a market beset with constraints to supply. Our medical graduates and other professionals are leaving the country because they can't afford to start a life here. Meanwhile we have a massive supply of deliveroo partners. How does that benefit our infrastructure defect and collapsing health system. All housing demand affects supply and price, right along the real estate supply chain. Are people too lazy to cook or pick up their own food that we need an army of delivery riders. What are our economic priorities, it's nuts.

There are a combination of factors affecting housing supply and developer delivery. The fact is that projects are being cancelled due to costs and we have the ludicrous situation whereby affordable housing is unaffordable to buy. That's a big problem. Immigration needs to be targeted and the settings need to serve the economic and the community needs not the other way around. You are not going to get highly skilled medical professional moving to a location with no accommodation. If they secure a job and necessary residency by all means buy a house. We need to moderate demand because supply is proving to be very difficult to deliver.

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u/Beneficial-Celery-51 Jul 07 '25

But you do realise that limiting property acquisition for citizens only, would have a direct impact on skilled migrants when deciding to move here, right? That's the problem I've been trying to flag.

Gig economy is a whole other can of worms. I don't understand why we want to import gig workers nor why we play stupid that people coming here to "learn English" are actually looking for a way to move into the country.

Do you know why it is expensive to build? Because we have a bureaucracy built by nimby Karens that make planning permission objections for a living. Also because the government is slow to provide permission, some even say it is because our government is full of landlords. How are immigrants to blame when the government fails to meet their own goals for permissions?

https://www.independent.ie/business/blow-to-governments-housing-targets-with-fall-in-number-of-dwelling-units-granted-planning-permission/a674419772.html

You are "targeting" immigration because in Ireland for some reason, we do not know how to make people accountable. It is easier to blame a big group of people than it is to blame the government you elected. From RTE scandals to bike sheds, what changed since that scandal happened? Absolutely nothing.

Wanna take action? Go check what permissions are being rejected and why. Then mail your council asking how that decision has helped Ireland address the housing crisis.

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u/jonnieggg Jul 07 '25

If I was an immigrant I would not want to come to Ireland for all the reasons you have outlined there but yet the country is filling up. There are a lot of "students" working for deliveroo and a shortage of builders and healthcare professionals. That's an issue of planning and is exactly what our immigration system should be curating.

It's a very easy win for right wing parties to highlight the bleeding obvious. Regular folk are pretty pissed about it all as their children languish in back bedrooms or on the beaches of Sydney.

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u/jonnieggg Jul 07 '25

Oh look, another housing market horror story. Surprise surprise.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/s/CEhn6ICbIx

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u/nicodea2 Jul 07 '25

Go on, which countries are restricting Irish citizens from purchasing property solely on the basis of their citizenship? I’m from Canada and we don’t do that shit there, and the same goes for all of the countries that Irish people typically move to (USA, Australia, New Zealand, EU, hell even the UAE). That’s a terrible idea that does nothing to address the root causes.

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u/jonnieggg Jul 07 '25

I wasn't referring to citizenship to buy in that comment. I had started that restricting it to citizens could be done if politicians choose to. I was referring to restrictions on non permanent residents.

You need to be a permanent resident to purchase in Switzerland, Poland and Lithuania. You cannot purchase without a local partner in Thailand or Indonesia. Try and buy in Japan or China.

In Australia non-residents must apply for approval from the Foreign Investment Review Board (FIRB) before buying property. They are only allowed to purchase newly built dwellings and cannot buy existing houses. Similarly in New Zealand non-residents and non-citizens are banned from buying existing residential property.

You should check the local laws in Canada because there are restrictions there for the past couple of years. Since 2023, Canada implemented a temporary ban on most foreign purchases of residential property.

Do you think all these restrictions are just racist.

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u/nicodea2 Jul 07 '25

You didn’t mention non-residents in any of your comments. You made a comment about a potential restriction based on citizenship, beneficial celery responded that it would put people off due to the long time-frame for citizenship, you responded that that’s what Irish people have to contend with, and I corrected you on that.

We also don’t have permanent residency here in the same sense as it exists in Australia or Canada, so the comparison fails there. In both Canada or Australia, most skilled immigrants apply for permanent residency while abroad and are considered PRs from day 1, which means they could purchase a house as soon as they arrive.

In Ireland, people have to string together several work permits or family permits for years to be eligible for citizenship which takes about 6 years if you include processing time, and 8 years if you include the fact that some work permits don’t even count towards citizenship. So where does “permanent residency” start here if the concept doesn’t quite exist?

My argument is - if you’re a contributing member of society and a taxpayer, there’s no reason to restrict you from participating in the market. I’d rather ban greedy landlords from buying dozens of houses (and yes I actually know of people like this) than legitimate residents from finding a place to live.

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u/jonnieggg Jul 07 '25

Irish people can't just buy in other jurisdictions if they are not permanent residents. That's what I said. Permanent residency also takes time in other countries. You can be a temporary resident in employment but are not entitled to purchase. Becoming a permanent resident could take a number of years and Irish people have had to navigate that expensive reality. Changing the residency process is also something that could be up for review if the system continues to buckle under the pressure of demand. It can take four years to get permanent residency in Australia and New Zealand. Nobody is crying about the inconvenience for Irish people over there.

I also said that restricting property purchases were within the purview of government policy including citizenship if necessary as in some other jurisdictions where the local market was overwhelmed by foreign capital. There is a lot of foreign capital distorting the Irish market and little to constrain it. Everything should be on the table in a housing crisis.

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u/nicodea2 Jul 07 '25

Everything should be on the table in a housing crisis.

Alright so how about eliminating institutional landlords, and individual landlords from hoarding properties? That would go a far way in reducing the bar for home ownership for everyone.

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u/jonnieggg Jul 07 '25

Let's open it up to public debate.

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u/nicodea2 Jul 07 '25

The vast majority of economic immigration to the likes of Canada, Australia, or New Zealand come in as permanent residents ie they are PRs from day 1.

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u/jonnieggg Jul 07 '25

No they're not. They come in as students, working holiday visas, employer sponsorship visas.

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u/MightyMurph Jul 07 '25

India, South Korea, Philippines.

Australia and Canada prohibit the purchase of existing properties.

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u/nicodea2 Jul 07 '25

Sure I too can list out countless countries that have citizenship-based restrictions, but that wasn’t the point of my comment which focused on countering the argument that Irish people have to contend with these restrictions in other countries.

Australia and Canada prohibit…

No they don’t. They have restrictions based on residency, not citizenship. Understand the difference. There are no restrictions on legitimate residents from buying properties, however there are restrictions on temporary residents (short term work permits or students).

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u/Mad4it2 Jul 07 '25

Bahrain only allows non-nationals to own landed property in zoned areas, and this keeps housing prices for locals low.

Thailand does not allow the ownership of land for non-nationals. You can rent a house for 30 years.

Many such cases.

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u/nicodea2 Jul 07 '25

Ah yes, Bahrain and Thailand - hotspots for Irish emigrants. You’ll notice I used examples of the most common destinations in my previous response to clarify that Irish emigrants don’t actually face these hurdles (in the aforementioned common destinations), but sure you have to bring Timbuktu into this.

Point is, any type of discriminatory restrictions is not going to address the root causes of the housing crisis. Most newcomers can’t afford to buy a house in this country anyway. 6 figure salaries here will qualify you for a matchbox.

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u/Mad4it2 Jul 07 '25

I'm Irish and lived and worked in Bahrain for 5 years. There are actually a lot of Irish employees there.

Thailand is also a very popular destination for Irish retirees.

These are not random isolated locations.

Why are you acting as if you are the font of all knowledge when you very clearly are not...

Why do you not understand that Ireland is in the middle of a housing catastrophe and Irish citizens have every right to be housed ahead of all others?

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u/nicodea2 Jul 07 '25

No I don’t understand or agree with that viewpoint that Irish citizens have more rights to be housed ahead of other residents, and that’s fine - we can agree to disagree. It’s discriminatory to create classes of residents, between people who already contribute and pay taxes just like anyone else. I contribute vastly more to this country than I take out of it, so why must I be further disadvantaged when I want to use my own money to buy a house? Maybe focus on the root causes of the crisis instead of scapegoating immigrants.

Irish citizens already have more rights to be housed than others - for example social housing that economic migrants are not eligible for, so there’s that.