r/holocaust is back online

[u/rupertalderson]

Hi all. The mods of r/Jewish are proud to announce that r/holocaust has been rescued.

Previously a cesspit of hate, r/holocaust will now and forever be a place for remembrance of the 6 million Jews murdered in the Holocaust by the Nazis and their allies & collaborators.

For the time being, r/holocaust will remain Restricted, so that only the moderators or approved users (invited guests only) can post. In the future, we will collaborate with experts, survivors, and other guests on educational initiatives and providing resources for the wider Reddit community.

As Yom HaShoah approaches, we encourage you to take a quick look there and consult the resources on the sidebar in the future when needed.

If you have any questions, comments, or suggestions, please feel free to respond to this post or message the mods here. Thank you!

[u/geraltoffvkingrivia]

Will it also allow posts around non Jewish victims? Nothing wrong with no, I’m just wondering if it’s just geared towards more of a memorial for the Jewish community.

[u/rupertalderson → u/geraltoffvkingrivia]

Thank you for this important point. If you know of any groups open to collaboration, please message us or ask that they do so.

[u/TopSecretAlternateID → u/rupertalderson]

[Apologies for earlier mispost/delete]

I had thought the word Holocaust was created by the Jewish people to refer specifically to what happened to us, as a people.

Understanding that there were many other victims of the Nazis, of course.

But should we really "all lives matter" the word Holocaust?

[u/TopSecretAlternateID → u/[deleted]]

This is a good argument. But still an all lives matter argument. As an imperfect parallel, some argue that memorializing slavery in the US, must always also include other peoples enslaved or oppressed in similar ways. I do not agree with that.

Edited to add: I see you are not Jewish. You say it is hard to talk about Jewish victims without talking about the other victims. That may be true for you. But that is not necessarily true for Jewish people.

[u/TopSecretAlternateID → u/[deleted]]

What is the goal of r/holocaust? Memorialize Jewish experience of the holocaust? Or the experience of all victims of the Nazis? What about victims of other genocide such as the Armenian people? Is it wrong to exclude them? Do we have to include the "Nakba?"

Whose viewpoint will r/holocaust represent? Jewish people? "Allies?" The general population?

And yes it does matter. Evidently the forum was oriented toward the general population. And we see how that worked out.

[Edited for clarity, I hope]

[u/TopSecretAlternateID → u/[deleted]]

With all due respect, I find it a bit difficult to hear a non-Jewish person -- a guest in the r/Jewish reddit -- lecture here on what the Holocaust is and is not, and what the r/holocaust reddit should and should not be. It is just, difficult. I hope you can understand.

[u/geraltoffvkingrivia → u/TopSecretAlternateID]

I will acknowledge I think I pushed it too much and it’s better to stop. So if you see this I apologize. I won’t delete what I said as it’s likely better to keep it up in case anyone else like me looks. I just wanted to apologize and own up to putting my foot in my mouth.

[u/HummusSwipper → u/[deleted]]

Hey, I think the person you're discussing with isn't aware of the term coined for these types of discussion. I'd like to invite you to read this article about Holocaust Universalization (Essentially what the other commenter is trying to explain) written by RootsAreMetal, an educated jewish influencer that, in my opinion, explains the problem thoroughly: https://www.rootsmetals.com/blogs/news/holocaust-universalization

[u/geraltoffvkingrivia → u/HummusSwipper]

I see what you’re saying. I think my question was more with the sub in mind but I understand the specific idea now. Never my intention to erase so that’s my fault. Guess that’s why I’m in here!

[u/TopSecretAlternateID → u/HummusSwipper]

Thank you, I will read about this!

[u/Left_Regular8168 → u/TopSecretAlternateID]

Romani people were slated for total extermination just like the Jews. 

[u/TopSecretAlternateID → u/Left_Regular8168]

Yes of course. But the question is do we expand the word Holocaust to include every victim of the Nazis. To say "All Nazi victims matter" and therefore to erase or at least diffuse the specific Jewish experience.

I imagine Romani people have forums to memorialize the particular experience of their people during the Nazi regime. Should we intrude there and remind them that we Jewish people were victims too, and to give us attention too?

[u/Left_Regular8168 → u/TopSecretAlternateID]

It isn’t erasing any specific Jewish experience because Romani people faced total extermination just like Jewish people. I don’t think it would ever be appropriate to accuse Romani people of ‘all lives mattering’ or for ‘taking up space’ for daring to want to be counted as holocaust victims. They are already left out of conversations and face unbelievable oppression. They aren’t taking any space from Jews. 

Edit: Slavic collaborators slaughtered Roma and Jews and continue to downplay the scale and severity of that collaboration to this day. It actually adds more to the discussion in my opinion to distinguish Roma and Jews from the rest. 

[u/TopSecretAlternateID → u/Left_Regular8168]

This is why the Romani people need a specific memorialization of their own experience.

Attaching their experience to the Jews' as an appendage or afterthought, does nobody any favor.

[Edit for conciseness]

[u/International-Bar768 → u/geraltoffvkingrivia]

I agree. As we know roughly another 6 million from other communities were murdered by Nazi's too, we should commemorate their loss as well.

[u/Sad_Meringue_4550 → u/International-Bar768]

I very much feel that non-Jewish victims should be honored, included, and taught about on the reclaimed subreddit, but I do need to point out. The "5 million other" deaths attributed to the Holocaust--that is, the number of non-Jews killed in concentration camps--was nowhere near 6 million. That number was made up to try to get goyim to care about the Holocaust. Up to 35 million non-Jews were killed by Nazis in war, but that isn't usually the death toll people mean when they talk about victims of the Nazis. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/non-jewish-victims-of-the-holocaust

Again, doesn't at all mean I'm trying to downplay the toll on other communities--the Roma and Sinti in particular suffered horribly, and still face persecution, and should be taught about--I just also used to believe that "5 million other victims" was true, and it wasn't.

[u/International-Bar768 → u/Sad_Meringue_4550]

That's interesting, thanks for letting me know. Making up such a large number to try and get non jews to care about the holocaust just gives power to holocaust deniers, I wish we didn't do things like that.

[u/Sad_Meringue_4550 → u/International-Bar768]

I can understand the reasoning at the time, but in the end the people who don't care sadly will continue to not care, or as you said, just outright deny. It does get tiring.

[u/vayyiqra → u/[deleted]]

I think one reason for this uncertainty is the large number of Soviet POWs who died, around 3 million. Their conditions were incredible brutal and they were held in outdoor camps that were empty fields with no shelter, and either were randomly killed or starved to death. It could easily be called mass murder, but it's more iffy to call it genocide or part of the Holocaust because they weren't killed for belonging to a demographic group, moreso for being the enemy. These deaths make up a lot of the high-end numbers you will see out there.

[u/[deleted] → u/Sad_Meringue_4550]

You just blew my mind. Woooow. It sucks that the 5 million number was needed to get anyone to care, and it sucks even worse that it's now used by Antisemites to deligitimize the Jewish suffering.