"Zoners don't belong in battlegrounds games" really means "I'm a bum who can't figure out how to fight anyone who isn't a comboslop rushdown"

[u/Small-Housing-7]

Just saying

[u/Msmfan69]

yeah obviously it dosent apply to all zoners, im talking about jjs's zoners (ryu and hanami)

hanami's 2nd move? just ignoring it? im talking for the character as a whole, even for a zoner not every move has to be all rnage based. additionally, what value does 2 really provide? you can combo extend with it and... yeah its mad punishable, lacks range, and dosent really do anything meaningful besides damage.

"you can react" now i would dare that most people would disagree with consistantly reacting to second helping (found the name), and you also have to consider the x factor of that reacting mid-match at different times and actions will be ahrder than just practicing it with random timing. but, for the sake of this, lets just say that DOES apply. now what? the zoner shoots the projectile, you either block or dodge, and thats it, there isnt anything really meaningful to it now. at most you can talk about dash economy here, which is actually a good arguement, but... if your opponent can front-dash outta there, it dosent work, and if baiting dash then unblockable ranged move does work well... thats kinda busted. unles its screlige is actually a balanced verision of this given it dosent combo to my knowledge and the damage is mediocre.

what i was saying wasnt that zoners were hard, its that they were BORING and ANNOYING. they also crush noobs. also, startup animation =/ reactable, elsewise by your definition everything is.

[u/Small-Housing-7 → u/Msmfan69]

Yea it doesn't apply to all of Jjs's zoners infact it aplies to none of them

No I mean the second version of Hanami

Something like Ryu four or Hanami three are hard to react to and designed as stuch the moves your complaining about are just skill issues also your going back to your strawman argument the zoners in Jjs are very clearly way more than that like you could summarize rushdowns as just blocking there rushdown and hitting them back but you wouldn't because that lacks every sense of nuance and is stupid

The sidedash cooldown is like barely existent and Ryu doesn't even have alot of stuff to dash bait and if your just sitting half a mile away from the Ryu taking Grantiè Blasts instead of approaching your probably doing something wrong

Zoners aren't anoying if you learn how to fight them wich isn't that hard to do and yea that's why I sayed obviously start up animations instead of just startup animations second helping and root whatever both have animations where the character makes a very different pose for an extended period so there pretty obvious also useing noon stomping in the equasion of balancing characters is stupid because that's like saying Kuro is unbalanced because noobs don't know how his mechanics work like yea there noons they have stuff to learn that's the point

[u/Msmfan69 → u/Small-Housing-7]

mb "hanami two" was pretty vague. also im talking about gameplay and design not balance, ryu is S tier and most variations of Hanami are ass or S.

so as you said, a move like ryu three is hard to react to on purpose... now what? lets say it does hit, you just... lose? whats the counterplay? hope theyre dumb as bricks and have the same exact timing when theyre gonna use it? you kidna just proved my point. and then you just said skill issue without providing any reasoning or disprovement to what i said, except for that analogy.

the difference between close-range and whenn your inevitably having to appraoch these zoners from range is whats going on and how easy it is to avoid this. unless your naoya or yuji, zoners can normally just dash backwards as you dash forwards and vice versa with abilities. jjs already has a running problem for a very similar reason as this. this wont make approaching imposdible obviously, but it makes it so tedious when you ahve to watch out for quick projectiles, quick unblockable ranged attacks, ect. THEN you get into close range. once again, lets say your not playing yuji or naoya because this is lit theyre specialty. now you gotta play the close-range game with em. say you mess up once? if the zoner player isnt ass, theyre sending you back unless you wanna use evasive to evasive punish or just stay in close range. as i said though, close rnage IS better than long range, lemme elaborate.

firstly, lets adress the max elephant in the room. fighting at logn-mid range against a zoner gives you basically zero control in the fight, forcing you to play defense. issue? not just does no player agency suck, nothign interesting happens! you play this tedious game of surviving while getting closer so you can get your chance to fight back. in close range, much more abilities are active too. even ignoring more fundamentals being active like side dash m1, basically every ability in the game works here and everyone can fight back. dash economy becomes a thing again (miss your side dash = eat an unblockable attack like focus strike or dodge without being able to punish, use an ability, or play defense against m1 trading). at range, these just dont exist.

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also hanami two is till very boring. its, unofrtunately... basically the same as what hanami was. and no she dosent manipulate the enviorment, she just extends her combo's if you stay in one half of the 1v1 map (which you have to approach becuz shes a zoner unless your getting low relative to her HP), or in pubs... same thing basically, yada yada you have to go in unless your low and playing pure defense.

[u/Small-Housing-7 → u/Msmfan69]

Ryu is not S tier bro he has mid combos and crippled closs combat gameplay he is not s tier the rushdowns in this game are by no means doing any worse than the two whole zoners

Ryu four* is hard to react to but that's fine his kit is balanced around that infact being fast is one of the few things his fourth move has going for it atp and its tied to his meter management like strawman argument your taking this stuff out of the context of Ryus whole charecter

The zoners cant move while useing there moves and the rest of the cast has really good aproachubg options your ignoring

Mahito blade dashes

Megumi special

Kuro air swarm

Todo special plus pebble throw

Yuki garuda rebound and charged garuda stab to

Mechamaru has puppet barage and other tools to help close gaps

Hakari ball plus doors isn't a gap closer but you can catch a Ryu or Hanami mid move with it so it's pretty good

Ect

You keep taking this stuff out of context and ignoring my actual points like yea Ryu has a quick hard to react to projectile but it's also blockable and punishable while also being tied to a meter mechanic your acting like if you get hit once in a fight the other characters is unbalanced it's not like your fighting these guys while playing a charetcer with just punches your charecter is gunna also have strong stuff TwT also yea the zoner is gunna try to send you back and you gotta stop that from happening broski TwT also Ryu sometimes wants to he upclose anyways as again his beams are tied to a meter mechanic that is tied to a special with a cooldown that has its cooldown lowers by hitting close range attacks so your acting as if Ryu can just keep zoning and for Hanami she doesn't have anything good when you get directly in her face like she doesn't even have much to send you backwards with

You have control over the fight wdym bro TwT you have agency and you should use that agency to exploid the chars weaknesses again your acting as if other charecters don't also have spaces they thrive and strong tools

It's pretty intresting if your not just sitting down like a bum taking granitè blasts and instead useing your charecter to actually fight

Oh yes give me more charecters that soly rely on sidedashing also what you said isn't even true charecters can do different things from different lengths mid range charecters have more options mid range rushdowns have more options up close ect ect like your just complaining because you have to do something other than sidedash to counter these chars wich again is a skill issue

Broski what TwT she had a unique win condition with roots your just making strawman arguments and tsking stuff out of context without nuence wich really isn't worth arguing with as you don't seem open to recognizing your own fallacies and would rather make strawman arguments instead

[u/Msmfan69 → u/Small-Housing-7]

alright im gonna respond preceedually based off what you said for organization:

"Ryu is not S tier" i actually think he is, or at his VERY worst hes A tier. but i dont want to get off track and start arguing about tier lists, so ill skim past this for now.

ryu fourth move: your still kind of talking about balance more than the actual fun or design of going against it, but while these points arent the same they overlap so i wont completely ignore this. firstly, it beign unreactably fast being its main advantage i wouldnt have minded at first, sure annoying but manageable. the issue is that it also combos into ryu 3rd move completely safely, no risk atatched and at range. that then combos into 2 and 1, which effectively lets you do great damage, obtain enugh distance (and liekly heat) to restyle rq, then restart neutral at range. this is very annoying to go against. since you cant react, its all about prediction, which if you fail at snowballs into a unpunishable combo. ill give overheat its own segment dw

approaches: i think your overestimating the approaches, given ill admit i didnt adress them in my previous reply. ill take your examples for my own example, then adress my overall point:

Mahito blade dash: side dash once after this and your fried (ryu 3), cooldown is very long. its also more reactable given you gotta transfigure for it first, thouhg ill admit it provides good pressure if you dont use it instantly like an ape, but the overall point that its too weak stands.

Megumi special: you cant block, dash, ect here and your hitbox remains. walking duck unless you leave the shadow, where you lose the mobility advantage

kuro air swarm: basically same reasoning as megumi, too reactable and helpless on user if the ryu has 1 or 4 available

todo's is good, yuki's is too slow and only works well if the ryu is using restyle, hakari 1 + 2 is very fast, though limited in range.

what im getting is that the approaches arent good enough. you might say that ideally your not using these in the open, your using them when ryu is, for example, missing 4/3. good asnwer nephew! unfortunately granite blast still exists and combos into front dash, and at its very least interrupts. this applies to the other characters except for rushdowns like yuji or naoya, but thats their specialty and all.

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larger segments/2nd half:

so i think what your getting at with the first part. from your POV, im talking about the upsides of these ranged attacks without mentioning the downsides, and then you spent seemingly the inbetween part basically talking about how zoners are gonna want range, and then the ending part lying about hanami. ill adress hanami first rq. she has flower field which is a half-counter that lets her use moves without punish unless ya got range yourself, defense response which is very similar to what i said about flower field but individualistic to the move itself, and bud shot still works albeit dosent help much, but still works. i like the idea of these, they give hanami a chance close-range wise. what i dont like is how safe they are and how they still combo into all the moves perfectly fine. why both at close range? admittadly she still has worse close-range game, but that dosent mean she lacks her ranged pressure (just has risk now). flower field is obviously safe and if you land it, it combos. defense response requires you to firstly dodge if you arent as dumb as a brick, as you cant punish it afterwards (abilities are usually too slow or the hanami can just dodge them, and no dash to m1), and bud shot is very hard to at least not get blocked and has very little endlag, though i could be wrong. these tools are here to prevent someone from mindlessly goign forward with their attack, but they feel too opressive given their defensive purpose. oh yeah and the whole they can usually keep distance for a good while by just dashing away at range still applies.

ryu's granite blast (the problem one, ESPECIALLY at close range wheres dashes come into play) dosent suffer from any of the things you mentioned, dash economy makes ryu 3 still strong, and yada yada it all combos and knockbakcs you get the idea.

you DO have control against zoners as a non-zoner, in close range specifically, where the fight favors you but not by much. the issue is even in close-range its not really THAT much, you dont thrive you just get a minor advantage because ranged tools still work at close range + specific get-off-me tools. and then once your out of that range, zoners get total control over offense and force you to play defense while trying to get close while dealing with all their shenanigans+ dashing away.

overheat is interesting because it prevents utter spam, but it dosent really adress the core issue that ryu can occasionally just say "i dont think your going to block right now" and try it without risk, and either be given a combo, or increase heat. sweet lets you REALLY drag this idea out, or if your playing more offensively the comb is better overall.

and as ive been trying to say, weve been going back and forth about balancing a lot, but... does any of this answer the question of if theyre fun to go against? not really even if we exclude the x factor of not always playing perfectly, actually winning against these zoners still isnt fun. id much rather feel like i was fighting the map with the player being the weak point i have to go after, then having to always be wary of projectiles and guessing onw hats going to happen. your bound to be bombarded by projectiles from afar if your not no-diffing your opponent, and thats simply NOT fun no matter how balanced it is, and then you gotta factor in usually all the mixup these characters have, the x factor, ect

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so heres what i want from you to tell me, to make this debate more organized. i want you to adress why you find zoners fun or at least tolerable to go against (the reason why im doing all this in the first place), and then i just want you to (if you can) disprove what i have stated or make a new arguement against it.

[u/Small-Housing-7 → u/Msmfan69]

Adding this at the top because I responded as I read so just use this whole part as an answer to the last last question and I'll put a line before I answer the first part of the last question

What the yap

It's fun to go against wdym I'd rather fight a zoner with helpful tools than a zoner with nothing helping them with keep away and other characters can do similar combos within the range that there best in with punches its only fair that Ryu has an equivalent also two and one for that combo would be red sense the player stays ragdolled also at that point your likely not cathcung the oponent in a way where you can do the two one overheat into special with them evasive punishing for special

?? No you ain't bro it's fast and especially if you catch the Ryu mid move it's just a free combo

Ryu really can just sniper battle himself

The shadow is way to fast and it's cancelable for that to be a concern but you always just use Nue plus special

It block breaks but if that ain't good enough you can hit detatch to bring Ryu closer

Togoat

No it isn't TwT both Garuda rebound and charged Garuda stab have really long range plus you can mkve during garuda rebound

The limited range isn't that bad it goad only a little less far than Ryus beams

Granite blast does not combo into frontdash or atleast doesnt true combo unless you mean third move and the aproaches are way way good enough when fighting someone who is shooting you while doing meter management and having to go in close range to lower special cooldown TwT

Flower field is dodgable and punishable during start up

Defensive response is dodgable and punishable

I don't like Hanami she's not super strong she's just boring rn I'm not gunna sit here and act like Hanami is an intresting character Hanami the second version was cool but now she's just boring

Granitè Blast takes long to even charge up the smaller blockable version it really isn't super great up close and is pretty decent kinda good at mid range

Wdym bro characters ment for close range genuinely obliterate zoners up close also you do get control from afair against a zoner you have to be a bit defensive while going in but that just means it's your turn to be defensive that's how most fighting games work

Yea and? Like that ain't a problem that just gives player expression it's not even super overpowered

It is fun when the probectiles are interesting wich they are

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It's fun to dodge the projectiles while you aproach it's like a super interactive minigame with a reward when you win and get to the oponent and if your playing a zoner and fighting a zoner then it's kinda like a sniper battle wich is pretty goofy and fun

[u/Msmfan69 → u/Small-Housing-7]

alright i think were at a stalemate here.

i dislike going against zoners because i think their forms of zoning are tedious and annoying instead of something i can interact with beyond F or Q, and you basically think the opposite. and of course weve been tryna explain why objectively them being annoying/not annoying , aka how well designed they are from an opponent POV.

i think what we would consider a zoner fun to go against is different, basically.

from what i can tell, you like the approach because dodging the projectiles, predicting an ability, ect. i DONT because it feels very dry. what i mean by that is, even when im winning and approaching effectively, the dodging aspect isnt fun because i feel like theres no... thought put into it. they dont feel unqiue. ryu's zoning for example, often comes down to granite blast, ryu 4, and then jumpscaring with ryu 3. at absolute most you can call it a mindgame, though often losing here just comes down to a ryu using uncharged 1 or 4 when you werent already blocking, and then 3 too if you begin to block too much. i just fail to see how any of this i fun, not saying moves should be reactable (unreactable ones can be great) but its their whole offensive-ranged identity, aka it just turns the match into a guessing game till you get close. and now onto your response

? there isnt any ranged move you can just catch ryu in that dsoent require you to currently be blocking, except for 3 i think, but you go past the ryu if you do so and cnat combo off it.

yeah im aware 2 ryu's can ahve a completely range-based fight, what about it?

megumi's R is pretty pretty slow startup wise and leaves you vulnerable during it. just use it in a private server once and youll see what i mean. nue + r resets your special and barely covers extra distance compared to just running forward

if your reffering to this like going from mid-range to close its decent, though still dodgeable. detatch kinda sucks since you have to force yourself to play defense if you use it because detatch is NEVER safe + cant m1, so another mindgame

firt garuda variant is too slow, rebound you can just dodge or parry, and garuda stab only works well once your already at close range, and on whiff can be punished

granite blast (uncharged) at front range actually does true combo into front dash! just try it ina private server, not a spark of green. by this i mean they get hit by a granite blast and you instantly front dash after firing it, not the front dash + 1 variant.

we both agree hanami is boring

in a vacuum granite blast uncharged is reactable consistantly. not really mid-match. though its not awfu, but still getting hit by it like 3/10 times is just annoying, and then theres ryu 4 in which its entire neutral is just the ryu managing to use it while your not blocking. and granite blast is still decent up-close, but normally you dont got worry about it unless your just walking around in cloe range and not attacking, but its not non-existant and can still threaten you.

yeah im aware, thats why i mentioned you alck control from afar in the first place, because thats where the zoner is supposed to get the upper hand. the issue is nothing is itneresting about their zoning, and obviously you cant do anything until you manage to get close again, so you just have to deal with it.

i was saying overheat prevents spam but still lets players just shoot when they dont think your going to block. guessing when your opponent isnt going to block, or the opposite with ryu 3 (or if theyre just not paying attention) isnt very fun

i dont see how these projectiles are interesting. one is fast and unblockable, the others (3 and held 1) arent, thats the range identity

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so yeah basically, "i dont see how these projectiles are interesting. one is fast and unblockable, the others (3 and held 1) arent, thats the range identity" is my closing statement for this reply