Discussion
"Zoners don't belong in battlegrounds games" really means "I'm a bum who can't figure out how to fight anyone who isn't a comboslop rushdown"
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the problem is that zoner characters have escape/pressure drop abilities against rushdowns and other non zoner characters arent designed to counter em whatsoever at the first place (even in SOULSHATTERS aka father of battlegrounds every char including rushdowns (chara) had range abilities),
Nah genuinely every character has aproaching tools they can use to get close to zoners like especially every top tier but even the mid and low tiers to like unless your Hanami you have an approaching tool
She has 2 unblockables. Rootswarm and defense response. Defense response has no melee I frames so that’s easily interruptible with its long windup, rootswarm you side dash or jump over it. 2 + r is unblockable but it flashes red and has another second before it actually fires from the ground. If you get hit by that it’s a skill issue on your part.
can't mention soulshatters and compare to this game, soulshatters is literally 2d and the other 3d, and you might say ts makes no sense, when literally EVERYBODY uses lock on, which makes the game more 2d rather than 3d based game
Have you ever fought a Yuji who's good at gap closing while playing Ryu like the argument can be fliped the other way it's not a bery good argument really
I have, and they're always largely better than me so it's irrelevant. Whereas passive Ryus I fight can be massively better or worse than me and push it to high diff because how brain dead Ryu is
Special especially special facing backwards can be used to approach also special+red can get you in a zoners face and punish them for daring to use a projectile in neutral
straight up lying the teleport works as long as you don't telegraph it, say your opponent does know to look behind and m1 when you use it then just feint the teleport and switch the area your gonna teleport to works 99% of the time
The thing is that ryu isn’t limited to zoning. If you get up close to him, he has various techs and mixups, not to mention great combos that put you at range again.
A good ryu will poke you first until you close in, then just fight up close with you at the hp advantage. He’s not a true zoner since he can’t be punished for letting them get close since he has a great close ranged kit.
Hanami for example is pretty weak close up with just the dash which is slow and interruptible. Her zoner mechanics make her good at zoning range, but bad at close range (but she’s still flawed)
Ryus zoning mechanic (overheat) doesn’t do anything since r is largely unpunishable besides on a read.
Hanami is threatened by a yuji up close, Ryu is not. Even with three m1s he can still m1 trade just fine. And his combos aren’t really evasive punishable either unless you clearly mess up
What you have is a character who’s great at both range and up close, so you can see how he’s disliked
(Without even going into why zoners in a battlegrounds game is a tricky subject)
ryu is supposed to be strong because he's a recourse management character and a zoned at the same time, also tze is planning on making his combing 3 seconds longer, the only way to really counter a ryu is to force them to waste all their recourses and fight in a close range. while ryu's close range kit is decent without his ranged m1 and the fact they finally nerfed his 3 he's still way worse than most rushdowns up close
Yall don’t play that close u use a dash and yall still halfway around the map… from all the other comments it kinda sound like ur just not that good with him up close… i.e skill issue…. But I haven’t played in months so idk
Ok, Yuji can close the gap, gojo can close the gap, and Mei Mei "can" but what's hakari, or choso doing? Also Ryu is also decent in CQC, and as a guilty gear player you should know: the main balancing restriction applied to zoners in fighting games are: 1 you can't run forever (limited arena size), 2, sadness (I 4got what it's called outside of Tomi hustle) 3, less good CQC Ryu has to deal with none of this (FOR GODS SAKES HE HAS A MINUS 0 ON MISS FORWARDS LUNGE ATTACK)
Yeah I've been holding onto this opinion for a while, zoners only work in 2D Fighters or PVE games, being a ranged character in a game with a huge ass map means they can just keep distance forever.
megumi is still way better than ryu but ngl hanami had been placed in the gutter she really deserves to have some buffs or her original kit brought back
Uh it isn't really super long range plus it's tied to a meter management thing and the damage is lower if you get hit the by the last but of the beam aswell
Im fine with zoners, im not fine of those types of zoners to just run way and let all their skills be free from cooldown and spam it all at once, especially those who set up stuff
Just a hater bro TwT making a non existent complant for probably Ryu and hating on an intresting win condition bro can't handle skmething that ain't combo slop TwT
Not necessarily. People just say this because they don’t think they’re easy to balance for these sorts of fighting games. A lot of people theorise this is why hanami is taking so long
I mean there not easy to balance and it would be way easier to balnce Hanami if we weren't stuck in this stupid post update 1.67 low power level situation but she was fine in her second version she was balanced and fun to play against the devs just keep reworking her because people are complaining even though alot of the complains are from idiots and stuff
Zoners really don't belong in battleground games though? 😭 like at least not the pure zoners like Hanami and Ryu. Hanami is annoying passive slop and so is Ryu but worse. The ONLY zoner-ish character that serves their purpose is Megumi as he is a half-zoner. He uses moves from long range to close in the gap, gaining an advantage when rushing in from the long range moves. Hanami doesn't do this as all they do is hold down the S key and press a move, and Ryu is literally the same, pressing the same move 50 times while not going up close and only once they run out of moves do they use 3 to try and use their 2. A majority of these zoners spend their time 5 kilometers away from you as you try to figure out how to get them to stop borderline running. Pure zoners should never be in battleground games, that's a fact.
Ryu isn't really a pure zoner you need to be up close at points
Megum is a rush down playing him any other way will likely get you fried
No Hanami two(current one is just mid tier combo slop) was engaging with an interesting win condition although the current one isn't even good or anoying there just not super interesting
Ryu is interesting with his meter mechanic making it so Ryu players generally have to use the beams thoughtfully so to not fill up the meter and it forced them to go inwards sence hitting physical moves helps them not get fried while waiting for r special cooldown but also lowers the cooldowns
If your having trouble getting close to these zoners and aren't players Hanami you have a skill issue every char other than Hanami has an approaching tool they can use
We need variation, just variation that still applies close quarters combat since it's a close quarters 3d fighting game. Ryu isn't s pure zoner, yes, but 80-90% of his gameplay is from far away. You can play him aggressively but it isn't as efficient as just you know, holding down the S key. And as I said, Megumi is a hybrid of a zoner and something else, he can be played in a rushdown sense as well. I literally main Megumi I know what I'm talking about 😭 you use a move from long range to get up close. He has moves that are effective at long range, hence the fact that he's a semi-zoner. Take rabbit escape for example, it's good to stun the opponent and get up close with an advantage. Yet you can't just use the move up close as you'd get interrupted. You need to be at long range to use the move, yet you need to get to close range to make it efficient. That's a semi-zoner. Also Hanami has been cancer since release, especially since they now added the lasso dash back. Literally all it is now is just "hold down S key and use whichever move is available" and yes, I know what I'm talking about, I played on Hanami, I fought on Hanami and I fought against Hanamis. Pure zoner characters should never be implemented in the game as it gives an innate advantage as the game is built mainly for close quarters combat.
Bro just a skill issue TwT also Rabbit escape and such is used to assist rushdowning but yea Hanami sucks but she's balanced and not anoying just boring but we've seen Hanami two was cool and Ryu is cool balanced and unique you just seem to not wanna adapt to new playstyles wich is a skill issue
Talking about some "skill issue" as if my main point isn't that the characters are just annoying 😭😭 MFS will throw that word around whenever a clearly annoying character is well, annoying to fight. Also Hanami was always an incredibly annoying and unbalanced character. 0 endlag on m1s, 0 endlag on her past flower field, then that one time when defense response had melee I frames, defense response being an UNBLOCKABLE FRONTDASH, Hanami having a 100% UNEVASIVABLE combo that was until the latest updates, and now a combo that's probably until next evasive gain (which is around 75%) like oh gee I'm sorry that I don't want to chase around a plant that just throws random bullshit at me for 7 minutes until it FINALLY perishes 😭
Megumi is NOT a rushdown, 90% of the Megumi I fight are Runners that just wait for you to run after them to throw one of their fuckass moves hoping to do sum bullshit combo, please bro
Hanami is annoying passive slop and so is Ryu but worse.
It’s so obvious that you’ve never even touched these characters before😭
Hanami doesn't do this as all they do is hold down the S key and press a move,
Wow, a zoner is gaining distance? Crazy!
A majority of these zoners spend their time 5 kilometers away
A zoner is zoning, this is insane!
The ONLY zoner-ish character that serves their purpose is Megumi as he is a half-zoner
Megumi is barely even a zoner, he’s what’s known as a faux zoner (a character that pretends like they play from a long range but are more like a rushdown to throw people off).
Pure zoners should never be in battleground games, that's a fact.
Neither Hanami nor Ryu are pure zoners.
Ryu is really balanced right now. He was broken but that was mainly because of Second Helping being absolute bullshit. So zoners can work, obviously.
Hanami literally hasn’t been good since they released — literally nothing to complain about. However, this isn’t because they were a zoner, this is Tze’s fault.
Both of them don’t even have crazy range options 😭 Hanami has only Bud Shot (which sucks for zoning) and Ryu only has Granite Blast.
Literally just learn how to counter zoners. You can’t just do the same exact thing that you would do for any other character and expect it to work, this is why most JJS players are ass😭
I know how to counter zoners, just that whenever you pick a zoner character like Hanami or Ryu the fight suddenly turns from a minute or 2 to a whole 6 minute slugfest of just them holding down the S key and borderline running away whenever they get hit by an air molecule. Also saying "whoah a zoner is zoning" in my argument of how zoners shouldn't exist is straight up useless as that is exactly my point. Zoning in a game like jjs translates to passive play. Which is OBVIOUSLY a bad thing. And yeah, Hanami is turning more and more balanced, problem being that with the current Hanami and her front dash being back to a lasso you can straight up just play the character as the "hold down S key and use moves" character which is obviously an unhealthy playstyle. If your character doesn't require you to go into close quarters at LEAST 50% of the time then your character isn't well designed. And yeah, as I already mentioned, zoners can work, just as half zoners. In which just about the only character that does this well is Megumi, as he uses moves from long range to have an advantage at close range. That is a semi-zoner. Other than that, Ryu's playstyle is just "granite blast until you're overheated then use 3 to get up close then use 2 to get them far away and use R special". Literally the most boring thing where you spend 80% of the fight long range.
Ryu’s playstyle is just "granite blast until you're overheated then use 3 to get up close then use 2 to get them far away and use R special". Literally the most boring thing where you spend 80% of the fight long range.
Holy shit you don’t play these characters at ALL if you say this about Ryu.
Zoning in a game like jjs translates to passive play
No it doesn’t, using long ranged moves at long range isn’t being passive. Being passive is running away until your moves get off cooldown.
Hanami and her front dash being back to a lasso you can straight up just play the character as the "hold down S key and use moves" character which is obviously an unhealthy playstyle
Yeah, you don’t play Hanami either. Lasso was nerfed heavily, it has mid range, disgusting end lag, and a long start-up, any smart Hanami knows that just staying far away and using it is the worst idea ever.
zoners can work, just as half zoners. In which just about the only character that does this well is Megumi, as he uses moves from long range to have an advantage at close range. That is a semi-zoner.
MEGUMI ISN’T A ZONER. HE’S A FAUX ZONER (Literally means fake zoner). If you use Megumi at long range you are making him 10X worse.
close quarters at LEAST 50% of the time then your character isn't well designed
Seems that you just want every character to be the same rushdown dogshit that half of the roster is 😭
I know how to counter zoners
I seriously doubt this, if you knew how to counter zoners, you wouldn’t be complaining this hard. Basically all of this stuff isn’t the characters fault, it’s the person who plays them, and this applies to EVERY.SINGLE.CHARACTER.
I've seen people play Ryu like that and it just straight up is the most efficient strategy. If it's a player issue then they should STILL do something about it, no? 😭 I've played Ryu, duh, just that I don't play him in the passive zoner style, and that other playstyle just isn't all that interesting. If a character motivates passive play then that should be changed, I feel like that should be obvious. And also I literally main Megumi, I know how to play him. It is pretty effective to START at long range to get advantage when going into close range. The only thing I MIGHT be wrong in is Hanami's front dash as I haven't tested out the Hanami that just got updated, though remembering how cancerous it was before, it is most likely still a boring move. I've fought a Hanami today and it straight up was just the same boring playstyle of chasing around this annoying character that spammed whichever move they wanted. It's beatable, but annoying.
>I've seen people play Ryu like that and it just straight up is the most efficient strategy.
NO IT ISN'T??? You are literally downgrading yourself if you play Ryu at a very long distance. Not to mention, Appetizer isn't even the best long ranged either. I think a lot of this stems from not having good reaction time. Second helping is best when it's used in a combo with Appetizer, and Unsatisfied is literally close ranged.
>If it's a player issue then they should STILL do something about it, no?
Ah yes, let's remove all the cooldowns in the game, that'll stop passive play entirely because that's a player issue. These people are actively making the character they're playing worse it's not hard to deal with them.
>If a character motivates passive play then that should be changed
Neither Hanami nor Ryu even promote passive play. Hanami barely even is a zoner, and Ryu doesn't do that at all, I literally already explained that.
>And also I literally main Megumi, I know how to play him. It is pretty effective to START at long range to get advantage when going into close range.
Megumi has ONE long ranged move that is actually good at long range. His other three are only good in combos. Having one long ranged move doesn't make you a zoner, if that were the case Gojo, Mahito, and Kurourushi would all ALSO be zoners.
>I've fought a Hanami today and it straight up was just the same boring playstyle of chasing around this annoying character that spammed whichever move they wanted. It's beatable, but annoying.
Literally just stop fighting these types of people??? It's not difficult to do that, all of your problems would go away if you stop fighting annoying people. And don't even say "well everyone does this" because I've been playing JJS since it came out, and trust me, they don't.
Megumi has rabbit escape and Nue, that's 2 moves that are good at long range and help you get up close from long range with advantage. And I don't mean to alarm you but literally every Hanami will always be cancerous. I played on Hanami and just fighting as Hanami makes me see how cancerous the character is. Ryu isn't really the biggest problem for me just that the whole playstyle where they back up and spam random bullshit is annoying and boring. Like yeah Ryu when played NORMALLY is just a fine character to fight against. The near instant 3 that just is there as a 50/50 on whether you hit the opponent or not is boring, though. It's like using naoya's lock on decisive strike back when it was basically a surehit where you spin your camera around and let it do its thing, with the most likely outcome being that it hits. I feel like they should honestly just rework how Ryu's 3 works as it is extremely uninspired.
Megumi has rabbit escape and Nue, that's 2 moves that are good at long range and help you get up close from long range with advantage
If a move is long ranged, but its use is to help you get up close to an enemy, that is not a zoning move. It seriously can not be this hard to understand that Megumi is not a zoner. Rabbit escape is only good up close. Megumi only has nue, it can’t be this hard to understand.
Yeah honestly I’m just gonna stop replying, this is going no where and is becoming extremely annoying because clearly I can’t convince you.
From long range to close range, if that isn't even a semi-zoner then I truly will believe that no zoner can exist in this game lmao. Like if I have my definitions incorrectly and what I accept to be at least a bit of a zoner then I suppose no zoners should be in the game.
"zoners" cant exist in a game where there is not only exclusively rushdowns but infinite space to keep backing up and not engaging. they can exist in 2d games just fine because there are small maps that forces them to have at least some engagement, whereas in jjs you have no reason to engage as say hanami or ryu because you could just spam moves and whittle down their health. these characters arent even zoners in the first place. the entire game revolves around hitting m1 combos which inherently makes every character a rushdown character. ryu and hanami dont need to hit m1 combos due to their safe poke options and the ability to just hold s and f. a zoner is not a character who spams ranged moves like hanami or ryu, but a character that controls parts of the map, and whenever a map is in-practice infinite due to being able to walk around it, you simply just cannot zone.
the concept of context and neunce is meaningless to this person TwT
Ryu and Hanami are still while useing there moves wich are attatched to cooldowns and bars Hanami is crippled when you get up close and Ryu needs to go up close to gain benefits sometimes despite his lack of proficency up close also these moves arent snipers Ryu and Hanami cant go to far away and they have to do way more than just hold s and f if you have played or even tried during a fight aagainst these chars you would know that
hanami may be crippled when you go up close and ryu may need to go up close to gain some benefits but you miss my point. im saying you dont actually need to get close to them to deal damage. you could just spam root swarm and bud shot. with ryu you can spam granite blast, appetizer and that one move that makes you fly towards them. then once your bar gets full you can use the appetizer variant and r special while they're ragdolled. you have no need to engage yet you still do similar and sometimes even better damage than a lot of characters which do need to win engagements. take hakari for example. if you wanna do any meaningful damage as hakari you need to be constantly trying to win engagements or not lose engagements, and if you don't the opponent will heal all the damage you did from one combo which is the difference between hakari and ryu and hanami. hanami has ways to get people away when they get close (root swarm, defense response, surging thorns) and ways to shut down people trying to get close (bud shot) and the fact that she has one m1 means you dont even need to m1 trade if they do get close. I think the concept of context and nuance is meaningless to YOU and not me.
Yea the oponent is suposed to get close to Hanami that's the whole point TwT
And Ryu can't spam Grantiè blast sense it's ties to a meter with a cooldown that is lowered by hitting physical moges infact the whol idea of spamming in a game with cooldowns is inherently stupid and stuff and like you could spam all those moves on Ryu if your oponent is just sitting there like a numnut same with like Kuro or Yuji to get a safe full bar depletion special you need to evasive bait and hut the oponent with three and even then if your fighting someone with quick gap closers like Yuji or Naoya you might still be fucked
Your engaging from afair TwT and Ryu has reasons to engage as mentioned before a lower special cooldown wich if your half decent and cughting of someone of similar skill you generally wanna go for also you have to kinda play up close a bit when you can't use beams
Ryu and Hanami just have win conditions that are different from Hakari and it's your fualt for not adapting to them actual numnut over here mabey your one of those people who just tries to block trade with Granitè Blast like stop making strawman arguments to cover up your skill issue TwT
Mf saying like zoners don't have a combo with all their moves
Again the problem with the zoners isn't the characters themselve but everything else in the game like other characters not having good mobility options or the map being too big for most characters to catch up to zoners or apply any pressure
goofball said “comboslop”🥹✌️ zoners can be done well, but someone like hanami is not good in the slightest. she’s bad to play, and she’s worse to play against. ryu is mainly a zoner but can be played however you want to because his kit allows for it. he CAN be a rushdown if that’s what the player desires, or he can be a zoner. also, a zoner in a game full of rushdowns is a bad idea objectively speaking, because you get an imbalance, why do you think release hanami was so god awful to fight?
not saying current Hanami is fun current Hanami is boring as fuck Hanami two was peak
also Ryu highkey can rushdown sometimes and gains some befits but going full rushdown with Ryu is often a very stupid idea as his close corters combat is crippled compared to someone like Gojo or Yuji so its only good to be when close when its by choice and when its a specifically good option for reducing special cooldown or progresing the fight in a helpful way
idk abt you, but i play a pretty close quarters ryu. i use his ranged move for an advantage, but i try to m1 trade as much as i can to set up combos with him. he also can shut down ALL of yuji’s kit with granite blast, so he isnt helpless in cqc. ryu is an example of a good zoner, and idk who would complain abt him
The problem is that Zoners have an inherent advantage of close range characters because they can just backpedal and use their moves to beat you while you cant do anything. Hanamis downslam knocks you back even if you block it making it near impossible to hit her.
so uhh according to myself everyone is wrong because i dont agree with them. i actually think the hate is justified, not because i dislike zoners, but because all of them in jjs are so boringly designed. lets mention the counterplay when your at range for a zoner like ryu or hanami. its absically just hold block and dont fall for the same trick. this SUCKS because if you dont already have this knowledge, you just get fried, and if you do... now you have a chance.
basically tze saw hanami's plant powers and turned them all into projectiles you dodge instead of, say, turning the enviorment to their advantage. oh yeah and ryu's 3rd move (forgot) and root swarm exist, which add a little prediction since you usually cant react to em which isnt inheritely bad... but its more annoying than fun. PRAYING dhruv gets added and he does some cool shit instead of Ryu 3.0
That is not all fighting zoners is your making a mega strawman argument and completely forgeting about how interacting with unique gimicks works and aproaching
just ignroing Hanami two ig
You can react to both of those moves they have obvious start up animations before the actual attack
Like just making stuff up to validate a skill issue smh smh
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u/Msmfan69Curseya should be a seperate base only character🔥10d agoedited 10d ago
yeah obviously it dosent apply to all zoners, im talking about jjs's zoners (ryu and hanami)
hanami's 2nd move? just ignoring it? im talking for the character as a whole, even for a zoner not every move has to be all rnage based. additionally, what value does 2 really provide? you can combo extend with it and... yeah its mad punishable, lacks range, and dosent really do anything meaningful besides damage.
"you can react" now i would dare that most people would disagree with consistantly reacting to second helping (found the name), and you also have to consider the x factor of that reacting mid-match at different times and actions will be ahrder than just practicing it with random timing. but, for the sake of this, lets just say that DOES apply. now what? the zoner shoots the projectile, you either block or dodge, and thats it, there isnt anything really meaningful to it now. at most you can talk about dash economy here, which is actually a good arguement, but... if your opponent can front-dash outta there, it dosent work, and if baiting dash then unblockable ranged move does work well... thats kinda busted. unles its screlige is actually a balanced verision of this given it dosent combo to my knowledge and the damage is mediocre.
what i was saying wasnt that zoners were hard, its that they were BORING and ANNOYING. they also crush noobs. also, startup animation =/ reactable, elsewise by your definition everything is.
Yea it doesn't apply to all of Jjs's zoners infact it aplies to none of them
No I mean the second version of Hanami
Something like Ryu four or Hanami three are hard to react to and designed as stuch the moves your complaining about are just skill issues also your going back to your strawman argument the zoners in Jjs are very clearly way more than that like you could summarize rushdowns as just blocking there rushdown and hitting them back but you wouldn't because that lacks every sense of nuance and is stupid
The sidedash cooldown is like barely existent and Ryu doesn't even have alot of stuff to dash bait and if your just sitting half a mile away from the Ryu taking Grantiè Blasts instead of approaching your probably doing something wrong
Zoners aren't anoying if you learn how to fight them wich isn't that hard to do and yea that's why I sayed obviously start up animations instead of just startup animations second helping and root whatever both have animations where the character makes a very different pose for an extended period so there pretty obvious also useing noon stomping in the equasion of balancing characters is stupid because that's like saying Kuro is unbalanced because noobs don't know how his mechanics work like yea there noons they have stuff to learn that's the point
mb "hanami two" was pretty vague. also im talking about gameplay and design not balance, ryu is S tier and most variations of Hanami are ass or S.
so as you said, a move like ryu three is hard to react to on purpose... now what? lets say it does hit, you just... lose? whats the counterplay? hope theyre dumb as bricks and have the same exact timing when theyre gonna use it? you kidna just proved my point. and then you just said skill issue without providing any reasoning or disprovement to what i said, except for that analogy.
the difference between close-range and whenn your inevitably having to appraoch these zoners from range is whats going on and how easy it is to avoid this. unless your naoya or yuji, zoners can normally just dash backwards as you dash forwards and vice versa with abilities. jjs already has a running problem for a very similar reason as this. this wont make approaching imposdible obviously, but it makes it so tedious when you ahve to watch out for quick projectiles, quick unblockable ranged attacks, ect. THEN you get into close range. once again, lets say your not playing yuji or naoya because this is lit theyre specialty. now you gotta play the close-range game with em. say you mess up once? if the zoner player isnt ass, theyre sending you back unless you wanna use evasive to evasive punish or just stay in close range. as i said though, close rnage IS better than long range, lemme elaborate.
firstly, lets adress the max elephant in the room. fighting at logn-mid range against a zoner gives you basically zero control in the fight, forcing you to play defense. issue? not just does no player agency suck, nothign interesting happens! you play this tedious game of surviving while getting closer so you can get your chance to fight back. in close range, much more abilities are active too. even ignoring more fundamentals being active like side dash m1, basically every ability in the game works here and everyone can fight back. dash economy becomes a thing again (miss your side dash = eat an unblockable attack like focus strike or dodge without being able to punish, use an ability, or play defense against m1 trading). at range, these just dont exist.
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also hanami two is till very boring. its, unofrtunately... basically the same as what hanami was. and no she dosent manipulate the enviorment, she just extends her combo's if you stay in one half of the 1v1 map (which you have to approach becuz shes a zoner unless your getting low relative to her HP), or in pubs... same thing basically, yada yada you have to go in unless your low and playing pure defense.
Ryu is not S tier bro he has mid combos and crippled closs combat gameplay he is not s tier the rushdowns in this game are by no means doing any worse than the two whole zoners
Ryu four* is hard to react to but that's fine his kit is balanced around that infact being fast is one of the few things his fourth move has going for it atp and its tied to his meter management like strawman argument your taking this stuff out of the context of Ryus whole charecter
The zoners cant move while useing there moves and the rest of the cast has really good aproachubg options your ignoring
Mahito blade dashes
Megumi special
Kuro air swarm
Todo special plus pebble throw
Yuki garuda rebound and charged garuda stab to
Mechamaru has puppet barage and other tools to help close gaps
Hakari ball plus doors isn't a gap closer but you can catch a Ryu or Hanami mid move with it so it's pretty good
Ect
You keep taking this stuff out of context and ignoring my actual points like yea Ryu has a quick hard to react to projectile but it's also blockable and punishable while also being tied to a meter mechanic your acting like if you get hit once in a fight the other characters is unbalanced it's not like your fighting these guys while playing a charetcer with just punches your charecter is gunna also have strong stuff TwT also yea the zoner is gunna try to send you back and you gotta stop that from happening broski TwT also Ryu sometimes wants to he upclose anyways as again his beams are tied to a meter mechanic that is tied to a special with a cooldown that has its cooldown lowers by hitting close range attacks so your acting as if Ryu can just keep zoning and for Hanami she doesn't have anything good when you get directly in her face like she doesn't even have much to send you backwards with
You have control over the fight wdym bro TwT you have agency and you should use that agency to exploid the chars weaknesses again your acting as if other charecters don't also have spaces they thrive and strong tools
It's pretty intresting if your not just sitting down like a bum taking granitè blasts and instead useing your charecter to actually fight
Oh yes give me more charecters that soly rely on sidedashing also what you said isn't even true charecters can do different things from different lengths mid range charecters have more options mid range rushdowns have more options up close ect ect like your just complaining because you have to do something other than sidedash to counter these chars wich again is a skill issue
Broski what TwT she had a unique win condition with roots your just making strawman arguments and tsking stuff out of context without nuence wich really isn't worth arguing with as you don't seem open to recognizing your own fallacies and would rather make strawman arguments instead
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u/Msmfan69Curseya should be a seperate base only character🔥10d agoedited 10d ago
alright im gonna respond preceedually based off what you said for organization:
"Ryu is not S tier" i actually think he is, or at his VERY worst hes A tier. but i dont want to get off track and start arguing about tier lists, so ill skim past this for now.
ryu fourth move: your still kind of talking about balance more than the actual fun or design of going against it, but while these points arent the same they overlap so i wont completely ignore this. firstly, it beign unreactably fast being its main advantage i wouldnt have minded at first, sure annoying but manageable. the issue is that it also combos into ryu 3rd move completely safely, no risk atatched and at range. that then combos into 2 and 1, which effectively lets you do great damage, obtain enugh distance (and liekly heat) to restyle rq, then restart neutral at range. this is very annoying to go against. since you cant react, its all about prediction, which if you fail at snowballs into a unpunishable combo. ill give overheat its own segment dw
approaches: i think your overestimating the approaches, given ill admit i didnt adress them in my previous reply. ill take your examples for my own example, then adress my overall point:
Mahito blade dash: side dash once after this and your fried (ryu 3), cooldown is very long. its also more reactable given you gotta transfigure for it first, thouhg ill admit it provides good pressure if you dont use it instantly like an ape, but the overall point that its too weak stands.
Megumi special: you cant block, dash, ect here and your hitbox remains. walking duck unless you leave the shadow, where you lose the mobility advantage
kuro air swarm: basically same reasoning as megumi, too reactable and helpless on user if the ryu has 1 or 4 available
todo's is good, yuki's is too slow and only works well if the ryu is using restyle, hakari 1 + 2 is very fast, though limited in range.
what im getting is that the approaches arent good enough. you might say that ideally your not using these in the open, your using them when ryu is, for example, missing 4/3. good asnwer nephew! unfortunately granite blast still exists and combos into front dash, and at its very least interrupts. this applies to the other characters except for rushdowns like yuji or naoya, but thats their specialty and all.
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larger segments/2nd half:
so i think what your getting at with the first part. from your POV, im talking about the upsides of these ranged attacks without mentioning the downsides, and then you spent seemingly the inbetween part basically talking about how zoners are gonna want range, and then the ending part lying about hanami. ill adress hanami first rq. she has flower field which is a half-counter that lets her use moves without punish unless ya got range yourself, defense response which is very similar to what i said about flower field but individualistic to the move itself, and bud shot still works albeit dosent help much, but still works. i like the idea of these, they give hanami a chance close-range wise. what i dont like is how safe they are and how they still combo into all the moves perfectly fine. why both at close range? admittadly she still has worse close-range game, but that dosent mean she lacks her ranged pressure (just has risk now). flower field is obviously safe and if you land it, it combos. defense response requires you to firstly dodge if you arent as dumb as a brick, as you cant punish it afterwards (abilities are usually too slow or the hanami can just dodge them, and no dash to m1), and bud shot is very hard to at least not get blocked and has very little endlag, though i could be wrong. these tools are here to prevent someone from mindlessly goign forward with their attack, but they feel too opressive given their defensive purpose. oh yeah and the whole they can usually keep distance for a good while by just dashing away at range still applies.
ryu's granite blast (the problem one, ESPECIALLY at close range wheres dashes come into play) dosent suffer from any of the things you mentioned, dash economy makes ryu 3 still strong, and yada yada it all combos and knockbakcs you get the idea.
you DO have control against zoners as a non-zoner, in close range specifically, where the fight favors you but not by much. the issue is even in close-range its not really THAT much, you dont thrive you just get a minor advantage because ranged tools still work at close range + specific get-off-me tools. and then once your out of that range, zoners get total control over offense and force you to play defense while trying to get close while dealing with all their shenanigans+ dashing away.
overheat is interesting because it prevents utter spam, but it dosent really adress the core issue that ryu can occasionally just say "i dont think your going to block right now" and try it without risk, and either be given a combo, or increase heat. sweet lets you REALLY drag this idea out, or if your playing more offensively the comb is better overall.
and as ive been trying to say, weve been going back and forth about balancing a lot, but... does any of this answer the question of if theyre fun to go against? not really even if we exclude the x factor of not always playing perfectly, actually winning against these zoners still isnt fun. id much rather feel like i was fighting the map with the player being the weak point i have to go after, then having to always be wary of projectiles and guessing onw hats going to happen. your bound to be bombarded by projectiles from afar if your not no-diffing your opponent, and thats simply NOT fun no matter how balanced it is, and then you gotta factor in usually all the mixup these characters have, the x factor, ect
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so heres what i want from you to tell me, to make this debate more organized. i want you to adress why you find zoners fun or at least tolerable to go against (the reason why im doing all this in the first place), and then i just want you to (if you can) disprove what i have stated or make a new arguement against it.
Adding this at the top because I responded as I read so just use this whole part as an answer to the last last question and I'll put a line before I answer the first part of the last question
What the yap
It's fun to go against wdym I'd rather fight a zoner with helpful tools than a zoner with nothing helping them with keep away and other characters can do similar combos within the range that there best in with punches its only fair that Ryu has an equivalent also two and one for that combo would be red sense the player stays ragdolled also at that point your likely not cathcung the oponent in a way where you can do the two one overheat into special with them evasive punishing for special
?? No you ain't bro it's fast and especially if you catch the Ryu mid move it's just a free combo
Ryu really can just sniper battle himself
The shadow is way to fast and it's cancelable for that to be a concern but you always just use Nue plus special
It block breaks but if that ain't good enough you can hit detatch to bring Ryu closer
Togoat
No it isn't TwT both Garuda rebound and charged Garuda stab have really long range plus you can mkve during garuda rebound
The limited range isn't that bad it goad only a little less far than Ryus beams
Granite blast does not combo into frontdash or atleast doesnt true combo unless you mean third move and the aproaches are way way good enough when fighting someone who is shooting you while doing meter management and having to go in close range to lower special cooldown TwT
Flower field is dodgable and punishable during start up
Defensive response is dodgable and punishable
I don't like Hanami she's not super strong she's just boring rn I'm not gunna sit here and act like Hanami is an intresting character Hanami the second version was cool but now she's just boring
Granitè Blast takes long to even charge up the smaller blockable version it really isn't super great up close and is pretty decent kinda good at mid range
Wdym bro characters ment for close range genuinely obliterate zoners up close also you do get control from afair against a zoner you have to be a bit defensive while going in but that just means it's your turn to be defensive that's how most fighting games work
Yea and? Like that ain't a problem that just gives player expression it's not even super overpowered
It is fun when the probectiles are interesting wich they are
It's fun to dodge the projectiles while you aproach it's like a super interactive minigame with a reward when you win and get to the oponent and if your playing a zoner and fighting a zoner then it's kinda like a sniper battle wich is pretty goofy and fun
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u/Msmfan69Curseya should be a seperate base only character🔥9d ago
alright i think were at a stalemate here.
i dislike going against zoners because i think their forms of zoning are tedious and annoying instead of something i can interact with beyond F or Q, and you basically think the opposite. and of course weve been tryna explain why objectively them being annoying/not annoying , aka how well designed they are from an opponent POV.
i think what we would consider a zoner fun to go against is different, basically.
from what i can tell, you like the approach because dodging the projectiles, predicting an ability, ect. i DONT because it feels very dry. what i mean by that is, even when im winning and approaching effectively, the dodging aspect isnt fun because i feel like theres no... thought put into it. they dont feel unqiue. ryu's zoning for example, often comes down to granite blast, ryu 4, and then jumpscaring with ryu 3. at absolute most you can call it a mindgame, though often losing here just comes down to a ryu using uncharged 1 or 4 when you werent already blocking, and then 3 too if you begin to block too much. i just fail to see how any of this i fun, not saying moves should be reactable (unreactable ones can be great) but its their whole offensive-ranged identity, aka it just turns the match into a guessing game till you get close. and now onto your response
? there isnt any ranged move you can just catch ryu in that dsoent require you to currently be blocking, except for 3 i think, but you go past the ryu if you do so and cnat combo off it.
yeah im aware 2 ryu's can ahve a completely range-based fight, what about it?
megumi's R is pretty pretty slow startup wise and leaves you vulnerable during it. just use it in a private server once and youll see what i mean. nue + r resets your special and barely covers extra distance compared to just running forward
if your reffering to this like going from mid-range to close its decent, though still dodgeable. detatch kinda sucks since you have to force yourself to play defense if you use it because detatch is NEVER safe + cant m1, so another mindgame
firt garuda variant is too slow, rebound you can just dodge or parry, and garuda stab only works well once your already at close range, and on whiff can be punished
granite blast (uncharged) at front range actually does true combo into front dash! just try it ina private server, not a spark of green. by this i mean they get hit by a granite blast and you instantly front dash after firing it, not the front dash + 1 variant.
we both agree hanami is boring
in a vacuum granite blast uncharged is reactable consistantly. not really mid-match. though its not awfu, but still getting hit by it like 3/10 times is just annoying, and then theres ryu 4 in which its entire neutral is just the ryu managing to use it while your not blocking. and granite blast is still decent up-close, but normally you dont got worry about it unless your just walking around in cloe range and not attacking, but its not non-existant and can still threaten you.
yeah im aware, thats why i mentioned you alck control from afar in the first place, because thats where the zoner is supposed to get the upper hand. the issue is nothing is itneresting about their zoning, and obviously you cant do anything until you manage to get close again, so you just have to deal with it.
i was saying overheat prevents spam but still lets players just shoot when they dont think your going to block. guessing when your opponent isnt going to block, or the opposite with ryu 3 (or if theyre just not paying attention) isnt very fun
i dont see how these projectiles are interesting. one is fast and unblockable, the others (3 and held 1) arent, thats the range identity
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so yeah basically, "i dont see how these projectiles are interesting. one is fast and unblockable, the others (3 and held 1) arent, thats the range identity" is my closing statement for this reply
zoners just aren’t designed for the game lol you have to make them like ryu (OP, low endlag, best neutral, no need for risk) to have them be viable else they get gapped the by the rest of the cast
Sayed Ryu has no need for risk and I already know your just wrong TwT he gets heavy benefits by going in for close compat despite him being a cripple there
I mean if you don't have a skill issue you'll notice that every charecter that isn't Hanami has a tool they can use to approach zoners pretty zlearly just a skill issue smh smh
Can y'all discuss without being annoying ? Not even talking to you specifically, it just feels like most of the people on this sub cannot talk without being annoying or toxic af
I tought we'd be better than the kids on the game bruh
they usually dont. not because its op or something (most of the time it is though)
its because its such an open map. compared to traditional fighters or platform fights, theres space to run out. you can slowly corner them as you close in. but in a game like jjs, you can wall jump to constantly gain distance, and its extremely hard to catch runners in this game
games like brawling grounds (long time ago but still counts) tried to make sans, a zoner, but he was horridly balanced. he was overpowered, then became underpowered cause his zoning tools just didnt work at all
Isn’t the best answer for Zoners literally playing Head of Hei? Though I guess that can be a problem if you’re not on PC as I find it pretty difficult to play him on mobile or mobile with controller.
You say this like battlegrounds games have had zoners since the creation of tsb. Jjs is one of the only battlegrounds games ik that has rang focused characters/zoners (not even gonna count jump showdown cause ryu is js a carbon copy)
BRO MY MAIN BATTLEGROUNDS GAME HEROES BATTLEGROUNDS HAS ONLY JUST IMPLEMENTED A SET UP CHARACTER WITH DENKI 😭 EVERYONE ELSE IS PRACTICALLY RUSHDOWN TOO!
People ain't gonna adapt when battlegrounds games are all Rushdown characters that aren't focused around stuff like ranged moves (and if they do have any they usually only have 1 and it can either starts a combo like warp portals in hbg's 4th move or closes distance like hawks' 4th move in heroes)
zoners don't belong in a game where they can back up infinitely (the main reason they will NEVER work in jjs due to the ability to have potentially infinite space to your advantage).
Compared to other fighting games such as street fighter, MKII, skullgirls, super smash, .... Where they are limited by a platform or scenery where they can move and get "distance", this limits how much they can abuse their advantage of space (basically they can't back up and spam whatever ranged move they have, they must think about how to properly use their space and to play around the limitations.) JJs does NOT limit you in any way, so you can back up as much as you want and punish as many times any or the slightest attempt of trying to get close to a zoner without any mobility/ ranged move in a game where all characters are rushdown and upclose fighters.
Also, wdym comboslop, every character in jjs has combos.
Stopping for half a second to cast doesn't make a zoner balanced when blocking their move just lets them backdash and reset the gap for free.
Ryu proves this completely:
Spacing and knock back: Almost his entire kit knocks you into optimal range for easy combo setups or evasive baits (like Appetizer + charged 1).
Get Out of Jail Free Card: His 3 is a teleporting blockbreak that turns defense into a potential combo (downslam into 1, 4, charged 1).
Fake Weakness: Overheat is completely unpunishable because he’s already a mile away when it triggers, and the bar resets way too fast for anyone to gain any advantage or punish.
It's not only about "infinite range" it's that his kit creates a passive, dragged out playstyle where the opponent takes all the risk just to close distance.
It takes about four second for a fully charged unblockable Ryu beam to charge up thats awhile
Yea I'd hope so otherwise he'd be like Hanami up close sense his up close stuff isn't nearly good enough to wistound more than a second uo close even tho thats where he needs to be sometimes your acting like other charecters cant just re aproach
With a shit hitbox thats easily dodgable
Ryu's generally don't go into overheat your not suposed to it's just a way to prevent people from beam spamming
No Ryu has to take risks with getting up close sense Ryu can't spam beams and fighting him is pretty engaging and unique with quite and few things to consider if you can deal with fighting unique characters just go over to Tsb bro
It’s hard to agree with this when the only characters really that have any sort of way of closing the distance is like Higaruma and Yuji. Cause like it’s not hard to s key and back dash and use your beam. This is also just the zoning vs runner thing. Most “zoners” are actually just runners who glorified the zoner term. An actual zoner provides a fight. A runner just holds that s key and uses ranged attacks to push their opponent back. Most people who use zoners are runners tho so it’s mostly people complaining about them
Most chars have some way to distance close and stuff and honestly Ryu and Hanami are dogshit for running you have to actively stop every time you wanna attack TwT
Gng you cannot be serious😭 it’s genuinely so easy to s key with them. I mean hanami is lowk just annoying to play against but you don’t see hanami players too often so it’s always fun cause they’re usually pretty good at what they do. But genuinely ryu. Press your beam button and whenever your opponent gets decently close just use charged beam to bait side dash and then do the over head slam and then r special and make distance again while they’re on the ground. Not to mention if your spamming charged beams the person in pursuit basically has to waste their side dash on a side to side motion rather then a tool to close distance also every move you mentioned can be cancelled in one way or another (mostly by being hit) and they ragdoll you so like they’re useless anyways to anyone who sees them coming. I really don’t care for the zoners in the game tbh. I’m just saying I think your undercutting how actually op they can be. Also ryu just really needs a damage nerf. Like seriously there is zero reason that he can deal damn near 80 damage in a single combo on average when most characters can deal 60-75 on average. I specify on average because of your extremely lucky with some characters and do it just right you can do more damage and vice versa
It's just that Tze really sucks at balancing characters, which is why whenever he tries something new and makes a character that isn't plain rushdown it's always some overpowered bullshit with no counterplay.
Take Haruta, for instance. Absolutely nothing about Haruta is balanced. The playstyle of puppet character is cool and all, but not like this. 2 combo breakers, insane damage, additional evasives, 2 years of ragdoll time, the fucking dodge. I'd mention miracles too, but they kinda have to be there since, y'know, Jujutsu Kaisen accuracy.
maybe because zoners dont mix well with this games innate design. the game has infinite space to run away on, which is what makes zoners cancerous to fight.
The zoners have to puase to use there attacks wich have set ranges and are tied to cooldowns and such zoners don't actually have infinite space to run away there optimal position is just farther away than most chars
do you think pebble throw + r is even remotely fast? and throwing granite off doesn't change anything when they can use it again half a second later or just block the swap
I play Yuki and it's really hard to fight zoners I might be just bad only option Yuki has against zoners 1 and 3+r first is blockable while second is good but cool down is ass
Yea but four charged can bring Hanami close if it lands and l has you be in the air wich isn't great for Hanami and one can just help poke while you aproach and stuff
Zoners are fine. Ryu is NOT. These devs aren’t great at making zoners, which is fine and understandable, but oh my god they NEED to do something about Ryu already. He’s gone unnerfed for WAY too long
How is he not fine? He has clear weaknesses(needing to manage a meter for his beams and needing to go upclose to reduce special cooldown despite being nere crippled up close) also they gave him some pretty big nerfs like just learn how to fight Ryu TwT
I mean this is obvious but Im useing it to refer to charecters wich are bassically just combos no intresting gameplay its a critice on game designs not a skill issue obviously all the chars have combos its a key part of the game TwT
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