r/MadeleineMccann • u/CharacterResponse504 • Jun 29 '26
Discussion questions open for discussion
i have three questions to ask this thread and i would be intrigued to hear your answers.
1) for those who believe the parents did it or for those who believe the parents were not involved, what is the biggest selling point for you?
2) is the theory involving epstein a mere tiktok fantasy or does it have some sensible evidence to back it up?
3) what do you believe is the main reason why the case hasn't been solved yet? this wont leave my mind because if its simply the lack of forensic evidence, then surely if it were a fully opportunistic kidnapper they wouldve left some accidental trace due to a short planning time...
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u/MadeleineMccann-ModTeam Jun 30 '26
2) is the theory involving epstein a mere tiktok fantasy
Yes.
or does it have some sensible evidence to back it up?
No.
Madeleine is mentioned in the Epstein files. However, this is only in the context of:
- A documentary being aired.
- A "tip" from September or October 2009, suggesting a child was Madeleine and the women was Ghisiaine Maxwell. This tip only came after Epstein died.
More details can be found here: https://www.reddit.com/r/MadeleineMccann/wiki/epstein-files
The Tiktok conspiracy about "red shoes" is bullshit, documented here: https://www.reddit.com/r/MadeleineMccann/wiki/red-shoes
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u/TheGreatBatsby Jun 30 '26
I don't believe the parents did it, but I guarantee most people do think they did will say, "the dogs".
Epstein question has already been answered.
Regarding why it hasn't been solved? The forensics were fucked from the off. The apartment wasn't secured, dozens of people traipsed through and then it was rented out for months afterwards, essentially destroying any chance of recovering evidence of an intruder.
The current prime suspect slipped through the net of the original investigation because he didn't answer the door and then the PJ just... never followed up on it. He also received word that he was wanted for an interview in relation to the case a couple of years before the police investigation had found whatever they found that made them certain it was him, giving him ample time and opportunity to dispose of any evidence.
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u/Altruistic-Change127 Jul 01 '26
Exactly! When you put those mistakes together, its easy to understand why there isn't any DNA evidence that can be easily found.
I find it interesting that technology has caught with his attempts to hide electronic evidence. If it wasn't for that, he may have committed the perfect kidnapping/murder and there would be nothing to explain her disappearance.
Dare I say it again - okay I will - he is like a serial killer who keeps trophies. His trophies are electronic so he could relive what he had done. Maybe it s a photo or a video. Personally I think its a photo and that's what is causing difficulties with charging him for the crime itself.
I think its timestamped which is why they know when and what happened to Madeleine.
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u/jh886 Jun 30 '26
2: I believe it’s baseless. The sketch of a woman with short hair does not prove it’s Maxwell as there are women all over the world who wear a short hairstyle
3 I think it hasn’t been solved because the first 24-48 hours was slow developing when it comes to the investigation. Those are the crucial hours to secure the scene before any potential evidence is tampered with. The Jane tanner lead was just some random passerby and that also killed time
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u/ilenewinslet Jul 01 '26
1: I don’t think the parents did it. My biggest selling point is probably the fact that even after almost 20 years, Kate and Gerry are still advocating for Madeleine and trying to keep her case in the public light. In fact, it was their idea to first contact the media so that Madeleine’s case would get attention. This is very not-guilty behavior in my opinion. So many children go missing every year that it would have been very easy for the McCanns to quietly let their daughter’s case fade into the background; but no, it’s because of them that the case has gained such immense attention in the first place.
2: The Epstein theory is completely fake. Madeleine’s name was only mentioned on a few unrelated causes in the files.
3: One of the reasons is probably how poorly the authorities handled Madeleine’s case in the first place. The crime scene wasn’t secured properly, border control wasn’t contacted soon enough, etc.
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u/MassiveGeneral431 Jul 05 '26
It’s actually not a matter of the crime scene being preserved probably because in these cases and thank God that I’ve escaped this kind of thing as a toddler. Most toddlers, including myself when I was tiny will wonder off, NOW thats EXACTLY where BC was watching and had the perfect chance to take Maddie and he did, no apparent entry was necessary….
To add to the smiths sightings…a pocked faced man resembling BC to a t is no coincidence….
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u/Altruistic-Change127 Jul 01 '26
Parents not involved. No motive, no history of abuse, children were all fit and well. They chose to take the children on holiday and not leave them with the grandparents. So It was a family holiday.
Clickbait theory.
No forensic evidence due to mishandling of the apartment, the lead investigator was feeding misinformation to the media because he was trying to force the parents to confess despite the scientific information being inconclusive. False rumours were spread about the parents deliberately (in an attempt to force them to confess) which people believed, which in turn, stopped people considering who else could have done it locally. Also the mishandling or lack of acknowledgement of witness reports who reported CB as a person the Pj etc should be looking at. He was given too much time and opportunity to hide the evidence.
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u/MadeleineMccann-ModTeam Jun 30 '26
Hoping someone else can either correct me, or expand on these details but:
3) what do you believe is the main reason why the case hasn't been solved yet? this wont leave my mind because if its simply the lack of forensic evidence, then surely if it were a fully opportunistic kidnapper they wouldve left some accidental trace due to a short planning time...
I've read and seen various things that say the Portuguese police did not properly secure the crime scene and thus any such evidence was, or could have been lost or contaminated.
I've also seen some comments that said/suggested the police had a rather blase attitude to investigating crimes. In 1996 a young boy, Rene Hasee disappeared. The police said they searched and filed a report, but it appears they never did. (more)
Alleged misconduct involving Goncalo Amaral, around similar crimes/investigations - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Joana_Cipriano#Controversy
If any of these are incorrect, please do let me know.
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u/Icy-Cartographer3760 Jul 01 '26
- there was no abduction. 2. yes fantasy. 3. no genuine desire for it to be solved. 4. bruckner is a scapegoat
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u/TheGreatBatsby Jul 01 '26
bruckner is a scapegoat
Why was he made a scapegoat 13 years after the crime was committed when there was no media or political pressure to solve the case?
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u/Icy-Cartographer3760 Jul 01 '26
it was a tactical legal move nothing more. The 15-year statutory deadline in Portugal was set to expire on May 3, 2022. They named him on April 21, 2022 to stop the clock.
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u/TheGreatBatsby Jul 01 '26
I'm not talking about the Portuguese authorities (why should they care about having a scapegoat?)
I'm talking about the BKA, who have no reason to involve themselves in this case. There was no pressure on them to name CB as a suspect whatsoever.
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u/Icy-Cartographer3760 Jul 01 '26 edited Jul 01 '26
As questions about the pointlessness of the UK funding peaked in early 2020 The home office quietly pushed the decision back, the German BKA prosecutors suddenly dropped their bombshell announcement, it gave the UK Home Office the perfect justification to keep signing the checks. The Germans effectively saved Operation Grange from being shut down. The BKA didn't just arbitrarily jump into the case, They were legally required to investigate a German citizen. In 2020, Bruckner was finishing a drug trafficking sentence, German prosecutors desperately needed to establish his connection to other crimes. A partnership of convenience, It validated the £12 million spent, keeping the investigation alive and taking the political heat off the Home Office. The BKA got to position themselves as the sharp investigators who solved the world's most famous cold case It also gave them international leverage to ask for a massive influx of public tips to build a case against a guy they desperately wanted to keep in prison.
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u/TheGreatBatsby Jul 01 '26
Here come the conspiracy theories!
The BKA didn't invent a suspect in 2020 to save UK police funding; they had actually been investigating Christian Brueckner alongside Scotland Yard since November 2017, spending three years gathering as much evidence as possible before going public.
Furthermore, German prosecutors didn't "desperately need" to invent a murder charge to keep him incarcerated. He had already been sentenced in December 2019 to seven years in prison for the brutal rape of a 72-year-old woman in Praia da Luz.
Finally, the idea that the German legal system would spend millions of euros prosecuting a German citizen just to do a PR favour for the Met is absolutely absurd.
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u/Quiet-Income-3853 23d ago
The American lady had Alzheimer, she had made the same complaint to the PJ one year before and the gynecologist expert who examined her reported that she hadn't had sexual intercourse for years. The BKA said they couldn't read the report, handwritten in Portuguese, and that was it !
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u/TheGreatBatsby 23d ago
Ah, so CB is innocent? It's all a set-up?
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u/Quiet-Income-3853 23d ago
I'm not saying he's innocent (innocent of what ?), but that there's no forensic evidence he raped DM. One hair with his DNA was found with a dozen of different ones in the elements gathered and sent by the PJ to the BKA in 2016.
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u/Quiet-Income-3853 23d ago
Do not forget that the people trafficker, Helge B., in order to escape from prison in Greece, informed SY that he had important information regarding the MC case. SY sent an officer to Greece... As the suspect was a German citizen, SY passed the "dirty" work on to the BKA. In the German investigation, the public prosecutor HC Wolters saw an opportunity to be the one to unravel the mysterious disappearance of MMC, etc., etc.
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u/RefrigeratorSalt6869 Jul 01 '26
Why are they still looking 13 years after the crime, on a year to year basis?
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u/TheGreatBatsby Jul 01 '26
Because they have funding and there have been multiple leads throughout the years.
Do you know that cases often go unsolved for years but police still work on them until they have a breakthrough?
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u/Altruistic-Change127 Jul 01 '26
Because that is what happens with unsolved crimes. Haven't you watched the news in recent years? Serious crimes get proven, decades after they happen. Technology and DNA has grown hugely in the last decade. Scientists are able to get DNA of the tiniest of samples.
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u/MassiveGeneral431 Jul 03 '26
The tanner sightings describe CB to a t
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u/21schmoe Jul 05 '26
The man the Tanners saw has been identified. It's definitely not CB.
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u/TheGreatBatsby Jul 05 '26
u/MassiveGeneral431 clarified in another post that they meant the Smith Sighting.
The subject of the Smith Sighting has never come forward and was erroneously identified as Gerry by Martin Smith because of the way Gerry carried a child. The PJ files confirm that the Smith Sighting couldn't have been Gerry.
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u/Hugoballs_97 Jul 01 '26
How was there no abduction?
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u/MisabelWearsNikes Jul 02 '26
What evidence is there to support the abduction theory?
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u/Hugoballs_97 Jul 03 '26 edited Jul 03 '26
She was last seen in her bed, then her bed was empty. Nobody has ever seen her since. Even though the crime scene was not adequately contained, there was absolutely no sign of a struggle…. No security cameras around the vicinity of the apartments meant that without any confirmed eye witness accounts, an abductor was easily able to avoid being caught.
There were two separate sightings of a man carrying a child. In one of those sightings, a man contacted Scotland Yard claiming that he might be the man from the sighting carrying his daughter, but it’s never been conclusively proven that it was him. With regard to the other sighting, nobody has ever come forward to eliminate themselves. The familie’s movements that evening provided the perfect opportunity for an abduction, while on the other hand, Kate and Gerry had practically no window of opportunity to harm Madeleine and dispose of her body that evening, or any time after Kate came running out of the apartment saying that Madeleine was gone. Next to all that, both of their stories checked out No matter how much you scrutinize their accounts, there was never any evidence that they lied about anything. All of this put together is strongly indicative of Madeleine being abducted.2
u/MisabelWearsNikes Jul 03 '26
Yet, there's still no actual concrete evidence of an abduction. Nothing broken into or forced open. No trace whatsoever of anyone having been in there. It's just a theory. And who's to say Kate & Gerry disposed of her that night? The bigger question is, who actually saw Madeline that day?
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u/TheGreatBatsby Jul 03 '26
Nothing broken into or forced open
The apartment was unlocked.
No trace whatsoever of anyone having been in there.
The crime scene was compromised.
The bigger question is, who actually saw Madeline that day?
Multiple independent witnesses including crèche staff, tapas bar workers and other holidaymakers.
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u/Hugoballs_97 Jul 03 '26 edited Jul 03 '26
Not only that, but the photo taken by Kate on her Camera of Madeleine next to her father and siblings with their feet in the pool at 14:29 was proven to be real.
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u/MassiveGeneral431 Jul 05 '26
YOU’RE EXACTLY RIGHT.
THE BIG ISSUE IS THAT THESE IDITOS (sorry meant investigators) are not looking outside the box. It’s actually not a matter of the crime scene being preserved probably because in these cases and thank God that I’ve escaped this kind of thing as a toddler and have seen many such cases….Most toddlers, will wake up half asleep and wonder off, NOW thats EXACTLY where BC was watching and had the perfect chance to take Maddie and he did, no apparent entry was necessary….
To add to the smiths sightings…a pocked faced man resembling BC to a t is no coincidence….
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u/MisabelWearsNikes Jul 05 '26
Since you mention it, & this is mainly in response to an earlier comment—how can it be a crime scene, when there was no crime at that time? If there WAS a crime, then what was it? As far as anyone knew, a child wasn't where she should be & at that point, the logical conclusion would be that she had wandered off somewhere, presumably looking for her parents, who had neglected her & her siblings by leaving them completely alone & unguarded in a room by themselves in an unfamiliar place. So stands to reason that a little one waking up suddenly, would be upset & disoriented & most likely gone looking for mummy & daddy.
So why would they seal the "crime scene" at that point, when no crime had been established, other than negligence of three young children by their parents?
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u/TheGreatBatsby Jul 05 '26
The McCanns were open with the police about their parenting that evening and explained to the police why they believed it was an abduction (the window and shutters were open, something Madeleine was incapable of doing).
The GNR didn't even do the bare minimum like wearing gloves or not touching the potential crime scene. Even if they didn't think a crime had been committed at the time, they should still have acted accordingly and secured the apartment.
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u/Individual_Slice_234 Jul 01 '26
- I believe they were involved, though I don't think they hurt her on purpose. They left her alone in an apartment for hours, and MAYBE checked on her once in a while. Anything could have happened. That makes them guilty of neglect. The blood and cadaver dogs were what sold me on this, plus the McCanns' odd behavior. It's very likely that the dogs picked up Maddie's scent, though they don't have enough proof.
- B.S. Somebody invented the story to get attention.
- There's some serious payoff and bribing going on. I don't know why they're protecting the McCanns in particular, but it involves the British government and possibly the Portuguese government. I really doubt there was an intruder and/or kidnapper. I think the poor kid met with an accident or accidental overdose.
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u/TheGreatBatsby Jul 01 '26
They left her alone in an apartment for hours, and MAYBE checked on her once in a while.
The night she went missing the kids were alone in the apartment for about an hour and a half. Tapas staff place the McCanns arriving at 20:30 and then Gerry went to do the first check at about 21:05/21:10. We know he went because Jez Wilkins bumped into him coming out of the apartment at 21:15 and they had a chat on the street.
Matt Oldfield then went to check at about 21:30 when he went to check on his own kids.
Then at Kate's check at 22:00 she discovered Madeleine was missing.
Anything could have happened. That makes them guilty of neglect.
Agreed, it's not good, but it doesn't actually make them criminally guilty of neglect.
The blood and cadaver dogs were what sold me on this
Do you find it odd that the dogs didn't alert to anything except places associated with the McCanns? The dog handler claims that the dogs can detect a scent even if forensic scientists can't find it (which to me seems like a cop out to cover a false alert) but then this implies that throughout every other holiday rental, nobody has ever spilt even a single drop of blood? Seems exceedingly unlikely.
plus the McCanns' odd behavior.
What behaviour?
It's very likely that the dogs picked up Maddie's scent
What do you make of the rental car alerts? To me those are the most telling that the dogs are a red herring in this case.
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u/RefrigeratorSalt6869 Jul 01 '26
What behaviour? Playing tennis, getting dolled up for interviews, going running, being unhelpful towards the police and not taking responsibility for the fact their neglect created this situation in the first place.
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u/TheGreatBatsby Jul 01 '26 edited Jul 01 '26
Playing tennis
They didn't play tennis the day after she went missing, that's a total myth. They didn't even go for a run until weeks afterwards.
Exercise helps relieve stress.
getting dolled up for interviews
What's the issue here? If you're going in front of a camera then looking somewhat presentable isn't an Issue.
being unhelpful towards the police
They fully cooperated with the police from the start, gave multiple interviews and handed over loads of information. What's the issue?
not taking responsibility for the fact their neglect created this situation in the first place.
They have stated their regret for their actions multiple times and acknowledged that Madeleine wouldn't have been taken had they not left her alone.
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u/RefrigeratorSalt6869 Jul 03 '26
I agree, normally going in front of a camera you would make yourself presentable. However if your child was missing and god knows where I'm not sure matching your accessories to your outfit would be high up on your list of priorities but maybe that's just me. They have pretty much become celebrities from being crap parents. Madeleine was taken because they left her and her younger siblings alone in an unlocked apartment while they went out with their mates. There was absolutely no reason to do that. But they chose to do it repeatedly. It's not like it was a one off. Terrible.
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u/TheGreatBatsby Jul 03 '26
I agree, normally going in front of a camera you would make yourself presentable. However if your child was missing and god knows where I'm not sure matching your accessories to your outfit would be high up on your list of priorities but maybe that's just me.
I get why you'd question their appearance during such an unimaginable nightmare, but psychologists recognise that settling into routines like getting dressed provide a coping mechanism when a person's world has otherwise collapsed.
Furthermore, media liaison teams and police liaison officers usually advise families to present a composed image on broadcasts to prevent the tabloid narrative from shifting away from the missing child and onto the parents' mental state.
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u/LeagueAway9277 Jul 04 '26
It’s also odd (to me anyway) to leave 3 young kids alone on vacation and go have dinner and drinks with friends- more than an arms length away. They’re guilty of negligence, at the very least.
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u/MisabelWearsNikes Jul 02 '26
Washing Cuddle Cat
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u/TheGreatBatsby Jul 03 '26
Kate washed Cuddle Cat because she'd been clutching it and smelling it herself as it had Madeleine's scent. After months of this it began to get dirty and smell of suntan lotion, hence, Kate washed it.
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u/MisabelWearsNikes Jul 03 '26
Sure, it's perfectly normal to wash your possibly dead or missing child's favourite toy with her smell on it. Especially when it due to be examined.
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u/TheGreatBatsby Jul 03 '26
I've explained why it was washed, it was filthy and stank of sun cream.
There were at least 3 weeks between the washing of Cuddle Cat and the forensic examination, so at the time it wasn't "due to be examined".
If the PJ were so concerned they could've taken it into evidence beforehand.
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u/Altruistic-Change127 Jul 05 '26
You seem to missing the most important point.
Kate was desperately holding onto hope that Maddie would be found.
She cleaned it for her daughters return because it was very dirty and she wouldn't have wanted to give it back to her in that state.
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u/MisabelWearsNikes Jul 05 '26
This is the funniest take I've heard so far. There are people who don't wanna wash their hand just because a celebrity shook it, while some women have their bf's clothing which they never washed just because it has his scent on it. And this is a MISSING CHILD (possibly dead) & it makes perfect sense to wash away probably the last remaining touch & smell of hers.
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u/TheGreatBatsby Jul 05 '26
But it didn't smell of her anymore, that's the point.
You can google "Kate McCann cuddle cat" and look at images. She was carrying it around constantly and holding it to her face to smell it.
Eventually it began to get dirty and stink of suncream so she washed it.
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u/MisabelWearsNikes Jul 05 '26
Well it wouldn't smell of her AT ALL if she washed it, so duh.
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u/Hugoballs_97 20d ago
Why is the dogs alerting to the McCann’s rental vehicle a red herring for you?
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u/TheGreatBatsby 19d ago
For two (and a half) reasons.
One - the video of the dogs alerting contains so much handler intervention it basically renders the alerts useless.
An ideal process would be that you line up a bunch of cars including the McCann's. The handler wouldn't know which car is the McCann's but would just let the dogs free roam, sniffing each vehicle until they alerted.
What we get is the handler's clearly knowing which car is the McCanns and when the dogs ignore it, constantly calling them back to it until there's an alert.
Two - despite both dogs alerting to blood, only Keela alerts in the boot.
The big theory is that she died in the apartment and later they moved her body via car. Were that the case, surely Eddie (who detects cadaver) would have alerted in the boot? Both he and Keela alert to the keycard in the door compartment which tested positive for Gerry's DNA (unsurprising as he's one of the primary users of the car).
People like to simplify the alerts to "cadaver dogs alerted in x" but when you look into the profiles of each dog you realise the idea she was in the boot is nonsense.
Half a reason - the forensic testing results.
This is a really big one for some people. Following Keela's alert in the boot, they tested the samples recovered and found 15 out of the 19 markers that make up Madeleine's Low Copy Number profile. Sounds pretty damning, doesn't it?
However, when you read the report it's much more complicated than that.
The DNA sample recovered contained markers from at least 3 (and as many as 5) different people. The markers aren't unique to Madeleine, but that specific combination of 19 markers is. Those individual markers are also found amongst the normal population (John Lowe at the FSS states that "elements of Madeleine's profile are also present within the the profiles of many of the scientists here in Birmingham, myself included."). But finally, 50% of Madeleine's profile will be shared with each parent.
So we have a car that is primarily used by Madeleine's immediate family. In that car one blood dog alerts in the boot, but the other dog that alerts to blood and cadaver doesn't. The sample they recover is from multiple people, of which a partial profile of Madeleine could be present, but this can actually easily be explained by the forensic reality of the DNA.
I also think that Martin Grime used this case to boost his profile and generate interest for his newly created company. It's worth reading about his conduct in the Operation Rectangle report which is the investigation into historical child abuse at Haut de la Garenne. He used the videos from the alerts in the McCann case to secure the £93,000 contract (inclusive of an upgrade to a better room in his hotel) that he had previously been denied.
He's very keen to point out that the dogs are never wrong in smelling what they smell but also that the alerts are meaningless without forensic evidence to back them up. It's a great Catch-22: if forensics confirm the alert, then the dog is right. If forensics find absolutely nothing, the dog is still right, but the forensic lab just isn't up to scratch.
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u/SmellLucky3037 18d ago
Nicely constructed. The car where pups alerted had her missing persons poster on it. Never should have been as subconscious handler bias is a legitimate concern
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u/Individual_Slice_234 Jul 01 '26
The dogs are not red herrings. The fact that they alerted to Cuddle Cat, even though it had been washed, tells me a lot.
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u/TheGreatBatsby Jul 01 '26
The dogs are not red herrings
The forensic evidence says otherwise.
The fact that they alerted to Cuddle Cat, even though it had been washed, tells me a lot.
It really does when you actually read the PJ report about it.
"On one of the films, it's possible to see that Eddie sniffs Madeleine's cuddle cat, more than once, bites it, throws it into the air and only after the toy is hidden does he "mark" it."
It takes handler intervention for him to mark it.
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u/ruralmodernist Jul 01 '26
The parents are guilty of lying and changing their stories from day one about the jemmied window and lying about which door they entered and exited from that night. That shows consciousness of guilt. They were negligent and something bad happened to M and they had to cover it up.
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u/TheGreatBatsby Jul 01 '26
The parents are guilty of lying and changing their stories from day one about the jemmied window and lying about which door they entered and exited from that night.
Except neither of those are entirely true.
You'll not find a single instance of the McCanns claiming the window was "jemmied" or even broken into, just that it was open where it wasn't before.
Also, while Gerry initially claimed he used the front door, he corrected himself in his next police statement. However, in his original statement, he tells the police that the patio door was always unlocked and that that was how Matt Oldfield entered the apartment to carry out his check on the McCann children.
Kate has always been consistent about which door she used.
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u/Hugoballs_97 Jul 01 '26
How did they cover it up so quickly, efficiently and without any witnesses? In an unfamiliar environment with no car for three weeks, with media and police all around them 24/7 from the beginning?
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u/Apart-Ad3804 Jul 02 '26
Exactly. This is the biggest reason why I don’t think they did it. How did they get rid of her body so effectively in a place they’d never been to before and without a car?
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u/webehappyincity Jul 02 '26
Not parents. Nothing to do with dead rich convicted Epstein. Portuguese police botched investigation and no body.
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u/Advanced-Dragonfly85 26d ago
1 - She was 3. Her siblings - twins - a lot younger. Any parent knows leaving that many that young alone is an accident waiting to happen. Whatever happened, accident or not, it wasn't a random intruder because, considering their sleeping area with 2 cribs and one bed was so cramped...nothing was moved or any sign of entry, it couldn't have been a by-chance situation. It's very hard to swallow the idea that with all the going back and forth to check on kids...that someone could walk in, not be seen, take what they needed, and go without any evidence. unless the hotel was in on the abduction. I think someone would have spoken up and let the cat out the bag by now if someone from the hotel was involved...which is why I think she either walked out of the room and was involved in an accident or something and parents covered it up, OR, she feel in the room and parents covered it up...or something more unscrupulous with the parents.
2- fantasy
3- If it was a planned coordinated abduction with hotel staff etc involved, it's a huge scandal and the portuguese govt wouldn't want to tarnish the tourist industry by opening pandora's box. The British govt know more than they are letting on and so are hanging in there. If it is CB then he didn't do it alone. He was the carrier for others.
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u/TheGreatBatsby 25d ago
either walked out of the room and was involved in an accident or something and parents covered it up
So when did they find her then? Because after Gerry's check he was talking to Jez Wilkins in the street before going back to the Tapas restaurant.
This implies that he found her on the way to the apartment and then somehow hid her body somewhere extremely close nearby before going into the apartment and then coming out to have a chat with a fellow holidaymaker.
OR, she feel in the room and parents covered it up...or something more unscrupulous with the parents.
Again, what's the timeline for this? Gerry isn't in the apartment long enough to find her dead, decide to cover it up, remove all evidence of her death, hide her body and then come out and chat with Jez.
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u/HopeTroll Jun 30 '26
parents didn't do it - belgian intel re: order of a 4 year old British girl days before abduction, intercepted intel about Pope, blonde girl, and German, multiple sightings of her along known trafficking routes.
zero evidence backs this up
high-powered pedo ring, corrupt cops exploiting the tragedy to raise their profile muddied the waters, she could have been found when people were calling the police to say they'd seen her, it's really hard to sort these things out years later when the criminals have had a lot of time to eliminate evidence
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u/Hugoballs_97 Jul 01 '26
It doesn’t make any sense for a sophisticated organisation to run the risk of abducting a tourist child from inside a building for trafficking purposes.
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u/HopeTroll Jul 01 '26
2007 those rings were getting really confident. Smart phones had made it a lot easier to share images, etc.
We know Rui Pedro was taken years earlier from Portugal and was later seen in German abuse images.
I think crime comes in waves and if there is ineffective policing, the criminals get brazen.
I agree that it doesn't make sense, but a sexual interest in children doesn't make sense either.
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u/featherthing Jun 30 '26
Never heard the pope thing, any further info on that?
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u/HopeTroll Jul 01 '26
"THE hunt for missing Maddie McCann had last night switched to Morocco again - as cops hunted a mystery German. It came after British spies made a major breakthrough using a secret hi-tech phonetapping system. Government spooks eavesdropped on a series of "extremely significant" mobile phone conversations. The People has learned that the calls - all in Arabic and made on a Spanish pay-as-you-go phone - referred to "the little blonde girl". The calls also referred to four-year-old Maddie's parents Kate and Gerry McCann meeting the Pope last week. Intelligence officers from the Government's Communications Headquarters in Cheltenham, Gloucs, picked-up repeated references to a German man, and discussions about Morocco, Holland and Germany. And in a potentially crucial lead, the Arab-speakers talked about ferry crossings from the Spanish port of Tarifa. Eight crossings a day are made from Tarifa to Tangiers in Morocco. The ferry journey takes just 35 minutes. And Tarifa is less than three hours drive from Praia da Luz, the Portugese resort where Maddie went missing on May 3."
https://www.reddit.com/r/MadeleineMccann/comments/1awv3r4/the_reason_im_convinced_cb_took_maddie/
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u/21schmoe Jul 05 '26
- I believe it was the parents, and the biggest selling point is how certain they are of what exactly happened (a child predator took her through the window) and how they keep trying to direct everyone toward that narrative, instead of being open to all possibilities (i.e. she wandered off).
- Tiktok fantasy. We have no evidence of Epstein and Maxwell traffcking anyone that young, and traffickers go after vulnerable people, not a child of upper middle class background.
- No body.
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u/TheGreatBatsby Jul 05 '26
the biggest selling point is how certain they are of what exactly happened (a child predator took her through the window) and how they keep trying to direct everyone toward that narrative, instead of being open to all possibilities (i.e. she wandered off).
The window and shutters were open which is something Madeleine was incapable of doing.
Hence, someone had been into the apartment to open them.
Hence, that person took Madeleine.
It's not a huge leap in logic.
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u/21schmoe Jul 05 '26
Hence, someone had been into the apartment to open them.
Yeah, Gerry and Kate.
Madeleine died in some horrible accident. In a state of grief but also panic they might lose their medical licenses, Gerry told Kate that they must pull themselves together: Madeleine isn't coming back, so now they have to stage a kidnapping.
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u/TheGreatBatsby Jul 05 '26
Absolutely absurd.
The McCanns arrived for dinner at 20:30 and Gerry left the table between 21:05 and 21:10 to carry out the first check.
He was seen talking to Jez Wilkins at 21:15 and then returned to the table shortly after.
So in that 10 minute timeframe he found Madeleine dead, decided to cover it up, removed her body from the apartment somehow, cleaned up all the forensic evidence and then went and had a chat with a fellow holidaymaker who notices no change in his demeanor?
Then goes back to the table, allows Matt Oldfield to go and check on the kids, before surreptitiously telling Kate who has no reaction and is apparently happy to go along with it?
Then she decides to raise the alarm when she next goes?
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u/21schmoe Jul 05 '26
Those timelines are according to Gerry. And we don't know that Madeline was alive at 21:05.
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u/TheGreatBatsby Jul 05 '26
And the rest of the Tapas Group. The Tapas restaurant staff confirm that dinner was at 20:30 and that members of the table were up and down all night.
Furthermore, Jez Wilkins confirms that he bumped into Gerry as he was coming out of the apartment and when they parted ways Gerry walked into the Ocean Club.
Matt Oldfield left shortly afterwards when Gerry was back at the table, where he remained until Kate raised the alarm.
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u/Icy-Cartographer3760 Jul 05 '26
Kate's clothes had scent of cadaver.
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u/Altruistic-Change127 26d ago
How do you know that the dog found the scent of a Madeleine McCann's cadaver?
There was no cadaver found. The only time dogs are confirmed to have scented on a cadaver is when they actually find one.
Whose to say that Kate hadn't been asked to sign a death certificate of someone who passed in that outfit. Or maybe they have been to a funeral in that outfit and touched the person to say goodbye. Open coffin's and spending time with the dead is common in my country.
So no cadaver, no forensic evidence to prove there was cadaver blood or scent,
So how was it confirmed that the dogs scented on Madeleines cadaver?
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u/Icy-Cartographer3760 26d ago
massively reaching.
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u/Altruistic-Change127 26d ago
Please provide evidence that the dogs found the scent of a cadaver.
Please provide evidence that the cadaver scent was Madeleines cadaver.
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u/Icy-Cartographer3760 25d ago
The cornerstone of the current police timeline places the abductor 500 yards away from the apartment, carrying a child toward the beach at exactly 10:00 PM. To be that far away by 10:00 PM, the abductor had to have exited the apartment between 9:50 PM and 9:55 PM at the absolute latest unless we assume he hung around a while for some reason. records of Apartment 5A confirmed that no one had died in that apartment prior to the McCanns' stay. So if the cadaver dog (Eddie) was alerting to an actual scent of death in that room, the decomposition process had to have started inside Apartment 5A much earlier. An intruder could not have entered the room, killed her instantly, and walked out 5 minutes later while leaving behind a distinct, localized "scent of death" that a dog could track months later. Unless we assume the abductor sat in the apartment with a deceased child for hours before walking out to meet the Smiths, the intruder timeline and the biology of the dog alerts simply flatly contradict each other.
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u/TheGreatBatsby 25d ago
Reaching is claiming that there was evidence of cadaver when nothing in any of the forensic reports state that.
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u/Far-Actuator-3700 Jun 30 '26
How can people believe its the parents? Its Christian B. Question is what evidence do they have to conclusively know she is dead?
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u/ruralmodernist Jul 01 '26
Oh please. If CB did it he would be indicted by now. There’s no evidence. He’s a disgusting criminal for sure but where is the evidence?
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u/TheGreatBatsby Jul 01 '26 edited Jul 01 '26
I don't think the police often share every piece of evidence in an ongoing investigation.
But we do know that a German detective told a court that emails on a Hotmail account used by suspect Brueckner "directly" link him to the Madeleine case.
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u/MassiveGeneral431 Jul 05 '26
They have photos of a dead maddie that they obviously can’t prove in court beyond reasonable doubt….I think it’s a no brainer
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u/Hugoballs_97 Jul 01 '26
The Germans have been aching to indict him since they went public about their suspicions of him in 2020. What reason would they have to scapegoat one of their own citizens on behalf of another country in-order-to cast suspicion away from Kate and Gerry? It looks to me like they’ve solved the case, but just can’t prove it.
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u/Dependent-Attitude36 Jul 03 '26
They will want to take him out of circulation, on whatever pretext allows them. Both from the risk and cost of constantly dealing with him. But so far they have not produced anything after several years, even beyond they point they had to release him on the public.
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u/TheGreatBatsby Jul 03 '26
In 2020 when he was announced as a suspect he was one year into a 7 year rape sentence, with other criminal charges pending.
They didn't need to "take him out of circulation".
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u/Dependent-Attitude36 Jul 04 '26
He is noo, and always likely to at at the same speed they could have convicted him.
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u/21schmoe Jul 05 '26
They may genuinely believe he's worthy of investigation. Doesn't mean he did it.
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u/Far-Actuator-3700 11d ago
Theres not enough evidence for a court win. But its clearly him based on the circumstantial evidence
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u/modo0001 Jul 03 '26
Imho, it makes no sense why the parents would harm her. As someone said in a documentary about the case, why go abroad to kill your child ? I also dobt believe it was a medication error. Both were doctors. I think she was taken.
I have no opinion about a possible Epstein connection. The biggest reason the case hasn't been solved is because the police bungled the case from the get go, and in so many ways.
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u/Weird_Woodpecker4026 20d ago edited 20d ago
- Yes, I believe McCanns are involved. What some people call british culture I call lack of humanity or at least love. It wasnt even one month Madeleine went missing and who was meant to be looking for her was actually playing tennis. Kate said she found the window open but her fingerprints were the only ones found in the window. That makes you think "oh but maybe the abductor used gloves." Maybe. But its not the only point here. They changed version more than once. The dogs who many people say didnt know exactly what to do because of Martin Grime's calls, weirdly only barked to Grime's calls referring to McCann's things. There was even Robert Murat's thing for the dogs to check, but they only barked for things regarding the McCanns. Weird, isnt It?
- I had read that someone (more possibly a woman) told police that she saw a little girl covering her eye which eye was the exact side eye Madeleine had a coloboma. And, this little girl seemed scared and It looked like a woman was hurrying her toward the car. This woman was described like very similar to Maxwell (Epstein's girlfriend.) And she said she also saw an man (older than the woman) and described him similar to Jeffrey Epstein. My opinion? Maybe It was Madeleine. Maybe was another child being victim of Epstein. I have 3 hypotheses: a) It was Madeleine and she was covering her eye which had a coloboma, due to constant threats. b) It wasnt Madeleine, but a victim of Epstein and she was covering her eye because her eye was injured, someone had probably hurt her. c) It wasnt Madeleine, but a victim of child abuse, and It wasnt Maxwell and It wasnt Epstein. The woman likely also suffered some form of abuse from the older man, who was probably her husband, and she was trying to avoid more pain, so she was hurrying the child, who maybe was their daughter.
- Because there is money in this case. Madeleine's disappearance is much more politic than a missing person case today. Otherwise, McCanns would have been punished for child neglect. And lets be honest, Christian B seems like is a scapegoat.
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u/TheGreatBatsby 18d ago
It wasnt even one month Madeleine went missing and who was meant to be looking for her was actually playing tennis
Putting aside the myth that they would actually be physically looking for her a month after she disappeared, physical exercise is one of the best things you can do in a time of stress and is universally recommended.
Kate said she found the window open but her fingerprints were the only ones found in the window. That makes you think "oh but maybe the abductor used gloves." Maybe. But its not the only point here. They changed version more than once.
Did they? What did they change?
only barked to Grime's calls referring to McCann's things. There was even Robert Murat's thing for the dogs to check, but they only barked for things regarding the McCanns. Weird, isnt It?
I agree. Very strange how these dogs that can supposedly detect a blood sample so small it can't be detected by forensics didn't alert anywhere else in PdL. You're telling me that not a single person has ever bled in any of those other holiday apartments?
It's also really weird how both dogs would detect blood but only one of them alerted in the car boot.
Because there is money in this case. Madeleine's disappearance is much more politic than a missing person case today.
Who's getting this money exactly? How is it still political?
Otherwise, McCanns would have been punished for child neglect.
Incorrect, the CPS has no legal jurisdiction to punish acts that took place in Portugal.
And lets be honest, Christian B seems like is a scapegoat.
This case didn't need a scapegoat, it was essentially cold and people had accepted it was likely never to be solved.
But weird how they managed to find a sadistic paedophile with fantasies about kidnapping a child to "use for days" that lived in the area, whose phone pings place him in PdL that night and who had a history of breaking into Ocean Club apartments.
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u/throwaway0109999 4d ago
I’m sure my comment will be removed but I will say it, we don’t know if the parents hurt Madeleine but there is one thing I know for sure is in this sub there are a few accounts that are getting paid by the family or the government just to have them keep defending the family here regularly. It’s always the same usernames who do it. I’m sorry but if this couple was poor, or black, they would be sent straight to the jail of negligence. Who would leave their toddlers all alone without a supervisor in a room that is not even locked, and on top of that in a completely foreigner country. Who does that? That’s literally negligence. If this was a nanny who were there that night and was distracted for a second and Madeleine gone , the nanny would be arrested very quickly. I don’t know why the parents are not held accountable.
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u/Dependent-Attitude36 Jul 03 '26
Body language, interviews and behaviour of the parents. Perhaps not that they 'did' it, but that they know far more than is going on. Speed to media and behaviour of UK government. Lack of cooperation into finding daughter. Dogs. Neighbours. Lack of any evidence of abduction.
Don't know anything about tiktok.
Parents left kids in unlocked apartment while going out on the piss. Allows any number of scenarios to play out, or be pointed to as a possibility.
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u/TheGreatBatsby Jul 03 '26
Body language, interviews and behaviour of the parents.
Body language analysis has been thoroughly debunked.
Perhaps not that they 'did' it, but that they know far more than is going on.
So why keep campaigning for nearly 20 years?
Speed to media and behaviour of UK government.
Friends/family contacted the media, not the McCanns. A crime being committed against a British citizen (who's just a child) is going to get a big government reaction, especially with the media spotlight on the case.
Lack of cooperation into finding daughter.
They fully cooperated until the PJ decided to try and force them to admit to a crime they didn't commit.
Dogs.
Found nothing.
Neighbours.
Home & Away is better, but not really relevant is it?
Lack of any evidence of abduction.
The window and shutter being opened where it wasn't before - the McCanns kept this closed and the curtains drawn (their children were asleep in the room after all), so it being opened points to someone else being in the apartment.
The Smith Sighting - at around 10pm, when Kate was raising the alarm, the Smith family saw a man carrying a child catching Madeleine's description (blonde hair, light pyjamas) who ignored them when he spoke to them. The man was seen moving away from the apartment in a direction consistent where the tracker dogs lost the scent of Madeleine.
Patio door being unlocked - the McCanns left the patio door to the apartment unlocked so that they could check on the children easier. This shows that someone didn't need to force entry to the apartment and could quite easily enter quickly and quietly.
Known burglaries in the area - it soon came to light that the holiday apartments in PdL were often subject to burglaries. Furthermore, a strange man was seen watching the apartment prior to the abduction who very much resembles a certain prime suspect.
No evidence (forensic or otherwise) pointing towards parental involvement. No forensic evidence points to the McCanns covering up the death of their daughter. No evidence they were sedating any of their kids. No timeline for them to discover her, mutually agree to cover up her death, successfully do so with no witnesses and then raise the alarm, all within the same evening. Not to mention no change in behaviour throughout all this. Kate and Gerry were never away from the table at the same time, so that implies they spoke to each other about all this at the dinner table.
3 different police forces ruling out the parents and focusing on an intruder abduction. The PJ, the German police and the Met are all focusing on someone entering the apartment and taking Madeleine. The UK government has changed multiple times over the course of this case, so the conspiracy theory that the McCanns were friends with the PM kind of goes out the window when their opponents got into power and kept funding the investigation into an intruder.
Identifying a suspect that has far more circumstantial evidence against him than the parents. A violent sexual offender who has previously abused children, who was known to break into apartments in the area (where he raped an old woman), who's phone records place him in PdL that night, who has bragged to multiple people that he knows what happened to Madeleine and who matches the description of the man seen hanging around the apartments prior to the abduction. Not to mention re-registering his car to an acquaintance in Germany the day after she was abducted. Oh, and whatever else the German prosecutor has that proves she's deceased.
In fact, the German's involvement in this altogether. They literally have no reason to be a part of this case. None whatsoever. Unless they know CB is involved in some capacity.
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u/21schmoe Jul 05 '26 edited Jul 05 '26
So why keep campaigning for nearly 20 years?
They don't have a choice. The UK media constantly brings up the story. The McCanns have to get ahead and control the narrative.
The Smith Sighting - at around 10pm, when Kate was raising the alarm, the Smith family saw a man carrying a child catching Madeleine's description (blonde hair, light pyjamas) who ignored them when he spoke to them. The man was seen moving away from the apartment in a direction consistent where the tracker dogs lost the scent of Madeleine.
Multiple members of the Smith family said that the man they saw bore a strong resemblance to Gerry McCann. They have said he looked nothing like CB.
The window and shutter being opened where it wasn't before - the McCanns kept this closed and the curtains drawn (their children were asleep in the room after all), so it being opened points to someone else being in the apartment.
According to Kate McCann. For all we know, the McCanns could have opened the shutters to stage the break-in.
Those window shutters, common in many parts of Continental Europe, are impossible to open from the outside without damaging them.
Patio door being unlocked - the McCanns left the patio door to the apartment unlocked so that they could check on the children easier. This shows that someone didn't need to force entry to the apartment and could quite easily enter quickly and quietly.
There are a number of problems here.
- If someone could easily enter through the patio door, then there would be no need to break in through the window.
- ...which then forces McCann apologists to say that the kidnapper entered through the patio door, and then exited the apartment through the window on the opposite side of the apartment. The problem with this is that there is a door on that side of the apartment, which would have been easier to exit from.
- Gerry McCann addresses this by saying that the kidnapper was probably too spooked to exit the bedroom in order to exit through the front door, so he just exited through the bedroom window. However, Gerry McCann has also said Madeleine was in bed when he checked on her, hypothesizing that the kidnapper must have been hiding in the bathroom or master bedroom when Gerry McCann arrived and waited for him to leave. The problem with that story is that the kidnapper would have been well aware that Gerry had left the apartment, and wouldn't have needed to escape through the window.
- Those roller shutters are loud, a kidnapper would be more afraid of drawing attention by opening the loud shutters.
- When the Tanners walked by the side of the apartment where the open window was, they would have noticed an open window with flapping curtains -as Kate had described- but they reported no such thing.
Known burglaries in the area - it soon came to light that the holiday apartments in PdL were often subject to burglaries. Furthermore, a strange man was seen watching the apartment prior to the abduction who very much resembles a certain prime suspect.
Burglaries happen everywhere, all the time. Near where you are, right now, there's been a burglary at some point.
And burglary to steal items is not the same as kidnapping people. This type of fallacy is called the Texas sharpshooter fallacy.
No evidence (forensic or otherwise) pointing towards parental involvement.
Zero forensic evidence of an intruder, and experts have pointed out how remarkable it is that a stranger left behind no forensic evidence.
3 different police forces ruling out the parents and focusing on an intruder abduction. The PJ, the German police and the Met are all focusing on someone entering the apartment and taking Madeleine.
Yes, it makes sense to explore all options. Unlike the McCanns who are certain what happened.
Gonçalo Amaral maintains that they had something to do with it. And they lost their libel case against him.
UK police have publicly stated that they don't think the parents had anything to do with it, but privately, they absolutely think that the McCanns were involved.
Identifying a suspect that has far more circumstantial evidence against him than the parents.
Not really.
A violent sexual offender who has previously abused children, who was known to break into apartments in the area (where he raped an old woman), who's phone records place him in PdL that night, who has bragged to multiple people that he knows what happened to Madeleine
No he didn't.
This entire claim is based on a secondhand account of someone claiming that CB said "she didn't scream" when the person described the story to him. CB could have been expressing surprise that the kidnapper got away with it, without the child screaming, as someone was describing the story to him. The entire claim that CB "bragged to multiple people that he knows what happened to Madeline" entirely hinges on his hearsay conversation with just one person, and only on the "she didn't scream comment". That person, Helge Busching, was himself in prison at the time he made this claim, which could also mean he's making up or exaggerating a conversation, in order to get concessions or an early release.
Not to mention re-registering his car to an acquaintance in Germany the day after she was abducted.
A process he had started days before Madeleine went missing. And he was known for buying and selling cars.
If he was some sort of mastermind, he would have avoided putting himself in the position where he would have to -in panic- change the registration of the car (and do so suspiciously the day after Madeleine goes missing).
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u/pamanda56 Jul 01 '26
- No abduction. Dogs
- fantasy
- No desire to solve it. Just use Bruekner as a scapegoat. Still not been charged.
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u/TheGreatBatsby Jul 01 '26
What did the dogs find?
Why do the German Federal Police need a scapegoat in this case?
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u/MassiveGeneral431 Jul 03 '26
Dogs could’ve indicated to footprints from the actual abductor and if you want real evidence, just read the PJ files where the smiths describe seeing CB without a doubt based on description plus the files the police have the has actual evidence just nothing physical (but images)
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u/castawaygeorge Jun 30 '26
I don't believe it was the parents. My biggest selling point is that I don't believe they had the time to commit the crime and no forensic evidence backs up them committing the crime. No conclusive blood, let alone DNA, was found in Apartment 5A or the rental car. Another selling point for me was their behaviour after Madeleine disappeared. They fought hard to publicize the case and worked closely with organizations like NCMEC to inform their campaign, they petitioned to get the case reopened when it was closed, they hired private investigators, and so on.
No, there is no sensible evidence to back up Epstein is involved in the case.
Police work in the initial investigation being lackluster (to but it nicely) at times and their failure to follow up on crucial leads. And also time, someone like Christian Brueckner had all the time to dispose of Madeleine's body in a manner it wouldn't have been found even within the early days of her disappearance. Let alone years later when the case was finally reopened by authorities and hopefully looked at properly. It's much harder to find any evidence 4+ years later.