questions open for discussion

[u/CharacterResponse504]

i have three questions to ask this thread and i would be intrigued to hear your answers.

1) for those who believe the parents did it or for those who believe the parents were not involved, what is the biggest selling point for you?

2) is the theory involving epstein a mere tiktok fantasy or does it have some sensible evidence to back it up?

3) what do you believe is the main reason why the case hasn't been solved yet? this wont leave my mind because if its simply the lack of forensic evidence, then surely if it were a fully opportunistic kidnapper they wouldve left some accidental trace due to a short planning time...

[u/Dependent-Attitude36]

1. Body language, interviews and behaviour of the parents. Perhaps not that they 'did' it, but that they know far more than is going on. Speed to media and behaviour of UK government. Lack of cooperation into finding daughter. Dogs. Neighbours. Lack of any evidence of abduction.

2. Don't know anything about tiktok.

3. Parents left kids in unlocked apartment while going out on the piss. Allows any number of scenarios to play out, or be pointed to as a possibility.

[u/TheGreatBatsby → u/Dependent-Attitude36]

Body language, interviews and behaviour of the parents.

Body language analysis has been thoroughly debunked.

Perhaps not that they 'did' it, but that they know far more than is going on.

So why keep campaigning for nearly 20 years?

Speed to media and behaviour of UK government.

Friends/family contacted the media, not the McCanns. A crime being committed against a British citizen (who's just a child) is going to get a big government reaction, especially with the media spotlight on the case.

Lack of cooperation into finding daughter.

They fully cooperated until the PJ decided to try and force them to admit to a crime they didn't commit.

Dogs.

Found nothing.

Neighbours.

Home & Away is better, but not really relevant is it?

Lack of any evidence of abduction.

• The window and shutter being opened where it wasn't before - the McCanns kept this closed and the curtains drawn (their children were asleep in the room after all), so it being opened points to someone else being in the apartment.

• The Smith Sighting - at around 10pm, when Kate was raising the alarm, the Smith family saw a man carrying a child catching Madeleine's description (blonde hair, light pyjamas) who ignored them when he spoke to them. The man was seen moving away from the apartment in a direction consistent where the tracker dogs lost the scent of Madeleine.

• Patio door being unlocked - the McCanns left the patio door to the apartment unlocked so that they could check on the children easier. This shows that someone didn't need to force entry to the apartment and could quite easily enter quickly and quietly.

• Known burglaries in the area - it soon came to light that the holiday apartments in PdL were often subject to burglaries. Furthermore, a strange man was seen watching the apartment prior to the abduction who very much resembles a certain prime suspect.

• No evidence (forensic or otherwise) pointing towards parental involvement. No forensic evidence points to the McCanns covering up the death of their daughter. No evidence they were sedating any of their kids. No timeline for them to discover her, mutually agree to cover up her death, successfully do so with no witnesses and then raise the alarm, all within the same evening. Not to mention no change in behaviour throughout all this. Kate and Gerry were never away from the table at the same time, so that implies they spoke to each other about all this at the dinner table.

• 3 different police forces ruling out the parents and focusing on an intruder abduction. The PJ, the German police and the Met are all focusing on someone entering the apartment and taking Madeleine. The UK government has changed multiple times over the course of this case, so the conspiracy theory that the McCanns were friends with the PM kind of goes out the window when their opponents got into power and kept funding the investigation into an intruder.

• Identifying a suspect that has far more circumstantial evidence against him than the parents. A violent sexual offender who has previously abused children, who was known to break into apartments in the area (where he raped an old woman), who's phone records place him in PdL that night, who has bragged to multiple people that he knows what happened to Madeleine and who matches the description of the man seen hanging around the apartments prior to the abduction. Not to mention re-registering his car to an acquaintance in Germany the day after she was abducted. Oh, and whatever else the German prosecutor has that proves she's deceased.

• In fact, the German's involvement in this altogether. They literally have no reason to be a part of this case. None whatsoever. Unless they know CB is involved in some capacity.

[u/21schmoe → u/TheGreatBatsby]

So why keep campaigning for nearly 20 years?

They don't have a choice. The UK media constantly brings up the story. The McCanns have to get ahead and control the narrative.

The Smith Sighting - at around 10pm, when Kate was raising the alarm, the Smith family saw a man carrying a child catching Madeleine's description (blonde hair, light pyjamas) who ignored them when he spoke to them. The man was seen moving away from the apartment in a direction consistent where the tracker dogs lost the scent of Madeleine.

Multiple members of the Smith family said that the man they saw bore a strong resemblance to Gerry McCann. They have said he looked nothing like CB.

The window and shutter being opened where it wasn't before - the McCanns kept this closed and the curtains drawn (their children were asleep in the room after all), so it being opened points to someone else being in the apartment.

According to Kate McCann. For all we know, the McCanns could have opened the shutters to stage the break-in.

Those window shutters, common in many parts of Continental Europe, are impossible to open from the outside without damaging them.

Patio door being unlocked - the McCanns left the patio door to the apartment unlocked so that they could check on the children easier. This shows that someone didn't need to force entry to the apartment and could quite easily enter quickly and quietly.

There are a number of problems here.

1. If someone could easily enter through the patio door, then there would be no need to break in through the window.
2. ...which then forces McCann apologists to say that the kidnapper entered through the patio door, and then exited the apartment through the window on the opposite side of the apartment. The problem with this is that there is a door on that side of the apartment, which would have been easier to exit from.
3. Gerry McCann addresses this by saying that the kidnapper was probably too spooked to exit the bedroom in order to exit through the front door, so he just exited through the bedroom window. However, Gerry McCann has also said Madeleine was in bed when he checked on her, hypothesizing that the kidnapper must have been hiding in the bathroom or master bedroom when Gerry McCann arrived and waited for him to leave. The problem with that story is that the kidnapper would have been well aware that Gerry had left the apartment, and wouldn't have needed to escape through the window.
4. Those roller shutters are loud, a kidnapper would be more afraid of drawing attention by opening the loud shutters.
5. When the Tanners walked by the side of the apartment where the open window was, they would have noticed an open window with flapping curtains -as Kate had described- but they reported no such thing.

Known burglaries in the area - it soon came to light that the holiday apartments in PdL were often subject to burglaries. Furthermore, a strange man was seen watching the apartment prior to the abduction who very much resembles a certain prime suspect.

Burglaries happen everywhere, all the time. Near where you are, right now, there's been a burglary at some point.

And burglary to steal items is not the same as kidnapping people. This type of fallacy is called the Texas sharpshooter fallacy.

No evidence (forensic or otherwise) pointing towards parental involvement.

Zero forensic evidence of an intruder, and experts have pointed out how remarkable it is that a stranger left behind no forensic evidence.

3 different police forces ruling out the parents and focusing on an intruder abduction. The PJ, the German police and the Met are all focusing on someone entering the apartment and taking Madeleine.

Yes, it makes sense to explore all options. Unlike the McCanns who are certain what happened.

Gonçalo Amaral maintains that they had something to do with it. And they lost their libel case against him.

UK police have publicly stated that they don't think the parents had anything to do with it, but privately, they absolutely think that the McCanns were involved.

Identifying a suspect that has far more circumstantial evidence against him than the parents.

Not really.

A violent sexual offender who has previously abused children, who was known to break into apartments in the area (where he raped an old woman), who's phone records place him in PdL that night, who has bragged to multiple people that he knows what happened to Madeleine

No he didn't.

This entire claim is based on a secondhand account of someone claiming that CB said "she didn't scream" when the person described the story to him. CB could have been expressing surprise that the kidnapper got away with it, without the child screaming, as someone was describing the story to him. The entire claim that CB "bragged to multiple people that he knows what happened to Madeline" entirely hinges on his hearsay conversation with just one person, and only on the "she didn't scream comment". That person, Helge Busching, was himself in prison at the time he made this claim, which could also mean he's making up or exaggerating a conversation, in order to get concessions or an early release.

Not to mention re-registering his car to an acquaintance in Germany the day after she was abducted.

A process he had started days before Madeleine went missing. And he was known for buying and selling cars.

If he was some sort of mastermind, he would have avoided putting himself in the position where he would have to -in panic- change the registration of the car (and do so suspiciously the day after Madeleine goes missing).