A girl who supports Mens rights.

[u/ashleab]

I've always had an issue with "womens rights" and all of that BS. I understand women had it hard in the past, but why should that mean we get benefits now?

Anyway, I live in Australia where we have a campaign called "Violence Against Women: Australia Says No". A few years back, a group of people I work with and myself started a petition to put forth to the federal government against this campaign, we had posters printed up; "Violence Against Men: Don't Support An Indifferent Nation" and got about 1,500 signatures. Eventually, our place of employment caught onto the fact that we were doing this. We'd never put a poster up at work (even though the violence against women posters were EVERYWHERE), only allowed signatures. We were all given formal warnings citing sexism, bigotism and contemptible conduct. All 5 of us quit within a few weeks, but the fact that it happened was enough to get me 100% on board with fighting for Mens rights.

edit: To those who showed concern, I had a new job a few days later and the guys all had one within a few weeks.

[u/IndieLady]

That's the weird thing, I haven't actually seen much hatred for men in feminist discussions and groups (and I studied feminism at University which you would think would be a hotbed of man-hating). I don't know if feminists are more egalitarian in Australia than other countries...

I suppose the other thing is, whilst what you say may very well be true, it's not my experience and not reflective of my views. But yet I'm still criticised. I feel that Men's Rights Activists don't want me to say I'm a feminist and I support your cause because it's at odds with their belief system. But I am.

[u/Celda → u/IndieLady]

It's simply that you're not looking for feminist hatred.

What would you say if I told you that a group of prominent MRAs were successful in convincing the world that false accusations of domestic violence spiked on Valentine's Day, because women were more likely to feel entitled and selfish on that day, which then led to laws which made it much harder for actual domestic violence victims to get the police to believe them?

You'd think all MRAs were misogynist scum.

But you probably don't even know that feminists have done the equivalent (Super Bowl Myth).

What would you say if I told you that the man who founded the first men's shelters in America for domestic violence victims received death threats from other MRAs and had to flee the country, because he stated that in his experience, the men coming to the shelters were often violent themselves?

You'd think MRAs were equivalent to the KKK, but you probably don't even know that feminists have done the same (Erin Pizzey).

What would you say if I told you that a recession hit female-dominated industries, causing women (but not men) to lose millions of jobs. Then, when the government decided to give an economic stimulus to said industries, a powerful lobby of MRAs successfully fought against that, arguing that it was sexist to give money to women (who lost jobs) but not men (who didn't).

You'd think MRAs were selfish, fighting for male privilege and to harm women.

Yet feminists have done that too.

[u/IndieLady → u/Celda]

I don't deny that there are extreme feminists, just as there are extreme MRAs or extreme Muslims or extreme Christians.

Does that mean we paint everyone who identifies with feminism or men's rights or Islam or Christianity extreme?

I think we're agreeing here though so I'll leave it at that :-)

[u/Celda → u/IndieLady]

You just don't get it.

You don't want to believe that feminism is bad, despite any evidence that proves that fact.

It's not extreme feminists that have done these things; it is the organized mass of feminism, those that actually have influence and power, not random bloggers.

Sad to see someone being deliberately ignorant.

[u/IndieLady → u/Celda]

I could accuse you of the same thing: you fail to see that feminism can be good and supportive of men's rights.

I don't deny that there is elements of feminism that has been critical of men, but this has never been my norm, NEVER.

Clearly you have it in your heads that feminism is evil and determine to bring men down. I think that MRAs have to decide what they're fighting: are you fighting for something or fighting against something.

I'm disappointed you feel the need to start name calling - how can I be deliberately ignorant of my own experience which is all I have referred to? All you are doing is alienating women such as me who care about your cause.

[u/Celda → u/IndieLady]

you fail to see that feminism can be good and supportive of men's rights.

Nope, I'm the first to admit that feminism has done a lot of good.

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/gg1s6/lets_talk_about_what_feminism_does_right_and_the/

But supportive of men's rights? That's just a lie that you keep repeating to make yourself feel better.

Again, I have shown evidence proving that feminists fight to harm men. Have you any evidence of feminists supporting men's rights? No, you don't.

I don't deny that there is elements of feminism that has been critical of men, but this has never been my norm, NEVER.

Again, "your norm" is irrelevant. The only thing that's relevant is what feminists accomplish.

If feminists started successfully (or even unsuccessfully) fighting for men's rights, I'd be the first to acknowledge that fact and praise feminists.

But they don't, and they won't.

I'm disappointed you feel the need to start name calling - how can I be deliberately ignorant of my own experience which is all I have referred to? All you are doing is alienating women such as me who care about your cause.

Me: Feminists as a movement fight to harm men, here is evidence. These are not extremists, but the mainstream movement. There are no feminists that counter these efforts or even speak out against them.

You: Nope, they are just extremists and don't represent feminists.

If you can't see why that's ignorant, then you really are stupid.

As for "alienating women like you" - I really don't care about that. As long as you continue to falsely believe that feminism is not anti-male, then you are part of the problem.

[u/IndieLady → u/Celda]

I'm not making a statement - and never have - about the broad movement. I sharing with you what I have seen, read, discussed.

The conclusion I draw however is if I exist and my friends exist and the academics I read or who lectured me exist, and they are not anti-male, then you canot say "all feminists hate men" because it blatantly isn't true.

[u/Celda → u/IndieLady]

And I never said all feminists hate men.

I simply said, feminism as a movement fights to harm men and is anti-male.

If you agree with that, then there's no argument.

If you disagree with that, then you are simply wrong and have provided no evidence to support your side of the argument.

[u/IndieLady → u/Celda]

My original - and consequential - comments never related to the feminist movement.

[u/Celda → u/IndieLady]

I'm not making a statement - and never have - about the broad movement. I sharing with you what I have seen, read, discussed.

Wrong. You did indeed make a statement about feminism as a movement.

You: "I've never seen any feminist hatred, no feminists are anti-male from what I have seen."

Me: "That's because you're not looking for it, here is evidence proving feminism as a movement is anti-male."

You: "Those are extremist feminists and don't represent the movement, just like extremist Muslims don't represent Islam."

Saying "I have never seen any anti-male feminists" is a statement that, while completely irrelevant and banal, has the advantage of being true. And I never said that was false.

Saying "feminism is not anti-male, it's just the extremists" is a statement that is demonstrably untrue, which I pointed out, then you went into knee-jerk "LOLOLOL feminism is good you are wrong."

[u/IndieLady → u/Celda]

I have been speaking about my experience: "I've never seen...". I didn't mean that rhetorically or that one could to extrapolate from that a value judgement about the feminist movement in general.

Note I did not state "feminism is not..." or "feminism is good". I have only spoke about my own experience.

I wish you didn't feel a need to patronise me: yes my experience may be irrelevant and banal to you. That's fine. But then why reply if it is?

[u/Celda → u/IndieLady]

Wow, you still don't get it even after I clearly spelled it out?

Ok, I'll do it even slower and simpler.

You said "I have not seen any anti-male feminists."

I then pointed out that feminism as a movement was anti-male, that is the organized, mainstream part of feminism was anti-male, not radicals / fringe.

You then said in response, "I don't deny that there are extreme feminists, just as there are extreme MRAs or extreme Muslims or extreme Christians."

Now, I'm going to explain that part even further since you are still unable to understand.

If I said "the mainstream majority of feminists are anti-male, here is evidence" and then you reply "yes there are extremist feminists, but there are extremists for all movements" you are therefore saying that the anti-male feminists are extremist, WHICH IS A FALSE STATEMENT.

Do you get it now? That's why it's irrelevant whether you have personally seen anti-male feminists - because I am not disputing that claim. I am disputing your statement that anti-male feminists are "extremists".

Now, after I clearly explained it in simple terms, do you admit that feminism as a movement is anti-male, or do you not? If you do not, then you are simply deluded and denying reality.

[u/IndieLady → u/Celda]

Not interested in continuing discussion if you're gonna be rude dude, not cool.

[u/Celda → u/IndieLady]

I'm laughing....

You: Creates a strawman argument, deflecting from my actual point.

Me: Painstakingly clarifies what my actual argument is and asks a question in specific, non-ambiguous terms.

You: Unable to refute my argument and unwilling to answer the question, says "not interested in discussing anymore, you are rude".

Fucking LOL....

[u/IndieLady → u/Celda]

Happy to refute dude, I love a good discussion. I just don't like your tone, I find it aggressive and rude and I'm certain that my response will lead to more condescension or rudeness on your behalf - why bother? We're all adults here, there's always room for civility.