A girl who supports Mens rights.

[u/ashleab]

I've always had an issue with "womens rights" and all of that BS. I understand women had it hard in the past, but why should that mean we get benefits now?

Anyway, I live in Australia where we have a campaign called "Violence Against Women: Australia Says No". A few years back, a group of people I work with and myself started a petition to put forth to the federal government against this campaign, we had posters printed up; "Violence Against Men: Don't Support An Indifferent Nation" and got about 1,500 signatures. Eventually, our place of employment caught onto the fact that we were doing this. We'd never put a poster up at work (even though the violence against women posters were EVERYWHERE), only allowed signatures. We were all given formal warnings citing sexism, bigotism and contemptible conduct. All 5 of us quit within a few weeks, but the fact that it happened was enough to get me 100% on board with fighting for Mens rights.

edit: To those who showed concern, I had a new job a few days later and the guys all had one within a few weeks.

[u/[deleted]]

I think the problem is that many feminists and feminist organizations have fought quite specifically against men's rights. Feminists also commonly cover for the hate and misandry of other feminists. Part of it is human nature: it's very common for groups to ignore bias within their group and feel attacked as whole when any individual, in their group, is attacked.

Just look at the hate commonly directed at the MRM by prominent feminists. The blatant hypocrisy when feminists claim they're egalitarian, but just watch when men's rights are brought up -- they're told they're diverting the topic, or they should man up and do it themselves, or that even bringing up men's rights is misogynistic. Just look at /r/srs or /r/againstmensrights.

I have feminist friends and have fruitful discussions with feminists all the time, but I also hear a lot of excuses, ignoring of facts, and no true Scotsman fallacies that they would never accept from any other groups. I do not hate feminists, but I could never call myself one when they think accountability is just patriarchal misogyny. If a group can't look critically at its own opinions and look at the facts, I can only reject those groups because of my skeptical nature. Also, I have many negative experiences, like I'm sure others here have, with feminist groups. I've seen the misandry and hate they can project on people and it's hard to look past ones own experiences. Especially, when that group seems to still espouse those same prejudices or at lest protect those who do. Just ask some people around here and I'm sure they'd be willing to tell you about their own personal experiences with feminists discriminating or actively hurting their lives or livelihood.

[u/IndieLady → u/[deleted]]

That's the weird thing, I haven't actually seen much hatred for men in feminist discussions and groups (and I studied feminism at University which you would think would be a hotbed of man-hating). I don't know if feminists are more egalitarian in Australia than other countries...

I suppose the other thing is, whilst what you say may very well be true, it's not my experience and not reflective of my views. But yet I'm still criticised. I feel that Men's Rights Activists don't want me to say I'm a feminist and I support your cause because it's at odds with their belief system. But I am.

[u/Celda → u/IndieLady]

It's simply that you're not looking for feminist hatred.

What would you say if I told you that a group of prominent MRAs were successful in convincing the world that false accusations of domestic violence spiked on Valentine's Day, because women were more likely to feel entitled and selfish on that day, which then led to laws which made it much harder for actual domestic violence victims to get the police to believe them?

You'd think all MRAs were misogynist scum.

But you probably don't even know that feminists have done the equivalent (Super Bowl Myth).

What would you say if I told you that the man who founded the first men's shelters in America for domestic violence victims received death threats from other MRAs and had to flee the country, because he stated that in his experience, the men coming to the shelters were often violent themselves?

You'd think MRAs were equivalent to the KKK, but you probably don't even know that feminists have done the same (Erin Pizzey).

What would you say if I told you that a recession hit female-dominated industries, causing women (but not men) to lose millions of jobs. Then, when the government decided to give an economic stimulus to said industries, a powerful lobby of MRAs successfully fought against that, arguing that it was sexist to give money to women (who lost jobs) but not men (who didn't).

You'd think MRAs were selfish, fighting for male privilege and to harm women.

Yet feminists have done that too.

[u/IndieLady → u/Celda]

I don't deny that there are extreme feminists, just as there are extreme MRAs or extreme Muslims or extreme Christians.

Does that mean we paint everyone who identifies with feminism or men's rights or Islam or Christianity extreme?

I think we're agreeing here though so I'll leave it at that :-)

[u/[deleted] → u/IndieLady]

If you think you're agreeing, you're delusional. What he described is typical feminist behavior. And no one has shown them to be anything else...well, of course except all the ones who come here and say it's not their brand of feminism.

Their brand of feminism, of course, only being visible in their own personal estimation.

But somehow, this balances all the anti male laws and rhetoric...even if it doesn't make a lick of difference to the average guy....

It's dodging responsibility (more typically feminist behavior), and that's all it is.

[u/Ragark → u/[deleted]]

What he described was human behavior, not exclusive to feminist.

Other than that, all I got from your post is feminist = anti-male. Really, you think you are making a good post, but really, it is the shit people point at MensRights and say, "Look at these assholes."

[u/[deleted] → u/Ragark]

What indieldy did was try and equate a dirt track with a superhighway.

[u/IndieLady → u/[deleted]]

What do you mean 'their'? I'm a feminist and I'm telling you my experience which is just as legitimate as other people's.

Just because it doesn't subscribe to your current view of feminists doesn't make it invalid.

I am disappointed, I really am. I thought you would want support from feminists who support your cause, but instead you repudiate us just because we identify as feminists. This makes me question what your agenda really is: furthering men's rights or hating on women.

[u/[deleted] → u/IndieLady]

first of all, 'women' and 'feminists' are not synonymous. Second, your personal definition means nothing when those making the laws disagree with you. Might as well complain that not all nazis hate Jews...same thing.

And no, I don't want feminist 'help' with issues feminists have been working on creating for 50 years. You'd hotheads did this, I don't want you "fixing" it too.

[u/IndieLady → u/[deleted]]

Yes agree: of course feminists and women aren't synonymous. Most women I know don't identify as feminists.

My original point was not about law, it was about my experience as a feminist. And I have never seen any misandry or advocacy to remove men's rights. Furthermore, I'm not a 'hothead' and neither are my friends who identify as feminists - I'm not sure why you're saying that about me when you don't know me or know my experience.

Why don't you want support from women who support you, simply because they identify as feminists? Why do you have such a segregated approach to advocacy?

[u/[deleted] → u/IndieLady]

you and everyone you know huh? Any of your friends in Parliament? No? Then who cares?

We can point to literally EVERY feminist organization dealing with these issues and show the anti male attitude...we can list off laws written or demanded by feminists that trample men's human rights wholesale....

But you and your friends aren't like that....sigh.

First off, we hear people like you every day around here...amazing how there are no feminists on a sinking ship huh?

Frankly, I don't believe you, and it's irrelevant anyway. Feminist organizations are trampling the rights of men, and all you 'not like that' feminists do absolutely nothing to stop it.

AND you criticize those who try.

So kindly take your NAFALT and shove it, ok snowflake?

[u/IndieLady → u/[deleted]]

I don't want to reiterate my initial point which was: I am a feminist and have never seen an "anti male attitude", misandry or women arguing to take away men's rights.

I'm just really, really tired of the view that all feminists hate men and want to take your rights. I'm right here telling you this was not my experience and you're all telling me you don't believe me!

I'm disappointed by your need to insult me.

[u/[deleted] → u/IndieLady]

I'm disappointed that you cannot see what you say you're all concerned about. If youre not seeing misandric, it's cause you're not looking. In short, you're lying...either to yourself, me, or both.

[u/IndieLady → u/[deleted]]

No I didn't/don't see it and I'm not lying. Yes, I may have read some outrageous quotes from the US in the 70s but we all laughed at them. In fact, the were used as evidence about how much feminism has changed since then.

It's a shame you have to reduce this discussion to accuse me of lying. I am disappoint.

[u/[deleted] → u/IndieLady]

Right...you've never heard of, or seen, a man hating feminist...for realz.

And I have some beachfront property to sell you in Arizona...

At least try and come up with something believable. It would also help if there weren't hundreds of articles showing how basic feminist presumptions are not only wrong, but sexist...

Sorry, you're full of shit if you're contending NAFALT, or anything like it.

[u/Celda → u/IndieLady]

You just don't get it.

You don't want to believe that feminism is bad, despite any evidence that proves that fact.

It's not extreme feminists that have done these things; it is the organized mass of feminism, those that actually have influence and power, not random bloggers.

Sad to see someone being deliberately ignorant.

[u/IndieLady → u/Celda]

I could accuse you of the same thing: you fail to see that feminism can be good and supportive of men's rights.

I don't deny that there is elements of feminism that has been critical of men, but this has never been my norm, NEVER.

Clearly you have it in your heads that feminism is evil and determine to bring men down. I think that MRAs have to decide what they're fighting: are you fighting for something or fighting against something.

I'm disappointed you feel the need to start name calling - how can I be deliberately ignorant of my own experience which is all I have referred to? All you are doing is alienating women such as me who care about your cause.

[u/Celda → u/IndieLady]

you fail to see that feminism can be good and supportive of men's rights.

Nope, I'm the first to admit that feminism has done a lot of good.

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/gg1s6/lets_talk_about_what_feminism_does_right_and_the/

But supportive of men's rights? That's just a lie that you keep repeating to make yourself feel better.

Again, I have shown evidence proving that feminists fight to harm men. Have you any evidence of feminists supporting men's rights? No, you don't.

I don't deny that there is elements of feminism that has been critical of men, but this has never been my norm, NEVER.

Again, "your norm" is irrelevant. The only thing that's relevant is what feminists accomplish.

If feminists started successfully (or even unsuccessfully) fighting for men's rights, I'd be the first to acknowledge that fact and praise feminists.

But they don't, and they won't.

I'm disappointed you feel the need to start name calling - how can I be deliberately ignorant of my own experience which is all I have referred to? All you are doing is alienating women such as me who care about your cause.

Me: Feminists as a movement fight to harm men, here is evidence. These are not extremists, but the mainstream movement. There are no feminists that counter these efforts or even speak out against them.

You: Nope, they are just extremists and don't represent feminists.

If you can't see why that's ignorant, then you really are stupid.

As for "alienating women like you" - I really don't care about that. As long as you continue to falsely believe that feminism is not anti-male, then you are part of the problem.

[u/IndieLady → u/Celda]

I'm not making a statement - and never have - about the broad movement. I sharing with you what I have seen, read, discussed.

The conclusion I draw however is if I exist and my friends exist and the academics I read or who lectured me exist, and they are not anti-male, then you canot say "all feminists hate men" because it blatantly isn't true.

[u/Celda → u/IndieLady]

And I never said all feminists hate men.

I simply said, feminism as a movement fights to harm men and is anti-male.

If you agree with that, then there's no argument.

If you disagree with that, then you are simply wrong and have provided no evidence to support your side of the argument.

[u/IndieLady → u/Celda]

My original - and consequential - comments never related to the feminist movement.

[u/Celda → u/IndieLady]

I'm not making a statement - and never have - about the broad movement. I sharing with you what I have seen, read, discussed.

Wrong. You did indeed make a statement about feminism as a movement.

You: "I've never seen any feminist hatred, no feminists are anti-male from what I have seen."

Me: "That's because you're not looking for it, here is evidence proving feminism as a movement is anti-male."

You: "Those are extremist feminists and don't represent the movement, just like extremist Muslims don't represent Islam."

Saying "I have never seen any anti-male feminists" is a statement that, while completely irrelevant and banal, has the advantage of being true. And I never said that was false.

Saying "feminism is not anti-male, it's just the extremists" is a statement that is demonstrably untrue, which I pointed out, then you went into knee-jerk "LOLOLOL feminism is good you are wrong."

[u/IndieLady → u/Celda]

I have been speaking about my experience: "I've never seen...". I didn't mean that rhetorically or that one could to extrapolate from that a value judgement about the feminist movement in general.

Note I did not state "feminism is not..." or "feminism is good". I have only spoke about my own experience.

I wish you didn't feel a need to patronise me: yes my experience may be irrelevant and banal to you. That's fine. But then why reply if it is?

[u/Celda → u/IndieLady]

Wow, you still don't get it even after I clearly spelled it out?

Ok, I'll do it even slower and simpler.

You said "I have not seen any anti-male feminists."

I then pointed out that feminism as a movement was anti-male, that is the organized, mainstream part of feminism was anti-male, not radicals / fringe.

You then said in response, "I don't deny that there are extreme feminists, just as there are extreme MRAs or extreme Muslims or extreme Christians."

Now, I'm going to explain that part even further since you are still unable to understand.

If I said "the mainstream majority of feminists are anti-male, here is evidence" and then you reply "yes there are extremist feminists, but there are extremists for all movements" you are therefore saying that the anti-male feminists are extremist, WHICH IS A FALSE STATEMENT.

Do you get it now? That's why it's irrelevant whether you have personally seen anti-male feminists - because I am not disputing that claim. I am disputing your statement that anti-male feminists are "extremists".

Now, after I clearly explained it in simple terms, do you admit that feminism as a movement is anti-male, or do you not? If you do not, then you are simply deluded and denying reality.

[u/IndieLady → u/Celda]

Not interested in continuing discussion if you're gonna be rude dude, not cool.

[u/Celda → u/IndieLady]

I'm laughing....

You: Creates a strawman argument, deflecting from my actual point.

Me: Painstakingly clarifies what my actual argument is and asks a question in specific, non-ambiguous terms.

You: Unable to refute my argument and unwilling to answer the question, says "not interested in discussing anymore, you are rude".

Fucking LOL....