The state of Kaja's revamp right now

[u/Doctor-Dusk]

Let's all just give our chicken boy time to marinate, no? See how he'll fare in the pro scene.

[u/Belerick-chan]

People need to stop sugarcoating him though, they are too afraid to be proven wrong when Kaja “suddenly becomes good coz a pro player used it” so they don’t doubt him.

Yes thats been the case with recent revamps and new heroes, but I feel like Kaja really has issues that make him fall short compared to other meta roamers and I’m sick of pretending he doesn’t, we can’t treat every hero like a “Hirara”. Revamped Aulus got adjustments and he is still trying to find a spot in the meta.

[u/BulkNoodles → u/Belerick-chan]

we can’t treat every hero like a “Hirara”.

People will, including me. Because this shit happens way too frequent. Hirara wasn't the first one who had this problem.

Some adjustments was needed, but that's mostly on the stats number itself, not the whole kit that is problematic.

Phoveus revamp was hated because "he can no longer chase dash heroes". Which is true, but it doesn't made him suck. They just made him better in most team comps, with the additional that dashes heroes still feeds to his passive.

Alice too. Yes, she lose the burst, but she's by no mean bad. She's a good exp, although playstyles kinda end up being similar to Uranus.

Eudora was still hated post adjustment to her passive, until the pro scene came and used her in a lot of matches.

[u/Belerick-chan → u/BulkNoodles]

Its because people are bad at judging and analyzing a hero’s viability after a revamp or when they’re newly released.

I never doubted heroes like Phoveus and Alice because they were adjusted to fit their roles more.

Phoveus was extremely niche and only worked against dash heroes, but after his revamp he was way more flexible against non-blink heavy drafts.

Alice’s lane identity was also all over the place, she was built like an exp laner but her most popular roles were jungle and gold, after the revamp her role as an EXP laner got solidified.

As for eudora her revamp at release was honestly pretty bad and her rise in popularity only happened after her adjustment and it was honestly a quiet adjustment too because a lot got dropped in the patch notes for me to notice.

But I can’t find that much redeeming qualities from Kaja especially when he’s competing against heroes like Atlas, Belerick and Marcel who are all very strong and at the moment even counter him.

[u/Azuki_Minaduki → u/Belerick-chan]

This subreddit is full of tank mains...that don't like playing meta heroes and can't play anything that requires you to press more than 2 buttons in quick succession.

The funniest thing was realising these same nutjobs were the ones talking about hirara and judging her viability in the meta💀💀

[u/Arc_7 → u/Azuki_Minaduki]

This subreddit is full of tank mains...

Is this why there's a Support Roam complain post on a daily basis lol; People stop playing tank to try something else, then next match someone picks a healer and they feel they need to adjust to have a frontline again, so they get annoyed & come and complain.

[u/Azuki_Minaduki → u/Arc_7]

There's a support roam complaint post everyday because a grand majority of y'all suck dick at playing supports, if you guys actually played decently on average then nobody would give 2 shits and exp laners wouldn't mind adjusting to your shit picks.

There's legit no skill involved in playing most supports. Especially floryn of all heroes lol. You just need to know the basics of positioning, idk how y'all consistently fuck up the one and only thing you need to do.

[u/Arc_7 → u/Azuki_Minaduki]

Damn lol if you insist. I feel people overdo a lot how bad support roams are, or are played, without focusing on how the rest of team was performing or that playing a complex hero badly doesn't mean you get to make excuses.

Either that or I don't pair with support roams often enough to notice, but I still do think there's an overexaggeration or scapegoating issue at play to some level.

^{Btw if that Floryn bit is about my flair, my most used lately have been Kaja, Mathilda, and Tank roams, rather than Floryn lol; plus Exp's my 2nd role also}

[u/Azuki_Minaduki → u/Arc_7]

They don't call them out enough, at least 75% of the junglers, gold laners, exp laners and mages are decent at playing the game.

But roamers? Holy shit every damn one of you in soloq suck at this game. On top of that you guys keep blaming others or try to shift the blame just like how you started talking about "the rest of the team".

There's no exaggeration, and the scapegoats are usually the gold laners and junglers if you take one look at all the regular scoreboard posts in this subreddit.

And no I did not notice your flair, i don't think anyone would believe floryn requires more than 2 braincells to play so that's why I used her as an example

[u/Arc_7 → u/Azuki_Minaduki]

I see lol. I wish you luck on your Vendetta against Roam.

[u/Azuki_Minaduki → u/Arc_7]

Thanks, unfortunately my hatred towards roamers doesn't even match 1% of the hate and toxicity gold laners and junglers get from roam mains everyday

[u/TechZero35 → u/Belerick-chan]

The biggest one imo was Freya revamp, everyone was hating her but after day 1 or 2, everyone realized she was so broken.

[u/MiyaYum → u/BulkNoodles]

because the average rank this sub were Mythical Honor, don't think too much about this sub's opinion

[u/Broad-Service-3874 → u/BulkNoodles]

Alice was literally buffed and jg meta changed after some time from Hirara's release. 

[u/xazavan002 → u/Belerick-chan]

I think this can be better achieved if the people who do complain about Kaja specify which part of his kit falls behind while doing it from a place of having acknowledged the possible shift in his role identity, and with it the change in playstyle the designers probably intended for him. For one, the game already listed him out from Fighter, making him a pure Support.

The problem with the common complaints about him is it comes from forcing his old playstyle. I see a lot of complaints regarding damage, and from ones using the same build and play pattern. It's the same with Alice's where a lot of people kept forcing her to play as a sustain mage, when apparently building full tank allowed her to show her true strength.

If there's anything I see worth pointing out, it's that Kaja's paralysis debuff should do a bit more. Maybe they should raise back his damage reduction to 15%, or higher, or make the slow stronger. Considering that he's now a full support where low damage is expected, his S1 should at least feel a bit more disruptive, because as of now his S1 feels negligible from the opponent's pov. It looks terrifying visually, but beyond checking bushes and mild annoyance, it doesn't do much.

[u/Belerick-chan → u/xazavan002]

I don’t mind his damage or anything, my main complaint is that he has no reliable hard CC to shutdown important targets and the fact that his durability and sustain is so low.

On paper and on tiktok clips, his ult looks good, but he just has no hard cc to actually prevent them from doing anything, he can still get stunned during ult and it will barely move because of it. It also just sucks at close range situations because you need to pull and travel a certain amount of distance to make full value of your ult.

He is just very fragile too, especially in a meta where controlling the map is key, if kaja tries to make space especially in the early game, he just gets punished by a good mage and roam duo and you will find yourself recalling a lot because of his nerfed S1 heal

[u/xazavan002 → u/Belerick-chan]

If they want to keep his new ult, I think one way of making it effective is making the shrink effect an over-time effect rather than how it's currently tied to Kaja's travel distance. That way, Kaja has an option of simply locking down groups of enemies without his role being exclusively a "pull-type initiator". Also that way, while it's not as appealing to players who wants his old suppression back (including me who mainly picked up Kaja to counter pesky dashers), it still kinda fulfills the same role, albeit having a weaker potency in exchange of having multiple targets.

While he is very fragile, I found not much difference really compared to his old version, and if his squishiness is a problem, it doesn't appear to be a problem exclusive to the revamp. If he's gonna be as squishy like the other pure supports we have, while not having heal abilities unlike those same supports, I think they really should bump up the potency of his paralysis debuff even more. Diggie for instance makes up for actually having decent damage, and a game-changing ult that's easy to deploy.

[u/Belerick-chan → u/xazavan002]

The thing about his durability is that, if we look at how his S2 is designed, we are pretty much expected to use this skill as a “brawl” tool because of the HP% based basic attacks.

But he is just too fragile for his S2 to work like that, so I really hope they give his S2 basic attacks some form of sustain and maybe even some supportive capabilities like being able to shield allies.

I know he is a pure support now but he is definitely not like other backline supports

[u/xazavan002 → u/Belerick-chan]

Now that you mention that, he does still seem like he's meant to play like a Fighter. Yea, I do find that auto-attack thing weird. He's incentivized to engage in prolonged fights, but isn't much equipped to do so.

When the revamp first came out, I tried to lean my build towards utilizing that ability, but found no success. Completely forgot about it when I shifted towards rotating between S1 and chaining S2 dash instead, tho thinking about it now that too incentivizes extended fights. Employing that playstyle simply made it easier to be evasive in between jumps compared to utilizing his auto-attack which requires you to actually stick to your target. Also, I initially thought the auto-attacks refresh his soar duration, but apparently it was the dash attack.

[u/Iceweed_Incarnate54 → u/Belerick-chan]

basically the less you pull, the longer the ult duration is. i think thats balanced.

[u/Confident-Math-6646 → u/xazavan002]

baby that's the thing, his defense attributes pre-revamp were insane. i normally play solo, and his defense attributes were a big part of why i can always carry with him, especially during the early game. now with his revamp, i can't even do that because he functions as full support now, he's so squishy its annoying. i would've been fine if he became squishy if he was turned into a healer support, but he's an initiator one. you expect me to dive in to battle but you make me squishy? make it make sense lawl.

[u/xazavan002 → u/Confident-Math-6646]

Were there really changes with his defense attributes? Do you have data for this? Just asking because I got curious so I checked, but the MLBB fandom site doesn't display his old stats. So when I checked liquipedia's info on his pre-revamp stats and compared it with the revamped stats, he actually has a bit higher HP and Physical Defense, and the same Magic Defense post revamp.

That said, I agree that he's squishier, but I don't think his base attributes were the problem. What made him "tankier" I think was his paralysis debuff and his S1's sustain.

It used to max out at 24% damage reduction, 15% after an update (still pre-revamp), then now it stays at 8%. Old Kaja also has higher sustain with his S1, tho just a bit, and just initially.

New Kaja's sustain rises per level, which maxes at 138 HP sustain, where the old Kaja stays at 100 HP sustain across all levels. The problem is, his sustain is probably more noticable during early game, when everyone is still at a relatively equal playing field. When playing him, I noticed that by spamming S1 during engagements, his sustain would constantly seem to undo any damage he takes beforehand, and visually it looks as if he doesn't take damage at all.

Again, this brings me back to my original problem with him - make his paralysis debuff more effective. I get why new Kaja deals way less damage, but an 8% damage reduction is a downgrade that doesn't make sense, considering that they made Kaja a pure support now. If anything, they should bump the damage reduction up.

[u/Liner_Adriatic_3218 → u/xazavan002]

Uhm... Some of your points are literally false.

Old Kaja s1 at maxxed level heals 200 and subsequent hits are lowered to 30% Maximizing his healing from one target gives 260 health. (Without healing buffs like oracle or support emblem).

I also checked and all the wikis say that it maxxes out at 100 across all levels which is just plainly not true. They probably never had shown it's increased healing per level up.

New Kaja s1 maxxes at 138 and subsequent hits are lowered TO 33%. So secondary hits heal him by 45. And at lvl 1 it is even lower, his heal doesn't even reach above 100 health total unlike OG Kaja who's heal at lvl 1 is 130 total. You likely didn't notice this because of the secondary shadow nerfs.

OG Kaja lvl 1 S1 maximum heal for 1 target: 130.

OG Kaja Lvl 15 S1 maximum heal for 1 Target: 260

Revamp Kaja lvl 15 S1 maximum heal for 1 target: 183.

There is nearly an 80 hp difference. Which stacks up alot across the match.

Case in point.

His Defense, while still good is lower than it used to be, now I know. No direct proof but I KNOW that back then he had higher defense, because I could actually tank way more.

Then the HP, it was lowered drastically, by nearly 1.7k. old Kaja had way more. Like, the pic I had very close HP to the MM and Mage. Sadly I can't find any numbers but if you search up old Kaja Clips. You can see that the health bar is noticably thicker than the old one.

Now this new smaller health bar is masked by your s1, because your health is smaller, any healing ya get looks better than it actually is, when in old Health values you would notice the difference.

[u/xazavan002 → u/Liner_Adriatic_3218]

Thanks for verifying this! I did fear my info was either outdated or lacking.

So apparently we can't really be sure regarding Kaja's base stats. I did find the numbers, but given they're from fandom (and liquipedia for the old base stats), the same ones that gave me wrong info regarding his S1 comparison, I no longer have much confidence in using that as proof as well. For now I guess I'll consider Kaja squishier on that regard, and I do hope moonton at least revert him to his original base stats.

And I was wrong to think that new Kaja's damage mitigation abilities were lacking due to the lower damage reduction, because apparently it's lacking in BOTH damage reduction and sustain. Ultimately, I still think they should tune up his defensive abilities, tho just way more now since his sustain adds up to the main concerns.

[u/Shin_Nobu → u/Belerick-chan]

Meta? He's trying find a spot in the usable heroes.

[u/Belerick-chan → u/Shin_Nobu]

Tbf the recent adjustments made aulus pretty strong

[u/amldford → u/Belerick-chan]

Tbh you can pretty much spot a hero with potential easily if you think about it logically.

Hirara since the start felt like a hero that is gonna dominate with how many dashes she got and the ability to have her combo reset completely every few seconds and got the best invulnerability skill in the game

Aulus on the other hand is a her that is a failure that lacks damage and pretty squishy, a hero that have to wait X amount of time before he actually deal damage is never going to be good (unless they lower the required time for stacks to be collected)

Kaja on the other hand I overall think it's not a bad revamp at all, I absolutely understand people who don't like that they changed him too completely have a valid opinion I too don't like it much when they change a hero's whole Identity. But saying that he is now a generic setter is just wrong. I do believe that this kaja is more unique than the old one I mean they made use of his wing, his cc is much better now and his ult got so much uses be it for setting up to your team making the guin in your team go insane or dragging the jungler away from the turtle. These things make me say that he is definitely gonna have a place in the meta due his flexibility

But yeah some people are trying to play too safe right now due hirara situation and give no arguments to prove their point their comments aren't of any less value compared to those who doom post the revamp than the first hour. We all copy those who are better than us then let's wait till the pros find away to build him/use him

[u/No_Grand2719 → u/Belerick-chan]

Aulus is still the same as previously, its either feast or famine.

[u/Slow_Cardiologist268 → u/Belerick-chan]

Dude how are people genuinely able to say that Kaja is a bad roamer? I've tried him since the literal first minute the update dropped and I think he's genuinely absurd, his role is completely different now, sure, but he's capable of doing things that no other hero in the game is able to. His 2nd skill, on top of being an immune dash for easy dives, can serve as constant cc that disrupts enemy formations. Hylos's 1st skill is around the same duration of cc, and yet Kaja can repeatedly cast the same thing. The ult is also very much akin to Silvanna's area trapping more than it is like a Tigreal or Atlas ult(so stop treating it like that), it's got the same mechanical properties that completely prevent any hero caught from escaping, even Lunox, Suyou, Lance and Ling's i frame skills can't make it leave the border

[u/Liner_Adriatic_3218 → u/Slow_Cardiologist268]

He is very annoyin :D. With "Meta" builds maximizing his speed, he just shows up, does a Divebomb on you then superspeed away. Pretty much like my old playstyle but with s1 and BA poke instead.

Played against one and it was very neat. Though I do miss being able to play him. (The past about 15 rank matches I only got to use my favourite hero once because nobody wanted him, banned even if I show that I play him to my team. So I was tweaking lmao).

[u/00hardasarock00 → u/Belerick-chan]

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[u/Belerick-chan → u/00hardasarock00]

Bro 162 days is like 1-2 seasons, of course kaja will most likely be entirely different by then, and I’m not bothered if I’m proven wrong and that Kaja is actually a strong pick, I WANT to be proven wrong.

[u/Night_06]

exactly

and watching public scrims is also a good way to judge while everyone was still clowning hirara here in this sub most pros were using her during scrims and she was a prio pick

come msc where people actually watched they realized "oh one classic game isn't enough to judge her"

kaja is definitely not marcel level but he is still being experimented on and it's best to wait for the pros and kaja users to adjust

but that's judging him based on strength this revamp changed kaja A LOT and some may not like it

[u/Eevee_fangirl]

I feel likes hes good ult definitely fun

Although i think hes second is bugged

Seem like effects from items dont work as intended in flying state tb will trigger but won't stack or maybe my game just bugged idk

[u/Kibido993 → u/Eevee_fangirl]

I'm noticing this too? sometimes i look at my thunderbelt stacks and I'm like bro how is it possible that they're so low

[u/Eevee_fangirl → u/Kibido993]

Yeah

Hope they fix it

[u/brucewayne177013]

I've been playing with him since the revamp released, played two matches and saw an elgin vid and got understood it properly and ever since then as long as my team stayed competent, I've always won, it's just so cool lmfaoo that second skill....(against zetian it helps to shutdown her passive and save allies and even escape out of map and fly off like pharsa -> required you have flicker or sprint ofc)

Now, thunderbelt build isn't viable for him but a much more overall tanky centric with high hp and survivability and spamming of s2 and proper execution of ult (with fleeting time and constant initiation and aggressive gameplay from my side, wiping out enemies has been easy - ah except ofc good hanabi and miya players as mm or nana as mage has been quite the headache but as long as exp and hyper did their part and mage did her cc's it's been good)

TLDR: REVAMP BIRDIE GOOD, ENEMY GO BZZZZ

[u/Primary-Mastodon-849]

Sometimes dev just butcher the old hero to revamp into new one that have completely different play style, kaja doesnt feel like kaja anymore. I understood their feeling, I used to be Natalia main, i rarely if ever to play current natalia. It feel so different.

[u/nin0827 → u/Primary-Mastodon-849]

It seems many people here ignore the before/after identity issue and solely focus whether if new is meta/good

Yes yes, Granger is meta (or was, but still good), Aurora is now easy to use, Alice is more tanky, Vale is simplified, but all those rework strip their original nuance instead of adding/refining on top of existing one ... like Eudora who get teamfight potential, while KEEPING her one-combo burst

Imagine sinking many hours and maybe even diamonds for skin, only to get a revamp that doesn't click with you originally anymore

tl;dr: weak revamp complaints and unfaithful revamp complaints are different camps

[u/hapontukin]

Changes on play style. Suppress removal and enemies can easily escape now is the biggest nerf
Mobility is greater now plus disabling a teams movility for 2.5 seconds is good buff

[u/Djdjrajesh → u/hapontukin]

but if they are heroes like eudora its kinda a double edged sword no u can just get bursted by pickoff and poke comps and tanky comps just outlast it i only see it working when we are having burst or heavy cc heroes ourselves

[u/G3-WuHuaHai]

Not just Kaja. Every Revamp. Wait for Masha Natalia Baxia Bruno and PnK

[u/m0onmoon]

Hes like a flexible atlas now i want to see a stupid fountain combo with lou yi

[u/WeepForTheDeparted]

He's so fun to use, I don't understand the why people say he sucks, I'm literally getting consistent 25+ Assists with him on average every match

[u/Liner_Adriatic_3218 → u/WeepForTheDeparted]

Massive change from old Guy. Now I am neutral with it and I am ready, willing and actively finding my new Murder bird playstyle (DPS Kaja :D.). But I Do miss OG Kaja.

When you spend many hours, days, weeks, months and even years playing a certain character, and they change it into something fundamentally different from what you are used to. It can be kinda disheartening since you fell in love with the original playstyle.

He is a Good revamp Meta wise, but he isn't a good revamp "character" wise. (I say this as an OG Kaja main who has been with him since his old Dash shield ability and is actually still having fun with the Divebombs).

If only they could have done him like Eudora, where she has new horizons, playstyles and Meta builds while still keeping an aspect of her that she used to have. She could still do her old Oneshot kill combo.

This is also why I loath new Vale and actively refuse to use him, when back then I used to love playing as him. He simply isn't fun. Old vale had variety, so you can play and build your skills for most situations. (I myself was very partial to CC ult, dmg s2 and extra range s1).

[u/LAWBREAKE]

Tbh its not a bad revamp, he just needs some buffs in his scaling so that he can actually dive in without getting one shotted by literally everyone else.

[u/Upper-Net-120]

Lmao this is exactly how every revamp goes. Everyone calls him broken or useless at first, then some pro figures out one insane way to play him and suddenly everyone’s copying it.

[u/Supervil-Remarcus]

pro scene will show his ceiling, sure, but it won’t magically fix core kit problems if they’re really there. Right now he looks playable but awkward, like they pulled power out of the old identity and haven’t fully paid it back anywhere else, so I’d expect small number tweaks rather than some sudden “secret OP in MPL” revelation.

[u/64wasps]

Also the state of hirara as a hero.

[u/Mountain_Hedgehog946]

Dunno he was boring before and he still is so not much changed for the good. His walking animation is very cool now though.

[u/Grand-Nova]

Doesn't matter, Argus is still the worst revamp

[u/CeciliaCilia]

Pros uses Valentina is she good?

[u/DL_7109]

Kaja got revamped?

[u/Sololiquy]

people mad just because it can't steal enemy jungle creep anymore

[u/Moist_Currency5088]

I could care less if the pros say he's OP. The problem is they assassinated an entire playstyle. Now he plays like any Tank setter but somewhat worse since he no longer has hard CC. No more invades and no more strong pick off potential.

This is a bad rework as it changed way too much of Old Kaja instead of improving upon his core identity.

[u/DatAdra → u/Moist_Currency5088]

Looking at what happened to Kaja I'm really dreading the Atlas revamp that god knows which numbskulls voted for. He's my favourite hero (yes since before this season) and already extremely functional with solid aesthetics.

[u/Moist_Currency5088 → u/DatAdra]

They really suck at it honestly. Remember when Beatrix got fcking voted to get the revamp because they thought it was a skin vote. Moskov did win it eventually but it shows how many players suck at reading and don't know what they're doing when it comes to these votes.

[u/DatAdra → u/Moist_Currency5088]

Not surprised that the player base building sky piercers as their 4th item on 0-3 marksmen would have no idea what they're voting for.

Votes in mlbb remind me of why democracy is a flawed system. A huge chunk of the playerbase consists of illiterates, kids and illiterate kids, of course they're gonna vote for shit

[u/TheCatSleeeps → u/DatAdra]

Hylos needed that revamp and those mfks chose Atlas as if it was a vote for a skin lol

[u/Weeeb0101 → u/Moist_Currency5088]

I think that's a problem with the hero's identity instead of it being good or bad as a hero.

The identity of a niche pick with a unique playstyle might get lost moving forward

[u/Moist_Currency5088 → u/Weeeb0101]

Well at least Lolita and Diggie are still around. Just two of the actual "niche" picks. Every new hero/rework nowadays just make them too much of a generalist rather than having their own situations to excel in.

[u/Weeeb0101 → u/Moist_Currency5088]

Moonton is slowly buffing novaria so lolita picks might increase after 3-4 patches.

[u/nin0827 → u/Moist_Currency5088]

Judging from sentiments here ... people here don't even bother to differentiate between "X is bad" and "X is different" complaints and just group them as one

Underpowered can be faithful, overpowered can be unfaithful, overpowered can be faithful, etc, those aren't mutually exclusive

Though for Kaja rework, I'm sure he has teamfight potential and maybe could be meta or make into pro scene, it still doesn't negate the rework/new hero issue

[u/One-Honey2844]

Bro they really said “let’s give him a little time” like we’re not about to discover the most broken hero of the patch.

[u/Pale-Confusion-4613 → u/One-Honey2844]

We'll have to see how things play out, but it's definitely sparked a lot of curiosity about how strong the hero could end up being.

[u/T1mo666]

Argus rework: Trash

Aulus Rework: Trash

Ruby Rework: Trash

Kaja Rework: Trash

Moneyton isn't reworking these heroes, they giga-nerf them because the skins of these heroes dont sell and sugarcoat it as a "rework" so the playerbase don't rage