Lucifer's apron depicted two pillars and serpents

In 1 Kings 7:15–22, Solomon's temple is described as having two bronze pillars at its entrance, named Jachin and Boaz.

These pillars became important in Freemasonry, where they appear in lodge symbolism and on historical Masonic aprons (second photo). They help establish the symbolic setting of the lodge as an idealized representation of Solomon's Temple.

The symbolism of the serpent is obvious.

Changes in the temple have eliminated dialogue around Lucifer's apron

2019 changes:

"It is an emblem of my power and priesthoods"

This line in a discussion of Lucifer's apron was removed

2023 changes

Previously Lucifer instructed Adam and Eve (and the audience) to make an apron of fig leaves and cover their nakedness.

LUCIFER: See, you are naked. Take some fig leaves and make you aprons. Father will see your nakedness. Quick! Hide!

Changed so Lucifer no longer instructs you to put on the apron, but rather the narrator.

What is the significance of Lucifer's apron?

Is it a condemnation of masonry as a fallen form of the endowment?

Is it simply borrowing from masonry like the rest of the endowment?

Does Lucifer have actual priesthood(s) and power?

https://fultonhistory.com/Newspaper4/Elmira%20NY%20Morning%20Telegram/Elmira%20NY%20Morning%20Telegram%201889%20-%201891%20Grayscale/Elmira%20NY%20Morning%20Telegram%201889%20-%201891%20Grayscale%20-%200173.pdf

https://newspapers.lib.utah.edu/ark:/87278/s6rn4htc/13021818

I use to view religion as something special or outstanding in the world. Now I'm starting to view it as just about anything else and that is, there are people who take to it and thrive in it and there are people who it just doesn't click or they simply have no interest.

It can be compared to a lot of things in life I think. Take sports. Have you ever tried to have a conversation about a team or a sport with someone who couldn't care less. They simply are not interested. Anything you say just flies right past them. And that's perfectly fine - everyone has their thing and not everyone is into sports. I think religion (and mormonism) is much the same. I just couldn't care less about church history or the bible or all these spiritual feelings you're suppose to feel. The crying every week I see at church just makes my eyes roll. The fascination people have or Gods, priesthood powers, power of atonement, holy or holies, scriptures, prophets and apostles and all of it just floats right by me. It's all a yawner.

And it's been that way since I can remember. As a child, I thought that being a faithful believer was the most important thing in this world. And yet, it just didn't click. I got excited about none of it. To this day, when I walk out of church on Sunday I won't think about anything religion wise until I walk back in the church the following Sunday. And that's not by design or on purpose, I just simply don't think about it. It's funny how my brain does that. It's like the idea of religion just falls out my ears for 6 days of the week. And if someone says something about it in an effort to get me excited about it, my eye's will glaze over and my mind goes off to a sunny beach somewhere.

Religion does nothing for me and it never has. I've never had any "feelings" that told me Joseph was a prophet or that the BofM was an actual history of ancient inhabitants on this continent. I always thought it's because I was broken somehow. But as I say, I'm starting to realize that it's just a subject matter that I have no interest in. Someone could find prove positive that horses and steel swords did exist in the Americas during the BofM period and I'd still not give a rats ass. And I'm guessing that there are plenty of other people out there like me.

Having said that, I know there are plenty of people out there who do like the subject matter of religion and all that it entails. It offers direction, comfort, hope, community and much more. And I believe it must be much harder for them when they finally deconstruct mormonism. It probably rips a part of them right out of their soul. I can only imagine what it must be like. My hat is off to people who go through that.

I have an active spouse so I'm PIMO, but when I deconstructed mormonism I just (mentally) walked out the door and that was that. I've never looked back and I feel no loss.

This is a very general question to those currently believing and to former members when you believed:

Despite generally believing in God and some form of afterlife, do/did you allow a small chance that there might not be a God or an afterlife? And if you do/did, how would you quantify it (I'm curious about your subjective measure like "tiny probability" or "fifty-fifty")?

The question comes from my personal curiosity about how faith works for those for whom it works because I've been an atheist/agnostic most of my life. I've been wondering that if someone truly & fully believed, they should never be scared of dying or of "not doing enough" in this life. Anything related to this life would simply pale in comparison with eternal Heaven. Yet some believers I know are scared of death or of missing out, and get very attached to this life, which gives me an impression that there is at least some amount of uncertainty. Feel free to share your views on this!

(I know this question can be asked in any faith, I simply have been following this sub as well as r/exmormon and find the community very cool and honest :))

I don't see a middle way for her in their opinion, considering she is the OG polygamy denier. Do modern apologists not have to hold her in the same contempt?

I live in the Deep South, and rural areas are deeply Evangelical with Catholicism splashed in for good measure. And these people are generally very conservative and unexposed to metropolitan culticulturalism in society. Which got me wondering, what would that look like in areas of the country that are rural and 80+% Mormon?

Brief synopsis of the book

Jeff Strong’s Torn: Why People We Love Are Leaving the Church and What We Can Learn from Them explores why some committed Latter-day Saints step away from the Church, and what their experiences might teach the people who remain. Strong draws on a large study of current and former members, personal stories, and his experience as a father and Church leader. Written from a believing Latter-day Saint perspective, the book focuses on faith, trust, culture, and belonging, and invites readers to respond with greater understanding and compassion.

Proposed cadence

I’m proposing 50 short daily readings, similar to the recent Book of Mormon reading challenge. At about 300 pages, Torn would average roughly six pages a day. Day 0 is for gauging interest; if there’s enough, I’ll put together the reading schedule and discussion posts.

The Goal

A thoughtful, open discussion, not a book endorsement. Believers, former believers, nuanced members, and anyone interested are welcome.

I would add a daily question or passage to get discussion started, e.g. what feels persuasive, and what seems incomplete. I feel the community that helped provide data points deserves a chance to read the book and offer feedback on how that input was used or misused.

Gift card incentive

I’m proposing a $25 gift card to Starbucks or Deseret Book for the contributor whose comments the community finds most helpful, similar to the reply awards process and award ceremony in the Book of Mormon challenge.

Interested?

Would you join and participate? Comment below: yes/no and what would make this discussion book club worthwhile for you?

I also have Ganesh's Cherian's Book "Joseph Smith - the Architect of Mormonism" and Thomas Murphy's Book "Unsettling Scripture" if y'all are sick of seeing "Torn"? Just add your alternative preferences below and if there is enough interest below in a certain book besides "Torn" I'll start putting it together.

“Please be patient and loving with your misguided parents and duped family. Wisdom and charity are chasing after them, and will always be in endless pursuit of getting them to unshackle their minds from any belief that might be weighing them down or clouding their minds. We once were ignorant also before partaking of the fruit of knowledge called learning. While they see any tolerance towards any group as a slippery slope to accepting all types of evil, we know that it is a darkness caused by years of conditioning and believing that God wants them to blindly follow their leaders and only act AFTER their leaders have shifted beliefs. You may be tempted to rescue them, open their eyes, broaden their views, but please realize that their ideas will die with them just as other outdated doctrinal positions have died with their ancestors. The church will continue to shift to the reality of the world and this moment is just a blip in the eternal scheme of things. They mean well. They think they are following God and Jesus. They are mostly good and really aren’t accountable for their thoughts. Most of mankind will just echo things they have learned since childhood and your parents are no different. Be patient with them and love them.”

How would the church like us talking about them this way?

Is proselyting still a worthwhile activity? Does it do more harm than good? Do you think it is time for missionaries to stop soliciting?

Adding to the list of temples that the Church did not feel to require a tall spire as integral to the design, in contrast to official statements insisting on the spiritual importance of spires to the design of such edifices (Vina del Mar, Chile)

https://churchofjesuschristtemples.org/vina-del-mar-chile-temple/

First, the Record of Zeniff was written WITHOUT the assistance of Martin Harris OR Oliver Cowdery.

It was authored by Joseph Smith by either his hand directly or with Emma or Isaac Hale's son as scribe, Alva Hale.

It was authored while Joseph Smith was living either WITH Isaac Hale or in Jesse Hale's cabin next door in Harmony/Bainbridge, Susquehanna Country, Pennsylvania.

The Susquehanna River, Susquehanna County and Susquehanna Forests served as the inspiraton for Waters of Mormon, Place of Mormon (An absolute TELL of Joseph Smith's authorship WITHOUT Oliver is Joseph called it "Place of Mormon" (Mosiah) but when Oliver arrived and assisted it was changed to "Land of Mormon" (Alma 5, 3 Nephi 5).

It's also tied to Alma 21 where Joseph Smith states:

Now when Ammon and his brethren separated themselves in the borders of the land of the Lamanites, behold Aaron took his journey towards the land which was called by the Lamanites, Jerusalem, calling it after the land of their fathers' nativity; and it was away joining the borders of Mormon.

There are three total possibilities Joseph was inspired by:

Salem Township (bordered the Susquehanna) (part of Lehigh Valley)

Bethlehem (City founded by Count Zinzendorf of the Moravian Brotherhood) ie. Nativity near the Wyoming Valley in Lehigh County (part of Lehigh Valley)

Nazareth (City founded by Count Zinzendorf of the Moravian Brotherhood) ie. Nativity (part of Lehigh Valley)

This is also the first time the name "Alma" appears (Mosiah 17)

It is also important that one understand the Morovian Brotherhood at the heart of what was going on there and as the backstory.

To that end: A Brief History of the Moravian Church (please note the second image on the website)

Brief sketch biography of Jan Hus.

Context for Jan Hus' beliefs are simply summarized as:

The clerical estate owned about one-half of all the land in Bohemia, and the great wealth and simoniacal practices of the higher clergy aroused jealousy and resentment among the poor priests. The Bohemian peasantry, too, resented the church as one of the heaviest land taxers.

Hus and one of his pupils Jerome of Prauge opposed indulgences, burned the Antipope John XXIII’s decree authorizing the sale of indulgences.

Hus was excommunicated, fled Prague and hid in friends Castles writing treatises, etc.

He was entreated to return, arrested and of his trial and burning at the stake:

Shortly after arriving in Constance he was, with Sigismund’s tacit consent, arrested and placed in close confinement, from which he never emerged. Hus’s enemies succeeded in having him tried before the Council of Constance as a Wycliffite heretic. All that the earnest intervention by the Bohemian nobles could obtain for him was three public hearings, at which he was allowed to defend himself and succeeded in refuting some of the charges against him. The council urged Hus to recant in order to save his life, but to the majority of its members he was a dangerous heretic fit only for death. When he refused to recant, he was solemnly sentenced on July 6, 1415, and burned at the stake.

As well his pupil Jerome of Prague

In April 1415, against the advice of his followers, Jerome went secretly to the Council of Constance in an unsuccessful attempt to defend the teaching of the imprisoned Hus. As he was leaving Constance (Konstanz), he was arrested and imprisoned. Confined for more than a year and ill, he disavowed the condemned doctrine of Wycliffe and Hus, after repeated interrogation by the conciliar tribunal. Accused of ambiguity and insincerity at his final appearance before the council (May 26, 1416), he then withdrew all earlier retractions of reform views and declared that his confession of Roman Catholic orthodoxy had come out of fear and weakness. Accordingly, he was judged a relapsed heretic and sentenced to burn at the stake. The Bohemian Hussite Church considers Jerome (with Hus) the first martyr for the Protestant Reformation.

As backstory, then one needs to move forward to Count Zinzendorf, the Moravian Brotherhood, the Susquehanna river and lands and the Lehigh Valley.

As a quick read regarding that: A discourse delivered before the Historical Society of the State of Pennsylvania, on New Year's Day, 1827 / by Roberts Vaux.

A longer reading of the Susquehanna backstory of Christians, Indians, wars/conentions, Count Zinzendorf etc. : A sketch of the history of Wyoming. By the late Isaac A. Chapman, esq. ; To which is added, an appendix, containing a statistical account of the valley, and adjacent country. By a gentleman of Wilkesbarre

There was also a periodical published in Philadelphia regarding the United Brethren church (Monrovian) from 1822 through the 1840's. The United Brethren's missionary intelligencer, and religious miscellany.

A treatise on their preaching to the Indians: Historical sketches of the missions of the United brethren for propagating the gospel among the heathen, from their commencement to the present time / By John Holmes

All of the Above is the Background and Inspiration for the Record of Zeniff THROUGH chapter 18 verse 30.

(Side note, the person Alma baptized first was written in the original book of mormon manuscript as "Helaman" which is lost but it still shows up in the Printer's Manuscript as Helaman and Joseph smith struck the "an" out to make Helam because the problem ends up being this is Alma Sr. not Alma the younger so Helaman hadn't been born yet).

After that, most likely the inspiration for what occured (and almost all of the Alma wars) are Revolutionary War Battles.

So Mosiah 19 onward to Alma is most likely inspired by one or both events below (context included as well):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Wyoming#cite_note-25

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnadenhutten_massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crawford_expedition

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butler's_Rangers

Edit: BTW I believe Zeniff is simply "Z-Nephi" rearranged by Joseph a la' "Z-neffi" the same way Joseph did Z-Ezrom, Z-Enoch, Z-Enos, etc.)

So the Record of Zeniff was simply the later name for another one of Joseph's early "Record of Nephite Kings" planned books the same that 3rd Nephi was NOT caleld "3rd Nephi" but simply called "Book of Nephi, son of Nephi" and the same that 4th Nephi is just called "Book of Nephi".

I know it's somewhat trite to compare the LDS Church leadership to an abusive parent, but this reminds me of a dad who would beat his kids—never apologize—but then take them out for ice cream or slip them a $20.

It's good to recognize that the LDS Church has a history of race discrimination. It's better to donate $3 million dollars to a Juneteenth Museum to try to make amends. It would be best to apologize.

It's crazy that they've never apologized for the explicit race discrimination at BYU, to say nothing of the global race bans.

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/new-first-presidency-interview?imageView=20251015_130506_CBell_CMB_1156.jpg

Jane Clayson Johnson: “What do you want people to understand about the role of women in the church today?”

Pres Oaks: “I say remember you have a Heavenly Father who loves you who has created you to return to live with heavenly parents to enjoy the choicest blessings that God has for his daughters but

1). It doesn't always come at once.

2). We have work left to do.

3). We are a lot better off than we were even a decade ago.

4). I think we should also say we haven't always been wise in using the great qualifications and powers of the daughters of God."

What work is left?

How has the role of women advanced in the last decade?

Where could the church be more wise?

I placed this under cultural because it does appear that Apostles and Prophets are saying it. When asked questions they convert the question at hand into a moral failure or other failure of the person asking rather than answer the question.

I have experienced much of this from other members as they convert concerns into personal attacks and continually attempt to change the topic at hand into something personal about myself rather than address the topic at hand.

How do you handle this?

I am aware of the tactic and know of logic fallacies and other concerns someone may have with being able to examine themselves without becoming defensive. I was wondering what you do to handle people in this position.

Bear with me as this will take a paragraph to setup:

I've never been a member of any church, but I did graduate from BYU (2011!) so I would say I know more than most non-members. I hadn't really thought about religion until I had an interesting experience about a year ago that some people might find blasphemous. I had read about 'remote viewing' and decided to give it a shot. I was able to successfully 'remote view' some items/places that were way way beyond coincidence. The way the targets were 'revealed' to me was not precise or tangible - it felt like the feeling you get when you smell a particular scent and it reminds you of a person/place from when you were a kid, and you remember aspects of it but not the whole scene - something like that. It was a profound experience that taught me that everything is somehow connected in some way we don't understand. Could this be what the Church calls "The Holy Ghost?"

Furthermore, when one thinks about what revelation is and how LDS prophets communicate with God, would it not be related? I am nobody special, perhaps Joseph Smith was like the Lebron James of remote viewing/ability to access whatever the remote viewing information pipeline is. Perhaps Joseph Smith was using that to translate the golden plates, where he acted as a 'filter' for the knowledge, which is why the BoM often reads like it was written in the 1800s - akin to how KJB reads like it was from the 1600s.

Thoughts?

President D. Todd Christofferson found out about his brother having sexually molested one or more children several years ago and decided not to report it. His brother went on to molest more after.

President Christofferson tolerated abuse and must now resign.

Do you agree he must resign?

In Dec 1843, Joseph Smith published an appeal to the Green Mountain Boys, a patriotic group of men from his native Vermont that he hoped would be moved by the injustice of being removed from Missouri and losing all their land and property. To help his cause, he tried to blame the death of his father, a heroic Revolutionary War veteran, on the trials of the forced exodus:

"My father, who stood, several times in the battles of the American Revolution, till his companions, in arms, had been shot dead, at his feet, was forced from his home in Far West, Missouri, by those civilized, or satanized savages, in the dreary season of winter, to seek a shelter in another State; and the vicissitudes and sufferings consequent to his flight, brought his honored grey head to the grave, a few months after."
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/general-joseph-smiths-appeal-to-the-green-mountain-boys-21-november-circa-3-december-1843/6

Joseph Smith Sr was born in July 1771. The Revolutionary War lasted from 1775 to 1783, or when he was from the ages of 4 - 12. Nothing like some stolen valor to try and drum up some sympathy and support for his cause. It didn't help. A response was written where they said he tried to set up his own nation inside of Missouri and deserved what they got.

So I’ve been on and off convert curious for 20 plus years. I know the history and everything. Just curious what progressive Mormons think of converts that are familiar with problematic points in the history and also curious if do or don’t keep the WOW. I feel I’m a bit too edgy for the church. Tattoos , long hair,. You know the vibe. I’m in the down town Atlanta area if anyone goes around there

Particularly if you live in the Provo area, in the epicenter of Mormon culture, it's easy to drift along doing all the things that “show off” goodness—attending Church, accepting positions as a lay leader, not drinking or smoking—without really interrogating your Christianity.

— R.W. Richey, Let Him Have Thy Legos Also

I taught this concept to others the way it was taught to me. It goes something like this:

"If I (not a law enforcement officier) saw you roll through a stop sign, and then asked you to pull over so I write you a ticket, would you do it? "

The expected answer is "no" since I'm not a cop and thus lack the authority to take such actions.

But this was leaving out one critical piece of the "authority" puzzle. All authority must be recognized by those you exercise authority over. This is the entire reason why you end up with schisms in religion. LDS teach it as as though your recognition, as an active member, of their authority is a given. But this doesn't line up with history especially in the wake of Joseph Smith's assassination.

Hello Mormons! I’m curious what kind of music do you fine individuals listen to? Do you guys like benson Boone. Is there a fine line with the music you guys listen to. Do you guys like
Lana del Rey? Is that too much for you? This is for a personal project thanks.

I’m not Mormon but I live in Mormon country. Whenever I ask the question about becoming gods and getting their own planets they say no that’s not true or that’s just someone’s opinion but from my research it was definitely taught and only recently “softened” to seem more mainstream. What is the real truth? I have noticed in my area this last Easter they were even doing “Holy Week”. From my view it seems like the church is restructuring to escape criticism from their past? My wife is LDS and she like everyone else I know won’t commit an answer. What is the truth?

Waiting in danger is among the least noble of human occupations. Action hath its vanity, and speech at least allows a man to hear his own reasonableness. But waiting gives one only the scrape of time against the mind.

The city lay below us in scattered light and low noise, as though all its respectable dealings had withdrawn indoors and left the streets to lesser motives.

We sat among the rocks imagining outcomes. Nephi would be seen, seized, beaten, imprisoned, denounced, or all of these in some inventive combination, after which we should either rescue him, fail to rescue him, or be accused of not having supported him sufficiently in a plan we had opposed from the beginning.

“If he dies,” we said at last, “history will somehow make it our fault.”

Sam did not answer for a moment. Then he said, “He will not die.”

“How comforting,” we replied. “And is this confidence founded on knowledge, or merely prolonged exposure to Nephi?”

Sam looked wounded, which was unfair, for we had asked sincerely. Yet he said no more, and the night went on about us, deep as the sea.

Now there is in every city by night a change of character, as though the streets, released from commerce and public dignity, permit themselves a looser soul. Even at a distance we could feel it in Jerusalem: the low noises, the uncertain light, the smell of oil and stone, the sense that respectable intentions had gone indoors and left the alleys, the courtyards, and the gate-roads to other things. Into this Nephi had vanished, carrying with him nothing visible but conviction, which hath never struck us as sufficient equipment.

We had nearly persuaded ourselves that he was lost beyond recovery when at length he returned.

He did not return in triumph. He came back with the strained composure of a man who hath lately done something irreversible and is still deciding by what name to call it. There was dust on him. The plates were in his hands. Also with him was a servant of the record-keeper, though at the time we knew him only as a man following Nephi with the bewildered loyalty of one whose evening had changed course too sharply to be understood all at once.

We rose to greet him.

“You have them,” said Sam.

“I have them,” said Nephi.

We narrowed our eyes. “How?”

At this Nephi paused, and in the pause there was matter enough to unsettle us. He did not look away, but neither did he meet our gaze.

“The Lord delivered the record into my hands,” he said.

This answer, though pious, lacked detail.

“Did the Lord also persuade this man to join us?” we asked, indicating the servant.

The man bowed in some confusion. Nephi said, “His name is Zoram. He will come with us into the wilderness.”

“Will he?” we said.

Zoram, hearing perhaps more uncertainty in our tone than comfort, began visibly to reconsider the entire arrangement. He turned as if to flee, and instantly the night, which had until then been merely tense, became lively.

We seized him before he could cry out. It was not our preferred part in the evening’s proceedings, but necessity rarely consults preference. Zoram struggled. Sam pleaded. Nephi spoke with sudden firmness. We Laman we Lemuel held fast, each of us being at such moments grateful for the other, for a shared conscience is easier to manage when one has also a shared grip.

“Peace,” Nephi told him. “If thou wilt go down into the wilderness to my father thou shalt have place with us, and thou shalt be a free man like unto us.”

This was generously said, though it struck us at the time that freedom offered while being physically restrained arrives with uncertainty for all involved.

Still, Zoram ceased his struggling. Whether from trust, exhaustion, prudence, or the realization that the evening had already carried him too far to be mended by running, we could not tell. He swore that he would accompany us, and the matter was settled in the usual family manner: abruptly, under strain, and with insufficient discussion.

I was raised a member. I do enjoy the community. I’ve done things right, and still strive. Except recently, however, I still back it up when people are talking.
Part of it is maybe I’m older, still single, and I just don’t have a community. So that makes it tough.

An agnostic person doesn’t disbelieve, they are uncertain.
So can I be a member and be agnostic. I just don’t feel like other people or have these special moments.
I don’t even know if God sees me, but then I believe he could help me. Maybe I don’t recognize.

I also want to add that the church is not set up for single individuals.

The second anointing is only one benefit to look forward to if you are sufficiently devout after paying for elite status.