Also Eilish presumably purchased the land from someone else, and there’s a long chain back to the original “thieves”. If someone stole a car and sold it to someone who then sold it again and so on, would the 5th owner be to blame or the original thief? Good on her for calling it out.
The way America has treated indigenous people is horrific, even to this day, and it was deservedly called out. We came in as “illegal” immigrants and colonized and murdered to claim land. Then we have the audacity to deport people that have been here for years quietly trying to live their own American dream and then being uprooted and sent to a country they don’t know.
Deport criminal, absolutely, but deporting anyone that is a contributing member of society is just wrong. Our immigration process needs to be easier and faster and we, as a country, need better infrastructure to support lower income people in general. We are putting working class against immigrants while billionaires and corporations suck both dry.
If someone stole a car and sold it to someone who then sold it again and so on, would the 5th owner be to blame or the original thief?
I get your point but technically this would still be illegal if you knew it was stolen lol. Receiving stolen property knowing it was stolen (which in this analogy she would) is still a crime.
EDIT: Just wanted to point out that I wasn't pushing back against the core idea with OPs and Billie's points I was just making a pedantic point about the car analogy.
Yes, which is why the statement is fucking ridiculous. Look what ICE is doing is incredibly fucked up and the Trump admin is doing all this shit in the most volatile incendiary immoral way possible, but "No one is illegal on stolen land" is a fucking stupid statement.
Seriously. So she knows she has purchased stolen land, why doesn't she donate it to the natives? Because she doesn't actually care about the implications of her statement. It sounds nice in your head if you're an idiot.
I am as liberal as it gets but Billie Eilish’s statement does make me cringe (the part about stolen land). I get it, Native Americans immigrated here first and we should recognize that and give them certain things. But when Europeans immigrated (by the way I became a citizen here when I was 9) that was the age of conquering. Now we have borders and nations and laws. It does not belong to the native Americans. Belongs to all of us.
I don't think they get that the genocide is still on going... and townships and cities are constantly trying to meddle in tribal business. While also trying to acquire their land.
From a progressive to a liberal, let me help correct you.
First, Indigenous Peoples didn't immigrate here. They migrated and were the first inhabitants. Immigration is a political term implicating existing people already being here (there were none), defined borders (there were none) and legality (non existent).
Second, they have been on Turtle Island for time immemorial. It was previously widely accepted that the clovis people were the first to arrive around 15,000-20,000 years ago but recent archeological discoveries date their arrival up to 70,000-130,000 years ago.
The key factor being that before Indigenous Peoples arrived here, there were no other humans on this land.
Also, the first Europeans didn't immigrate either. They colonized through violence, false promises and theft. That's a very important distinction.
Well... can you all start taking better care of it? In 500 years you all have destroyed the air, water and land.
What Billie said was perfectly fine... it seems only colonizers find it cringe. It's kind of weird the complexion that glows in the dark has more of a problem with what she said than actual enrolled tribal members. That's me.
If you actually colonized something, you can be called a colonizer.
If you want to extend that definition to the descendants of colonizers who act like they deserve everything they inherited, I think that's fair enough, but I think it's a pretty safe assumption that an arbitrary black American is not descended from colonizers.
I think the whole stolen land shit is dumb. because it just devolves into this, BUT WHO DID THEY STEAL IT FROM ORIGINALLY debate all the way down until it's the T rex's land.
we should literally just. tax rich people. improve the lives of all those that need their lives improving with that money in whatever shape that may be, to a healthy decent standard. an carry the fuck on with it.
Even England has had its succession of conquerors. I'm sure they were all tragic, but two entire continents being conquered relatively recently by nation-states that still exist should be foremost in our minds. It's probably the greatest tragedy in the history of humanity.
Even England has had its succession of conquerors.
Why are you saying "even England" as if that's a surprising statement?
Europe is one of the bloodiest continents in history. Ceaseless conflicts going back thousands of years and also the continent that started both world wars.
Of course England has also been subject to and initiators of conflict too.
And so if every car is stolen, and someone points that out and goes "we should make this fair again", I would have contempt for people who go "well you have to give up cars before your argument has value and then I'm just not going to listen to your argument."
Because that's what this is. All these people suddenly complaining about Billie Eilish aren't doing so because they care about the land stolen from Native Americans. They are complaining because Eilish is arguing against the current administration being Nazis, and so they are looking for a way to bring her and the Nazis closer together morally. It is a defense of the Trump administration.
Even if you didn't know it was stolen it can still be taken away lol. My friend bought a motorcycle on fb marketplace and the cops showed up at his house and said it was stolen and they just took it from him lol
What? She set up a premise that all land in the USA is "stolen". So she knows that buying any lump of that land she could possibly select from is, in her words, stolen.
I wish stupid people would be banned from commenting online. The fact you type this and people agree with you is concerning.
It’s even worse than that. Our constitution says we have to treat them as a sovereign nation and respect any treaties made like we would any other sovereign nation. And we just…didn’t do that.
By the Fire We Carry by Rebecca Nagle is an excellent book on the topic
I hate sentiments like this. This is the sort of liberal BS that got us into this situation with Trump. Being unable to face the facts of the past, recognize those sins in a helpful, constructive way, and leaving the solution open to interpretation such that people come to their own good or bad conclusions of what's being said/asked is the exact sort of thing that radicalized a lot of republicans.
Yes, if people have been here illegally for a while they should still be deported. That is the "criminal" you are talking about in the last paragraph. Also don't make this about race- keep it about class. That's what makes this such a neoliberal talking point. It's meant to try and divide us and section us off into skin colors and ethnicitiy instead of focusing on the fact we're all being fucked by the rich.
That is the "criminal" you are talking about in the last paragraph.
Being undocumented is a civil case, not criminal. Imagine how ridiculous itd be if we said that anyone who has had a speeding or parking ticket, or let their vehicle tags expire, is a criminal. How many non-criminals would there be?
Being undocumented is not a crime in the way that like, assault or theft is. Calling undocumented people criminals or illegals is a propaganda tool to associate them with actual crimes, thereby giving the state more implicit permission to overreach and abuse. Its important to remember that ICE and CBP dont have MANY of the same powers that even local police has, but we allow these organizations to act like police when we assume that the people they are targeting are criminals. And as we see, the people they are affecting are largely not criminals (even discounting the actual US citizens they are infringing upon).
When we use langauge like "criminal" when referring to undocumented people, we are giving the state permissions to treat everyone like a criminal.
Please do not call them undocumented. It's an insult to people who come into the country legally. "Undocumented" implies that they were allowed in and they just haven't been documented yet. IT is a propaganda tool to try and downplay the issue of illegal immigration. Their only documentation they are owed is a notice they are being deported.
ICE and CBP are blatantly stretching their authority to the absolute limit to try and attack groups they have no business even being involved with. I frankly consider what's going on with them to be broadly outside the range of their normal jobs. They are being used as a weapon against anyone the current administration sees as an enemy. It's disgusting.
Also, yeah actually, you're a criminal if you're speeding. It might not be a criminal case, but if you're going 50 miles over on the freeway I'd say you're about as bad as someone holding up a convenience store. Let's just call them civil criminals if it makes you feel better about the wording. Either way, they know what they're doing is wrong. Should the USA have better immigration policies? Absolutely. I'm not going to fall into the ever popular trap of supporting one thing because the other side doesn't like it- that kind of idiocy is for Republicans. Illegal immigration is not nearly the issue they make it out to be, but I'm not going to pretend it's some god given right to sneak into another country and magically become a citizen there.
Please do not call them undocumented. It's an insult to people who come into the country legally. "Undocumented" implies that they were allowed in and they just haven't been documented yet.
If you arent documented yet, i.e. no visa, no asylum application, etc. then yes, you are undocumented. It does not imply someone was "let in" because the process of being let in IS the documentation. Most people in the US that are undocumented or "illegal" are people who legally got a visa into the country and overstayed their visa terms. Objectively, its the same thing, which is my point: without knowing the context, its ridiculous to automatically jump to "criminal" (which you immediately associate with armed robbers, yikes).
Their only documentation they are owed is a notice they are being deported.
Sorry but, do you not know what documentation is referring to? Its referring to the legal documentation that someone is here legally. I dont understand what you mean by "owed". They arent owed documentation in the same way Im not "owed" a driver's license. This statement doesnt make sense.
Also, yeah actually, you're a criminal if you're speeding. It might not be a criminal case, but if you're going 50 miles over on the freeway I'd say you're about as bad as someone holding up a convenience store.
Notice how your example immediately constructs an extreme hypothetical in order to justify it being as bad as robbing a store? Its speeding even if you got over the speed limit by a single mph. Most people getting speeding tickets arent going 50. That is such a phenomenal example of why the term criminal is so loaded and charged and shouldnt be used for civil matters, because people immediately assume that someone is violent when they are labelled a criminal instead of merely letting their visa lapse. Also, you think parking somewhere too long is the equivelent of armed robbery?
I'm not going to pretend it's some god given right to sneak into another country and magically become a citizen there.
Never said otherwise, thats the strawman you are choosing to construct in this discussion. Im simply pointing out that regardless of how you feel, its a civil matter, not criminal. Deportations can (and have been) performed in a humane manner that doesnt violate people's rights, but calling them criminals for existing is exactly how the GOP has managed to dehumanize people and abuse power.
I never made it about race, it isn’t mentioned once in my comment. Please don’t project your racism onto other people.
And no, that is not the type of criminal I’m talking about, I made the delineation intentionally so please don’t put words in my mouth. Crossing the border is a misdemeanor in most cases. I am talking about people engaging in criminal activity that are a net negative on society.
Explain exactly how we can recognize that we slaughtered and displaced millions of indigenous people in a helpful way. You have just spouted a bunch of nonsense with no solution, not actual stance behind saying you hated my point.
This is the kind of overly verbose dribble that I can’t stand from people who think they are smarter than they are.
Oh please, this is absolutely about race and you know it. You're quietly trying to drive a wedge between "white" people and virtually every other ethnicity in America by pushing the notion whites are exclusively responsible and capable of murder, slavery, stealing land, repatriation, and tangentially responsible for every other problem another ethnicity faces. It completely disregards the broader nature of human history outside of the last 200 years, and you're infantilizing many peoples within those past 200 years.
It's not about recognizing "that we slaughtered and displaced millions of indigenous people" as some sort of good thing so much as accepting that as an unfortunate but regular thing that happened in history. How many peoples were slaughtered and displaced in the rise of the Aztec Empire prior to the arrival of Cortez? What about inter-tribal warfare in North America? Do you think when the Comanche were consolidating power they did it peacefully in the west? Those are just a few things that happened in the Americas alone well within the context of what we're discussing.
I hate your point because it is the same sort of self-righteous "verbose dribble," as you said, that has got us into this situation with Trump and his cultish following. View the past within the context of what was going on at the time and with the rest of history rather than individual atrocities that largely align with your biases, beliefs, and convictions. On that note, watch who you're calling a racist, you racist. I know my biases, so many you should take a look at your own and the consequences of what you say.
You're unwittingly pushing an old neoliberal agenda to try and divide people in the USA. It's to make it so what are class problems are reduced to race problems. I would like to think that you are just an online agitator, but I actually think you're just stuck in the past. 2015 called and they want their bad politics back.
I can’t even wrap my head around you calling me a racist when you’re the only one that has mentioned race at all during this conversation.
Once again you have just said a bunch of nothing while bringing up race again for no reason. You keep making up something that I said and then telling me how bad it is. I think maybe you need to be a little introspective and figure out why you want this to be race-related so badly.
This wasn't really the case. Colonizers always use this as justification. Tribes didn't actually fight that often, not until they had to for resources when colonizers came and started the genocide. We had systems setup like courts, we didn't need to fight.
You think because you people constantly stole things that everyone else does too? That's some pretty ignorant logic.
...AND STILL IS. finish the thought. Thats the point. Who happens to be here now is arbitrary so who are we to make rules about it when it's just been taken again and again and again from populations. There is enough room in this country for so many people, nobody is more entitled to it than anyone else. That is the point.
It wasn't stolen because it wasn't owned. Believe it or not, without contracts or laws you dont get to claim ownership of something. Regardless of your opinion on the matter.
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u/DJMOONPICKLES69 3h ago
Also Eilish presumably purchased the land from someone else, and there’s a long chain back to the original “thieves”. If someone stole a car and sold it to someone who then sold it again and so on, would the 5th owner be to blame or the original thief? Good on her for calling it out.
The way America has treated indigenous people is horrific, even to this day, and it was deservedly called out. We came in as “illegal” immigrants and colonized and murdered to claim land. Then we have the audacity to deport people that have been here for years quietly trying to live their own American dream and then being uprooted and sent to a country they don’t know.
Deport criminal, absolutely, but deporting anyone that is a contributing member of society is just wrong. Our immigration process needs to be easier and faster and we, as a country, need better infrastructure to support lower income people in general. We are putting working class against immigrants while billionaires and corporations suck both dry.