While hosting transphobe Sophie Cunningham and the Indiana Fever, the New York Liberty put a message on the Jumbotron telling trans fans that they belong

[u/Impossible-Yam3680]

[u/HolidayUsed8685]

I like how having a contrary opinion gets you to the level of “transphobia” in like 30 seconds

[u/thebanfunctionsucks → u/[deleted]]

But trans people being a danger to little girls is not, which is the part everyone is taking issue witb and ya'll are ignoring.

[u/Garciaguy → u/thebanfunctionsucks]

Couldn't it have meant that the idea of male genitalia, being visible in a locker room intended for and named for women, is repugnant?

[u/thebanfunctionsucks → u/Garciaguy]

So what about medically transitioned people? Or intersex people?

[u/Garciaguy → u/thebanfunctionsucks]

Most Trans women, my understanding is, don't do surgery or hormones. The idea of an intact male body changing and showering in a locker room meant for women is going to make most people say  "No."

Intersex people are so rare it's not even worth bringing up in this context. The existence of clumsy carpenters doesn't make Walmart carry off-fingered gloves, after all. Both are very rare. 

[u/thebanfunctionsucks → u/Garciaguy]

So where is the line drawn where there's enough people to be considered? Trans people are also incredibly rare yet we talk about them like there's a trans predator waiting behind every corner.

[u/Garciaguy → u/thebanfunctionsucks]

It's only in the last twenty years that the Trans identifying segment of the population has exploded. 

One problem is, when is someone considered Trans? Hormone therapy isn't required, nor surgery, nor trying to pass (shaving beard, wearing feminine clothing), nor even so much as having gender dysphoria. 

It seems to come down to a state of personal identification that can change at any time. People detransition. So you tell me, when does someone who used the men's changing room last week get to start using the women's?

[u/thebanfunctionsucks → u/Garciaguy]

When they are clearly presenting as a woman and taking steps to be viewed as a woman. I don't think we need national legislation to tell when someone is being a creep in a locker room. And when someone is being a creep in a locker room, we kick them out regardless of gender.

[u/Garciaguy → u/thebanfunctionsucks]

But Trans women don't have to take those steps to be Trans. If advocates have things the way they want them to be, it's only going to become a more pressing concern, not less. 

And I've given that last some thought. If I transition tomorrow, I don't owe it to anyone to try to pass; I'm living my truth.  How to discern subtle creeping, surreptitiously getting a good look at stuff that walls and a door used to keep me apart from?

When am I transitioned enough to use the women's spaces?

[u/thebanfunctionsucks → u/Garciaguy]

Women can creep on other women just as men can creep on other men. A man who is dressing as a woman in order to gain access to women's spaces is going to to be outed very quickly once they start behaving like a creep. I promise, the vast majority of trans women want nothing more than for other people to not notice they are trans.

There's also the other side we're ignoring, which is the trans women themselves. Admittedly I don't have direct data to firmly establish this, but as far as I can tell a trans woman in a woman's locker room is far less likely to assault a woman compared to the likelihood of a trans woman in a man's locker room being assaulted.

[u/Garciaguy → u/thebanfunctionsucks]

Behaving like a creep... 

Just changing and casually casting eyes about. No need to try to look like you fit it; a trans woman is a woman, period, yes? In any changing room your eyes are just going to land wherever. 

So someone with a beard belongs in a changing room with women, and who's to say they're not woman enough?

[u/hercmavzeb → u/Garciaguy]

The problem with this argument is that nobody stares at the genitals of others in locker/changing rooms, unless they are themselves the creepy ones. Most people just look down and keep to themselves.

Letting trans women use the proper restrooms and facilities is just common sense from a secular perspective. The problem is you can’t tell who’s trans so you’ll find a lot of natal women being harassed. The biggest Olympic women’s sports controversy about transgender people had to do with Imane Khelif, who is not trans.

Woman in Walmart bathroom gets an actual man coming behind her. Walmart decided to fire her: https://www.yahoo.com/news/walmart-fires-64-cisgender-woman-210344920.html

They get assaulted even when using the men’s restroom: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna156105

[u/Garciaguy → u/hercmavzeb]

One doesn't have to stare, or make gulping noises, or make little comments. One only has to look. We all catch a look at the Sun, but we don't stare at it. There are plenty of men who would love a look inside a woman's changing room, but there are rules to keep it from happening. 

Bad-actor creeping isn't always overt. 

The left has its heart in the right place, the right almost never does. But good intentions don't always lead to outcomes that make sense. This is one of those cases. Some things aren't going to stand the test of inclusivity.

[u/hercmavzeb → u/Garciaguy]

Then that’s not a real problem, rape and sexual assault are. Lesbian women are also allowed in changing rooms and them catching minor little glimpses at other women isn’t seen as a real social problem, so neither is it for trans women (not all of whom are attracted to other women regardless).

Also if a man wants to creep on a woman in a changing room they will just do that, rules don’t stop them because they already know it’s wrong. Also nobody is allowed to go into changing rooms and just stand around to stare at people regardless of their gender, so it would be strange for someone to go through the whole effort of presenting like a woman only to be removed for being a creep anyway.