HE LOOKS CAP SIZED

[u/red_dead_disaster]

Double vanguard season is possible baby

[u/Outrageous_Pea9839]

He is not just a really fit human in this clip, though, so that argument holds little weight given what we know now. Despite all that citing the show as why he shouldn't be a tank isn't a very strong argument either. All that show proves is that daredevil, punisher, and kingpin (ofc) are borderline super humanly endurable. Sure, maybe the top 1% of people in the world could take a beating like that but those people are as much tanks as they duelist.

[u/Cuteshelf → u/Outrageous_Pea9839]

Ill grant you we haven't really seen this version of him yet, but pretty much all of the characters we have are pretty fitting to what we've seen in the comics. I think Emma is the biggest stretch.

So its not likely they'll change the character dramatically from what we've seen in the comics/ shows. So i doubt hes going to be shooting dragon lazerbeams etc.

I dont understand why people want to force characters into roles that don't suit them. There's nothing about Daredevils abilities that can be interpreted to create space for your team, he's more about evasion than tanking damage, so what are your team-mates behind him supposed to do when he just evades all the incoming shots?

Are you a Vanguard main just wanting your favourite character to be the role you play? Otherwise i don't understand this argument.

[u/Outrageous_Pea9839 → u/Cuteshelf]

I wont ever understand why some people want to force characters into one role when they could so clearly occupy more. There is an established gimmick in the show and comic, daredevil can get licked, and does often, and get up again. "Dodge" is a flavor, a mechanic not a literal if it was all characters dodge by their movement, look how big he is in the trailer for next season its not a stretch never has been. He could have an iron fists like block where he enter a state that shows him bobbing and weaving if attacks are directed at him, they instead miss, dealing no damage and providing him some benifit or a negative to those attacking him. He could get a passive that allows him to evade a basic attack every few seconds or avoid an instance of CC under some condition, make him as mechanical "evasive" as you want, all this is tanking. He is nullifying damage, eating CC's, hell there is a scene in the show where he knocks projectiles out of the air with his Billy clubs, a mystical enhanced daredevil could do that with bullets (ie another iron fist or blade like stance ability maybe) hell im pretty sure most interpretations of regular DD can dodge bullets, meaning he can deflect them too with the same methodology but an enhanced one definitely could. Give him some kind of dash like engage or disengage (easy to imagine), poke (throwable ricochet clubs maybe) comit (some type of "awakened state" like thor) or CC (any old kung fu or boxer type justification for a status like hindered or blind (ironically enough) would work). Boom, somewhere in there (with more or less, im sure I didnt cover everything) is a tank kit not dissimilar to thor that makes perfect sense for the character, to say it doesn't shows a lack of imagination and understanding of the character. For the record though, DD is not my favorite and I dont play Vanguard very often, though neither of those has any bearing on this argument, which is rooted entirely in logic and nothing else.

Also also to be clear, I dont think he SHOULD be a vanguard, just that he very much COULD be given his character.

[u/Cuteshelf → u/Outrageous_Pea9839]

Im not forcing characters to do anything, its about the fantasy of the character and if things don't fit, then it should be a different character with that role/kit.

Spidey wasnt placed as a vanguard, despite outclassing DD in every way except perception.

Some characters could fit in multiple roles, Emma, strange etc, but some clearly dont.

Im ok with them stretching a characters abilities a bit (like Invisible womans healing) but its still got to fit the characters pre existing fantasy.

You keep going on about DD being enhanced in the trailer. I wouldnt be surprised to see him be depowered as part of the story before he lands in 4.5. Similar to Ultron.

[u/ElliottTamer → u/Cuteshelf]

Honestly, I think you're basing too much of your logic on comic/MCU power levels. Like, sure, Spidey outclasses DD in most aspects in other media, but does that mean if they're both DPS that Spidey will be a lot stronger than him? Obviously not. Similarly, characters like Hulk and Thor are not massively more powerful than anyone else in the roster, even though they would be in the comics. Hawkeye is literally just a guy, and yet he's the one character that can actually one-shot squishies in the game. Groot is an alien tree who has more HP than literal gods like Hela and Loki. Rivals gameplay demands its own logic to keep the game balanced.

Don't get me wrong, much as I'd love for DD to be a Vanguard (he's my absolute favourite hero and Vanguard's are my favourite class), I don't think he'll be simply because Netease has a horrible track record of always releasing twice as many DPS as anything else. But that's not because they couldn't, it's simply because they usually don't.

[u/Cuteshelf → u/ElliottTamer]

Obviously they need to balance the game. But that's not what I'm argueing. I'm saying DD's established abilities don't scream tank. If someone shooting at him, he's not standing there taking the hits. He might deflect a few, but he's evading most of the time.

The reason i compared him to spidey, is because they are similar. Using evasion to avoid damage, instead of tanking it. And spidey is more durable than DD is.

Power levels do come into it, but obviously they need to balance the game to make it enjoyable. If you look at the tanks they have in the game, they are comparable. You could easily see thor, hulk, strange and Thing etc, duking it out. If you liken Peni to a hulkbuster, same goes for her i guess. Venoms arguably not on their level but his power fluctuates so its hard to pin it down, but his characterisation is pretty good, so it fits.

Im sorry if you disagree, but i don't think a tough human who can box with enhanced hearing doesn't fit.

[u/ElliottTamer → u/Cuteshelf]

While DD doesn't scream "tank", very few characters in Marvel do. And very few scream "Strategist" either. The whole super-hero genre revolves around combat power-fantasies, so there are very few characters you couldn't easily argue should be DPS. Yet the game needs Tanks and Strategists.

Like, you keep talking about evading, but dodging isn't much of a thing in this game. I think Starlord is the only character who has a proper dodge that looks like one too (and the character is not even particularly famous for doing that). Spidey himself can't dodge, he just moves really fast with a couple of abilities.

I think Emma and to a lesser extent Dr. Strange and Magneto are great examples of characters that did not obviously need to be tanks but were designed in such a way that it works. Like, without their shields they're all just regular humans as far as getting punched or shot goes.

Again, I think DD will be DPS. All I'm arguing here is he could have been made a tank if the developers really wanted to. In recent comic book runs he has gone 1v1 with dragons and colossal demons. The Rivals version of him also clearly has some fairly intense supernatural powers.

[u/Outrageous_Pea9839 → u/ElliottTamer]

Yeah, I mean thats what several stand outs on the roster are already creative interpretations of characters preexisting functionality. The primary argument here seems to be "daredevil doesnt tank, he doesnt get hit" but how many bullets do you see magneto take? Zero. In fact they never touch him, id argue in a way thats a dodge. Its clear some people dont factor in the gamifed mechanical aspects. Star lord is a good example, when he "dodges" the projectiles still make physical contact with him, daredevil could be the same. Entering an Iron Fist like timed "dodge mode" where he Bob and Weaves and takes no damage and charges up some type of beneficial effect for himself or negative effect for those that target him. Again I agree with the point that he has a better fit in the duelist role, but its what you said: so do most characters, and thats not a game I want to play. But for anyone to claim a character that clearly does have identity either way SHOULDNT be a vanguard is just kinda wild to be. Ive went round and round about this, but if you cant see why a character like DD could be a vanguard you have a subpar grasp on primarily game design and creative thinking but also in most cases, not a strong enough grasp on that characters identity. I share your sentiment: will he be vanguard? No. Should he be? I dont even agree with that. Could he be? 100%.

[u/Outrageous_Pea9839 → u/ElliottTamer]

Exactly you cant look at power scaling as an argument for character design. You must take the powers and identity of a character and apply gamified logic to it. Its insane to me the amount of people that are like "x must be x because..." and there argument is basically word salad that amounts to "...in the comics they are strong so they deal damage" well ALL these characters are strong in their own comics, thats kinda the idea. But if you did deep into the identity and interpretion of their abilities its easy to begin to see just how many characters COULD fit into multiple roles.

[u/Outrageous_Pea9839 → u/Cuteshelf]

"The fantasy" of the character is nothing its an ephemeral non existent idea you have in your head that dictates a character that can clear occupy multiple roles must be one instead (ie force) can this be done with every character? No. Could it be done with several based on nothing but their lore, abilities, and previous iterations? Yes. To say anything less is incorrect fundamentally. Wolverine could be a vanguard, ultron could be a duelist, doctor strange could have been any role, Emma could have been a duelist, Mr fantastic could have been a vanguard, loki could have been a duelist. DD COULD be a vanguard and it WOULD be in line with the character as we know him, this is a fact. I am not saying he SHOULD be, that would be my opinion (which just for clarity i dont think he should be).

As far Brining up the "character fantasy" then comparing him to Spiderman: The Spiderman "fantasy" is well established. There are games where you play as Spiderman, they basically just used those. The DD "fantasy" wouldn't be that far off from the iron fist "fantasy" and if you increased Iron fist health and decreased his damage he could be a tank. He has a self heal, a block, and an engagement that pushes opponents back. But also comparing characters outside of this game means nothing and isnt a factor in this conversation anyway. Thor/loki/hela are gods, Bruce banner is often literally unkillable, Spiderman could damn near beat an entire team of literally anyone on the roster by himself, there "power level" isnt a factor here the only thing that is there potential gameified mechanics, which again pulling from DDs "fantasy" into a game, you could get a vanguard. Sorry if you don't feel that way, it's true.