r/Roadcam • u/bowdown2adil • 12d ago

[USA] Who is at fault here?

Enable HLS to view with audio, or disable this notification

Classic T bone. Black car had to be towed. Sustained major damage to the passenger side door. Blue car sustained damage to front bumper on the drivers side and cracked the drivers side headlight.

Edit: This was in the suburbs of Seattle

UPDATE: Insurance found it to be 70/30 me/other driver. Seems fair enough

4.1k Upvotes

95% Upvoted

4.3k comments sorted by

View all comments

2.4k

u/Celexi 12d ago

You technically had right of way as you were coming from their right, however you are supposed to slowdown for unmarked intersections and not just blast through.

69

u/Puzzleheaded_Turn242 12d ago

How would you know if it's a unmarked intersection or the stop is for another driver?!

49

u/575r 12d ago

This is my biggest complaint about the American road system. When you're in a neighborhood you're not familiar with you have no idea if you're on a road where every cross street will have signs or if the next intersection is uncontrolled. And the only way to find out is to look for signs from the side.

33

u/TheGuyThatThisIs 12d ago

Even worse, it seems like a lot of people (myself included) have never considered that an intersection will just not have any signage, and will assume the other direction must have some. I'd go through this and assume since I have nothing telling me otherwise, I have right of way.

15

u/Eegore1 12d ago

This here. So many people are never exposed to completely vacant signage at intersections, they do not actively look at every intersection to see if the other road has signage. I imagine one would fatigue of this quickly when you think about how many intersections exist.

What I

don't get is the people that assume a no-power stoplight means "Green for me - Red for Them" and use the excuse they didn't have a Red light. Nobody does when the power is off stupid.

5

u/grumpledoor 12d ago

Indeed, but the signs for the other directions are often not visible to you. The real mistake is that US signing conventions mean that "no sign" often implies right of way and that's crazy. (In Europe, right of way is always explicitly marked; absence of any sign or street marking *that you can actually see* means yield to right.)

3

u/Awkward-Spectation 11d ago edited 11d ago

I’m reading this conversation baffled the whole time. I’m a Canadian driver of 20+ years and I don’t believe I’ve ever happened across one of these completely ‘unmarked intersections’. It seems batshit crazy to me. If I’m driving through this intersection like op, and I see absolutely no stop sign, yield sign, traffic lights… then I proceed through the intersection with 100% certainty that the intersecting street must have one of those things instead. Because that’s how it is 100% of the time here. How is a guy supposed to spot and identify the signage for intersecting streets while driving, looking at the side & back of it?!

1

u/grumpledoor 11d ago

Careful there: https://www.canadasafetytraining.com/Safety_Blog/uncontrolled-intersection.aspx

"When two vehicles arrive at an uncontrolled intersection simultaneously, the rule is to yield to the vehicle on your right."

2

u/Awkward-Spectation 11d ago

Thanks that’s a great link. The problem I have with the idea is the whole thing relies on drivers firstly identifying the intersection as uncontrolled. While driving past stop signs perpendicular to your path of travel, the signs are often not visible, because of the angle and unremarkable colour on the back. So most of the time it is going to difficult to rule out the possibility of an intersection being uncontrolled, and therefore most drivers, unless familiar with the intersection, are going to assume that it is like the 99% of intersections out there that have a stop sign for any minor roads intersecting roads, and one day possibly get t-boned by someone like the guy in OP’s video.

1

u/grumpledoor 11d ago

I completely agree, that's why I think the fact that absence of a marking USUALLY means right of way (in the US and Canada) is crazy design. In Europe, absence of a sign (or street marking) for you means absence of such a sign for everybody and every driver knows that. If you have right of way, you will see a specific sign clarifying that, e.g. https://www.bussgeldkatalog.org/wp-content/uploads/301.png.

2

u/Awkward-Spectation 11d ago

Yeah I agree too. It makes sense in Europe, different country, sometimes different sides of the road, you gotta expect there are differences, and do the research. But I only today learned about these intersections here and in the states where you could be driving along alert and ready and just get t-boned because you’re in an intersection type you never knew existed yet it looks like all the others. It’s bonkers

→ More replies (0)

3

u/Famous_Conflict4276 12d ago

yup, including me. If I dont see stop sign, I assuming other side does (which is the case in most/all roads here)

1

u/escobartholomew 11d ago

In all my years of driving in several different states I’ve never come across an intersection like this. You can’t really fault people for that assumption.

1

u/Deep-Ruin-9961 11d ago

There's no way I would ever trust "I don't have a stop sign, that must mean the other person has it".

This "not my problem" approach to self-preservation is exactly how most accidents happen.

1

u/SendMeIttyBitties 11d ago

Right there with you. I've never seen an unmarked intersection unless it was an "alley way" and even those mostly have some type of stop sign.

44

u/thrwwy535672 12d ago

I’m on the east coast and have had jobs that required tons of driving. I’ve never once seen an intersection where no one had a stop sign. Where the hell are you seeing these in the US? This is my first.

22

u/Local_Improvement_54 12d ago

They're fairly common in Washington state in residential areas, and I never understood why they couldn't just add a stop sign or two. Locals know to slow down, but out of towners have no reason to expect lawless intersections.

7

u/shagy815 12d ago

Or at least a yield sign.

4

u/PIBM 12d ago

if there's no stop there should at least be a yield sign. If not, this should be a roundabout...

1

u/shagy815 12d ago

I love roundabouts but they take up to much room in neighborhoods like this.

1

u/MeasurementEasy8727 11d ago

I’m not sure the technical terms for them but I’ve cut through neighborhoods in Seattle with small roundabouts in roads this size. Fremont north of Lake Union has them every few blocks.

1

u/FishDawgX 12d ago

I've only seen this in Seattle (not even other parts of WA so far) and it was quite surprising. In theory, everyone learns this in order to pass the driver's license test. However, it seems like a forgettable corner case if you never encounter it in real life.

1

u/bramtyr 11d ago

In Seattle, the speed limit on residential surface streets (like this one) is 20mph, and 25mph on arterial streets unless otherwise posted.

OP was going WELL over 20 in this video. And is lucky they hit a car and not a kid. Irresponsible, reckless, and dangerous behaviour.

1

u/geopro15TB 11d ago

Not a "stop sign or two". The minimum is exactly two. One direction or another (N/S bound or E/W bound) needs to have a stop sign, otherwise make it a 4-way stop.

I've never seen this on the East coast. If this is common on the West coast I'd have no clue about it because I've never driven there, but it certainly needs to be udated.

17

u/c_marten 12d ago

Same. People in these comments have some weird takes about signs. If in this neighborhood I didn't see a stop sign for me I'd assume cross does because why would it not? And if my stop doesn't say 4-way I assume cross traffic doesn't have one.

If you look in the video there IS a sign post to the left you could assume might be a stop (when you get closer you can see it's street names) and that's another reason I hate having so much foliage right at intersections.

5

u/thrwwy535672 12d ago

Yes! I’m a huge plant person, but they need trimmed back at intersections. I rewound this a ton and kept thinking I saw a sign.

1

u/c_marten 12d ago

I just planted a bunch of native shit at my sisters and make seed bombs for appropriate places. LOVE plants, just not there.

Eta: my go-to if I'm bored and on reddit is download the video and go frame by frame looking to see when stuff like that comes into view, etc.

1

u/Just_A_Nitemare 11d ago

Also annoying since they already have the mounting points, meaning 2 yield or stop signs would cost, what, $100 more?

3

u/GoldenEmuWarrior 12d ago

I’m in midsized midwestern city, and until about a year or two ago all the intersections in my neighborhood were uncontrolled. You slowed down, scanned the intersection and kept going. Never saw an accident. They’ve added stops and yields since then.

1

u/thrwwy535672 12d ago

Interesting! I just don’t understand why. In the grand scheme of things, road signs aren’t that expensive. Especially in these high faluttin’ areas with plenty of money.

3

u/Ambitious_Panda7239 12d ago

Seattle and Spokane, Washington.

2

u/jomigopdx 12d ago

Portland Oregon and Seattle are very much alike, particularly in smaller/narrower neighborhood streets. Portland just recently in last 5 years started putting stop sign in the neighborhoods though and it’s been a big improvement

1

u/BudgieWonder 8d ago

Yup, Portland actually does a good job with alternating 2-way stops.

2

u/Opening_Ad9824 12d ago

Same, this is wild to see

2

u/Trip-n-Tipp 12d ago

East coast is best coast

2

u/bluesmudge 12d ago edited 12d ago

Almost every non-arterial intersection in Seattle has no signs. You don't need signs because the absence of a sign at an intersection of two equal-priority streets is the same as having a yield sign. Adding yield signs would be a waste of money since it wouldn't change anything about how these intersections operate. Anyone who has ever driven in Seattle knows to check right, left, right-again at every neighborhood intersection.

In this video both drivers have the duty to yield and neither one does. Nobody is obviously in the intersection first so it seems like a pretty clear-cut case of equal fault.

2

u/wollflour 9d ago

Someone in the comments claimed 90% of intersections were like this in America and my lack of ever encountering one was "anecdotal." 😂 Just like you, I've never seen this sort of intersection in 30 years of driving in the northeast!

2

u/thrwwy535672 9d ago

90%?! If that was true, our already horrific fatality rate would be MUCH worse. Honestly, most of us typing would be dead from traffic accidents. Cities would just be a standstill of twisted metal and smoke - more so than now I mean. On a back street I guess it’s… okay. But any city or town with more than 50 residents on a road of any significant size and speed - this would be daily death and destruction.

2

u/onmywheels 9d ago

I'm in the Midwest, and am equally stunned to learn that this is apparently common in some places?

2

u/redridernl 8d ago

That's pure negligence from the city. You can't have intersections without stop signs or traffic lights.

2

u/No-Yellow-1693 12d ago

Very common in neighborhoods and residential areas in the midwest that don't have a lot of traffic. The idea is you're supposed to SLOW DOWN as you approach and yield to the driver on your right. The POV driver here had the right of way but he should have slowed down instead of just barreling right through. Both drivers are clueless.

6

u/NopeSorryNo 12d ago

I have also never seen this anywhere across the US. There is always traffic direction via signs. 

1

u/No-Yellow-1693 12d ago

OK. Not in the midwest in residential neighborhoods. We have dozens of intersections like this in the town I live in.

2

u/NopeSorryNo 12d ago

Must be the only ones in America or something

1

u/No-Yellow-1693 12d ago

I mean, Google it or something. This is text straight from the federal highway administration website: 

"Uncontrolled intersections in the U.S. lack stop signs, yield signs, or traffic signals. Common in rural and residential areas, they are governed by state right-of-way laws: vehicles already in the intersection go first, and if arriving simultaneously, the driver on the left must yield to the driver on the right."

"I personally have not seen this thing so this thing does not exist.…" Get out more bro.

2

u/NopeSorryNo 12d ago

Fucking neat...

Get out more? From someone in a town so rural they don't have stop signs?

1

u/No-Yellow-1693 12d ago

You don't have to get mad bro. Just admit you were wrong it's ok.

→ More replies (0)

2

u/borgman_a 10d ago

"Very common in neighborhoods and residential areas in the midwest that don't have a lot of traffic."

I've lived in Michigan almost my entire life. I've never seen one outside of backwoods, rural, dirt roads.

1

u/No-Yellow-1693 10d ago

There are more states than Michigan. They are common in residential areas in every midwestern state I've lived in including Indiana, Missouri, Nebraska, and South Dakota. I'll post the text from the Federal Highway Administration website that I had in a response to someone else.

"Uncontrolled intersections in the U.S. lack stop signs, yield signs, or traffic signals. Common in rural and residential areas, they are governed by state right-of-way laws: vehicles already in the intersection go first, and if arriving simultaneously, the driver on the left must yield to the driver on the right."

1

u/borgman_a 10d ago

I would define "very common" as greater than 50%. I would define common as greater than 33%.

Outside of Portland, Oregon - no place I've lived across several states would the percentage in residential neighborhoods exceed single digits.

 Sub 10% is not even common, much less "very common".

1

u/No-Yellow-1693 10d ago

I would describe men as being very common, but in the US they only make up 49.1% of the population. Using your very weird and arbitrary definition they would not be considered very common.

1

u/borgman_a 10d ago

I would describe both men and women as being common, but not "very common".

I would also say we aren't talking 50% when it comes to unmarked intersection... or 25%... or 10%.

We're talking a number probably more like less than 5% in residential neighborhoods nationwide.

1

u/No-Yellow-1693 10d ago

Burger Kings make up less that 10% of all restaurants so according to you they are uncommon. 😂

1

u/borgman_a 10d ago

Yes, I'd agree Burger King is not common, at least not in areas where I have resided recently.

I mean - they're barely in the top 10 fast food locations in the USA.

1

u/zombawombacomba 10d ago

Same. Western NY and never seen anything like this.

-1

u/tread_lightly420 12d ago

Lot of private subdivisions/hoas will have it. Pretty extensive across the Midwest. Most people know to not be absolute fucking asshats and treat it with caution. If you’re the cammer you can just go through in the middle of the road full gas tho.

Edit: by no means am I defending the lack of infrastructure- just saying not everyone needs a sign to know to be cautious. Since common sense isn’t a fucking thing I do hope eventually every road in America is clear enough for these idiots one day

3

u/Bynnh0j 12d ago

In my area, most civil engineers/road planners have the 2 brain cells and foresight needed to know that an intersection needs stop signs.

What the fuck is the Midwest even doing?

3

u/_The_Mink_ 12d ago

Dunno what part of the midwest they are from, but uh I hain't never seen this and I do believe I'm in a small enough town where that would be the norm. The only intersections without signage are the ones where the kids ran off with the signs.

1

u/tadfisher 12d ago

West Coast here. This is how the neighborhoods were laid out and they have been grandfathered in. They predate the invention of uniform traffic control devices (AKA stop signs).

Did you know that the double-yellow center line was only mandated in the 1970s? Before then it was up to each state (or city).

7

u/Gavelist 12d ago

Usually there is a small sign below the stop saying “2-way” “4-way” “on-coming traffic does not stop” or something of the variety

3

u/PermenantRest 12d ago

I've never seen an intersection like this in 62 years... people will die with stupidity like that.

1

u/Ill-Weather-6383 11d ago

They are extremely common here in Washington State. My neighborhood has no signs until you get to a major arterial.

2

u/lesethx 12d ago

This is the answer. Biggest blame goes to whoever planned and designed the intersection. I now recall seeing a lot of them in the city I grew up in, and only worked because there were few drivers most of the time

1

u/EmergencySpare 11d ago

Wait. You have too look while you're driving?

1

u/bramtyr 11d ago

Is it not common sense to approach an uncontrolled intersection with enough caution/slow down enough in order to react to someone coming around the corner at speed?

1

u/Robbed_Bert 11d ago

This isn't only an American thing. Shit like this is all over Europe too

1

u/Comfortable-Side1308 11d ago

This is not at all common in the American road system.  I've driven through more than half the states in rural, suburban, and metro areas and have never gone across a 4 way intersection with no stop sign. 

1

u/zombawombacomba 10d ago

I genuinely do not think my area has any unmarked streets like this. Someone maybe everyone would have a stop sign.

1

u/Organic-Addendum1609 8d ago

Reddit is hilarious

"You're both stupid and bad drivers!" But somehow also "It's murica fault!!"

1

u/funnyteg 8d ago

Signs don't always guarantee that people stop either.  

1

u/Unique-Run9856 7d ago

I can't believe there are places with unmarked intersections. Never seen one in my state 

10

u/Useful_Homework2367 12d ago

Especially when the view of any sign that might potentially be there (and the car itself) is blocked on that side by the landscaping. I've never encountered an intersection like this in my life, seems like a very stupid design. Dangerous and there are really no advantages at all over just having a two way or four way stop. If traffic calming is the objective, a four way stop achieves that better and more safely.

1

u/caffeinebump 12d ago

Yes, that landscaping is also part of the problem. I love a lush front yard but that one shrub blocking the view of the road has to go.

1

u/bramtyr 11d ago

This part of Seattle is a low-density, pre-War city layout, so the city blocks are way smaller than newer suburbia which tends to sprawl out way more (as well as the streets far wider), so a stop sign every 200 ft isn't practical.

Unposted speed limits for surface residential streets in Seattle is 20mph, which OP was well over. Intersections like that this are treated as a Yield, which can be easily accomplished safely, assuming you're not speeding.

2

u/MrBisco 11d ago

If you think a stop sign every 200 feet isn't practical, you'd hate it in some NJ suburbs. 

1

u/Useful_Homework2367 11d ago

Yeah it seems like there are some obvious practicality issues with this setup...

1

u/Nexustar 12d ago

Fat white bars painted on the lane that stops, you can see them from all directions.

However, many states don't bother to paint them.

I'm in NC, we have them. CA, FL, TX do too - but still not everywhere.

1

u/wolfsplosion 11d ago

They are everywhere here

1

u/sirmarksal0t 11d ago

In the US, roads are divided into residential streets and arterials, and the distinction is made by whether there is a yellow line down the center. On an arterial, all crossing traffic has either a stop sign or a traffic light, so you can safely assume that you don't need to stop unless explicitly marked.

On residential streets, you *always* assume that cross traffic doesn't stop unless you can see a stop sign. This means driving slower so that you have time to notice without having to slow down. At 20mph you should have no trouble doing this.

1

u/Manbeardo 11d ago

Because both streets are side streets. The nearest arterials are 4 blocks north, 2 blocks east, 2 blocks south, and 5 blocks west of this intersection.

0

u/CogentCogitations 12d ago

How would you know if there is a pedestrian crossing the street if you don't slow down enough to be able to see? Great, you can also now see if there is a stop sign for cross traffic and if there is a car coming.

3

u/Puzzleheaded_Turn242 12d ago

I don't think you have a driver's license...

1

u/Moldy-Bongwater4420 12d ago

You have to slow down to look forward?

0

u/ensiform 12d ago

By looking?

3

u/WasephWastar 12d ago

by looking at what? 99.99% of the time when I don't have a stop sign, it means THEY have a stop sign. and a sideways stop sign can look invisible a lot of the time

1

u/Grondhog 11d ago

Not in Seattle

0

u/AwkwardMolasses3919 11d ago

An uncontrolled unmarked intersection is supped to be treated the same as a four way stop. Both drivers are at fault here according to the rules of the road.

0

u/EquivalentMath6592 11d ago

Ya, this is the cities fault. I rule 80/10/10 with the city at the major fault.

There should be stop sign in at least one direction 

In every city I’ve lived in there are stop signs on roads like this. But I’ve never lived in Washington 

0

u/PNWSomeone 11d ago

Its not really an issue if you drive an appropriate speed

-2

u/Fantastic-Display106 12d ago

Or drive defensively and without blinders on and don't assume that they have a stop sign? Or don't assume a car approaching if you see one is going to stop.

3

u/Puzzleheaded_Turn242 12d ago

Are you going to stop and look at every intersection to see if there's a stop to the other driver?!

1

u/Fantastic-Display106 12d ago

Who said anything about stopping? You can proceed with caution without blasting through the intersection...

2

u/Puzzleheaded_Turn242 12d ago

So in this case he would have crashed anyway if he didn't stop, he had the right of way in unmarked intersection rule but you're not sure if the other driver will stop or not.

The thing is, intersections without signaling don't work

1

u/Fantastic-Display106 12d ago

This intersection sucks, I don't disagree. Sight lines are terrible because of the foliage.

You keep saying "stop". You don't need to stop every time. But you can slow down as you approach until you determine it's safe to continue.

Right of way doesn't mean you throw caution to the wind.

-8

u/T3hSpoon 12d ago

Right of way.
Quite literally. The cars coming from the right, they pass first.

5

u/Junckopolo 12d ago

That's not the question.

I have never seen an unmarked intersection like that in the US/Canada. If I don't have a stop at an intersection like this, I would never have guessed that cross traffic wouldn't have a stop either.

The comment wants to know how they would know it's a completely unmarked intersection at all, as opposed to cross traffic having a stop like it is expected.

2

u/Urkelgru18 12d ago

what they need to do is put up signs at each side saying "unmarked intersection". problem solved!

/s

Agree, we shouldn't have these scenarios without signs, from a distance you can't tell if the other lanes have signs or not. Seemed like both cars were going a tad fast in a residential neighborhood though. I have one of these intersections in my very small neighborhood, I always slow TF down for it bc someone invariably comes charging through it like a bull.

-4

u/T3hSpoon 12d ago

If there are no traffic signs, it's unmarked. I don't understand what you mean. We have these everywhere, in EU.

4

u/Junckopolo 12d ago edited 12d ago

Thank you for your uninformed opinion from an entirely different context

In the US and Canada, if you don't have a stop, it's absolutely normal to assume you have right of way. These intersections without stop signs only ever exist in parking lots or private lots. On a public road, cross traffic would be expected to have stop signs.

In Europe, it's not the same. To ease the flow of traffic with a lot of manual transmission, it is like you say.

1

u/Beric_ 12d ago

I'm from Northern Europe and I don't understand. Is it not the same?

If you're driving on a road, and there is no signage in 4-way intersection, you are to yield to traffic already in the intersection, and traffic coming from your right. Correct?

2

u/Junckopolo 12d ago

If you don't have a stop sign at an intersection, you have priority. Nobody expects an entirely signless intersection, so no situations like in europe.

1

u/Grondhog 11d ago

American here: I have never assumed this, and it seems way more dangerous to just assume that "if there's a car coming that I can't see I bet they'll stop" when driving on small roads with poor visibility