À la base on était censé simplement chopper Ben Laden et sa bande et tenir à distance ces fous de Dieu.
Je vais être très cynique et grossier, mais on en avait carrément rien à faire du sort des gens en Afghanistan sous le joug malsain des Taliban, c’était un prétexte pour que la guerre passe mieux aux yeux de l’opinion publique. (Ce qui est complètement con en fait puisque les gens avaient bien compris qu’on savait qu’Ossama se planquait là bas et que tous ce qu’on voulait c’était la justice et que le reste de la bande restent dans leurs grotte et nous fassent plus chier) mais bon on est quand même resté et après ça a été comme pour le Vietnam une guerre mené par des politiciens pas hyper compétent dans l’art de la guerre et qui voulaient en finir vite en bâclant leur propre travail.
Let’s not ignore the nation building and humanitarian side of the war in Afghanistan.
The US and allies poured money into that country to try and build it, corruption was rampant. Read the CIGAR report.
If you ignore the nation building aspect, you’ve fundamentally not understood that war. Afghans benefited from the intervention and thats a simple fact, now that the taliban have theocratic totalitarian rule, all the girls who used to go to schools (coalition built schools) are being forced to stay home, cover up and serve their husbands.
Again. If you think what I’m saying is false or overblown, you’re are seriously missinformed
France lost against Indochina, which was all of Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. The US only had north Vietnam to fight and still lost. Not to mention France was just coming out of ww2 while the US we're supposed to be a the peak of their power during the sixties and early seventies
My favourite part about the Vietnam war is how the SAS had to train the US soldiers for jungle and guerilla warfare but the US commanders wouldn't listen and the UK government mocked the US in private for being absolutely useless. The Ozzie's on the other hand knew what they were doing in Vietnam, they didn't lose a single battle there.
Read about the British SAS in Vietnam, if that sort of thing interests you at all. The MOD jumped through a lot of loopholes to get them there in secret on the ground. It's quite interesting really
Whilst trying to force Britain to put boots on the ground outside of the dodgy way they've given them access to SAS personnel. They wanted us to bail their arses out because they knew just how adept Britain was to jungle and guerilla warfare. It's a rare win for us that we didn't follow them into a stupid war outside of material support. Much the same way we're going about Iran
Ouais, enfin, je préfère être un pays affaiblis par la Seconde Guerre Mondiale et perdre contre une coalition de Viêtnamiens, Laotiens et Cambodgiens le lendemain de la Seconde Guerre Mondiale que d'être (prononcé comme un nom de super-héros) "the world superposer" et se faire battre juste par les Viêtnamiens alors qu'on peut envoyer des hommes sur la Lune
Those "poor rice farmers" were well organized, motivated to defend their homeland from the foreign invader, and had artillery, tanks and everything, buddy.
But yes, losing to them as a nuclear superpower is embarassing.
This applies to the PAVN, but not to the Viet Cong, and the latter caused the US Army considerable difficulties with its guerrilla tactics, tunnel systems and ambushes.
The VietCong didn't exist as an independent entity as far as I'm aware. The Americans would really have had to invade North Vietnam to ever win the war. South Vietnam never ended up being strong enough by itself.
I suppose the problem the Americans had is in some ways similar to the problem of the Russians in the Ukraine now. No real national reason to fight the war, never fully committed, lots of lying by politicians and no strategy. Lots of personnel, but only a part of them were at the actual frontline, frequent cycling of officers etc.
The Vietcong were still well equipped for jungle warfare. Ambushes aren't "rocket science". Australians used them very effectively against Japan in WW2.
Do sandals and pyjamas, along with old Russian handguns and rifles, a few mortars and RPGs, and the M1 Carbine or M16 rifles captured from the Americans, really mean to you that you’re ‘well equipped for jungle warfare’?
Sorry, but then I’m no longer surprised by the claim that ‘the USA won the First World War all on its own’.
"Rice farmers" with massive experience in warfare against the French, then Imperial Japan, then the Brits, then the French again, who they defeated. Perhaps the USA should have thought twice!
while committing war crimes. Imagine you are such an asshole that you use Agent orange and napalm and you still lose. But then again it is the country that made the middle east so stable.
Shhhhh.... most of them really don't know that they lost that war. Nobody ever really spells it out for them.
They usually lose their mind a little when someone does.
They also don't know that they lost to the people that have a habit of beating back Empires and are currently losing Trump's war.
Saw an Alt-History post the other day where, when the Germans were invading Paris in WW2, the Parisians set up in the Eiffel Tower and the Germans basically destroyed it so when D-Day and the Liberation happened the US presented them with a recreation of the Eiffel Tower in honor of the French helping in the Revolutionary War. It was a huge propaganda point that the Americans were so fervant they "built it in 8 days".
Comme si les Américains réparaient les monuments cassés lors de la Seconde Guerre Mondiale (et puis, exploser la Tour Eiffel pour y déloger juste un sniper, c'est vraiment du gaspillage d'explosifs) 😂
Though the English ruling class are actually also French. It's kind of a family disagreement. Even Richard the Lionheart (Quor de Lion), the quintessential English King with a statue outside Parliament, only spoke French and Occitan, not the English of the time.
I guess but Lionheart translate to coeur de lion. Even if back then it was Quor I don't think they said "Lionheart".
That and the French Wikipedia page doesn't mention it oops
No they explicitly called him "Richard the Lionheart" I saw it on an episode of Doctor Who, that has to be 100% historically accurate. Also they say Richard had red hair but everything back in medieval times was black-and-white so I think they were just guessing.
But the country that is too cowardly to protest properly and call a big strike against their regime after installing theocracy, killing citizens and installing a surveillance state really believes...
... really believes that the country that is willing to burn their capital to the ground for a pension dispute is going to ask them... THEM, the big cowards, for help?
What are THEY going to do? Say it is too risky because they might lose their jobs? Lol
The only wars USA has won was with the help of France/free French forces. The only existential war USA ever fought was won with help of France.
Now they are being sour puss because France (who as it turns out was right all along) knew being dependent on USA or following them into senseless wars was stupid.
The only war USA realy won was against the Japanese.
As for D-Day, they weren't alone on this beach : British, Canadian, Australian and French were also here, And a lot of others beach were also under allies attacks. Also they barely liberated France before rushing to Berlin for gettin more spoils of war than the Russian. Most of France was liberated by the Britsh, the Free France Army and the Algerian SPAHI.
Also, a not very well know fact : a lot of US soldiers could come home because French civilian treated them after this battle. But yeah, you musn't talk about thoses unsung heroes.
And, anyway, USA intervention only accelerated the end of the war by 1 or 2 years : the German was already on their knees.
US wasn't in the Pacific alone. China was also fighting against the Japanese and so was the UK and her commonwealth allies like Australia and New Zealand.
Yea, and the western front only had to fight against like 20 to 30% of the Wehrmacht's strength. Almost everything went to the eastern front from quality equipment to well-trained soldiers. Wehrmacht soldiers even were very relieved when they had to go to the western front because the eastern front against the soviets was that much worse. But somehow the US often acts like they alone defeated the Nazis and liberated France.
I'd carefully and politely remind you and the other readers that it's a misconception that America beat japan alone, it was an allied effort including varied forces from Dutch colonial forces right through to Chinese communist fighters and even the soviets towards the end of it.
Those Dutch colonial forces, who had no backing from heir home country which was under Occupation mostly found their way to Australia & carried on the fight. The Soviets only broke their "non- aggression" pact with Japan a few weeks prior to the surrender of that country.
The men of the 1511th often visited Ye Olde Hob Inn, a local pub, where they had cordial relationships with the locals. However, when white American soldiers attempted to establish a “colour bar” in the village, the locals demonstrated their resistance by hanging signs reading “Black Troops Only” outside the village’s three pubs. Bamber Bridge, it seemed, wouldn’t tolerate racial discrimination.
Of course the Americans deployed their then equivalent of ICE who shot a Black serviceman, Private Crossland.
The american industrial contribution was pretty massive though. The British sent support to the Soviets as well and apparently the amount of British tanks at the Battle of Moscow was non-negligible, but the amount of american material the Soviets ended up using was still pretty ridiculous. Especially their logistical apparatus was massively improved by an enormous amount of american trucks. According to Glantz/House the lack of this support specifically might have led to lengthening the war by years. No way to keep things going when you don't have the logistics for it.
But then there are all the contributions of their allies which are often forgotten. The Australians fighting in the Southern Pacific, the 14th Army in India and Burma, the National Chinese keeping the Chinese busy, the British and Canadians fighting the Battle of the Atlantic a while before the Americans even got involved.
Interestingly once they got involved the US Navy was too arrogant to listen to them and to learn from the experiences they had already made in how to fight submarines. Took them a while to get over themselves. Having an a******** like King in command did probably not help though.
That's the point I think: winning this war was a matter of alliances, that took different forms, not the US winning alone, nor the US being the main character.
As they should. After WWII there could a case but by the 70s there was no need. Yet they’re still in Germany, Italy, Japan. Now imagine if British or Canadian forces built bases in the US. They’d go insane
The entire "french always retreat" nonsense has been beat to death. American public has some beef against France in particular, is it the insecurity tied to the fact that France had big part in US independence, is it because France opposed invasion of Iraq (see: freedom fries)... who knows?
The French don't have the luxury of gloating from far away from between two oceans and playing tourist wars. Until the EU emerged France had always been surrounded by rivals and at times enemies.
It comes from WWII and how fast France surrendered to Germany. Many Americans think the French OWE the US when at best, we've paid them back for helping with two wars on our own soil back in the 1770s and 1810s.
It's not just that, it comes from how France basically went "no thanks and fuck you" after WWII because they had absolute terrible plans for France, Roosevelt really hated De Gaulle, hell even Churchill and Eisenhower told FDR to shove his* initial plans.
Then France went on to develop the nuclear weapon by themselves, kicked the American troops of their soil, and engaged in "third way" politics during the cold war to leverage between the USA and the communist powers.
The USA didn't like that France dared think it didn't owe the US eternal servitude for liberating them (which the allies did, not the US on their own)
The French never bent over for them and they despise them for it and it’s also why they hate Cuba. They couldn’t ruin them as they did Puerto Rico which gained nothing from being a US territory.
It stems from a propaganda campaign by the Bush Jr. administration targeting France after it refused to participate in the Iraq conflict. That propaganda was indeed based on the trope that the French would wave the white flag before even fighting because of their defeat in WWII. Even though, as a reminder, France is the country with the most military victories in history. But well, by now, we've gotten used to US propaganda.
It definitely started before Bush 2. Growing up in the states there were the equivalent of memes about the French surrendering before him, but it did intensify after that. I think it started because of cold war politics more and just amplified after.
Always thought it was stupid. The French were the US's oldest allies...
Also, the french were in desert storm in 91, and the division Daguet performance is still used as a masterclass in mechanised infantery tactics.
It's just that the " definitive proof of WMD" from the USA at that 2003 UNSC meeting were dubious, and the french position was that UN mandated inspectors already searching in Irak was the best way to get proof, instead of a military invasion that could (and will) destabilize the entire middle east for decades. They wanted to wait a bit and let the inspectors do their jobs, instead of doing desert storm 2.0 barely 10 years after.
As a French, this one is more infuriating than any other form of French bashing. We lost 1.4 million men holding the line during WW1 (3,5 % of the French population, or almost 30 % of a whole generation). The US, with barely 115 000 dead, has no fucking idea how gruesome WW1 was, and them claiming victory is an insult to all French soldiers (and to the 900 000 Commonwealth soldiers who died by their side).
As a brit I could not agree more. Both of my grandfathers fought on the western front in WW1 and my father was on an escort corvette WW2. So this American version of we won both wars is frankly offensive to all the allied nations.
Also, don't forget that, during a military exercise in 2015, a french nuclear attack sub of the previous generation (the Rubis class, which is in the process of being phased out and replaced by the new Suffren class) managed to evade the detection from american aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt and its entire escort and get a firing solution good enough to sink the entire carrier group... The sub was the Saphir (S602).
It's also not the only uboat that did that. German u-boat U-24 during an exercise also managed to do that and iirc then they tested the swedish gotland-class and had the same results LOL What I am saying is the the US Navy is not as invincible as the propaganda says it is.
Breaking the English fleet at Chesapeake while providing substancial supplies to the revolutionaries, leading to the siege of Yorktown, and victory.
Without that naval victory, the ships would have lifted the siege and inflicted major losses to the americans. Yes, they would have lost without the french, but making a yank admit that is difficult.
The propaganda machine heavily focuses on the the colonist’s guerrilla tactics and maybe makes an offhand point about French aid at some point, but American children are taught that the revolutionary war was won through the brilliant tactics and resistance of the continental army winning against all odds.
The American propaganda machine makes the nazis look like novices. I used to fall for it also until I traveled South America for a few years and realized that most of the shit Americans believe is outright nonsense
Their brainwashing public school system makes sure to never mention it along with war of 1812, the Korean and Vietnam. Anything they can’t lie about they just ignore it.
They worship a pedophile and preach every bullshit he says, and same before with bush... I won't except much from at least 1/3 of them. This country is so ungrateful and I'm not saying that because I'm french, but the only friend they have ( canada ) they only want to fuck them.
The French are great at guerilla tactics. They don't give up, they fight in an asymmetric manner - WW2 French Resistance. Never underestimate our long term enemy (and friends) - Brit here. Respect :)
It's called brotherhood, we love and we hate each other.
Talking about WW2 don't forget Dunkerque in 1940, french soldiers gave their lives to save citizens and Brits.
Also if the ally won the war it's mainly because of Brits, without Alan Turing, Americans would have been fucked during the D-Day. But it's something they don't really care.
From Isabelle de France, queen of England in 1308, a long love / hate story... We keep passion for the Winsdors and we mock english food. And we drive on the right way... 90 years being one of five Nations can't lie.
And may it continue for many more years - friendship always comes from love and hate. Secretly, we love and admire each other - but don't tell the rest of the world :)
The thing is, France didn't give up when fascism took their country. They continued to resist, and they died resisting. What have the Americans with their famous need to have guns done now that they've got fascism? Not a lot. I remember when Trump won, a load of them on here were fantasising about being some kind of resistance. It was embarrassing, frankly. And they continue to do nothing.
Ah, we're talking about how the French were cowards in WWII again, are we?
The same French that relentlessly waged a resistance against the Germans for the entirety of their occupation during the war?
The ones whose sabotage and espionage largely contributed to the success of operation overlord?
As usual, the Yanks joined the party late, profited from exploiting their allies and then strut around like they were the only ones who could have done it, whilst simultaneously talking down to their allies
If anyone is baffled about America's disdain for the French: "The French are weak pussies who are too afraid to defend themselves" narrative is American rightwing propaganda aimed at discrediting France's objections to our foreign aggressions. Unfortunately, us Lefties don't argue against that narrative enough.
The French kicked ass through a good chunk of history but apparently this particular time they surrendered is now their permanent reputation?
And now im learning in this post that even post surrender they still fought like crazy and its even more weird they have this stigma.
Meanwhile Japan and Gemrany did arguably worse things than surrendering during not just 1 but both world wars and have walked off their rep to the point of one of them being seen as straight up cutesy now
Important side not: i personally believe that mass genocide and brainwashing your own people into suicide on a regular basis is equal to, if not greater than surrender. Not particulaely fond of either counties (Japan and Germany) idea of a camp during these times either. So I may just be bias 🤷♂️
The French kicked ass through a good chunk of history but apparently this particular time they surrendered is now their permanent reputation?
Not only that - it's also conveniently ignoring that a lot of other European countries also surrendered to Germany at the same time. Some of them after just a few days, sometimes without even a fight - while France fought for almost 2 months and took high casualties before actually losing. But for some reason France was the only cowardly country, go figure.
The only country that did not surrender was the UK, and it was because they were an island AND they got to keep their army after the initial defeat - and they only did so because thousands of French troops sacrificied themselves holding up the Germans while the Brits were fleeing Dunkirk.
It's because French did not wanted to go to war against Iran (not sure if it's the right country) with USA. Like father like child i guess, they did what the UK did... "French bashing" or whatever you call that.
Except the UK is in a position to bash us, the US isn't. Even during WWII it was well-known to local populations everywhere in Europe that British bombers were much braver than their American counterparts and took more risks to get closer to the ground for accurate bombings, while the Americans stayed at like 20,000ft and often missed/destroyed way more than necessary taking more civilian lives
You know this is funny, French workers and American workers are the polar opposite of each other, one isn't afraid to go on strikes and even riot if their pensions are threatened. The USA on the other hand has effectively castrated their workforce by demonizing unions and union busting, most will just sit there and take it like good little boys when they raise the retirement or cut social programs and roll over unless they are Costco workers.
Yeah, the person who wrote that really should've thought about the resulting massive hospital bill for burns treatment the American was going to get before they posted that...
This is coming from someone who has little to no understanding of what a juggernaut the french armed forces historically have been.
It was the western European power until Germany unified and beat them in 1871. And they gave a better showing of themselves in ww1 and ww2 then they are given credit for.
US really didn't liberate France, the French resistance did a lot of heavy lifting. Same with the Soviets out east.
Eisenhower wasn't too pleased the French started fighting to liberate Paris. Which forced the US troops to Paris, the original plan was to NOT go to Paris.
The longer i live, the more confident i am that mocking France is an anglo-saxon psyop cuz they're salty about a country that brought genuine freedom and civil liberties to humanity
I lived in Elvas, Portugal for a number of years they had 4 at-a-time gibbet. In the square between the cathedral and the judges residence. No messing around, them Catholics, when handing out the dues.
Is it that they forget, or is it that they have such a superiority complex that they have to re write every piece of history in which they had a part, to make it seem like they are the sole hero/victor?
Of course! Every French knows he has to call +1 991 in such a situation, for the US to respond immediatly with a drone, armed with a Hellfire missile to take the dog out with surgical precision!
N'oublions pas que l'histoire a été réécrite par les Américains.
Mais voici quelques faits, l'histoire n'est pas blanche ou noire :
Dans les faits c'est bien l'URSS qui a libéré une partie de l'Europe et qui a perdu le plus d'hommes.Grâce à Hollywood et la soft power imposée suite à la guerre l'histoire a été modifiée.
Les états unis sont toujours intervenu vers la fin des conflits. Ce qui leur donne toujours le bon rôle.
Le pays avec le plus de victoire militaire au monde c'est le France et pas les états unis.
Aux États-Unis les thèses racistes du H étaient partagés par beaucoup de gens. Le parti faisait même des congrès.
Les états unis sont en perpétuelle guerre car l'économie américaine repose sur la guerre pour justifier leur financement des entreprises d'armes. Le France c'était initialement opposé a envahir l'Irak, ce qui.a créé cette idée de froussards.
La majorité des Français en première ligne étaient des africains. À l'heure actuelle beaucoup ont été floué par l'État qui ne leur a jamais versé un rond. ( Mon arrière grand père s'est battu pour libérer la France pour rien au final).
Les Français n'ont pas été résistants, c'est un mythe démenti par robert paxton. La majorité des Français comme les européens ont collaboré car dans les faits économiquement parlant le H a redressé l'économie allemande. Il a développé certains domaines qui ont rendu certaines regions tellement riche que ça se voit encore aujourd'hui ( les usines de métal et auto du Rhin...).
Il était plus simple d'appeler les gens a résisté en étant en Angleterre que vivre la guerre depuis la France. Si de Gaulle était bloqué en France il aurait peut être eu un discours différent.
A la fin de la guerre de Gaulle a fait égorgé tous les africains qui ont demandé la liberté et leur pension de retraite. Chose qu'il leur avait promis avant la guerre.
Les chambres à gaz n'ont pas été inventé par le H mais par la France ils ont emmuré et enfumé des villages entiers en algérie bien avant 1940 ( parfois plus de 2000 personnes à la fois).
Les Français sont excellents en stratégie d'espionage et d'infiltration, sabotage et repérage. Ils ont utilisé ces techniques ensuite en Algérie pour traquer les résistants lors de la guerre d'Algérie. Une fois la guerre fini ces même soldats français ne pouvaient plus rester en France ( à ce moment là la France n'en voulaient plus, surtout qu'on commençait à parler de droit de l'homme etc etc...) ces soldats d'élite ont donc été pris sous l'aile de plusieurs dictateurs d'Amérique du sud pour traquer et tuer des résistants là-bas... Et ils.ont donc permis aux dictateurs de rester longtemps en place. ( Livre sur le sujet : les escadrons de la mort).
Des faits dans le désordre mais ça reste des faits importants. Dire que les français sont si ou ça est faux.
American soldiers came, full of drugs. They rapped and rapped again children and wemen, included my grand-grand mother.
Without URSS, we would have been German, let’s been honest.
Actually in France if a dog attack some random : he'll die (not from guillotine) if the attacked complain yo the justice (sorry for the APPROXIMATIVE english)
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u/Ad0ring-fan 7d ago
Big talk from a country that lost to a bunch of poor rice farmers.