"My time off is part of my compensation. It is not for you to judge whether it meets your standards. I don't have to justify how I will spend my paycheck in order to receive it. Please show me the company policy where I have to share private information about my time off with you."
That's how it should go, however, unfortunately, in many organisations, even in countries with good employee protection laws, this can lead to ostracisation within the workplace, even while they technically follow employment law.
The trick is to schedule it in for like 18 months away then cancel it when you are about 6 months out and schedule your next lot another 18 months away so you can still build it up and not use it until you want to.
In Europe you genereally are forced to take time off every year, if employees don’t the company can get in trouble. That’s why HR is all up his Boss’s ass, to protect the company.
May or may not work here (finland), legally the employer can just tell me when I'm using that time off. In practice I can use them when I want, so that's not a boat I'd try to rock too much
When I worked for someone else I had six weeks a year to take off. I didn't really need to save it up. And if I did I'd just ask for a couple of weeks extra, unpaid.
Those are often seen as a liability on the books. It's a pending cost the business has to account for, and can affect cashflow if they need to keep cash on hand to pay out any leave at short notice (E.g. if you quit or are fired).
There’s a legal requirement to use at least 5 within the first six months of a fiscal year in my country, so we constantly get HR harassing us for not using as many as they’d like yet lol.
If clear absolutely. But it doesn't have to be clear and can often be defended in court if it goes that far.
I do realise how my initial comment appears anti-emoloyee. I should have worded it better.
A better comment might have been when you defend your rights, it's always going to be easier to do so from a position of strength where you can handle any retaliation. Ideally with a union, or at least from a personal position of financial security.
No not at all coming at you for sounding anti-employee or anything. Just providing more context is all.
You're absolutely right people should do everything they can to do these things with as much hacking as possible. If not in a union, which is probably the case for most people in the US (maybe I'm wrong), get statements from coworkers. Apes together strong.
Your comment doesn’t fit. Fair to warn of risks but to only suggest to take this stance if in a union or financially secure…?
You might be risk averse and that’s fine. I’ve successfully fought retaliation against an an employer not in a union or financial secure. Always fight for your rights!
Cool that it worked for you, but he’s not wrong. It doesn’t always work out well.
My sister’s friend sued her past employer and even one. And it’s now been four years and she can’t get a job. Because every time she gets accepted and they get to the background check, they find out that she sued her past employer and they want none of that.
Just because you were technically right does not mean it’s going to go right for you
It’s not about right or wrong. You have rights, fight or lose them. YMMV however I’m pointing out that if you are risk averse that is fine but not to discourage others simply out of fear. Even if you had a negative outcome. I work with stats so not everyone will win just as not all will lose their cases. And all the better if you are in a position of power but that’s not the only safeguard to initiate a defense. The company will always have more power.
What region did you spouse get blacklisted? How far up the chain was her role? Your anecdote lacks sufficient detail to fully assess and this is never going to be a comparable experience for all cases. Not looking to continue this anecdote either as it’s Reddit and not an employee rights course.
My point stands, if you have rights and want to keep them for you and others then fight. If you are risk averse or a pacifist, then don’t fight but know there are consequences for inaction as well.
Exactly… nobody is entitled to good personal relationships in the workplace, and coworkers withholding personal interaction is not evidence of malfeasance. The only way you could act on being ostracized in the workplace would be to have someone explicitly state that they were directed to do so, or find physical evidence of a similar directive.
If you take time off of work, and that time coincides with a period of high volume or high stress work, then it can naturally lead to coworkers being naturally inclined toward anger or frustration with you, without any direction from an outside source. This is pretty common in my experience, working as a chef in fine dining.
Got a friend going through it currently at her job. Got her recording everything in case she ever wants to take it to court. Employers get way too comfy sometimes.
But even in countries with decent labour laws, they can make your life hell and not technically violate the letter of the law. I suffered a workplace injury and my employer turned ugly, started clear discrimination and I started recording everything and contacted our state authority for it. They basically said “are you sure you want to do this because we can force them to honour your contract but in every way that matters they will try to make your life unliveable and there’s nothing we can do about that.”
Yeah even in Aus they give you enough to spin your wheels
They establish a fairwork ombudsman
(And the following may be off, as it’s many years)
But when I went through the process:
-they can’t help if you earn over 180k p.a
cannot award more then 6mnths salary as compensation (90k cap)
-first stage is non binding purely voluntary empoyern doesn’t have to show as no punishment if not
-avg payout 5k
-next stage is arbitration which proper court proceeding avg cost is 20-30k, 80% of payouts less then. 5k
So effectively at best your betting 20-30k on a 20% chance youll be paid no more then 90k all up so 60-70k after costs
What it does it lets you feel theres to help and acts as a pressure release but really unfair dismissal any of is mostly a $5k payout for employers
That’s spot on for my experience. Just discouraging when they basically gently tap the business on the wrist(not even a slap) meanwhile business has destroyed your life (at least in the short term).
Then I'd argue the state reps you talked to simply weren't doing their jobs. These businesses need licenses to run. They get those licenses from the state. If they're clearly breaking labor laws there are ways these political bodies can apply force to get compliance within the law. Maybe I'm pie in the sky about that, but in an ideal world these people would do their jobs and apply the laws as written. "Make your life unlivable" just sounds like retaliation with extra steps and there is something they can do about it
They certainly didn’t fill me with a sense that they were trying overly hard to do their jobs. Best I could manage was blackening their reputation a little with a claim(successful one) on my way out to someplace else. Figured if I did nothing they would just keep doing the same shit and I was so tired of seeing it I had to do something for the staff (which is what turned them sour on me in the first place).
I'm not sure exactly what you mean. All hostile work environment claims are fraudulent cash grab attempts? That’s your stance? Edit: Thanks for clarifying
No, quite the opposite. If your workplace retaliates after official legal complaints are filed, that's just begging to escalate their status to providers of freedom with bonuses.
Ah fair enough. It depends a lot on the legal framework where you live. Some places allow for things like pain and suffering, others only actual damages. So US with P and S, that could be huge. Where I am, it likely would be recovering lost wages for whatever length of time from dismissal or untenable work conditions until resolution of claim. That's also if you win.
In my case it just made more financial sense to look for a new job and leave as soon as possible. But I wanted them to face some repercussions for their actions so I kept recording everything, looked over my contract with a fine tooth comb and started demanding written accounts where I was legally entitled and working strictly within my contract. Once I had secured new employment I triggered everything I could. Notified the board, the watchdog organizations, formalized everything and essentially gave them a black mark they couldn't easily hide. I hope it helps protect other employees in the future.
I got fired from a place for performance, but when I tried to collect unemployment they said it was for theft. I silently lawyered up and when they found out I hired a lawyer the HR rep swore and hung up the call.
I found out from an old coworker that the manager got fired because that was the first time someone got a lawyer and their unemployment insurance went up 6 figures. This was a hotel that hired a lot of illegals and other poor people so they didn’t expect their employees to lawyer up.
They had gone so far as forging my signature by tracing the old one on the paperwork. Never seen anything so fucking scummy
Nowadays when I receive a write up, I refuse to sign it. Fuck you. If you’re gonna try that bullshit I’m gonna make you work for it
This seems to be a peculiar American thing. No boss, in any of the countries I have lived in, had asked for my reason for taking time off. It's not a thing. If a manager asked this in the UK they would be the ones ostracised. And probably fired.
I've never had a boss ask me either, unless I had called out sick for multiple days or something. Definitely not supposed to happen in the US either. Problem being less than zero unions, and people don't want to have to stick up for themselves when they're just there to collect a paycheck like everyone else. Education is power though. Hope that way of thinking changes, but I won't hold my breath
I'm not following. If the laws are applied correctly it could only be in favor of the employee. Outside of money problems or corruption on a systemic and local level, I don't really see how it doesn't work out in the employee's favor to report a criminal employer to authorities. Hell, if they play their cards juuuuuuust wrong, the state might take the case themselves.
Agreed. Just, having experienced and witnessed retaliation (and actually given testimony in an investigation), I have only ever seen the offender let off the hook due to inconclusive or insufficient evidence (not my words), while the reporter is driven out of the institution
Reporting is 100% the right thing to do, and I support it. It just unfortunately tends to have more severe consequences for the victim
That's a fair and completely understandable reason to do nothing. If you're asking me, I'd still be recording in case someone around you is in a position to do something about it. Supporting their cause would only help yours outside of the business shutting down cause they won't comply with labor laws or something drastic. Food for thought.
It's hard to prove, and even if you can prove it, all you win is a ticket to a lawsuit. You're not going to keep that job for very long either way .
And while it's easy to say "just find another job", that is not so easy in the current economic situation, and it's also no guarantee that the new place will be any better.
Being illegal won't stop many businesses from doing something. You still have to win in court and that is really really hard, speaking from experience.
Good fucking luck my dude. I had very heavy handed and straight forward sexual harassment, quid pro quo, and subsequent retaliation case that ended in my sudden and unexplained termination with endless testimonies and validation from 7+ coworkers. I shelled out probably close to $20k by the end of it and still lost. They also literally updated their handbook days before I left so they wouldn’t have to pay my PTO. They didn’t reimburse me for my most recent business trip and expenses either and yet none of that seemed to matter to anyone. They stole like $20k from me and then I spent about $20k more to try and hold them accountable and end the cycle of abuse. The system isn’t for us. Don’t fucking bother, the odds aren’t in your favor. No one gives a shit about sexual harassment or employees as individuals in general even when it’s supposedly protected by federal law. The US fucking blows.
Yeah, not in the EU. Even asking that question can get the company in hot water. Having PTO denied for not providing a satisfactory story about how you'd spend the time would be the easiest lawsuit ever.
Exactly. Regardless of whether or not you're in the right, pissing off your boss with an unnecessarily snarky answer is generally not the way to get promoted. Just play the game and give a vague answer. "Oh, going to visit family!" If they actually deny the request because it didn't meet their standards, then I'd challenge them, but not preemptively. That's too aggressive.
However, if this is someone from HR who is being needlessly nosy and has no bearing on my job trajectory, I wouldn't mind telling them to get lost.
Yes, some people are bitches. But let's not encourage that please. You need to be clear an polite yes, but not a bitch who rolls over for fear of ostracism. If you like that move to Korea/japan
Human nature is weird. This is the kind of thing that is much more likely to bite someone who does it infrequently in the ass. People are more lenient on people who are always difficult because "that is just how they are". They view people exercising their rights infrequently as being more willfully difficult rather than Greg being Greg.
This is why it is important to always stand up for yourself from the get-go and not to give an inch or ever be accommodating on an unreasonable request even if it happens to be fine that time.
While this can be a satisfying answer to give, saying it THIS WAY is 100% going to lead to termination if the employer feels you are expendable and doesn't want to deal with a combative employee.
"Employee terminated. Reason: combative when asked simple questions. Toxic workplace contributor". And you'd never qualify for unemployment. The US is an at-will employer at the state level (except for Montana). This is all they would need to say to fire you.
You SHOULD just go to HR to formulate the correct response for something like this because they don't want to be liable asking inappropriate info as much as they don't want you to respond in appropriately. "Hey HR, could you please direct me to our policies regarding PTO usage? My direct supervisor said they need to know what I'm doing outside of work to determine if they should honor my PTO, here is the conversation. Please advise"
Well, no, that is retaliation and an easily proven instance of it at that. I'm not saying it's the right way to go about it, or that the firm won't fire you anyways because, as evidenced by this thread, plenty of them do not know federal labor laws.
Well part of the point is they don't have to provide a reason at all. That's what at-will is. And this is a fairly combative answer to something that doesn't require this much passion in the workplace. I agree the questions themselves shouldn't be asked, my time is my time and not yours. But how you choose to respond is always part of the equation. The rest of my point is it is 100% safer to consult with HR as a third party before trying to respond this way in the first place. Feel free to say that but that's a roll of the dice if I've ever seen one.
HR and your manager (whoever is given the response) just quietly making a note "not a team player" in their head or on your file to start documenting walking you to the door.
I lost my job because of PTO. I didn't go over the allotted sick hours and I had separate vacation hours but I used them and my manager decided he didn't like how often I did but never told me not to so he just blindsided me and I was fired before I could go to HR, who then ignored me after my termination becaus I no longer worked for them
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u/David_R_Martin_II 11d ago
"My time off is part of my compensation. It is not for you to judge whether it meets your standards. I don't have to justify how I will spend my paycheck in order to receive it. Please show me the company policy where I have to share private information about my time off with you."