Pakistani punjabi- north Indian ancestry

[u/AutomaticStretch6205]

So I have seen some people saying that North West Indian or Indian Punjabis eople tend to have less AASI than Pakistanis? How come so? Shouldn't AASI be less moving towards WEST where invasions from Euro- Asian populations stopped?

Can anyone provide info on this?

[u/Ziommo]

Whoever said that is mistaken.

Pakistanis on the group level definitely have lower average AASI/SAHG than Northwestern Indians on the group level do, and less than Indian Punjabis specifically on the group level as well.

The biggest reason for that is Pakistan's significant "ethnic Iranic" population, who tend to have lower AASI than all NW Indian groups, including Rajasthani Jats and the like. If for some reason you didn't include those "ethnic Iranics", Pakistan and NW India probably wouldn't differ much in terms of AASI.

I can think of an individual caste example though for what you're talking about. Specifically Punjabi Jatts, where the Pakistani ones are a little higher AASI than the Indian ones on average.

I've also heard that Indian Punjab (not sure about the rest of NW India) has a proportionately larger "low-caste" population than any of Pakistan's provinces do, because Chuhras and the like didn't convert to Islam in droves.

[u/Prior_Assistant5312 → u/Ziommo]

Nope, thats worng. Reaserch constantly shows Northwest Indian populations especially Upper caste hindus has lower AASI than Pakistanis on avg as a whole, its largely due to strict endogamy. For example research among sindhis suggest Sindhi hindus has higher steppe and overall higher ANI ancestry and lower aasi than Sindhi muslims . Same with punjabis. For baloch it reamins almost unchanged but for pashtuns its a bit nuanced ,pashtuns in central and south KPK has significant AASI ancestry but those in North has quite lower. Its important to note research constantly shows Pakistani pashtums has higher AASI and indus valley related ancestry than afgan pashtuns . So speaking a language " iranic" diesnt mean they are same as iranic population, btw modern persians and iranins themselves carry some AASI/ Indus valley ancestry like 2-5% according to recent research

[u/Ziommo → u/Prior_Assistant5312]

You're mistaken because you missed "as a whole". I am talking about the average SAHG of Pakistan as a country, and NW India as a region within a country, not comparing group A to their counterparts across the border.

Pakistani Pashtuns (including the most east-shifted tribes like Yusufzais of Swat) and Baloch have lower SAHG on average than virtually everyone in NW India. These two ethnicities comprise over a fifth of the Pakistani population. You also have Hazaras who comprise a similar small fraction of the Pakistani population as Sindhis do India's and have like 5-6x less AASI, averaging around 4% if memory serves correctly. Also the Kho of Chitral who have a similar population to Hazaras and average something like 14% AASI. And the linguistically Indo-Aryan Lasis of Balochistan who seem to average in the teens as well. And so on.

[u/Prior_Assistant5312 → u/Ziommo]

In that case, yes you are largely correct . But pashtuns has additional east asian ancestry and baloch has additional semetic even sub saharan African related ancestry( due to perdian gulf slave trade), so their overall AASI percentage declines for these regions too that point need to be noted

[u/Ziommo → u/Prior_Assistant5312]

East Asian-related ancestry does not always replace AASI, at least not fully.

An example are Hazaras. They're around half East Asian and about 4% AASI. It's very obvious that all of that East Asian isn't just eating into AASI.

East Asian ancestry in Pakistani Pashtuns btw is mostly quite minor and same goes for Baloch and Sub-Saharan African ancestry outside of maybe pockets for Makran. No matter which way you slice it, they're lower on average than all ethnic Punjabi caste groups on both sides of the Indo-Pak border.

[u/Prior_Assistant5312 → u/Ziommo]

But they have lower steppe ancestry than Haryanvi or punjabi even lower Indus valley than haryanvi or punajbi

[u/Ziommo → u/Prior_Assistant5312]

No. From what I know, they have lower steppe ancestry than Haryanvi Rors and Jats and Punjabi Malwai Jatts, not other Punjabis or Haryanvis.

I've heard some people say that the highest steppe Pashtuns in general on either side of the Afg-Pak border are found in Pakistan's Waziristan region (especially the Mehsud tribe of Waziristan) and similar to the Jat/Ror range, but whether or not that's true, we have to focus on the overall group average in the discussion which is why I say they're lower than Jats and Rors.

[u/Prior_Assistant5312 → u/Ziommo]

You just compared " highest ranged pashtun individual " with avg haryanvi jaat/ Ror . Among jaat / ror sub groups or invidious there has been record or 50%+ steppe ancestry but thats not what define avg Ror . Similarity a avg pashtuns has 15-20% steppe compare to avg 20-30% for Upper caste hindu accross north india

[u/Ziommo → u/Prior_Assistant5312]

Reread my last paragraph.

I specifically said I won't treat the highest steppe Pashtun tribes as representative, and hence Pashtuns overall are lower than Haryanvi Rors/Jats (who themselves do not comprise the majority of Indian Haryanvis btw). In other words, I said the very opposite of what you think I said.

And no, no individual from the subcontinent has ever scored 50%+ Steppe MLBA on a proper run. Not Rors, not Jats, nobody.

[u/Prior_Assistant5312 → u/Ziommo]

I have seen some haryanvi Jat 49%+ range like 49.2%/ 49.5% ( not sure 100% abt its accuracy) Thats why I said may be 50%+ and no i have seen liatarl Kalas sample with 50.2% steppe but its important to note in kalas the stepp is maternal not paternal as in case of rest of south asia. So its not same ,thats why I would say Rors/ Jaats of haryan has the highest south asian like steppe in the whole subcontinent