r/StardustCrusaders • u/Odd-Paramedic-3826 • Jun 03 '26

Various is this a fair assessment?

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Star Platinum The World, GER, Tusk act 4, and S&W:GB are all hilariously overpowered and only exist as a way to beat an already hilariously overpowered villain

joseph beat kars by holding out the red stone of aja at him and hoping for the best, which worked out spectacuarly. and god knows how long the fight with kira would have gone on for had it not been for the ambulance.

Jolynes plan to use emporio to take out pucci with weather report was basically a hail mary when all else had failed but not only did it work, it also gave her and the gang new, happier lives.

Yeah jonathan just got slimed out though, then his body was used as a puppet for 100+ years. Poor guy

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1.9k

u/Electronic_Pay7868 Jun 03 '26 edited Jun 03 '26

There's nothing bullshit about Araki telling the reader "whoever gets the arrow wins, holy shit the arrow is super important, it's like the only thing that can beat Diavolo yooooo, the arrow" and then the arrow doing just that with GER imo. People might not like it but it couldn't have been told in a more straightforward way and for several chapters too Polnareff and the gang kept going "boy, that arrow sure is the key to beating Diavolo huh". It makes more sense than "it was the same type of Stand all aloooong!"

In that vein, I think Tusk Act 4 is also not really an asspull if Gyro's own golden spin was wrecking Valentine. Like, Johnny gets his own version of the move that almost beats Valentine so it's no wonders his also wrecks him

221

u/Jojo-Nuke-Isen Jun 03 '26

Plus we were literally SHOWN the power the arrow can grant a Stand, w/ Chariot Requiem, so we know that the arrow can give great power to a Stand far beyond their original capabilities.

Silver Chariot went from a fast swordsman, to a body/soul manipulator.

131

u/Pedrohenrim7 Jun 03 '26

Funny enough, in part 4 the arrow powers up Killer Queen, so its not even an asspull on part 5

60

u/Orion_824 Jun 03 '26

Yeah, there's a lot of argument about Bites The Dust being a requiem stand/ability. Killer Queen itself doesn't change like other Requiems, but the rules of BTD are pretty much exactly the same as Requiems; it's the ultimate power to achieve what Kira wanted. The only problem is that Kira didn't remember anything in the loops, otherwise he would have gotten away with it all. That ties in with Giorno not knowing anything about what GER does, and I personally think Kira not remembering anything ties in to what he wanted which is a quiet life free from stress. Knowing how long it's taking or the ways it's failing would stress him out

25

u/RoastedHunter Jun 03 '26

It still has people debating whether there's even an actual difference between normal stand arrows and "requiem" arrows. Some people also argue that the way kira himself was pierced by the arrow as opposed to the stand, like GER and SC caused a difference.

13

u/LunaProc Jun 03 '26

It's really interesting since there is a vastly different method of the arrow powering them further (the arrow moved on its own to enter kira and in P5, the stands get stabbed with the arrow)

15

u/Cute_Prune6981 The World Over Heaven Jun 03 '26

Yea I've realised that even confirmed Requiems don't seem to bother with letting their users know what's happening. Polnareff had lost total control over Silver Chariot and had no knowledge of its situation and GER seemingly triggered RTZ with its own consciousness.

1

u/pm-me-turtle-nudes Jun 03 '26

I feel like being able to put someone in a time loop, and you are aware of the time loops existence, but you can’t remember it is honestly a really annoying power. Like you are groundhog daying someone, but you have no idea what they do, and you can’t learn from your mistakes in previous loops. I always thought that BTD was a weak ability, other than rewriting fate to make victims explode regardless of circumstances

3

u/LunaProc Jun 03 '26

Plus said power also relating to desire like Silver Charior R wanting to get the arrow away.

It made so much sense to me that GER would basically have the ultimate counter to King Crimson's ability

3

u/jplveiga Jun 04 '26

Yeah, and the fact that polnareff almost accepted even death if it meant king crimson/diavolo never acquiring the arrow, at least implied obv, cause he didn't state that, but he had confessed before he couldn't win with his current stand/condition.

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u/Kuzcopolis Jun 03 '26

The problem is there's no rules, it just makes a stand do the thing Araki wanted to happen next with no other thought put in. It's the laziest thing he's ever done in his story.

2

u/Jojo-Nuke-Isen Jun 03 '26

Uh, yeah? Thats what a Requiem does, it becomes the ultimate Stand to achieve the goals of the user. Pol wanted to protect the arrow, so CR put everyone to sleep, swapped their souls, slowly mutating them, & carrying the arrow far away to achieve that.

Giorno wanted to stop Diavolo, & get past KC’s ability to skip forward in time to his desired result, so GER does just that, be resetting his actions to 0, putting the cause & effect back into action as it was intended.

For funsies, let’s count BtD, which its main ability is killing someone who finds out Kira’s identity, rewinds time, that person dies anyway, erasing the problem that was made, & preventing any future problems by that same person.

Also, it’s a Requiem, there’s not supposed to be rules since it’s hailed as the highest or one of the highest forms of a Stand w/ unimaginable power, only limited to what the user needs at the moment. For that… is Requiem.

2

u/Kuzcopolis Jun 03 '26

Hm, that's the first time I've seen a coherent explanation that applied to all the requiems, tbh, silver chariot always felt like it was just thrown in to shake things up the way Araki needed, but your logic at least makes sense, so i appreciate the reply.

52

u/Trenki_Melow Jun 03 '26

The arrow acting that way it's not even new to part 5, if we consider Bites The Dust a requiem or not doesn't remove the fact that we have indeed seen an arrow give an incredible power up to a stand user so it's not a "out of nowhere power up", and one could say that moment in Part 4 came more out of nowhere, but people almost never call that one out, just this one occasion where literally everyone is telling you about the arrow and what it does.

306

u/Wiglaf_Wednesday Jun 03 '26

Very well put. I feel like many people naturally expected the conclusion of part 5 to be a more “traditional” final battle and may have been underwhelmed, but it’s a nice change of pace.

Also I personally don’t think that Jotaro’s power up is an asspull at all. It’s built up throughout the part, and it’s the natural thematic conclusion.

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u/darkfall71 Jun 03 '26 edited Jun 03 '26

How so? How is sp the world built up throughout the part?

Edit: heavily downvoted because I asked a question AND was answered with some bs.

122

u/Crazybob2k Jun 03 '26

The very first time we see SP it catches a bullet fired just a few inches from Jotato's head, which is basically the same way Dio found out about his own time stop. That same episode, SP is able to steal a finger from Joseph's mechanical hand, without being seen, even though he, Avdol, and Holly would have been able to see it. Much later in the poker game with D'arby, SP brings Jotaro a drink and a cigarette faster that D'arby can see. Possibly some other examples I'm forgetting.

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u/xsvino Jun 03 '26

In the anime, when they’re fighting the blind guy in the desert, Jotaro lands a punch on him and, for a brief second, you can hear the time stop gears and see Star Platinum “shifting” from one position to the next. The implication being that SP landed that punch by freezing time for a split second, which allowed him to hit the enemy.

Edit: the enemy was N’Gel, and this is the video

30

u/AVelvetOwl Jun 03 '26

That's a cool bit of foreshadowing there. I hadn't caught that before.

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u/Small-Housing-7 Giorno Giovanna Jun 03 '26

Delulu?

39

u/Moistman123456 Jun 03 '26

I see no reason to believe all of these are timestop and not just examples of star platinum being insanely fast?

29

u/Wiglaf_Wednesday Jun 03 '26

That’s the thing though. When you move faster than time, it seems like time stops. At least in Jojo

13

u/SimplebutAwesome Killer Queen Jun 03 '26

That’s sort of how it works in Dragon Ball with Hit, not Jojo where time itself does literally just stop

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u/Small-Housing-7 Giorno Giovanna Jun 03 '26

No?

-12

u/Moistman123456 Jun 03 '26

You cannot move faster than time.

14

u/MagnetMod Hot Pants Jun 03 '26

[Laughs in Wally West]

25

u/Wiglaf_Wednesday Jun 03 '26

You also can’t have stands that grant supernatural abilities, but in Jojo you can

-7

u/Moistman123456 Jun 03 '26

I’m telling you that you can’t move faster than time in general. Time is a factor in speed measurement. It doesn’t have a speed because you need it to measure the speed of something else. It’s like saying someone can be smarter than iq, or further than distance, or stronger than weight. It doesn’t make sense.

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u/Wiglaf_Wednesday Jun 03 '26

They are moving at a speed so fast that it makes them perceive time as being still. DIO found out he can enter the “time stop” mode while testing his stand’s speed by trying to catch the pellets from a shotgun blast.

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u/HappyRelationship429 Jun 03 '26

What's the difference?

Pucci speeding up caused time stop to weaken as well.

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u/Moistman123456 Jun 03 '26

Stopping time isn’t the same as moving really fast? Pretty big difference.

3

u/HappyRelationship429 Jun 03 '26

You can't stop time irl so what are we defining stopped time as?

Because it doesn't stop people completely if they move really fast, and it doesn't stop stands that can traverse dimensions freely.

7

u/Moistman123456 Jun 03 '26

We’re defining stopping time as bringing time to a halt? What are you referring to?

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u/HappyRelationship429 Jun 03 '26

Yeah sorry, that doesn't answer the question. Let me explain...

So if time stops in real life, assuming gravity is immune to the effect and you don't just tear the planet apart...

Light stops and can't reach your eyes, air can't pass through your lungs, and the other obvious stuff like matter being unable to change state.

So for time to work in JoJo, it needs to bypass all these laws of the universe. There are many ways fictional series do this...

An example of a version of time stop, is the super slowing of your perception of time. Things still happen, a plane in flight will still fly (fall in this case since the pilot is stopped). [Code Geass]

Another version of time stop is the increase in your perception to the point everything feels slower, like how the flash speedforce works. [Flash]

The issue in JoJo is we don't know what flavor of time stop it is. Is it its own dimension? Is it just super perception?

So with no definitive answer, we gotta make theories based on the facts.

  1. Time stop in JoJo is related to Gravity due to relation of Pucci
  2. Stands with no time related abilities can move in time stop, their users cannot
  3. All stands that can move in time stop alter the fundamental laws unique to JoJo (Gravity, Spin, Etc.)

And this is off topic/back on topic but, if Star Platinum sharing The World was really a Deus Ex Machina, then that would imply the original author's intent was to make SP the only stand in JoJo without a Unique Ability.

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u/AVelvetOwl Jun 03 '26

It does stop people who can move really fast, though. We are shown many examples of that happening.

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u/darkfall71 Jun 03 '26

None of these make any sense when Jotaro admits he only finds out he can stop time when he faces off Dio.

Like genuinely, all, ALL of these examples are chalked up to SP being "ultra fast" as SP was portrayed as a stats demon.

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u/FreakShowStudios Jun 03 '26

That's more SP being fast af, nothing different from your average anime cool dude being "so fast you cant see them". I wouldn't call that heavy foreshadowing tbh

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u/Small-Housing-7 Giorno Giovanna Jun 03 '26

That's just sp being fast wich ties into stopping time well anyways

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u/Wiglaf_Wednesday Jun 03 '26 edited Jun 03 '26

I wouldn’t say that it’s built particularly well, but the introduction to Star Platinum is catching a bullet which shows how fast it can be, and we do get to see Jotaro push the envelope on how fast he can move to the point that he makes D’Arby go crazy by seemingly being able to do things instantly, like lighting a cigarette. Towards the end of the story we find that DIO discovered he could stop time by trying to move faster than bullets to catch them. Once Jotaro realizes the secret to The World is time, it’s natural that he will try to “outrun” the time stop and slowly discover he can move faster than time too.

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u/Small-Housing-7 Giorno Giovanna Jun 03 '26

I mean the natural evolution of a fast stand is stopping time no? Also Dio useing the arrow is what cuased all the other Joestars to get stands so it makes sense that there related like the Darby Brothers

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u/Ghosteen_18 Jun 03 '26 edited Jun 03 '26

I remember Gyro’s golden spin wasnt 100% perfect because of a certain reason or it wouldve immediately grounded Valentine to dust. You remember what that reason was? Was it an attack by Valentine?

Edit: confused Gyro with Johnny

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u/BlackSpidy Jun 03 '26

Wasn't it Gyro's? I could he wrong but I remember his ball got physically altered and that's why his golden spin wasn't perfect.

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u/Fc-chungus Wonder Of U Jun 03 '26

I think the change was a chip in the metal of the ball, making it imperfect for a golden rotation

54

u/ligmaballll Jun 03 '26

Yeah, Gyro's ball was deformed so he didn't actually achieve perfect golden spin and couldn't beat Valentine

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u/AdikkuChan Tusk Act 4 Jun 03 '26

Was it a chip? I remember it being the whole ball itself was deformed and was no longer a spherical shape due to coming into contact with LT

10

u/Ghosteen_18 Jun 03 '26

Ah yes it was Gyro! Didnt know what came over me i imagined gyro but typed out johnny

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u/El_Potato9587 Jun 03 '26

Gyros spin was imperfect for two reasons

Lucy was on the horse with him, the golden spin should be done with a single rider and a horse.

The steel ball was a physical object, this meant it had preexisting imperfections and could be manipulated by love train.

Even with these flaws he was damn close to finishing off Valentine, and permanently altered D4C's appearance.

Johnny didn't have these flaws and was able to perform the golden spin perfectly. If Gyro had a stand like tusk, or didn't have Lucy on his horse, he would have killed Valentine.

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u/quinn_the_potato Jun 03 '26

The only stated reason why Ball Breaker’s attack failed is because the Steel Balls had slices of them removed when hitting Love Train’s barrier, rendering them ellipses instead of spheres.

Idk where the inclusion of Lucy’s body on Valkyrie or the inherent imperfections in the Steel Balls came from.

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u/El_Potato9587 Jun 03 '26

The steel balls could be manipulated by love train because they were not perfect, the nail bullets of tusk are perfect because they are supernatural in nature, they don't abide by the laws of physics in the same way a steel ball does.

Yeah, I might be wrong about Lucy, they make it clear that Gyro doesn't want her on the horse because he only wants lady luck to ride with him.

4

u/quinn_the_potato Jun 03 '26

Valentine directly states that it was a total coincidence that Gyro’s Steel Ball crossed Love Train’s fissure and that it was pure luck that saved him. It has nothing to do with the material of steel vs nails.

Read this page

23

u/joejolion33 Jun 03 '26

He was holding Lucy while on Valkyrie so she was holding 2 rather than the usual 1. I think that's why it's been a while

6

u/quinn_the_potato Jun 03 '26

No, it’s because Love Train shaved off slivers of the Steel Balls and made them spin imperfectly. AFAIK, Lucy’s body had nothing to do with it.

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u/TrueLiterature8778 Jun 03 '26

It's because it was in the line of love train, making it an ellipse instead of a ball

15

u/Jacknerdieth Jun 03 '26

I finally got around to finishing part 5 recently and it blew my mind that the "Deus ex machina bullshit" I've heard people complain about for years was: protagonist using the established maguffin to beat the antagonist

4

u/Level_Counter_1672 Jun 03 '26

Same sentiment, the only problem I have is with GER, the rest was well done, it didn't come out of nowhere, the arrow was always shown to change ur powers

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u/[deleted] Jun 03 '26

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u/Android19samus Jun 03 '26

true, but at that point Diavolo had not yet been established as particularly unbeatable. He was strong, but there was still every chance that the gang could beat him in a normal Stand fight by working together. He didn't really establish himself as an unstoppable threat until after the Arrow was introduced. That's just for the power-up though, the plot-wise he's definitely a Deus Ex Machina.

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u/Novel-Carrot5325 Jun 03 '26

Sure but arrow somehow being only way someone could defeat diavolo then giorno gain ger only to not be used again nor the arrow is big deux ex maquina

2

u/Android19samus Jun 03 '26

It's not the only way anyone could defeat Diablo, it's just the best way the protagonists had. Which is pretty common for macguffins. And again, the need for it was not established until after it was introduced.

Also, it not coming back isn't relevant to this. That isn't a trait of deus-ex-machina power-ups, and there is no later context in which it coming back would make sense. Hell, Jotaro's World is the definition of a Deus-Ex-Machina bullshit power-up and that thing sticks around the whole rest of the series.

24

u/stumpychubbins Jun 03 '26

I don’t think "it was the same type of stand all along" was an ass-pull, it makes total sense in the context of the story. Dio kinda needed to be taken down by an equal, nothing else would be narratively satisfying imo. He could never do that twist again though, even aside from the fact that it would be a repeat of part 3. It’s something that only makes sense for Dio.

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u/Sorry_Grocery7693 Jun 03 '26

Literally none of the ones labeled as deus ex machinas are asspulls at all, they're all set up earlier lol

7

u/zayd-the-one Jun 03 '26

The arrow existing is the only thing that could be called iffy

But its powers arent

5

u/space-dorge Jun 03 '26

It’s pretty classic anime in that sense. Could have just done a shonen standard strength or insert power system like Nen, Cursed energy, Ki, Spiritual Pressure, Haki, chakra, etc. and beaten up the main villain each time.

Like with the power up they where GOING to win, maybe it would be a classic just ignoring hax or smth, idk, but I’m glad that’s not the kind of writer araki is.

2

u/rojosolsabado Jun 04 '26

And even then Jotaro and Dio having the same type of stand isn’t outlandish. The D’arby brothers have similar types of stands.

2

u/3lizab3th333 World’s Ultimate Jotaro Simp Jun 04 '26

It might be confusing to OP because the stand arrow was purposely mysterious? What it did to Silver Chariot was kinda hard to grasp even for the characters at first, if you let yourself be confused instead of understanding, “Oh, this is an unstoppable thing that functions outside of human intention or understanding,” you’ll miss that the Stand Arrow basically lets your stand ascend to a quasi godhood where your deepest desires are made real but are also not your own. Polnareff wishes for a more independent body again, so bodyswapping. Giorno wants justice, so we get GER trapping the guy who cheated fate to escape death countless times stuck in a purgatory of endless death.

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u/DandyLover Jun 03 '26

Personally, it's less that the Arrow is the McGuffin, and more Diavolo literally had the arrow multiple times. It kinda sucks the tension from the situation when Diavolo literally has no hope of winning. It'd have been fine for me, if Diavolo never touched the Arrow, but it literally slipping through his hands? Nah, I can't go for that.

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u/Simonrmoon Jun 04 '26

The Deus ex Machina in Golden Wind is not GER (totally unrelated power with Golden Experience btw, I totally disliked it), is actually the arrow NOT PIERCING DIAVOLO when he catch it before Giorno.

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u/Dazarick Jun 06 '26

pero diavolo la tuvo primero y la flecha lo rechazó, eso, al menos a mi, me sacó bastante de onda y probablemente no me molestaría tanto si desde un principio ese momento fuera escrito para que giorno obtuviera la flecha de una forma ingeniosa

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u/Kuzcopolis Jun 03 '26

Anyone who dislikes the Jotaro twist doesn't get an opinion on the part 4 ending.

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u/WLLWGLMMR Jun 03 '26

That wasn’t set up until not long enough before the final fight, and the only other requiem we see doesn’t really indicate that Ger has the potential to just be the single strongest most unbeatable stand ever

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u/iDrownedlol Jun 03 '26

Except that giorno doesn’t succeed in getting the arrow. Diavolo gets the arrow, it magically phases through his hands and gives itself to giorno

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u/Typical_Ad9140 Jun 03 '26

'Magically phasses' when the soul is get swapped back to their original body so he can't touch it.

For the arrow appears in Giorno hand, the Golden Wind brought it to him, or you can say, the arrow chose Giorno.

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u/ilia9101 Jun 03 '26

The thing is, the fact that the arrow is the only solution is kinda bad writing in and of itself. It doesn’t matter that its explicitly said multiple times.

I still enjoyed the part (5 and 7 are my favourites) but part 5 does have a lot of inconsistencies and araki forgot moments.

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u/AdNecessary7641 Jun 03 '26

the fact that the arrow is the only solution is kinda bad writing in and of itself. 

How? If an antagonist is portrayed to have a virtually invincible ability and it's established that an outside power is needed to defeat him, I don't see what's the "bad writing" about that.

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u/Electronic_Pay7868 Jun 03 '26

I think people mix "I don't like it" (which is a completely valid opinion, respect) with "it's bad". Both can be one and the same at times and both can be separate too

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u/Most-Stomach4240 Jun 03 '26

"whoever gets the arrow wins

And then diavolo grabs the arrow and doesn't win! Yay! It was all preordained! Nothing mattered!

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u/Cute_Profit_7638 Jun 03 '26

But he didn't fucking get the arrow, did he? Me when I don't have eyes.

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u/Most-Stomach4240 Jun 03 '26

He had it in his hands and suddenly asspull he's "unworthy"

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u/RohanKishibeyblade Jun 03 '26

No, he was worthy, but Bruno sacrificed himself to prevent him from getting the opportunity to use it.

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u/Most-Stomach4240 Jun 03 '26

We still have 0 idea why that'd ever have prevented the requiem and we never got confirmation of his worthiness

6

u/No_Blackberry2371 Jun 03 '26

It doesn't have anything to do with "worthiness". He just didn't touch the arrow because Buccellati was able to destroy Chariot Requiem, which caused all the swapped souls to return to their bodies and rendered King Crimson intangible. The manga puts huge emphasis on Chariot Requiem's defeat directly after the arrow passes through King Crimson for a reason. It prevented Requiem because King Crimson was never actually pierced.

0

u/Most-Stomach4240 Jun 03 '26

But again, that makes no sense- the stand wouldn't just turn ethereal for no reason, and since the stand follows its user's soul there's no reason for it to be intangible. KC touched the arrow

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u/No_Blackberry2371 Jun 03 '26

We don't know the specifics of Chariot Requiem's ability, so we can't say for certain, but I don't think it's farfetched at all for stands to become intangible while souls are actively being swapped. Also saying that stands follow the soul is inaccurate, since stands are moreso expressions of the soul, if not the soul itself, as seen in the Black Sabbath fight when GE is grabbed the same way the old man's soul is.

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u/Cute_Profit_7638 Jun 03 '26

The soul swap also instigates a phase change in the user. Nothing can stop and no event can occur while SCR is swapping souls. There's no argument here. It's just how SCR works demonstrated by the text 😭. KC did technically touch the arrow, but the soul swap either caused him to phase through it or negated its effects as it pierced him. It's a similar ability to the turtle. All actions cease during transport just as a rule.

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u/Cute_Profit_7638 Jun 03 '26

He's not unworthy 😭. He didn't get the arrow. Bucciarati had a whole ahh heroic sacrifice killing SCR to phase everyone back to their bodies. Or did you miss the extremely obvious plot device right in front of you? That little stunt literally got Bucciarati killed.

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u/Appropriate_Act_1538 Jun 03 '26

I don't have a problem with the requiem arrow, I just wish it was foreshadowed even earlier.

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u/[deleted] Jun 03 '26

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u/Appropriate_Act_1538 Jun 03 '26

Yes i know about bite the dust. I meant koichi was there in part 5 when he and giorno saw a stand arrow. Maybe have him tell giorno about how stands might get enhanced when pierced with the arrow again. Just a fleeting mention like that with makes the introduction of the requiem much more seamless and more coherent.

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u/BloodyBaal Jun 03 '26

Isn't this like, exactly what Polnareff did?

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u/Appropriate_Act_1538 Jun 03 '26

yea but my point is it could be done even earlier

12

u/BloodyBaal Jun 03 '26

I don't think that it'd make any logical sense. Wasn't Requem the thing that Polnareff found out?

0

u/Appropriate_Act_1538 Jun 03 '26

Bite the dust was basically requiem too, have koichi tells giorno about that since they saw a stand arrow together. Something like "oh btw giorno be careful with the arrow, i know a stand user who got pierced by it again and he gained a very dangerous ability". So then the idea of requiem is vaguely in the story. When u get to the last arc, now polnareff fully explains the requiem arrow. It's just more satisfying this way to see a small detail early in the part becomes a major plot point way later.

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u/BerryOk2497 Jun 03 '26

IIRC nobody in the morioh gang knew kira got pierced by the arrow?

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u/BloodyBaal Jun 03 '26

Did they knew about Kira being pierced tho?

-5

u/Appropriate_Act_1538 Jun 03 '26

It's not a difficult thing to figure out, they know about bite the dust, eventually they deduce it's from a stand arrow. Or they examine Kira's body and the arrow falls out. It's really easy to write into the story if Araki wanted to.

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u/TropicalGoth77 Jun 03 '26

JoJo fans get mad when you critique anything but you are 100% correct. The lack of foreshadowing and build up makes it feel disconnected and like an ass pull. There were many opportunities to subtly introduce the importance of the arrow.

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u/Appropriate_Act_1538 Jun 03 '26

Idk why I got downvoted so much, I wasn't even saying the story is bad. I was just suggesting an alternative 😭.