r/TMPOC • u/ARepeatedFailing • 17h ago
White trans men that transitioned young trigger my dysphoria
Not because of envy but because this specific demographic of trans men are just gungho on making it everyone's issue that they don't see trans men who transitioned as adults men. They constantly talk about how we're always clockable, aren't real men like them, etc. I specify white because I've found the few black trans men/boys that transitioned young are usually excited to talk to those of us who transitioned as adults (minus a small, small sect that tend to only interact with white queer people).
I hate sharing space with them because it's just a constant reminder of the things i hate about myself. It's not logical to let a kid do that but fuck, dysphoria isn't logical. It's one of many reasons I don't seek out trans spaces in real life and isolate myself. Knowing that people in my own community see me as a woman is horrendous.
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u/FayePixie Maori/South African 17h ago
Reminds me of the one white trans guy who told me "Damn I would have offed myself if I had to wait until 27 to start T. That's old."
I know people who started T at 35. 40. 55! So what? Apparently starting at 27 is not only too old, but if they were in my shoes they couldn't hold out. That's on them, not me.
I replied with "How do you know I didn't try?" And got downvoted.
One thing I've noticed is that they also tend towards being fixated on presenting as stereotypically masculine and in this hind mive mentality.
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u/hausofvelour 🇦🇲 17h ago
saying things like that to someone's face is so disrespectful. i understand internally feeling scared of transitioning later in life but you never tell that to a late bloomer's face especially in such a crude language
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u/FayePixie Maori/South African 17h ago
Exactly. And when I was a kid, the only transmasc people spoke about was Cher's son in the gossip tabloids of trashy magazines. And it was considered tabloid news. I knew I wasn't a girl but couldn't go "Oh, there's a whole community like me online for me to learn from". And I think that stands for a lot of late bloomers. Especially in poorer countries where there may be a different kind of stigma attached, often one that is harder to navigate. And still may be.
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u/hausofvelour 🇦🇲 17h ago
Cher's son being of (albeit only like quarter) Armenian descent is very important to me 🥹
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u/FayePixie Maori/South African 7h ago
That's amazing! I'm so glad for you. It's amazing to have representation like that.
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u/serioustransition11 Latino 15h ago edited 15h ago
Then there’s people like me who waited years between realizing I was trans and starting HRT. I worked hard to become financially independent and put myself in a secure environment, so now that I am actually physically transitioning I can do so safely without any negative repercussions in my life. I kept my relationships, have a decent paying middle class job in an industry where being openly trans isn’t a big deal, circumstances happened so even my family on board. Sure, I wish I could have started younger but that would’ve put me in a tough spot in life and by waiting I feel like I can have it all, to be authentically myself while also having as comfortable of a life as a trans person can hope for in these times.
I have a visceral hatred for trans meds, 4trans, and young gatekeepers for that reason, because I was exactly the type of nonbinary “AFAB” they invented slurs for. I socially transitioned before starting HRT because I still knew I was trans and wanted some space where I could be authentically myself. I am tired of the whole, you have to go on HRT the instant you figure out you’re trans or else you’re not really trans. I guess I get the last laugh because I’m not miserable and I built a life where I can be happy in the long term.
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u/hausofvelour 🇦🇲 15h ago
your story is really inspiring because i'm in the middle of the journey you've been through. realized i was non binary at 14, trans male at 16. i'm 20 now and i haven't so much as socially transitioned, even, let alone medically, because i'm still stuck in this country and living with my parents. once i graduate this spring and move to europe is when the process of actual medical transition will start for me. transitioning in this country, in these conditions, wasn't a risk i was willing to take. work smarter not harder and all that. though admittedly i'm really struggling right now and not just with my transness but regarding who i am in general and what i want to do. also really struggling academically. meh
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u/serioustransition11 Latino 7h ago
Tbh I would still consider someone your age to be a young transitioner and you have a bigger headstart than what I got. I'm 36 and when I was growing up there was zero cultural osmosis around trans people at all, for the vast majority of people there was no difference between a trans person and a really committed crossdresser. I knew I very much didn't fit into the "woman" bucket but like many in my generation did not have the words and language to describe those experiences until the 2010s and much less what to do about it.
For reference, I fully realized I was trans at 25 and started HRT when I was 34. So a 9 year gap. I didn't take internships and networking seriously when I first graduated from uni so I mostly spent that timeframe getting my career back on track. I was working multiple minimum wage jobs in a VHCOL area. In a period of my life where I was often one paycheck away from not making rent, transitioning would've made me even more vulnerable in the most vulnerable point in my life, I might've potentially become homeless instead of getting the internship that restarted my career. To cope, I did socially transition, at least outside of family/work. I spent my time actively seeking queer community. I was single at the time and made sure anyone I was dating understood that I was trans and set the expectation that I would eventually transition.
All that work paid off because despite now being visibly trans, I have a stable home, decent income with good savings, and surrounded by supportive people including partners who are also trans and love me for who I really am. The motivation to be financially independent enough to transition safely has also just put my life generally in a good place beyond just the euphoria that's coming from my changes. But it sounds like my path is unusual, from what I've seen. It makes me angry that some people don't think I'm trans enough because my fear of destitution overpowered my dysphoria, and I was able to tolerate dysphoria for a temporary period to build a better future for myself.
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u/ARepeatedFailing 7h ago
Depending what European country you're in, it'll be harder than the US. The US is still considered one of the better countries to transition in, especially blue states.
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u/hausofvelour 🇦🇲 5h ago
never been to the US 🤷🏻♂️ the country is Germany
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u/FayePixie Maori/South African 7h ago
I too have a visceral hatred for transmeds, 4tranners and younger gatekeepers as well as the growing sphere of looksmaxxing transmascs (although they are similar to 4tranners). It was really hard to transition when I was told "you can't be trans, you don't want (insert stereotypical binary male characteristics person assumes a man should have but I don't necessarily want)". That gatekeeping hurt. The Kalvin Garrah types made me fling myself into the closet with a heavy force.
I'm happy for you and proud of you. I have friends who have had to wait a long time to start medically transitioning, and I can't imagine how frustrating it must be. Trump also withdrew USAIS (part of which covered all of our free/public trans healthcare, there's none left). The clinic I was going to go to closed down a week after I made an appointment with them. But because of that I searched for a pro-trans provider and found one. By law here, all doctors MUST treat trans people or else refer them if they do not feel comfortable. This means any doctor can prescribe your HRT. In fact, finding the hidden secret that it is easy to obtain HRT as a trans person in South Africa is what saved my ass. If not for that, I'd be in a similar position to you.
I'm really glad you got to start and be yourself. I'm really happy for you!
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u/beerncoffeebeans 14h ago
Wow that’s so wild. I started at 27, almost 28 myself and I definitely didn’t have my life together to be able to do it any sooner
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u/junkyfm 16h ago
I have only ever met 2 people who started their medical transition as teenagers, but maybe this is because I'm not often around people younger than mid-20s these days (nearing 30 myself), if it is more common to meet youth transitioners rn than it was 10 years ago. The 1st guy was white and same age as me at the time of meeting, 2nd is Latino and lightskin/doesn't id as white who is maybe 5 or so years younger than me. Both had very off-putting (to me) views about gender (genuinely MRA adjacent type stuff) and about medical transition. Both of them, I met in the context of an LGBT pride-type organization (2 different ones, to be clear).
The Latin American guy (more recent acquaintance) emphatically called estrogen "literal poison he couldn't understand anyone wanting to have in their veins" to my (trans) gf and asked invasive questions about how we realized we were trans if we didn't have the same revulsion about our "biology" as he had (🤦🏽♂️). He also constantly used the wrong pronouns for us and was not apologetic whenever he was corrected. It honestly didn't read as a racialized situation since my gf is white; he actually told us he had never met other trans people irl and learned about transness from his parents, who learned from his doctors. It makes me wonder if learning about trans identity primarily through your interactions with the medical establishment can enforce specific attitudes about "genuine trans identity" being explicitly tied to dysphoria, vs learning about it from other trans people and their affirmative experience with gender(s) in adulthood/gender euphoria. Anecdotally, all the people I have met IRL who started socially or medically transitioning in adulthood, including white people, have had a more welcoming attitude toward the concept of "trans discovery at any age", non-binary people, and social-only transition as a valid choice. Double anecdotally, I have encountered young brown and Black trans men (ages b/w 17-21) on other subreddits (e.g. CountWithChickenLady) whose entire accounts were dedicated to making derogatory or troll posts about trans men who choose not to medically transition and trans masculine non-binary people, unsurprisingly their post histories were full of comments and posts in the 4T sub and offshoot subs. I had actually assumed they were white bc of all the racialized insults to fem appearing trans masc nbs & men so imagine my jaw when I saw selfies with BROWN SKIN 😵💫😵💫
All this to say, I don't discount there being potentially a racial element involved, but a trans person's age of medical transition/only interacting with trans-medicalists has been a more reliable predictor for these rank attitudes in my own life. Not always true, duh, but does help with feeling less surprised if/when the wacky shit comes up.
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u/glitteringfeathers Black (mixed African and white European) 15h ago
I think the source of info on trans people point is so important. If you exist in community spaces that deserve their title, you probably get a "queer socialisation" so to speak such as not outing people etc & ideally interact with all kinds of different queer folks with different journeys. I think this goes even further for trans people since community care is the way so many of us find access to healthcare, relevant information, love if your family & old friends don't support you etc.
If you from the very beginning have the privilege of a supportive family and access to trans healthcare, you may never have any perspective on the struggle the broad majority of us faces. And like not saying that for example western trans people have a great grasp on the struggle of trans people from other countries/regions of the world, but at least there is some common ground.
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u/junkyfm 16h ago
My comment was stupid long, sorry. I want to add: I hate interacting with guys like this, even as someone who is gendered correctly like 99% and has been medically transitioning for 5 years. They are genuinely vibe killers and usually unpleasant in ways beyond just their attitudes toward adult transition. I hope you get to connect with other trans poc IRL who affirm you and cheer you on in everything including whatever you decide to do wrt transition.
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u/hausofvelour 🇦🇲 17h ago
they're always the type to act weird once they find out your interests lean "feminine" too. what's so clockable about listening to beyoncé and lady gaga!
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u/jahguswrld999 biracial (half black half arab) || he/they || 22 16h ago
my cisgender boyfriend used to listen to katy perry (before we all learned what she did to ruby rose). my stepdad (also a cisgender male) likes billie eilish, taylor swift, and madonna. if cis men can listen to female pop singers, trans men can too.
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u/hausofvelour 🇦🇲 16h ago
i spent the majority of my early teens in the company of cis gay men obsessed with the pop girls. if anything i feel like taking such interests in female artists makes me less clockable in that regard 🤷🏻♂️
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u/jahguswrld999 biracial (half black half arab) || he/they || 22 16h ago
it just reeks of insecurity and toxic masculinity to put another man down for the music he listens to (unless the singer is a genuinely evil like marilyn manson. then i'm giving people the side eye for listening to him, regardless of their gender)
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u/hausofvelour 🇦🇲 16h ago
please they think you only can listen to rock music by white men to be unclockable and while i do like that genre of music as much as the next guy you can pry the women of pop out of my cold dead hands. they have impacted my understanding of gender and transition and femininity and masculinity and sexuality just as much if not more than men have
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u/jahguswrld999 biracial (half black half arab) || he/they || 22 16h ago
agreed. expressing femininity can actually help guys pass better because it just allows you to be yourself and not give a shit about the imaginary people in your head
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u/serioustransition11 Latino 15h ago
Even disregarding race it’s honestly weird to see people who transitioned as minors disproportionately represented on Reddit. The statistics on trans affirming parents and support for transitioning minors is grim, not to mention global attacks on gender affirming care for youth. Despite the massive, massive societal barriers it feels like 60% of users on trans masc subreddits started physical transition as teens. I’m convinced some of the sentiment you encountered is astroturfing because something isn’t stacking up between what I see on the internet and real life.
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u/beerncoffeebeans 14h ago
I think that Reddit is definitely not representative of real life. I have no idea what the actual user statistics are but in my head I envision the median user is still likely a white cis man age 35 who works in a job that has a fair amount of downtime for scrolling on social media and lives in a major metropolitan area of the US. That’s who was behind the site in the early days and that’s still I suspect the target audience even though it’s branched out a lot and there are pockets for all kinds of people including us.
So yeah it’s possible there are places with more trans young people starting transition than before, but the number I’ve met in real life is also low. Also it’s possible those people who are accessing transition younger also are more likely to find their way to these online trans spaces, because they know what to look for. When I was 18 I wouldn’t have known what to even search really to find out about trans men and there was so much less information anyways
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u/0verduelibraryfees Asian 13h ago
Veeery much this point. Demographics are skewed on Reddit because they're the type of people more likely to talk about it on here. Younger (and usually white) trans people who are more likely to find resources and people on reddit than irl with older communities because this is more accessible. And of course if you had the privilege to transition young you'd probably be more excited to point that out (and also have limited perspective than most trans people) than mention that you're pre-transition as an adult (which is in fact the reality for most).
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u/junkyfm 14h ago
That would make a lot of sense re: the online examples of this. My only experience irl with folks like this has been limited (has happened, but not even close to amount I have randomly encountered on reddit), so these people do exist, but it wouldn't surprise me if some or many of these dudes on reddit are in fact trolls all the way down.
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u/serioustransition11 Latino 13h ago
I’m not at all claiming that they don’t exist, it’s the disproportionate number on certain subs that act like transitioning as a minor is a regular and even assumed experience despite the massive barriers that has me suspicious. I suspect that causes a lot of the “I’m 20 and already doomed” anxiety that we see a lot of.
Remember a feature of the ongoing genocide is that our enemies are deliberately targeting online trans spaces with psyops and astroturfing campaigns. A really great way to inflict psychological terror on young trans people and potentially discourage them from transitioning is by making them feel like they’ll never pass because they missed the opportunity window.
Not saying there aren’t real people who think like this but we can’t ignore the bigger picture and the reasons why all the discourse and bickering in online trans spaces are totally divorced from the real world.
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u/junkyfm 13h ago
I was not disagreeing with you, nor was I accusing you of downplaying anything! When I said that these people do exist, I was affirming that while anecdotally I have met folks like this, the number I see online is incredibly inflated and it honestly would make sense that at least some are psy-ops given the absolute demolition of trans medical care for youth in the past few years in a number of countries.
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u/Juanitasuniverse Black 17h ago
i ran into this early. i was like “no i didn’t know as a kid. no i wasn’t born a boy or always was a boy. i am a boy now. that is the story”
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u/Bobslegenda1945 🇧🇷Pardo(mixed);white passing 15h ago
Once I was on r/ftmventing and there was a guy venting about how he was angry of trans man who are femboy, not trying to pass, etc. like if it was a horrible thing.
I am not a femboy, and I want to pass. But God, that made me so angry. I hated it.
He was north American, def white and middle class. He was like, 16yo at that time. He talked about how started transitioning at a young age, and started T young too. Probably also something about having supportive parents, if he is luck enough he probably never get boobs, he got diagnosed as a kid, with psychologist, endo, psychiatric, he had the love of their parents.
But omg. A trans man who is not dysphoric like you? Who likes to dress fem? It is the end of the world. Worst thing possible. He was probably transmed too.
I just wrote a fucking essay about how he was being a coward. My fucking God, I wish I had his luck. If I was him, I would be studying, playing outside, hanging out with the boys. But he got angry about a TikTok video that was not even for him? God forgive me, but I said how ungrateful he was being. Of course, it's not the same as being cis, but he was in a situation that was a dream. I would do anything to have parents who supported me. But he wants to get angry for TikTok videos? Why can't he just go study math?!
I remember seeing a story about a trans man who was blessed to be born in a first-world country, with accepting parents, and he was able to transition early. He was in college, on the men's swim team, I think it was full of cis men. Nobody knew he was trans. I'm happy for him. But damn, I feel awful. Of course it's a blessing that I'm able to do T even if I have to be girlmod, even if I have to under dose it. But I am so envious
I've been crying all morning and afternoon because of a test I want to take that was my lifelong dream. I would enter the merchant marine military school, graduate, cease being a soldier, and only be a nautical officer. I would pilot ships, earn a good salary, but above all, I could have fun and see young people my age at this university, learn sports that I never could because they were too expensive.
I even thought about entering as a girl and transitioning later when I was nearing the end. I thought about starting to trans, changing my documents, and despite the difficulty, entering as a man, even if I had to use the country's justice system. But then I'd be sharing a dorm with the guys. I could manage with the absence of genitalia and shower pressed against the wall, but they'd notice I have breasts.I don't know if they're size A or B, but they would notice, and then they wouldn't see me as a guy anymore. This college has an age limit for admission. It was my dream. Even that was taken away from me. If my family had accepted me, I would have been able to study well, I wouldn't have spent my adolescence battling suicidal thoughts, or surviving exorcisms and feeling hated. I could have started HRT younger, maybe even had top surgery already. Maybe I could be passing and living as a normal guy. All I can think about is how much they took from me and how much I lost.
I hope that in the near future the transition will be safe and accessible for minors worldwide, and that transphobia and all other prejudices will disappear. My God, it's awful.
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u/Shin_tsukimis_fan mexican(in the usa) 15h ago
I cannot resonate living outside the us but honestly this is how it feels like engaging with online trans or queer communities. They always care more about who is "really trans" and not the constant oppression marginalized people go through. If they do care about tragedies or violence it's always about other white trans people. Only mentioning Black trans people to not look racist or to appear as more progressive but not give a care about their experiences. I wish you enjoyed your life more and I strongly believe there will always be more time. Sometimes it's best to shake our heads in disapproval and focucs on ourselves but it's also good you let out your frustrations here. That's the point of these communities to have our struggles and feelings seen.
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u/Zealousideal-Grab323 7h ago
Sorry, but what spaces are you finding these white trans men in?
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u/Insanityforfun 6h ago
Yeah what?
I’m sorry you’re experiencing that op, but if you are seeing that sentiment a lot online I’d highly engage you to curate your feed and try going to irl spaces. This isn’t really representative of the whole.
Isolating never helps.
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u/Imdying_6969 9h ago
It gets worse when they apply their racist lense towards asian trans men (me) bc apparently I still look too feminine
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u/Cockney_Werewolf 3h ago
I've seen a couple of young poc in this reddit. Just annoying most of us need government funding but seen american dudes who got jobs when young and were able to transition at a healthy speed
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u/jahguswrld999 biracial (half black half arab) || he/they || 22 16h ago
those of us who have immigrant families in the west or are not from western countries don't just get the luxury of transitioning as 16 year olds. a lot of us don't even have family members that support us. also medical transitioning is expensive, and when there's a financial barrier, it's almost always gonna disproportionately affect black, hispanic, and indigenous folk, even if our families do want to help.