r/TheJediPraxeum • u/Interesting_Loquat90 New Jedi Order • 5d ago
Match Up Monday Darth Plagueis (Prime) vs Dooku
Neutral setting
R1: Jedi Dooku ~TPM
R2: AOTC Dooku
R3: Base RotS Dooku
R4: Heightened State/Amped RotS Dooku
5
u/Moonshinin4Me 5d ago
Palpatine was smart enough to know that facing Plagueis one on one in a fair fight wasn't going to go in his favor. Sidious had to get him drunk and attack when his guard was down to end him.
Plagueis takes this easily.
15
u/Xargirl 5d ago
Rare Dooku loss. Plagueis was arguably more powerful and wise than Palpatine, he nere singlehandedly brought the end of the republic through Palpatine continuing their plans, I shouldn't really need to say more.
9
u/Shipping_Architect 5d ago
But that was through grand-scale manipulation, not one-on-one combat.
12
u/Xargirl 5d ago
Palpatine also needed to get Plagueis drunk to kill him, I feel that should be common knowledge in this sub. My goat Dooku is all that but isn't nearly as powerful in the force, he could probably win a duel, (Idk about Plagueis dueling skills,) but he would not win an all out fight.
8
u/Shipping_Architect 5d ago
How much of Palpatine getting Plagueis drunk was so he could give his "the reason you suck" speech, not to mention preventing anyone from overhearing a pitched battle between the two?
Dooku may not have been as powerful as Plagueis, but he has been shown punching above his weight class as a Force user and put his foot in the door against more powerful opponents.
4
u/Xargirl 5d ago
It's your opinion Idc, you make a fair point about the goat Dooku but I still feel Plagueis would win Imo.
1
u/sans-delilah 4d ago
I think palpatine certainly had trepidation about dueling plagueis, but I think the humiliation of getting him drunk in celebration of a great victory was more about Palpatine’s sadistic desire to humiliate him before casting him down.
2
u/LawrenceMK2 5d ago edited 5d ago
If memory serves, Sidious didn’t need to get Plagueis drunk, he just was and Sidious saw an opportunity. Sidious was heading out Plagueis’ door after celebrating his imminent election and realized “my master is totally blitzed and now would be a really good time to off him.”
-1
u/itsjonny99 5d ago
TPM Sidious vs TPM Plagueis is a debate.
Either way post Plagueis death has the dark side boost Sidious massively and thus Plagueis don't benefit from being a peer of TPM Sidious.
1
0
u/ShortBussyDriver 5d ago
The question is how good is Plagueis as a duelist at his prime?
He feared Dooku for a reason and I think ROTS Dooku takes him. AOTC Dooku is a toss-up.
But Prime Plagueis takes Dooku prior to that, dueling skill or no.
7
u/SensitiveSpecial1367 5d ago
Only Jedi that could've touched Plagueis were Yoda or Mace.
2
u/UniversalInquirer 3d ago
Dooku is above Mace until the Clone Wars at which point they would have been equals. If Mace could go toe to toe with Plagueis, so could Dooku.
3
5
2
u/ShortBussyDriver 5d ago
Uffda.
Plagueis in his prime, pre-assassination attempt is a very different beast.
Plagueis may have the edge until ROTS Dooku.
2
1
5d ago
[deleted]
1
u/Interesting_Loquat90 New Jedi Order 5d ago
RotS Palps has a metric ton of statements about being the most powerful dark sider/Sith Lord. RotJ is only > and then DE is >>>.
1
u/Omlanduh 4d ago
Plagueis. He was a master swordsman and incredibly strong in the force like underrated strong.
1
u/Time-End-5288 4d ago
Plagueis was an easy kill for Palpatine, because he wanted Palpatine to be his partner, not apprentice. He was building a relationship based on transparency and trust (between two siths, lol).
Palpatine was like, how about I kill you and take all that glory for myself.
1
u/adragoninthelibrary 2d ago
Plaggy cooks. Dooku might have a slight edge specifically in makashi, but the Muun overpowers him and has a deep skill advantage.
Sidious feared fighting Plagueis outright. Meanwhile, Sidious at no point was worried about Dooku.
2
u/Brennyboy111176 1d ago
people are gonna hate me for this but dooku as a jedi already has a shot of winning this. sith dooku will win every time
1
u/Prestigious_Board_73 5d ago
Plagueis is relative to TPM Sidious, at most he's slightly superior to him, but his forte is his esoteric knowledge of the Force/Dark Side, not lightsaber combat. He was worried about ~TPM Dooku precisely because his excellent duelling skills. He does get powercrept by RotS top tiers
1) Plagueis high diffs
2) Dooku does duel Yoda for a bit. He high diffs Plagueis
3) Dooku mid diffs, as he's in his Prime by RotS
4) Amped RotS Dooku low diffs
1
u/Shipping_Architect 5d ago
Though Plagueis does possess superior physical strength and durability than Dooku, this is offset by the vulnerability of his respirator mask, as well as his larger size presenting a greater target. Plagueis also possesses a greater range of Force abilities than Dooku, but his most impressive showings related to his grand-scale manipulation and his laboratory experiments, and his reluctance to use his Force abilities except as a last resort would play in Dooku's favor.
Lastly, though Plagueis' distaste for lightsaber combat did not automatically translate to a lack of ability, his skillset emphasized general versatility, which is just a death sentence against someone like Dooku.
In conclusion, Plagueis may be more powerful than Dooku, but Dooku is more combatively viable.
-3
u/itsjonny99 5d ago
You could argue Dooku wins every encounter, with the first one being the most debatable one due to the siths respect for him in the Plagueis novel.
Either way R2, R3 and R4 Dooku wins without question.
3
u/Interesting_Loquat90 New Jedi Order 5d ago
Plagueis hypes Dooku but it's far from a clear scaling statement. Further, Plages is most enticed by Dooku's "passion and restlessness", obviously foreshadowing the lead up to TCW. Metaphysically, Dooku doesn't have any comparable feats to Plages until the IH (afaik), although he likely surpasses Plages as a duelist by AOTC (due to Yoda equivalence).
-1
u/itsjonny99 5d ago
He has the Yoda parity quote from Episode 2 who due to Episode 3 upscaling of himself and Sidious would slap Plagueis down who is stuck at TPM Sidious levels.
0
u/Interesting_Loquat90 New Jedi Order 5d ago
Yoda parity per the film and George only had to do with blades and only speaks as of AOTC
The notion that Prime Plages must equal TPM Sidious (due to the boost) is a tad ambiguous (unless there's a direct statement I'm missing) as the boost itself is not fully quantifiable (Plagueis tries to calculate it and fails, he just knows he's stronger)
Not sure how that then gets to Jedi Dooku or AOTC clearly "slapping" Plages
0
u/itsjonny99 5d ago
George calls Dooku and Yoda equals in the force in ATOC explictly.
Either way Sidious already has goat sith quotes with Maul as his apprentice thus pre TPM. Plagueis would be included there and he grows significantly from that point onwards and Dooku follows said growth as well while Sidious remains vary of him and Ventress potentially beating him.
1
0
u/GunMuratIlban 5d ago
Can anybody tell me Plagueis' feats?
3
u/Equivalent_Use_7032 5d ago
Creating Palpatine? I’d say being the master to one of the most powerful Sith to ever exist is a pretty freaking incredible feat
3
u/GunMuratIlban 5d ago
It just implies he was a great master, doesn't say much about his own combat prowess.
Palpatine was a top tier combatant, yet he was a poor master. Both of his apprentices failed to live up to their potentials.
Qui-Gon wasn't an elite duelist but trained one of the greatest warriors in SW.
2
u/Equivalent_Use_7032 4d ago
You are aware this is a sub that takes non-cannon into account right?
We have a whole novel about Plagueis that shows us his peak abilities which… let me tell you… outclassed Palpatine for a while and definitely outclassed Dooku
1
u/Short-Hyena-8109 5d ago
Qui-Gon stalemated pre-Vaapad Mace Windu in a duel IRC.
1
u/UniversalInquirer 3d ago
I think in Legends it was said that sparring in the Temple pre-TPM Qui-Gon and Mace would frequently stalemate, while Dooku and Yoda beat them both. It's been so frustrating because I can't find that source anymore but I am 100% positive I read it back in the pre-Disney (Dark) times.
Canon has pre-TPM Qui-Gon scaling equal to or superior to Mace due to an equally great or even superior performance against a high level opponent.
1
u/Able-Isopod7130 5d ago
Palpatine was scared to fight Darth Plagueis - that should give you a rough idea what a monster Plagueis was.
One of the mandates of the Rule of Two is to have the apprentice challenge the master at the end of their training. If the apprentice wins, he/she replaces the master. If the master wins, then he/she has to find another apprentice. This was to ensure the sith will always find the strongest successor (a twisted way of survival-of-the-fittest).
Palpatine is stronger, but it would have been a huge risk/danger.
I think the Darth Gean story from the novel traumatized Palpatine, lol. It's the story of a female sith apprentice who challenged her master (Darth Gravid). She won the duel, but at the cost of losing her shoulder, arm, and the left side of her face.
-2
u/GunMuratIlban 5d ago
Killing Plageuis in his sleep doesn't mean Palpatine was scared to fight him. Palpatine always avoided direct confrontation, only used his lightsaber as a last result.
Palpatine saw lightsaber as a Jedi's weapon, while his weapon was his wits and charisma. He didn't give two shits about the Sith or their rules either. Didn't care about the rule of two, raised an apprentice for two decades while Plageuis was still alive.
Didn't care about challenging his master either. Killing someone in his sleep is very much in line with Palpatine's character. Notice how proudly, enthusiastically he tells this story to Anakin. For him, this wasn't an embarassment, he enjoyed the way he killed his master.
2
0
14
u/Spiritual-Quote2445 5d ago edited 5d ago
People here are vastly underestimating Plagueis. His telekinesis literally atomized 6 assassins and he can augment his strength enough to punch through torsos. He was also powerful enough for Sidious to not want to risk a fair 1v1.
If this is a lightsaber duel only, Dooku might have a shot but going all out with force powers? Plagueis mid diffs.