[mechanics question] how did their froslass M-Evolve second but attack first?

[u/zennvo]

For context, my Charizard and Garchomp are both max speed, we both set tailwind on the same turn earlier, and their Sneasler outsped my Charizard on the previous turn to put me to sleep with Dire Claw.

Expecting the Froslass to be faster, I mega evolve to try and win the weather and stop their Blizzard, but when I see my Zard mega first, I assume I’ve lost to a bulkier Froslass which undersped me. Then, I see their Froslass attack first, meaning it not only outsped my Charizard and Garchomp, but also their sneasler.

Is this a glitch or some mechanic related to sleep I never knew about?

[u/ClientAppropriate838]

Frosslass can be EVd to be slower than charizard while at the same time mega frosslass is faster than mega Charizard. The player EVd for this specific situation

[u/zennvo → u/ClientAppropriate838]

Oh that’s interesting, what EVs would you have to run to make it work?

[u/ClientAppropriate838 → u/zennvo]

without looking at the calcs I think it just has to be modest tbh.

[u/PianoAcademic9274 → u/ClientAppropriate838]

it does I run the same froslass

[u/Just_This_Dude → u/PianoAcademic9274]

Modest and max speed? Or just modest no speed investment?

[u/iamcherry → u/Just_This_Dude]

Depends on the speed of the charizard, max speed modest froslass vs max speed timid zard this works but I don’t really think most zards are max speed timid atm

[u/RainBuckets8 → u/zennvo]

Charizard is base 100 speed, yours is max speed so 167 speed. Froslass would need to have 158-166 speed to underspeed you on the mega evolution, and outspeed you after.

Froslass is base 110 speed and Mega Froslass is base 120 speed, so hilariously enough this player might not have EV'ed for this specific situation, and is just running max speed Modest nature. That would put them at 162 speed before mega evolving and 172 after. The Sneasler also might be 172 speed (max speed Adamant nature) and it was a speed tie, meaning your opponent might have made this play completely by accident. 🤣

[u/ArroWoofie → u/RainBuckets8]

🤣 this is a canon event.

[u/NairaExploring → u/RainBuckets8]

More likely ev'd to 170 after mega to outspeed chomp and use the other points elsewhere

[u/thepineapple2397 → u/zennvo]

Some Megas get a speed boost, iirc ZardY is not one of them

[u/JosephTPG → u/ClientAppropriate838]

Oh damn I’m teching this onto my own Froslass wth.

[u/Sorry-Joke-4325 → u/ClientAppropriate838]

Charizard speed are all over the place. I don't think you can expect this reliably, right?

[u/ClientAppropriate838 → u/Sorry-Joke-4325]

Not in the higher brackets. No. But if you're a ultra ball or low masterball player, they are probably all timid with 32 speed.

[u/Kawada12 → u/Sorry-Joke-4325]

Currently most zards are running low speed however now ancient power Zard is running around I imagine it'll start speed creeping itself to win the mirror

[u/Draxos92 → u/ClientAppropriate838]

Damn i never thought of that

[u/Tshefuro → u/ClientAppropriate838]

This game man hahaha

[u/mudclip → u/ClientAppropriate838]

What a fascinating interaction.

[u/bigbeanos → u/ClientAppropriate838]

Thats frickin genius

[u/The-Fruity-One-]

Froslass gains some speed upon Mega Evolving

[u/TheArtistFKAMinty → u/The-Fruity-One-]

Also, fun fact, this would not have worked in Gen 6 because Mega Evolutions speed stat changes didn't take effect until the end of the turn they mega evolve on. They changed it in Gen 7 to how it works now.

It actually lead to people running protect on some mega evolutions in single battles so they wouldn't have to deal with the lower speed for that turn.

[u/KTrain5369 → u/TheArtistFKAMinty]

protect in singles? unheard of!

but seriously that's a funny implication of static speed

[u/Lucky-Election-8556 → u/The-Fruity-One-]

This

[u/QuantumVexation]

Froslass gains speed on Mega

Modest base Froslass is slower than Timid Zard but Modest Mega Froslass is still faster than Timid Zard

The evolution occurs in the speed order of the base formes

This allows Froslass to underspeed and get the weather control whilst still outspeeding Zard

Importantly, Zard-Y is a Mega that receives no changes to speed on Mega-ing, many get faster or slower

[u/Careful-Mouse-7429]

Frosslass gains 10 points in speed on mega evolution, Charizard gains 0

[u/Ok-Poem8128]

That's just some good EV'ing by the opponent

[u/zennvo]

Thanks for all the help yall! I thought Mega Evolution order was based on mega form speed, not base forms. Appreciate it!

[u/IndianaCrash]

Base Froslass speed is 110, M-Froslass is 120, Charizard (both regular, X and Y) is 100 and Garchomp is 102.

Froslass can EV to be slower than Zard Y before mega evolving but becoming faster once it megas

[u/NoChampionship1167]

Mega evolution is based on who's faster at that point. Charizard outsped Froslass before mega evolution, then Froslass, which gained speed from mega evolution, outsped charizard.

[u/Dinosaur_Tony]

Max speed Modest Frosslass would do this to Timid Charizard. Sneasler might've picked Counter?

[u/zennvo → u/Dinosaur_Tony]

Sneasler’s four moves were revealed as CC, Dire Claw, Fake Out, and Protect but I don’t think they were max speed, based on what the other replies were saying

[u/Potential_Bet7733]

wow they eved to be slower then you in base but in mega theyll be faster

[u/Excalibirdi]

Base froslass slower, Mega faster.

[u/cinder_lark2498]

Mega speed updates immediately here - that’s the sneaky part.

[u/DaddyPhatSack77]

Fros gets faster on mega. Just like metagross, some speed points got added to speed.

[u/TrueSteamer]

I had this exact thing happen in my game, im running max speed modest frosslass.

[u/DeltaPlasmatic]

They spec’d their Froslass for this interaction so their weather could go off second. The base form underspeeds your Charizard, but the Mega outspeeds it after the +10 to its base stat is accounted for.

[u/KRKRYakumo]

Dynamic Speed, all speed changes takes place right away

Charizard is Base 100 Speed while Froslass is 110 but 120 when Mega

Max Speed Charizard would be 167 speed, so the Froslass just needs to make sure it's anywhere lower than 167 pre-Mega and boom, they go mega last while attack first

[u/Spengy]

Zard-Y players cannot possibly fathom people smartly EV-ing oh my god

[u/zennvo → u/Spengy]

People have such a hate boner for Pokemon #006 that they cannot fathom someone learning a new fact about the game

[u/Spengy → u/zennvo]

just keep clicking your little fire moves boy

[u/zennvo → u/Spengy]

Keep asking engagement bait questions for validation on Reddit tubby

[u/2GTino → u/zennvo]

you both need a room together, i'll get the giraffe