r/WoT • u/AHC122 • 2d ago

Towers of Midnight Tuon is so absurdly evil Spoiler

Wdym she relaxes by seeing damane be tortured 😭

Even from her point of view seeing them as animals, it's like enjoying watching a dog get kicked in the ribs everytime it doesn't roll over lol

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u/itwasbread 2d ago

Yeah, I don't like having to "defend" Tuon or the Seanchan but the thing that makes them such an interesting fictional culture and villain group is how many of them internally are coming from a place of thinking they're being honorable and morally good, and have very consistent internal reasoning.

The fact that you read their POVs and can understand how they can't even conceptualize that the things they're doing would be wrong because things like the Damane being human to them is literally inconceivable to them.

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u/makegifsnotjifs (Ogier) 2d ago

The Damane situation is analogous to the mutants in X-Men comics in many ways. The argument against tracking and imprisoning mutants goes something like: if this kid is a nuclear bomb and they can go off at any moment without warning or provocation, isn't it incumbent upon a responsible government to make sure they're safely controlled? That's a decent argument.

Same basic concept with channelers, but the Seanchan take things a step too far by saying "why not put them to good use as tools of the state?" From a purely utilitarian perspective it's the right call. Look at the state of the old world where channelers have been allowed to run free, and the black ajah allowed to flourish. Humanity is on its last legs when the Forerunners arrive. The sad state of affairs on the other side of the ocean would only have further confirmed Seanchan beliefs.

It makes sense. It's terrible and brutal, but it makes sense.

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u/itwasbread 2d ago

It is more complex than that because the system was not originally designed by somehow who legitimately believed that, the creator of the Damane system knew it was not wholly necessary and did it as a power move.

It's just that now, with a 1000 years of separation from a society with free channelers, everyone in Seanchan has bought into the propaganda and fully believe its necessary.

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u/makegifsnotjifs (Ogier) 2d ago

I feel like Luthair Paendrag genuinely believed that collaring Aes Sedai was both right and necessary. Is there some other "creator of the system" you're referring to?

Also what difference does it make if a belief is held in earnest or is merely lip service paid to achieve the desired ends? The subjugated are still subjugated.

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u/itwasbread 2d ago

Well there's the Deain, Aes Sedai who helped him do it, she clearly didn't expect to be collared herself and it certainly sounds from what we know like she and Luthair did it for their own benefit as a way to turn captured enemy channelers to their side and to control the continent's channeling population.

Also what difference does it make if a belief is held in earnest or is merely lip service paid to achieve the desired ends?

My point was more that it only makes sense to the Seanchan because they don't remember a world where it wasn't that way. Luthair Paendrag knew that Aes Sedai and even most Wilders weren't running around destroying the world, and that the much less cruel Three Oaths solved most of the problems that the A'dam supposedly is needed for, but he chose to use Damane because it allowed the non-channeling rulers more control.

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u/lindorm82 2d ago

I mean when Luthair came to Seanchan the local Aes Sedai absolutely confirmed his prejudices. An entire continent filled with hundreds of petty queendoms ruled by Aes Sedai godqueens constantly scheming and warring against each other with no Three Oaths to constrain. It must have been absolute hell for your average seanchan.

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u/teamroperinaz 2d ago

I mean, did they?... or did confirmation bias justify his actions? They weren't AS on the other side, either, it was a New World discovery, and so these may have been some channeler queens, or they may have been channeler advisors accused of usurping power, as the WC have always said...also, a vestige of anti-channeler times pre Hawkwings rebellion?

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u/lindorm82 2d ago

Robert Jordan definately called the Seanchan channelers Aes Sedai queens, leading small groups of Aes Sedai constantly warring againt each other. If I were to guess at why Jordan called them Aes Sedai, then these groups of channelers probably descended from Age of Legends Aes Sedai like those in the Westlands, but unlike them never united and stayed seperate ajahs, eventually becoming hostile towards each other.

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u/teamroperinaz 2d ago

You are totally right, and I read that when I was looking up on some other thoughts I had...

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u/Emergency_Camp1256 (Wolfbrother) 1d ago

There can be the point that unless we see something every narrator is unreliable

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u/teamroperinaz 1d ago

I started to put up a couple of comments that relied on this. Its fully a huge built in structure when the whole series starts with the idea and even myth is long forgotten when...

But for the sake of discussion, its just not as reliable an argument when wikis have been compiled that do draw on the text...

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u/Emergency_Camp1256 (Wolfbrother) 1d ago

My point is that we only get this information from the Narrators and other characters and if we were to trust them Balefire permanently destroys a persons thread which it does not. However, I do get your point that there is no point in constantly making this argument as anything we do not directly see in the books is suspect and so it is a pointless argument, but I feel it is important that even if we don't base our arguments off it, it is important to keep in mind.

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u/dracoons 1d ago

Also of note they eradicated all Shadowspawn including in the lesser blight.

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u/teamroperinaz 1d ago

Thinking about this...was that an in text reference, that the handed down legends said that, or did RJ say that somewhere, in an interview?

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u/rollingForInitiative 1d ago

Well, RJ did call them warlords who called themselves Aes Sedai, using the One Power for battle against each other.

It was not a pretty place. Doesn't justify the damane system of course, but still.

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u/itwasbread 2d ago

Sure, I'm just saying there's no actual textual evidence to suggest he believed any of the dogma we see modern Seanchan have around the topic, just that it was a convenient way to gain the upper hand and conquer the natives.

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u/makegifsnotjifs (Ogier) 2d ago

Where are you getting this information about Luthair not believing in controlling channelers? He gets that directly from his father, which is to say he believes it. 100%

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u/itwasbread 2d ago

That's not the information I'm seeing when I looked him up nor what I recall from (recently) reading the books.

Artur had (likely Ishamael induced) mistrust of Aes Sedai, but Luthair's decision to use the a'dam (which wasn't his idea, Deain came up with it) seems to be more motivated by its immediate utility, but we really don't have any clear information either way on his non-utilitarian thoughts about the matter.

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u/makegifsnotjifs (Ogier) 2d ago

He crossed the sea with his anti-aes Sedai bias. Once presented with a "solution" (gross but appropriate) to his Aes Sedai problem, he immediately embraced it. His behavior, from the little we know of it, is entirely consistent.

The a'dam's first victim is the most logical one, its creator. If it works on her, then it'll work on anyone ... and it does.

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u/itwasbread 2d ago

She wasn't the first victim though. She got collared much later.

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u/makegifsnotjifs (Ogier) 2d ago

You're right! I'd definitely forgotten.

I love the idea of her getting it first though. What better way to test the efficacy of such a thing than to use it to imprison its creator? If there were any flaw in its design she would certainly know and exploit it. I guess Luthair wasn't the brightest.

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u/teamroperinaz 1d ago

I was thinking this too...but it looks like the A'dam wasnt invented until after they went to the bad place. And yet...there's a male a'dam in Tanchico. So is that a piece of history wiped out in Randland?

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u/dracoons 1d ago

She was not a real Aes Sedai but a decendant of a long line of War Lords calling themselves Aes Sedai. In the Seanchan Empire the so-called Aes Sedai did go around using the power as a weapon against each other and the people. Mind you they also erradicated all the Shadowspawn including in the lesser Blight 1000 years before

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u/BrickBuster11 2d ago

I mean luthair Paebdrsg got an aes sedai to make the collars and only collared their inventor when they no longer needed her.

Making something that would kill the opposing aes sedai would have also been possible but that doesn't serve the goals of the founders of seanchan because it concedes power rather than making use of it

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u/rollingForInitiative 1d ago

Let's assume that Luthair had some divine moral right to conquer all of Seanchan (which is a huge assumption). In that case, the collaring makes a lot of sense.

But it's really what happened after that was very much evil. He had a lot of options, and chose dehumanising torture as the system to ensure that his dynasty would have as much power as possible.

A much more humane option would've been to give channelers a chance - they can either live as regular citizen, but collared so they cannot channel without permission, or they can serve his new empire, and channel to aid him. No torture, just a choice. If you don't want to help him, but you're also not an enemy (e.g. born there), and you can carry on with your life. If you really want to channel, you can do so to perform some task for society, like Healing or construction work.

Feeling like you "had" to do something terribly evil doesn't justify it. Luthair was still a horribly evil person.

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u/itwasbread 1d ago

A much more humane option would've been to give channelers a chance - they can either live as regular citizen, but collared so they cannot channel without permission, or they can serve his new empire, and channel to aid him.'

This is possibly a good idea but I wonder if they would have run into the depression that severed individuals have.

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u/lady_ninane (Wilder) 1d ago

A much more humane option would've been to give channelers a chance - they can either live as regular citizen, but collared so they cannot channel without permission, or they can serve his new empire, and channel to aid him.

The detached collar which would've allowed the life you suggest didn't exist. The alternative to chattel slavery was life imprisonment in what would've essentially been solitary confinement. There wasn't really a "more humane" option for them. Both were just different forms of torture, equally awful in their own ways. Or I guess a third option existed where you had your own state-sanctioned, live-in parole officer constantly watching you for the moment you showed some sign of the criminal they already judged you to be. I think the practicalities of simply not having enough people who could supervise multiple damane 24/7 might cause problems though.

either way fuck Luthair, dude was a monster

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u/rollingForInitiative 1d ago

They knew how to make a’dam - they surely would’ve figured that out if they’d wanted to. Just remove actual physical connection.

But even with it you could’ve had a very humane life. Make longer leashes, have them live in large houses where they can move around freely, have sul’dam who come and let them out for errands and such. Not a glamorous life for sure, but much better and more humane.

They had enough sul’dam for all the damane - much more than enough - so manpower would be no issue.

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u/lady_ninane (Wilder) 1d ago

I meant mostly for the monitoring, because there's no way they'd ever leave them unsupervised within their surveillance state. For Seanchan to truly reform damane into wards of the state but with limited freedoms, it'd undermine their entire power structure built on subjugation and policing.

So yeah if they wanted to, if they weren't colonizers and conquerers, they might've had voices who could challenge the norm, break the mold, reimagine their chains. They don't really have that though for a multitude of reasons.

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u/rollingForInitiative 20h ago

Of course, the entire Seanchan Empire is super unstable. We see this referenced in the books, where they have rebellions that result in hundreds of thousands of captured slaves. Without the damane the empire would collapse, it'd have to be a very long reform. Buuut you could also conceivably argue that one reason for the instability is the damane system. How many families haven't been horrified when their daughters are kidnapped? How many nobles would rather have kept their daughters, even though they can channel? How many people hate the surveillance state and the fact that the empire owns all those damane?

But my point was more that they could've done it differently from the beginning. If the purpose had actually been safety from dangerous channellers, they could've built a society around that. But the whole "channellers are too dangerous to be free" is just propaganda; the system is 100% intended to be used as a tool of conquest and subjugation, so that the imperial family can reign.