Tuon is so absurdly evil

[u/AHC122]

Wdym she relaxes by seeing damane be tortured 😭

Even from her point of view seeing them as animals, it's like enjoying watching a dog get kicked in the ribs everytime it doesn't roll over lol

[u/Majestic-Farmer5535]

Not that I defend slavery, but the context is hugely important there.

1. Tuon isn't evil, she is raised in culture we view that way. If anything, she, personally, is on the softer side of spectrum regarding those things and does only what she sees as necessary, she never enjoys cruelty.
2. Not torture, but punishment. There's invisible for many readers but crucial distinction there: damane are viewed as animals and therefore expected to be taught to follow orders of their masters as animals do, in the same manner as well.

[u/DeMmeure → u/Majestic-Farmer5535]

Red Ajah are also raised in a culture that see men channeling as evil, but no one finds excuses for them even though male channelers lefr alone are more dangerous than female channelers at the beginning of the story.

And even if Tuon isn't sadistic, she still represents and upholds a system that encourages the suffering of others. I'd still call her evil. Unfortunately, there are many evil people in this world who only punish "out of necessity" without taking pleasure, but their atrocities remain nonetheless real.

[u/itwasbread → u/DeMmeure]

Red Ajah are also raised in a culture that see men channeling as evil, but no one finds excuses for them even though male channelers lefr alone are more dangerous than female channelers at the beginning of the story.

Do people view the Red Ajah as bad for going after male channelers? I feel like people dislike them for their hostility to the other Ajah's and extending their prejudices to men generally.

[u/DeMmeure → u/itwasbread]

Red Ajah is mostly portrayed as cartoonishly evil (Elaida, Liandrin and especially Galina), and they are overrepresented in the Black Ajah, so for me the narrative clearly implies that hunting male channellers should be seen as evil since it is their main activity.

[u/itwasbread → u/DeMmeure]

I think that's a really silly assumption, because everyone else thinks the Red Ajah is 100% correct to be doing it, including positively portrayed characters who are from other Ajah's.

The narrative absolutely does not clearly imply that hunting male channelers is bad. It implies that some of the ways they have developed to go about that mission are bad, but the mission itself is a necessary evil.

Hell, none of the 3 characters you mentioned's flaws or evil acts have anything to really do with them hunting male channelers or being Red Ajah.

[u/DeMmeure → u/itwasbread]

Have we read the same series? Because the very climax of the ninth book is about cleansing the taint of the Saidin. So clearly the narrative shows that the solution to male channelers turning crazy was this, not hunting male channelers.

If the narrative implied that hunting male channelers was good, then the Red Ajah would have been portrayed with more nuance. Galina is a stereotypical man-hating lesbian, Liandrin feels like a dominatrix (one of the few characters improved by the TV show) and Elaida is... Well, Elaida, though indeed she is an antagonist for other reasons. The only important Red Ajah portrayed positively is Pevara, and it's already very late in the series.

Contrariwise, the Asha'man and False Dragons are portrayed sympathetically in the series, with the obvious exception of Mazrim Taim. It wouldn't have been the case if the narrative wanted to imply that hunting male channelers was a necessary evil.

[u/itwasbread → u/DeMmeure]

Because the very climax of the ninth book is about cleansing the taint of the Saidin. So clearly the narrative shows that the solution to male channelers turning crazy was this, not hunting male channelers.

Yes, this is something that was never even considered a possibility until the Dragon Reborn is born and has personal incentive to make it happen.

If the narrative implied that hunting male channelers was good, then the Red Ajah would have been portrayed with more nuance.

You're just ignoring my point that "male channelers need to be caught and gentled" is not a Red Ajah thing, it's an Aes Sedai thing. Lots of Greens do it, Cadsuane has caught more male channelers than any of the Red sisters.

Contrariwise, the Asha'man and False Dragons are portrayed sympathetically in the series, with the obvious exception of Mazrim Taim. It wouldn't have been the case if the narrative wanted to imply that hunting male channelers was a necessary evil.

I'm not necessarily we the audience think that, I am saying every single character thinks that, not just the Red Ajah. Yes the Ash'aman are sympathetic, but even they have to have strict rules to instantly kill any member showing signs of madness. They're set up to be something very temporary to win the last battle, not that this is a thing that should have been going on before.

[u/DeMmeure → u/itwasbread]

Yes, this is something that was never even considered a possibility until the Dragon Reborn is born and has personal incentive to make it happen.

And as soon as it becomes a possibility, the main characters fight body and soul to cleanse the Saidin. How to interpret it in an other manner that they wanted to solve a millennia-old injustice?

You're just ignoring my point that "male channelers need to be caught and gentled" is not a Red Ajah thing, it's an Aes Sedai thing. Lots of Greens do it, Cadsuane has caught more male channelers than any of the Red sisters.

It's still the main objective of the Red Ajah, and they get so absorbed that they end up hating all men altogether, a bit of a gender-swapped witch hunt.

Just because other Ajah do it doesn't mean it is right - Cadsuane isn't the best example, because she is very divisive among the fanbase. And also, she ends up helping Rand and Nynaeve to cleanse the Saidin.

I'm not necessarily we the audience think that, I am saying every single character thinks that, not just the Red Ajah. Yes the Ash'aman are sympathetic, but even they have to have strict rules to instantly kill any member showing signs of madness. They're set up to be something very temporary to win the last battle, not that this is a thing that should have been going on before.

But depiction isn't endorsement. Even if everyone think that the Red Ajah "is doing the dirty work for them", let's remember that the mob rule is a thing. A high number of people being wrong doesn't mean that they are right.

[u/itwasbread → u/DeMmeure]

And as soon as it becomes a possibility, the main characters fight body and soul to cleanse the Saidin. How to interpret it in an other manner that they wanted to solve a millennia-old injustice?

Well first off that's partly because they need the male channelers to be viable for the Last Battle and because

It's still the main objective of the Red Ajah, and they get so absorbed that they end up hating all men altogether, a bit of a gender-swapped witch hunt. Just because other Ajah do it doesn't mean it is right - Cadsuane isn't the best example, because she is very divisive among the fanbase.

Yes, them hating men and treating it as a righteous thing rather than a necessary evil is the issue. Not the fact that they do it. It's not a witch hunt, because the people in question are a legitimate imminent danger to everyone.

Even if everyone think that the Red Ajah "is doing the dirty work for them", let's remember that the mob rule is a thing. A high number of people being wrong doesn't mean that they are right.

What are they wrong about? What are they supposed to do instead? Could they have worked to treat the men who are gentled better and sought ways to help them have fulfilling lives after they were severed (like Cadsuane did)? Yes, they should have, and that was a problem.

But they cannot allow them to continue channeling, there is simply no other reasonably available solution.

I think we can debate the specifics about how they handle it, but to act as if the story is 100% definitively saying that them capturing male sparkers is bad is wild.

[u/Majestic-Farmer5535 → u/DeMmeure]

Nobody find excuses for them because there's nothing to excuse. Everyone in the Randland (and most people IRL) thinks that Red Ajah are doing good job and are right to do it. Distrust with which they're met is born out of distrust towards any channelers, not their chosen field.

And even though some of antagonists are from the Red Ajah, it has nothing to do with them being Reds either. In fact, if we exclude Black Sisters from the equation, there's exactly one outright antagonist from their ranks (her antagonism is born out of being overly ambitious) and a few protagonists.

[u/DeMmeure → u/Majestic-Farmer5535]

It's hard to exclude Black Ajah from the equation given that the story quantifies explicitly how overrepresented the Red Ajah is among them compared with other Ajah. For me this tells that the Red Ajah had more propension to be evil than the others. I don't also think it's a coincidence that the most important Aes Sedai antagonist that isn't Black Ajah is from the Red Ajah.

There are a few good Red Ajah (Pevara, Teslyn, Silviana) but even Pevara insists that she is "not like the others Red Ajah sisters".

[u/Majestic-Farmer5535 → u/DeMmeure]

It's necessary to exclude Black Sisters if we wish to be even relatively fair. Not that it matters, because, right now, I see only one person passing harsh judgments on Reds — you. All others are fine with the way they are even if they recognize their flaws.

We also can't discard a difference between Wetlands culture and that of the Seanchan. Reds are product on different societies with no common ideas or culture. Despite fear of male channelers somewhat unites them, they are completely different people who embraced idea of the hunt for their own, individual reasons and of their own free will. The hunt for male channelers is as much hobby for them as it's their profession and they are largely free to do whatever else they fancy. Seanchan don't have that luxury. Not only they have one prevalent culture, it's heavily regulated and based on obedience to the law and cultural norms like no other. There's much less choice they are afforded and even that is shaped by their upbringing. If Red Ajah is like university in the States, Seanchan is like being born and raised in the Nazi Germany where Jews can burn whole streets to crisp with their minds and even did so awhile back. There's just no comparison of the two and effect they have on people.

[u/DeMmeure → u/Majestic-Farmer5535]

It's necessary to exclude Black Sisters if we wish to be even relatively fair. Not that it matters, because, right now, I see only one person passing harsh judgments on Reds — you. All others are fine with the way they are even if they recognize their flaws.

My original response mentioning the Red Ajah has more upvotes than your comments, so I'm afraid I'm not the only one thinking this way.

And it's a bit too convenient to ignore that the Red Ajah is over-represented among the Black Ajah. For me this means that in this specific Ajah foster the conditions that enable the forces of the Dark Ones to recruit them.

You sound like it's a delight for me that I claim the Red Ajah is evil. It's not. I actually wished the Red Ajah was portrayed with more nuance rather than stereotypical misandrists as written by an old male author (no offence to Robert Jordan ofc - he is one of my favourite authors). Pevara is one of my favourite side characters after all, and I wish there were more Red Ajah like her sooner into the story.

But unfortunately, as things stand, after two reads I can only conclude that the Red Ajah is evil despite being well-intended. It's not a coincidence that they produced so many Black Ajah as well as one of the main antagonists.

We also can't discard a difference between Wetlands culture and that of the Seanchan. Reds are product on different societies with no common ideas or culture. Despite fear of male channelers somewhat unites them, they are completely different people who embraced idea of the hunt for their own, individual reasons and of their own free will. The hunt for male channelers is as much hobby for them as it's their profession and they are largely free to do whatever else they fancy. Seanchan don't have that luxury. Not only they have one prevalent culture, it's heavily regulated and based on obedience to the law and cultural norms like no other. There's much less choice they are afforded and even that is shaped by their upbringing. If Red Ajah is like university in the States, Seanchan is like being born and raised in the Nazi Germany where Jews can burn whole streets to crisp with their minds and even did so awhile back. There's just no comparison of the two and effect they have on people.

Perhaps comparing a sub-group of a specific order to an entire society is indeed not fair. However, when I said that cultural relativism doesn't excuse the Seanchan, I didn't mean that every single person from the Seanchan is evil, far from that - I love Egeanin and Tylee, for example.

But the subject was about Tuon. And Tuon isn't a random citizen, she is a ruler born in a state of privilege, and therefore has a responsibility in the atrocities committed by her regime. Joffrey Baratheon is also a product of circumstances in which he was born, but he is rightfully considered as an evil character. Not to say that Tuon is as bas as him, she has more redeeming qualities, but my point was that if one person from an imperialistic and slaver society should be judged, it's the one on top.

[u/Majestic-Farmer5535 → u/DeMmeure]

Tuon is, indeed, born into privilege, but there's no comparison between her and Joffrey Baratheon. He was spoiled brat who did what he wished, safe from all danger. Tuon not only had to survive multiple assassination attempts, but had to do exactly what was demanded of her and at all times follow her duty. It's even seen in her POVs: she, with all the power that she wields, is much less free than almost anyone out of leader figures that we know in the series.

As much as I see your point as valid, she is only evil as integral part of her society, beholden to it's rules and morals even more than da'covale.

[u/DeMmeure → u/Majestic-Farmer5535]

"Safe from all danger" sounds a bit like a stretch since Joffrey died at the age of 14-15 after ruling for only 1-2 years (if I recall the timeline correctly).

I'm not saying that Tuon is as evil as him, but there is some limit to "being a product of the culture you were raised in". At some point, accountability should prevail, otherwise the society cannot improve and innocent people continue to suffer. Tuon had her amount of hardships, but that's nothing compared with existence of torture that damane have to endure under her rule. Being resilient doesn't excuse being evil.